I just feel like crying

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

ETA: Never mind. This isn't worth a passing post about. It deserves more and I don't have the emotional energy to invest right now.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

Yes, I do believe that racism and racial profiling exist.

 

Edited to remove another part of post because of misunderstanding.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

So, let me get this straight....

 

If my daughter goes to college, gets her degree, starts her career...then turns 30 and realizes that she has not met a man or woman she wants to partner with for the rest of her life...decides that since she has the means necessary to provide for a child and the bio clock is ticking that she is going to head to the sperm bank or single-parent adopt....

 

That she is incapable of teaching children decency, integrity, and a strong sense of right and wrong just because she isn't married?

 

 

Wait... what? I've followed your point in the conversation til here. How did you read THAT from the excerpt you posted?

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

I thought you were implying that those situations caused a lack of the things listed. This is what I get for doing 3 things at once. Sorry I misunderstood. :)

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I think this discussion has devolved from the original point.

 

When did the US become a country where it's ok for political leaders to commit acts such as adultery and then expect that they can either lie to the public or expect forgiveness. Why can the American people no longer hold certain values (in this case "family values") and expect their leaders to live up to them? Why do we excuse them when we wouldn't excuse or family or friends?

 

You may toss Jefferson, FDR, JFK, and the rest around all you like but since their actions were not actually known to the public (rather only a select few) at the time it would be hard to judge. Clinton might be a better case study.

 

Isn't this one of those end of the culture markers (as in the fall of Ancient Rome)-when the elite flaunt their disregard for the values the people hold?

 

I can't climb inside the Edwards marriage, maybe she already knew, maybe they have worked through this to their own satisfaction, but she shouldn't have to deal with her health problems and the media attention at the same time and neither should their kids. The cynic in me says that he wouldn't bother to care about such a problem if he's the type of guy to have the affair in the first place. But he should care about the difficulties this causes his family.

[TravelingChris]

Most black criminals have black victims. Almost all crime involves same race victims and criminals. In the US, if it is a cross-racial crime, it is much more likely to be a black criminal and a white victim.

 

In criminological studies on sentencing, the only possible discriminatory factor is the race of the victim but that was hard to factor out because in crime, race and poverty are closely related. If the victim was black, the sentence tended to be a bit more lenient. That actually led to more lenient sentences in general for black criminals since the black victims were almost always victimized by black criminals.

 

(In my previous life, I was a Phd student in Criminal Justice)

[Kelli in TN]

Sorry, but I do not believe that my friend's child, who is living in a 250k home, and going to one of the best private schools in my state (making good grades too) is going to have it harder than the two parent family down the street, who can barely pay their bills because mom refuses to work- 'cause it's against their "family values". As a matter of fact, their kids already have issues at very young ages.

.

 

Hey! Are you my neighbor? Do we know each other? Because I am the mom in that second family in your example!!

 

Yes, that's me. We are scraping by every month, we have turned off our cable, canceled our gym membership, turned off the landline, shop at Goodwill, all because I refuse to work based on our "family values".

 

And one of my kids does have huge issues with having had to grow up, and currently be a college student, from a lower-middle income household. Bless her heart. Just last night she was weeping because she can't figure out how to pay her share of recruitment week expenses in her soriority.

 

Many, many families make the choice to sacrifice to keep a parent home full time. Those of us who do, feel strongly that it is the right thing to do based on family values. I am not sure how that could really cause children to "have issues".

[pqr]

Jedi,

 

You are right this has become tedious and there is no way to persuade you as you refuse to accept anything that does not adhere to your views. You will not answer questions and you dodge points made that refute your ideas. I assume you were never in a debating club. Anyway I need to respond once more to your charges as they can not stand without challenge.

 

.

Also when they talk about these "family values" it is often to trample on the rights of others- mainly gays and lesbians.

 

Supporting traditional values is not trampling on the rights of others. It is working to ensure that our children learn honesty, patriotism, loyalty, and responsibility and yes obtain a moral compass. In essence I want my children to have a sense of honor. As you apparently fail to understand my values please do not accuse me of trampling on the rights of others. It really is below you.

 

Sorry, but I do not believe that my friend's child, who is living in a 250k home, and going to one of the best private schools in my state (making good grades too) is going to have it harder than the two parent family down the street, who can barely pay their bills because mom refuses to work- 'cause it's against their "family values". As a matter of fact, their kids already have issues at very young ages.

 

 

Some of our most vile criminals have come out of wealth. It is not the money but a loving environment that nurtures good and valuable citizens. Money has nothing to do with character, having a Mother and a Father in the home often does!

 

If you do a little research, you will see that money and level of education negates your little studies there. (Nelson, 1993, I believe, is a good place to start) You do realize that I can find you stats to support pants being hazardous to your health, right? It's all still a matter of opinion. I do respect yours. No, I was not wrong about the crime rate, according to the Dept. of Justice it is on a steady decline.

 

 

My little studies?? Some of the facts are straight off the FBI web page. Hardly little studies.

 

Regarding crime, what part of a 100+ % increase since 1960 do you not understand? You are wrong, admit it.

 

 

As for my daughter's sex life, that's none of your business.

 

Finally you are right!! Your daughter's sex life is none of my business, but why then did you introduce it into the discussion in the first place. Nothing could induce me to make my daughters sex life a topic of public discussion, but then again you and I have very different views of what is appropraite.

 

I take it you don't know many well-off, well-educated single parents. Many of the ones I know volunteer at the church and other organizations to help impoverished families- families with both one and two parents whose children are going to have a harder time.

 

 

I know all too many, many of whom are genuinely good people, but this has nothing to do with the topic.

 

This has been a fun discussion, but please let us just agree to disagree here. I will never take on your "family values" and I do not expect you to adopt mine. That's the beauty of America. We have laws to protect us from physical harm and to protect our property, but no one gets to dictate what is "moral" and what isn't. That's why it is so ridiculous for anyone to tout "family values" from the podium.

 

It has been somewhat fun, and no I will never adopt what you term as values. I believe in a moral compass and you seem to want people who are totally devoid of any one that I would recognize......sad.

 

Any way I wish you all the best (I do mean that, disagreeing does not require animosity) and I trully do hope that your daughter's friend defies the odds.

 

Sincerely pqr

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

I can have a discussion of these issues elsewhere on the net in a more liberal atmosphere. I am sorry if I offended. I am not wrong, however neither are you, pqr. We just see things differently. IMO, that is something to be celebrated.

 

To bring things back to the point I'll make one more statement.... the fact that John and Elizabeth Edwards have been able to work through their issues is, IMHO, what having a strong marriage is all about.

[pqr]

 

To bring things back to the point I'll make one more statement.... the fact that John and Elizabeth Edwards have been able to work through their issues is, IMHO, what having a strong marriage is all about.

 

As long as he is honest in this, not simply looking for the political angle we will agree.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

As long as he is honest in this, not simply looking for the political angle we will agree.

 

I knew that we could! :)

[Scarlett]

I knew that we could! :)

 

I am all for showing grace to humans who make mistakes--big mistakes or little mistakes. I think how *I* would feel if I had done something like JE has admitted to and then I think, 'well good for him for fessing up to his wife'.

 

That is what I thought when I first heard the news Friday night. Now it is all over the net that this baby is almost certainly his. I hope it isn't. I really do. Because if he and the OW have concocted this elaborate cover up...and if Andrew Young (who is married to someone else with whom he has children) is some sort of fall guy for JE...then that is just all sickening. I don't know why he would confess the affair but not the child. The child is a human being that will not 'go away'. If the child is his, it is also the sibling of EE's children. How can the OW go along with this? To lie from the start in a very public way about the paternity of her child?

 

And as I often tell myself...when something doesn't make sense...follow the money. Seems Andrew Young and his wife and children are living WITH the OW and her child in a 4-5 million dollar mansion in CA. How likely is it that AY is the father of that child and they are all just living together so nicely? How much more likely is it that they are all in it together for the money being paid to them under the radar. Well, it WAS under the radar...now I think it is all over for all of them. What a bunch of liars.

 

ETA: I'm quote challenged. I meant to quote the part about him being 'honest' and not spinning this to his benefit.

[dangermom]

Yes, McCain messed around on his first wife. Gingrich had blatant affairs. There are a lot of dogs in politics on both sides. But this thread is about one particular dog who tried to get elected on his image as a dedicated family man. While I am not a McCain fan at all, he at least has not pretended to be otherwise than he is. Or was, anyway.

 

People here haven't really been saying whether they're inclined to vote for McCain or not. As far as I can tell a good number of these posts are from folks who lean Democrat.

[Vida Winter]

I am all for showing grace to humans who make mistakes--big mistakes or little mistakes. I think how *I* would feel if I had done something like JE has admitted to and then I think, 'well good for him for fessing up to his wife'.

 

That is what I thought when I first heard the news Friday night. Now it is all over the net that this baby is almost certainly his. I hope it isn't. I really do. Because if he and the OW have concocted this elaborate cover up...and if Andrew Young (who is married to someone else with whom he has children) is some sort of fall guy for JE...then that is just all sickening. I don't know why he would confess the affair but not the child. The child is a human being that will not 'go away'. If the child is his, it is also the sibling of EE's children. How can the OW go along with this? To lie from the start in a very public way about the paternity of her child?

 

And as I often tell myself...when something doesn't make sense...follow the money. Seems Andrew Young and his wife and children are living WITH the OW and her child in a 4-5 million dollar mansion in CA. How likely is it that AY is the father of that child and they are all just living together so nicely? How much more likely is it that they are all in it together for the money being paid to them under the radar. Well, it WAS under the radar...now I think it is all over for all of them. What a bunch of liars.

 

ETA: I'm quote challenged. I meant to quote the part about him being 'honest' and not spinning this to his benefit.

 

That does sound awfully fishy. I don't know how they expected to keep this all a secret. The OW is refusing to participate in any type of paternity test, apparently, that is why JE is able to say that he will participate, how convenient. It will all eventually come out but I think JE wants to hold off until after the Dem. convention so he is not the center of attention - but he probably will be anyway.

 

This is nasty business, covering things up. The baby is likely his, poor child to be surrounded by this political mess. I wonder how much campaign money has been used to keep it under wraps and pay for that California mansion.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Yes, McCain messed around on his first wife. Gingrich had blatant affairs. There are a lot of dogs in politics on both sides. But this thread is about one particular dog who tried to get elected on his image as a dedicated family man. While I am not a McCain fan at all, he at least has not pretended to be otherwise than he is. Or was, anyway.

 

People here haven't really been saying whether they're inclined to vote for McCain or not. As far as I can tell a good number of these posts are from folks who lean Democrat.

 

Who were you answering, dangermom?

 

I thought we were discussing. Were we supposed to only talk about Edwards? Am I missing something?

 

ETA: Ok, looking at this threaded, I see you were answering Dot.