Please Help! First year at home and having problems...MM and WWE

[MaeFlowers]

My ds has always gone to public school. I finally convinced dh to let me home school and we began 3rd grade last week. I am having problems in two subjects.

First, Math. I chose math mammoth and it seems to be confusing him. He has always done well in math but the MM mental math process completely throws him. If I were to tell him what is 593+8, he would say 601 but with the MM process, he just does not get what is going on. It often times seems to make things way more complicated than they need to be. We are both pulling our hair out. I am thinking about skipping her method and just letting him do the math the way he already knows how to do it. Will this hurt him in the long run with MM or would it be better to change math curriculum?

 

Second, WWE and retention. I started him with WWE2 because I knew his writing skills were lacking. However, the problem is that he cannot answer the comprehension questions at the end of the passage. He has to read the story three times. (It is going the same way in his reading for history). If he only reads the story once, he can maybe (and that is a strong maybe) answer one question right. I have tried reading to him and having him read the material himself. Can anyone tell me what is going on here? Why can he not retain any of the information long enough the answer the simple questions?

 

Any advice would be appreciated. I did not expect things to be perfect, but this has brought me to tears more than once and I am not much of a crier. Thank you in advance.

 

 

[Arboreal TJ]

Check out www.educationunboxed.com for help with mental math. IMHO it is worth the effort to learn good mental math strategies.

 

Hopefully the gurus will chime in on your WWE question.

[fraidycat]

I had/have the same struggle with my DD with both of those currics! She is also a product of PS education for the first few years. I chalked it up to being spoon-fed in school (math) and not learning HOW to listen for WWE. I actually backed her up in math so we could lay a stronger foundation, and worked on listening skills. Sometimes I would tell her the questions ahead of the reading so that she knew what to listen for, but she still had to listen to the whole thing to make sure she didn't miss the "important" parts.

 

Another listening/reading skill we work on is visualization. As in, don't just listen to the words, but draw the picture in your head or try to picture it like a t.v. show, playing on a "screen" in your mind. Sometimes we don't ask the questions, sometimes I ask her to describe the "t.v. show" back to me - how she visualized it. Or, I'll have her actually draw a picture of a couple sentences.

 

ETA: one other good "listening skill" device is whispering. They have focus to hear you... :)

[JudoMom]

Give it time.  Walk him through it.  Have you listened to SWB's Writing lecture for elementary?  If he doesn't know the answer, reread the important part of the passage age.  This is a new thing for both of you; I'm sure this isn't how he was taught at school.  FWIW, we've been doing this from the beginning, and there are still days I have to reread the passage.  It's a skill he'll develop; it won't come instantly.

For math, is there a reason he has to do it the MM way?  It sounds like he can do it...I would just go with it.  Keep an eye out for things he doesn't actually understand, but if he understands and just does it a different way, then go with it.

Don't be too hard on yourself.

[jessj]

For math, is there a reason he has to do it the MM way?  It sounds like he can do it...I would just go with it.  Keep an eye out for things he doesn't actually understand, but if he understands and just does it a different way, then go with it.

 

Don't be too hard on yourself.

 

Definitely that. Understanding why he does it a certain way is key.  The way most American public schools teach math is not the way that most homeschool (or any other system outside the US!) math is written, in my experience.  It will take some time to get used to doing things a new way.  But it's only 3rd grade!  He's young and has plenty of time to make the switch.  Don't be overly concerned about plowing through chapters, or getting 100% on each assignment.  Focus on learning the material, the methods.  Speed and accuracy will come after that. 

 

And as for the reading comprehension... it will come.  It is a skill to recall what you have read or been read.  It is one that most public schools don't work on.  It is not surprising to me in the least that it's an area he is weak in.  Try to relax.  It's going to be ok.  Slow down, keep at it.  He'll get there! 

 

These issues are manageable.  You are just getting started.  You are only on week 2.  It will be fine.  It's way too soon to be worried.  Every child has areas where they are weak and where they are strong.  We also each have different brains that think about things differently.  What makes sense to one, doesn't necessarily make any sense to another.  It doesn't mean you aren't doing a good job or that there is anything wrong with them, or that your curriculum is wrong.  It is simply a reflection of the fact that we're all complex beings.  You are also making a transition between two very different methods of schooling.  There will be hiccups.  It's ok.  You have found an area where both his and your thinking are different from the person who wrote the curriculum.  That's ok.  It's not necessarily right or wrong.  And, you are finding the areas in which the public school has left him weak.  That's good, because now you can work on them.  Hang in there! 

[Um_2_4]

My friend who brought a 7th grader home had similar issues with comprehension and recall. He was so used to being spoon feed. And she was using an online academy, so same type of curriculum, just more independent study. 

Maybe a highlighter while he is reading the passage? Or you read to him and stop every once in a while and ask a question? Just keep trying to go for longer between stops till he can do the whole passage.

I have one friend who is probably going to supplement with the WWE/WWS series for her kids because this is just not a skill really taught in public schools.

 

I don't think you need to toss the whole curriculum, just adjust.

[Farrar]

I think the phenomenon you're describing is one of the top two reasons that MM isn't for everyone (the other one being that the pages are crowded, intimidating to some, and not exciting to others).  I really love MM.  I think the way it walks kids through different ways to problem solve and think about number relationships is great.  BUT...  for some kids, adding that extra step that MM often adds in order to explicitly teach and scaffold that understanding is just confusing.  I think you have a couple of options - first, I hit this occasionally with my ds who uses MM.  It doesn't mean that MM isn't right for him, just that we need to fast track through that particular section.  Because most of the time, the little steps help him, just occasionally they get him turned around or he gets it more quickly and finds the helper steps annoying.  Second, find a different program.  It's okay to make changes.

 

As for WWE and retention...  We don't use WWE, but struggled with this for a long time.  It took us a lot of narration and patience to get to where my kids can answer.  I learned that sometimes they need to read for themselves and sometimes they needed to hear me read it aloud, sometimes they need more scaffolding from me and that it's fine to build them up by slowly asking fewer and fewer helping questions and giving fewer and fewer hints.  Also, I learned that my kids think better with the paper in front of them writing than orally.  But one of the reasons I don't personally like WWE is that I find the comprehension and narration pieces stilted and formal and we have had more success with a more open-ended CM style attitude toward narration.  So instead of tell me these particular things, it's more, tell me three things you remember, even if they're random, less important details.  And we'll build from there.  But again, like the MM, you may need to tweak some things and give it time.  Or it's okay to jump ship and find a different program that's right for you.

[umsami]

Growing up, I never learned any mental math strategies. I don't know if it wasn't commonly taught back then (70s and early 80s) or what not.  Still, I was always very good at math...did well in Calculus.... SATs....etc.

 

Having taught math to my kids over the past few years, it's amazing how much I have learned/enjoyed from the mental math aspect.  IMHO, it's not 100% necessary, but makes life (and understanding) better.

 

It might make sense to go back a grade level (if you bought a package deal)... or even email Maria for help.

 

I think struggling with it for a month or two will be worth it in the long run.  Of course, if it isn't working, you can also switch programs.  I was pleasantly surprised that Math in Focus gave me a 180 day free preview of every level when I signed up.  That really let us explore it, and let my kids explore it too before committing. (I bought used textbooks, and new workbooks).  

[dovrar]

You may want to let him know the questions up front so that he knows what to listen for or ask the relevant questions after each paragraph. 

 

Dd 15 just last year had an "aha" moment with reading comp in regards to science.  I had her bring me her science book and we read a paragraph sentence by sentence and I asked her to pull out the important points for each sentence.  In the past she had had trouble figuring out what the "important" parts of the text were.  She'd always come back to me with trivial information.  UGH!  She also is very independent and didn't want help. 

 

Anyhow, when we read sentence by sentence she said "huh, I was waiting until the end of the section until I tried to see if I understood the information.  It's so much easier doing it this way.

[Alicia64]

I just wanted to share a math program my two boys have loved: Teaching Textbooks. It's fantastic.

 

Also, we switched from WWE (we'd done two years of it) to Brave Writer. Awesome decision.

 

Good luck,

 

Alley

[boscopup]

Those WWE questions are often quite difficult. In fact, after reading the passage out loud to my son, *I* often don't remember some of the details she asks for, and I was the one reading it! :lol:

 

It's completely normal for a child new to WWE to struggle with the questions. The goal is that they be able to answer them by week 36, not by week 2. It's ok to go back to the paragraph or even SENTENCE where the answer is and then ask the question again. I had to do that often in the beginning. I sometimes still have to do it. You are teaching listening skills. Listening for the little details is a lot harder than listening for the main plot. I can tell you though that after doing WWE for a few years, my son has excellent listening skills when it comes to read-alouds and listening to lectures, sermons, etc.

 

As for the Math Mammoth issue... I personally think the mental math is worth learning, though some kids do better learning it after they learn by rote first. I wouldn't automatically assume he's that type of child yet, as you haven't taught him the mental math techniques until now, and he may not see the usefulness YET. They're taught using smaller numbers, but later the numbers get bigger and harder. For example, in 1st grade, you'd learn that 8+5 = 8+2+3=10+3=13. Of course, your child probably knows that math fact already, so he's clueless as to how that is at all helpful. But later on, when he has 238+5 to add in his head, he'd know that that's 238+2+3=240+3=243. It's teaching you to break numbers apart in different ways to make mental math easier. Now if he has a method to do the problem mentally, by all means, let him use it! Sometimes my son had a better technique than what the book was teaching. I praised him for his ingenuity. :D Whenever we did a mental math problem, we'd discuss the ways we could do it. I'd tell him how I did it, ask him how he did it (it helped for me to model how to tell, because often they don't really know how they do it - they just have an answer out of thin air), then say how the book did it. Sometimes, we then had 3 different methods! That's ok. The point is to have different tools in the toolbox so that you know how to use them when you need them.

 

I do recommend using EducationUnboxed videos if he's never had mental math instruction before. There is a whole section there titled "Mental Math".

[MaeFlowers]

Thank you everyone for your responses and encouragement. I just could not figure out what I was doing wrong and I was getting so frustrated!

I have thought about MM quite a bit today and think there are two problems, the main one being me. Although I use mental math myself (just from years of doing math), MM mental math is different and sometimes I just do not like it or understand the purpose of it. I have always been pretty good at math and, to me, it's pretty simple. Sometimes I look at MM and think, "Why is she making something so simple, so complicated?" I think that makes it hard to teach. Second, I think ds already has his way of doing things and it is a complete shift in thought process. He has always done well in math so I hate to move him back a year. I think we are going to try to skip some of her ways and use others. Hopefully, this will work.

As for WWE, I don't want to ditch it. I think you are all right in that he just has never had the experience and it will come with time. I think I will try your suggestions...all of them probably!

 

Thanks again. I really, really needed encouragment today. It has just been one of those days from start to finish.

 

Stephanie

[fourisenough]

Please hang in there! I would guess both the mental math and discussion questions are stretching him beyond anything he has done in school. Rather than getting frustrated, try to approach it in a playful way. Both are such foundational skills; they are worth the struggle. You've gotten some good advice above. Just wanted to chime in to encourage you to stick with both MM and WWE for a bit longer. They're good programs.

[MaeFlowers]

For example, in 1st grade, you'd learn that 8+5 = 8+2+3=10+3=13.

 

This is what I do not get. You are taking something so simple (8+5) and making it so complicated. I see the argument behind why it might be useful. But if I show this to ds, I get deer in headlights. However, if I show him 438+5, then say, since you know 8+5= (he answers 13), than, he automatically answers 443. That's why I think it might be better to skip some parts of MM to make it work for us.

[boscopup]

This is what I do not get. You are taking something so simple (8+5) and making it so complicated. I see the argument behind why it might be useful. But if I show this to ds, I get deer in headlights. However, if I show him 438+5, then say, since you know 8+5= (he answers 13), than, he automatically answers 443. That's why I think it might be better to skip some parts of MM to make it work for us.

And that's a perfectly valid way to do it. 438+5=430+8+5=430+13=443.

 

It's useful to be comfortable taking various numbers apart, because as you get to different problems, some techniques will be easier than others. And sometimes, there will be 3 different techniques that are all equally efficient. :D

[Garga]

I love SWB and I love SOTW. But we all haaaaated WWE. It was a very bad fit for us. To help kiddos along, when we did dictation in WWE4 (I think it was 4), I let them read the sentence multiple times and then all of us (myself included) tried to remember the passage and write it from memory. None of us could remember it and we were all miserable.

 

I don't know about MM, but WWE was a big fail for us.

 

You might simply need to shop around for a different writing program.

[RootAnn]

It is perfectly fine to reread the sentence that has the answer to the question you are asking after reading the whole selection one time through. After awhile (a couple of weeks), go back & read the paragraph that has the answer in it instead of just the one sentence. Eventually, they'll be able to pull out most of the answers without having to reread. It is a skill that needs to be learned if you are going to use WWE. Those who started with WWE1 already have practice!

 

Good luck!

[MotherOfBoys]

I had a comprehension problem till third grade. Then I had a hearing test. That got us on the right path. Also, the pp about a sentence or two at a time and then asking what was just said, is a good option. After the tubes in my ears and my mom got me caught up in a few months by doing this approach at home. PS  wanted to stick me in a special reading class till I rotted. I had to ask to get out of it because they had no intentions of letting me go back.

 

The problem with MM that you mentioned: I see it as a base step to FOIL in the next grade. you have to be comfortable with taking apart problems. I might move quickly through it but explain that step is a tiny building block that some kids benefit from.

 

I agree that 2 weeks usually isn't enough of a trial. He's still getting used to not being in PS. Applause to you that these are the only major problems!!!!! Your boy is doing great!!!

[Trish]

Just addressing the "first year at home" thing -- expect the first few months to be bumpy. You will feel like giving up at least 6 times before Thanksgiving! That's normal, you'll get past it and then look back and be amazed at how far you've come. Also if it was hard to convince DH to have your DS try homeschooling, you might want to take a deep breath and just relax before voicing too many complaints about how things are going. He might take that as a sign that it was the wrong decision, but really it's just normal at this stage. Looking back on it, I remember how difficult it was at first, but I TRULY cannot remember *exactly* what the bumps were!

 

:grouphug: