GSD having MAJOR boarding issues

[AimeeM]

We've had to board our GSD (Luke) twice in the past couple months (once for a week long trip to philly to visit family, and then again for a two day stint for a family wedding out of town). These past two times, he's had to be sedated, has bit someone, etc.

 

He does FINE with the techs until he hears the other dogs in the kennel area - he becomes very, very nervous around large groups of other big dogs (he's far more comfortable with small dogs, I imagine because we have a 10 lb Italian Greyhound at home who is his constant companion). The first time he bit, I'm going to say (and I know it may be popular) that it was the fault of the tech - who was reminded time and time again, NOT to take his muzzle off until he was in his private kennel and had calmed down; she decided that since he seemed "fine" on the walk back, she would take off the muzzle early... and what we knew would happen did happen - as soon as he heard/saw the other dogs, he went nuts and that included nipping the person holding his leash and keeping him. THIS most recent time, he didn't bite anyone, but he did try to jump up on anybody who came in the kennel, and tried to tear through his kennel (incurring cuts inside his mouth, on his tongue, his nose, etc).

 

I went to pick him up today from the boarder (an animal hospital) and he became so agitated when he saw me with a muzzle and leash (the muzzle because I knew he would be agitated walking through the kennel) that he jumped ME - I had to leave the kennel area; they got him outside in a gated area and I tried to calm him from outside the gate. He listened to his commands very well (sit, stay, "fine"), but the minute anyone approached with him with a leash, he went NUTS again.

 

We had to sedate him (with a shot) to bring him home. This is getting pricey, lol. First, the cost to board him, since he's listed as an aggressive dog, is more; add in sedation and the random grooming (which, again, he must be sedated for), etc and the cost is getting more and more as he gets worse and worse with boarding.

 

While the past two times have been the worst boarding experiences, he's always hated it - even after he's home, he is agitated, depressed, etc.

 

It doesn't help that there is NOONE at the boarder who isn't terrified of him and doesn't avoid him at all costs (when, frankly, he does GREAT with people and even the techs outside of the kennel, like when he's in the outdoor walking/play area one-on-one).

 

This is NOT indicative of his normal "at home" behaviour - at home he is the most *chill*, relaxed dog... he is a loyal, gentle companion for our children. He is trained to protect us, but he loves the neighbors and is loved by them.

 

When I spoke to a vet tech, she said that since this is more phobia than behaviour, it may just be innate and there may be nothing we can do. Is that true?! The actual vet suggested a behavorist (sp?) from a university in another state (but that could run THOUSANDS in recurring costs, from what she indicated).

 

I'm at my wit's end. This is mostly just a vent, but advice is welcome. He is completely not himself when he sees that building. To know that these techs are terrified of my dog is heartbreaking - he is NEVER NEVER like that at home (even with confronted with an unknown person - so long as we let him know he's okay and we're okay, he's cool).

[Lacie]

Instead of the cost of boarding and meds, could you pay someone to housesit when you need to leave?

[Miss Peregrine]

Instead of the cost of boarding and meds, could you pay someone to housesit when you need to leave?

This.

[Spryte]

Instead of the cost of boarding and meds, could you pay someone to housesit when you need to leave?

 

Yes, how about a dog walking service?  We didn't opt for a full time house sitter, but we have a local company that comes to do dog care while we are gone.  They walk the dogs, do all the basic house care things, and spend some time just hanging out and playing with the pups.  It's much less stressful for the dogs.  

 

Unless he has separation anxiety, in which case a house sitter might be better, so he's not left alone all night.

[Tree Frog]

I have a similar problem, but lower key and a smaller shepard, so I'm posting mostly to follow along and give you a bump.. I wonder if he couldn't be acclimated to big dogs somehow by first playing one on one with another dog his size then adding more dogs to play with over the course of a year. The kennel part is a little trickier; if I were in a place with all that noise, I wouldn't like it, either! Is there a smaller, maybe quieter, kennel you could walk through with him and then leave with your dog so it's not so terrifying for him? Desensitization is what I'd aim for.

[elegantlion]

I would try to find a housesitter, but make sure that person comes over and gets acclimated to your dog before you leave. 

 

I worked for a vet for 5 years, some pets are just aggressive in the office/boarding environment. My own dog hates being messed with and we have to muzzle her for shots etc.She's a big baby at home. I quit going to one vet because I asked to hold my own dog. I have experience, I know her. They refused and she scratched a helper (not a tech). I apologized, but had warned them that she was holding the dog wrong. Sometimes it's just the dog and really there isn't much you can do about it. Ironically, my dog likes boarding and is an angel when we leave her. Cats are even worse. 

 

I have a number of scars from cats and dogs who were not happy to be at the vet. 

 

If a housesitter isn't an option, always sedate, you be the one to walk your dog back and ask that they be boarded away from other dogs. Really they should have the training to deal with it. Don't be embarassed, although it can get pricey, because really some pets are just that way. If the techs are terrified then the dog will sense that. It's important to operate with prudence and caution around aggressive dogs, but really it's part of the job. 

[Pawz4me]

I would find a pet sitter. You don't necessarily need someone to stay 24/7. Just to come three or four times a day to feed and walk.

[AimeeM]

We would need someone to stay 24/7, not just a walker. Luke gets pretty upset if he's left alone for long periods, so he has to be muzzled if I'm gone for more than a few hours... and it's just mean to leave him muzzled all day and night but the few times a day a walker would/could come.

 

Where would I find someone who could stay overnight? Preferably someone vetted and with references? There is one wonderful tech at the office who used to work for a police dog trainer and she has tons of experience with attack/protection trained GSDs (and genuinely loves them), but she told me that she stopped house/pet sitting when she had her two children :(

 

We do have the option, for longer trips (say, trips where we're gone for a week or more), to take him out of state to stay with his breeder (not really a breeder; he's only bred his one mom and dad GSD twice; he primarily works as a trainer), but he's far enough away that it makes it impossible for shorter 2 or 3 day trips.

[beaners]

Why is he muzzled while you are gone? Aggression or destructive behaviors?  Has he been crate trained and can he be safely crated?

[AimeeM]

Why is he muzzled while you are gone? Aggression or destructive behaviors?  Has he been crate trained and can he be safely crated?

Destructive (we've replaced bamboo blinds at least a half dozen times). Given, I only need to muzzle him when I'm gone for long periods of time (not frequently).

He isn't aggressive AT ALL outside of the boarder's.

He was crate trained as a pup but no, he can't be crated now. He gets too agitated and does what he did in the kennel at the boarders - tries to chew his way out and cuts up his mouth.

[Danestress]

Are you in a remote area? If this happened in my medium sized city, I would start trying to find a trainer who would work with the dog a bit and keep the dog in his/her personal kennel when I away. But I know those options are not available everywhere. And of course it would not be cheap.

 

I would also consider another boarding fasciitity, since your dog has an adversion to this one.

 

I find that dog professionals seem to all know each other. I might talk to someone at a GSD club or rescue. Maybe there is a perfect person out there to kennel/train/love your dog. I hope so!

[Danestress]

Double

[beaners]

You can sometimes find good petsitters at sites like Care.com or from the same companies that provide in-home care for children or for medical needs.

 

I'd also probably try to find a behaviorist to help with his reaction in a crate or boarding, and for the destruction too since that might stem from anxiety also.

[Pawz4me]

Ahhh . . . so in reality he has various types of anxiety.  Despite what you said in your first post ("at home he is the most *chill*, relaxed dog") he really is that relaxed, chilled dog only when someone is home with him.  He has what sounds like rather severe separation anxiety.  That is likely a contributing factor, and maybe a hugely contributing factor, to his boarding issues.

 

To sum things up, you've got a large dog who:

 

(1) has been trained for protection

(2) has severe SA that's manifesting in multiple settings

(3) has crate anxiety/phobia (this often goes along with SA) and

(4) has an established bite history

 

Put it all together and it equals a dog who isn't a do-it-yourself training project.  Nor is it a dog who should be left with anyone who doesn't have extensive experience working with similar dogs.  I would want to check my homeowners insurance coverage before leaving him.  Some policies have "dangerous dog" exclusions.

 

I really think you need to consult a veterinary behaviorist if your regular vet doesn't feel comfortable working with you.  At the very least the dog needs to be on medication for a few months while you work on the SA.  Clomicalm used to be the drug of choice for SA, but I believe more and more vets are now preferring to use a drug called Reconcile.  It may be possible to find a regular vet who will work with you.  Some regular vets are more willing to work with (and more knowledgeable about) behavior issues than others.  But truly, this is sounding less and less like something you can fix yourself.  Sorry . . .

[Jann in TX]

I love my vet but I would NEVER board one of my GSDs there (we have always had at least 2 GSDs).  The enviroment is too busy/yappy... the hold is barely larger than a crate and the noise level is high day and night...

 

We did fine one kennel that was set up for large dogs-- it cost more but was still reasonable considering the situation.  My dogs actually LIKED going there... large private run (inside and outside parts they were free to move between) and they both get to stay together.  Each day they had 'playtime' with a worker --but were never around any other dogs.

 

With our current dogs our male (just 1 yr old) is extremely nervous around adults he does not know.  He would be pathetic in a kennel!  We have to leave him outside (large fenced yard) if we will be gone more than a few minutes.  It works best if I give him a nice meaty bone as I leave...he also has several special 'yard toys' that are extremely durable.  Our female is best inside and is fine for up to 6 hours at a time... she is an excape artist and would jump our 6ft fence in seconds if we left her in the backyard... male stays there just fine.

When we travel we end up getting a pet sitter-- Usually one of my older girls or one of their college student friends.  I stock the fridge and they sleep over.  They can leave for normal periods of time--but need to be here by dark and through the night.

 

Most GSDs do not do well crated.  They need to sleep stretched out... crates are not big enough!  My male is 120 pounds and still growing!  Crates might be fine if you have a smaller GSD...

 

You can try working with a trainer to help alieve some of the separation anxiety from your normal activities... that will probably help with boarding to some degree as well.

 

You might be able to find a dog trainer who boards-- most of the time they only take in 1-2 extra dogs (other than their own).  There is one in our area but they charge $100 per night-- but that includes a few training sessions...

[Catwoman]

Is there any way he can travel with you?

[AimeeM]

Really? I mean, I believe you (definitely), it's just that the vet tech with an established history of working with GSDs said that this is fairly typical (the boarding issues) for the GSDs she's known, who have been trained to protect one family unit (separation issues combined with "other dog anxiety"). She didn't seem to think it was abnormal at all.

He's actually fine with our vet (and does fine at regular vet visits in the exam room with just "people", so I'm fairly certain (and I did speak with her today) that she would work with us. She did mention that some anxiety medications can make him more aggressive with the boarding issue (i.e. she said it would lower his inhibitions, although if he's muzzled at entry, I don't foresee a problem so long as he's sedated.

I'm not entirely sure that he should only be left with someone with extensive experience with GSDs/aggression... he's been left, in our home, with people other than us before (not for super long periods of time)... and he does fine. Maybe his anxiety also/and/or stems from being left alone period (as in, not simply separated from us, but perhaps just separated from people in general?) and from leaving the house (because he does get nervous (and sick) even getting in the car?

If we could sedate him enough, his breeder HAS offered (several times) to take him in for a few weeks to train... I guess I'm just nervous taking him and leaving him out of state for weeks. Will he think we've abandoned him... and if that's what he's anxious about, will he feel like his worst fears have come true? :(

 

Ahhh . . . so in reality he has various types of anxiety.  Despite what you said in your first post ("at home he is the most *chill*, relaxed dog") he really is that relaxed, chilled dog only when someone is home with him.  He has what sounds like rather severe separation anxiety.  That is likely a contributing factor, and maybe a hugely contributing factor, to his boarding issues.

 

To sum things up, you've got a large dog who:

 

(1) has been trained for protection

(2) has severe SA that's manifesting in multiple settings

(3) has crate anxiety/phobia (this often goes along with SA) and

(4) has an established bite history

 

Put it all together and it equals a dog who isn't a do-it-yourself training project.  Nor is it a dog who should be left with anyone who doesn't have extensive experience working with similar dogs.  I would want to check my homeowners insurance coverage before leaving him.  Some policies have "dangerous dog" exclusions.

 

I really think you need to consult a veterinary behaviorist if your regular vet doesn't feel comfortable working with you.  At the very least the dog needs to be on medication for a few months while you work on the SA.  Clomicalm used to be the drug of choice for SA, but I believe more and more vets are now preferring to use a drug called Reconcile.  It may be possible to find a regular vet who will work with you.  Some regular vets are more willing to work with (and more knowledgeable about) behavior issues than others.  But truly, this is sounding less and less like something you can fix yourself.  Sorry . . .

[Pawz4me]

Really? I mean, I believe you (definitely), it's just that the vet tech with an established history of working with GSDs said that this is fairly typical (the boarding issues) for the GSDs she's known, who have been trained to protect one family unit (separation issues combined with "other dog anxiety"). She didn't seem to think it was abnormal at all.

 

There is nothing inherently unique about GSDs.  Sure, all breeds do have their own tendencies and idiosyncracies.  But when it comes to SA and other anxiety issues there's simply nothing that makes a GSD much different from any other breed or mutt.  Did the vet tech know the whole story -- that you have to muzzle the dog at home to prevent him tearing things up?  And that he destroys crates?  All the little details are necessary in order to see the big picture.

 

FWIW, I grew up with GSDs.  My grandparents always had a couple around.  Several of them were protection trained.  None exhibited any of the issues you're describing.

 

 

 

He's actually fine with our vet (and does fine at regular vet visits in the exam room with just "people", so I'm fairly certain (and I did speak with her today) that she would work with us. She did mention that some anxiety medications can make him more aggressive with the boarding issue (i.e. she said it would lower his inhibitions, although if he's muzzled at entry, I don't foresee a problem so long as he's sedated.

 

It's great that your vet is willing to work with you.  I'm not a vet.  My understanding, though, is that yours is absolutely right that some medications can lower bite inhibition.  The problem with saying "although if he's muzzled at entry, I don't foresee a problem so long as he's sedated" is that you're looking at it as if muzzling and sedating are acceptable long-term solutions.  And maybe they are for you.  For me they wouldn't be.  Stable dogs don't need muzzling.  Stable dogs don't need sedating to be boarded (many stable dogs will certainly get stressed by boarding, but not to the point of needing to be sedated)

 

 

 

Maybe his anxiety also/and/or stems from being left alone period (as in, not simply separated from us, but perhaps just separated from people in general?) and from leaving the house (because he does get nervous (and sick) even getting in the car?

 

Yes, his anxiety could be triggered just by being alone, and relieved by having any person with him.  But that's still SA.  The getting sick in the car could be plain old motion sickness.  It's pretty common in dogs.  Or it could be another manifestation of stress/anxiety reaction.

 

 

 

If we could sedate him enough, his breeder HAS offered (several times) to take him in for a few weeks to train... I guess I'm just nervous taking him and leaving him out of state for weeks. Will he think we've abandoned him... and if that's what he's anxious about, will he feel like his worst fears have come true? :(

 

What/How is the breeder going to train him?  What is the goal?  If it's to work on his SA, I don't see training away from you helping that in any way.  It's something that's going to need to be worked on in your home, with your family, and preferably with the help of a vet who will work to get him on a medication that will relieve enough of his anxiety so that he can learn.  That's exactly the point of medicating an SA dog -- to bring the stress level down to the point where their brain can engage in learning/retraining.  A highly stressed dog can't learn.

[beaners]

I'd say severe anxiety and resulting behavior issues are not uncommon in GSDs, but that is a major flaw of the breed in my eyes (with the dogs currently being bred) and does not reduce the severity of the condition in my eyes.  (Just my opinion, of course.)  

 

Honestly, how miserable must it be for the dog?  You've seen the threads here where people have posted about their own anxiety.  Now imagine that in a dog that doesn't have the ability to request help.  I don't like to anthropomorphise, but that can't be a pleasant existence for the dog.   

[Tree Frog]

I only have experience as a dog owner, but I wondered if having another dog to keep him company when you're gone an option? If he's lonely when his people are gone, would he be more comfortable if he had a constant friend/playmate?

[AimeeM]

There is nothing inherently unique about GSDs.  Sure, all breeds do have their own tendencies and idiosyncracies.  But when it comes to SA and other anxiety issues there's simply nothing that makes a GSD much different from any other breed or mutt.  Did the vet tech know the whole story -- that you have to muzzle the dog at home to prevent him tearing things up?  And that he destroys crates?  All the little details are necessary in order to see the big picture.

 

FWIW, I grew up with GSDs.  My grandparents always had a couple around.  Several of them were protection trained.  None exhibited any of the issues you're describing.

 

 

 

 

It's great that your vet is willing to work with you.  I'm not a vet.  My understanding, though, is that yours is absolutely right that some medications can lower bite inhibition.  The problem with saying "although if he's muzzled at entry, I don't foresee a problem so long as he's sedated" is that you're looking at it as if muzzling and sedating are acceptable long-term solutions.  And maybe they are for you.  For me they wouldn't be.  Stable dogs don't need muzzling.  Stable dogs don't need sedating to be boarded (many stable dogs will certainly get stressed by boarding, but not to the point of needing to be sedated)

 

 

 

 

Yes, his anxiety could be triggered just by being alone, and relieved by having any person with him.  But that's still SA.  The getting sick in the car could be plain old motion sickness.  It's pretty common in dogs.  Or it could be another manifestation of stress/anxiety reaction.

 

 

 

 

What/How is the breeder going to train him?  What is the goal?  If it's to work on his SA, I don't see training away from you helping that in any way.  It's something that's going to need to be worked on in your home, with your family, and preferably with the help of a vet who will work to get him on a medication that will relieve enough of his anxiety so that he can learn.  That's exactly the point of medicating an SA dog -- to bring the stress level down to the point where their brain can engage in learning/retraining.  A highly stressed dog can't learn.

I don't think the trainer (that is his primary role; he only bred at request) would or could work on separation anxiety (especially since we would be away... and you're right, that's a huge concern for me), rather, I think he wanted to work on slow exposure to larger groups of dogs (because he frequently houses several while he's training them).

I understand that stable dogs do not need muzzling or sedating, but if this can't be trained out... well, what are the other options? I've had a professional tell me it's possible, I've had another say it isn't. I'm just confused :(

 

Also, I should have been more clear about the crate - we haven't tried one in two years, because of how stressed he gets in the kennel at the boarder (and because he likes to sprawl out). I'm not sure what he would do now. Same gig with the muzzling - we haven't taken the chance after going through almost $500 worth of blinds... it's been over a year since we tried leaving him unmuzzled for more than a few hours.

 

He is 3 years old and fixed, if that makes any difference. The only reason I might say it makes a difference (his age) is because we haven't tried the crate or leaving him unmuzzled since he left "puppyhood/adolescence"... and I only just thought of that, actually. Lol.

 

As for SA and dog aggression/anxiety not being unique to GSDs... I understand that. I stated that the vet tech who had previously worked with a GSD trainer (and the vet herself) said that it isn't uncommon in GSDs that they've seen/boarded.

 

Frankly, I'm concerned with the general atmosphere at the boarder. They're a great hospital, don't get me wrong, but it rubs me the wrong way (and I'm sure it does nothing to soothe Luke), when the first time Luke starts whining and pacing, the manager of the hospital states "great! The one breed I'm terrified of!"... and that's the overall sentiment there. He knows they don't care for him. Do I blame them? No, not at all. He's certainly not been on his best behaviour... but like a child, if nobody makes an effort, no headway is going to be made with him.

 

He has seen a trainer for obedience. He is stellar with basic obedience and commands.

 

Before last month, his issues at the boarder were limited to anxiety, trying to run away... nothing that wasn't able to be handled by my husband personally walking him to his kennel. I'm not sure WHAT has changed... the only thing that has changed in our home life (even semi recently) is the addition of a new babe (but that was a year ago); given, I think last month was maybe the first or second time he'd been boarded since the birth, but we had NO biting incidents before then.

 

I think we're going to look for two things:

1) a new boarding facility.

2) a special trainer/behaviorist.

 

I'm not sure exactly what to look for in a boarder. There aren't any GSD specifics that I can find locally.

[AimeeM]

I only have experience as a dog owner, but I wondered if having another dog to keep him company when you're gone an option? If he's lonely when his people are gone, would he be more comfortable if he had a constant friend/playmate?

He has Bella (Italian Greyhound) - that 10 lb dog is Luke's very best friend (with the exception of our youngest child, lol).

Unfortunately, they seem to be a troublemaking duo... lol.