Flowers for Algernon--appropriate for 8th grade?

[umsami]

This English teacher is not much of a planner.  Believe me.

 

He told me at the beginning of the year that he was excited to be using the short story, that he hadn't known about it before, and that he was going to use it in conjunction with some  other short stories to discuss point of view. 

 

Honestly, I would have preferred to have a discussion about the issue with the other members of the curriculum committee and the teacher rather than simply pulling the book.  But I don't call the shots at the school, so we didn't.

 

 

OK. Fair enough.  Peace.

[umsami]

This English teacher is not much of a planner.  Believe me.

 

He told me at the beginning of the year that he was excited to be using the short story, that he hadn't known about it before, and that he was going to use it in conjunction with some  other short stories to discuss point of view. 

 

Honestly, I would have preferred to have a discussion about the issue with the other members of the curriculum committee and the teacher rather than simply pulling the book.  But I don't call the shots at the school, so we didn't.

 

DP.  OK…so what worries me is not that you raised the issue, it's how quickly the school caved.  Why was there no discussion? Why didn't the English teacher or Head go…"well, I totally understand your concerns, and this is how we've handled that in the past."  or "Yes, I know it can be awkward for teens to discuss this in class, but we've found that having an anonymous online discussion forum works really well…and allows kids to ask some questions that they might not be comfortable with in class." or whatever.  

 

That's what worries me.  Bring up issues, fine.  Say…I'm worried about xyz…but then (hopefully) the teachers/administration should be able to address those concerns, without having to shelf anything. KWIM?

 

So…not really anger at you…but more anger at the administration as well as the whole environment we live in today regarding lawsuits, etc.

[TheBugs]

I read the novel sophomore year in high school, so I was 15. I distinctly remember the sexual themes. I think 8th grade is too young. But not because I think the sexual themes should be censored, it's because there is a certain perspective that comes with maturity. Some topics can disturb and distract younger teens rather than round out the story. I don't like abridged versions, so I would rather wait or read the short story. It seems 8th grade you have a mix of maturity levels.

 

My opinion is heavily influenced by my 8th grade class.

[Pen]

We read some form of it in 6th grade--in my recollection it was short novel length, so perhaps it was an abridged version. I am not sure. It was handled in a special way with book discussion with the school's founder who was a psychiatrist. I recall a lot more having to do with mental health issues, intelligence and so on, than about sex, but I recall it as being one of the academic highlights of that year.

 

I think that if handled well, if the discussion and teacher leadership is good, literature with sexual themes can be very helpful to students who are at the adolescent age. In my limited experience, sex ed is more likely to get giggly and hard to deal with, while literature sometimes gives a way to discuss things at arms length. ...

[EKS]

Have you actually read the book?  The entire book, not just portions of the book?  Anyone who read the entire book would know that the book, while containing brief sexual scenes is not about sex, and sex is not a theme of the book.    My frustration isn't that people prefer it not be read, but that they haven't read it but want to censor it for others.  

 

I have read the book several times, most recently last year when this issue came up at my son's school.

 

I realize that the book is not about sex, but Charlie's sexual development and his issues with it *are* a theme, or perhaps, more accurately, a topic,  in the book. 

 

Here is a summary to jog your memory:  http://www.bookrags.com/notes/alg/top3.html.

 

This has nothing to do with censorship and everything to do with making sound curricular decisions.

 

[EKS]

I want to ask the folks on here who have been so vehemently opposed to any sort of discussion among school administration and parents of what is appropriate for various age groups in terms of reading assignments--where do you draw the line?  What *isn't* appropriate to assign to 8th graders?  To focus the discussion, let's restrict it to sexual content in books and the 8th grade.  Give examples--what *wouldn't* you assign to an 8th grade class in a secular b&m school? 

[In2why]

Go ask Alice is something that I would prefer be high school age.  19

Minutes is an excellent book but probably better for later.

 

Many of the books on the most challenged could be replaced with other books if teachers want to explore a theme, but I can't think of another book similar to Flowers of Algernon.   The book changes people.  

[Sahamamama]

. nm, old thread

[Walking-Iris]

I want to ask the folks on here who have been so vehemently opposed to any sort of discussion among school administration and parents of what is appropriate for various age groups in terms of reading assignments--where do you draw the line?  What *isn't* appropriate to assign to 8th graders?  To focus the discussion, let's restrict it to sexual content in books and the 8th grade.  Give examples--what *wouldn't* you assign to an 8th grade class in a secular b&m school? 

 

I'm not opposed to any sort of discussion about school material.  I'm more likely to be opposed to one parent's displeasure about a book impacting the whole. (I don't think it fair to hold back a whole class of 8th graders based on one child being placed 2 years ahead either btw)

 

I haven't read the book form of Flowers For Algernon, but it is one of those short stories that I remember. And in a public education that can too often be a blur of nonsense textbooks and meaningless assignments, having a memory of something that stuck with me is my own personal benchmark for quality (how I define that for myself). 

 

I only know the short story. I do not remember anything sexual. I remember the Lab mouse and the mentally challenged man. I remember feeling great empathy for him. I was rooting for him. This whole thread has made me want to seek that story out for my own ds. Thanks!!! It hasn't occurred to me yet!! ;)

 

I don't feel there are *any* books at all that are not appropriate for 8th graders. I honestly don't. I would only decide to wait on books that were too difficult to read or understand based on maturity level. There's only so much time in a year, so I would try to aim for classic and quality. I would see no point in reading and discussing Hunger Games if that meant that a more established classic would get the ax. And like a pp said...it's not as though you're asking a child to read Shades of Grey. So my curriculum discussions (if i were having them) would be based on that over any personal moralistic feelings.

 

 

I would be more likely to restrict film. I wouldn't want my children watching overly sexual film/TV or overly gruesome/violent films. I feel that what a young child sees (maybe even what an adult sees) is likely to be ingrained in our brain as that image. A book has the buffer of words. The only image we'll *see* is one constructed from our own imaginations and context based on our experience and knowledge. We've all had the experience of re-reading some childhood favorites and understanding so many more layers of meaning and imagery than our child minds were comprehending or even noticing.

 

I'll take LOTR as my example. Love the books. Love the movies. BUT I find myself having reservations when my oldest watches the movies because they are way more violent and bloody than the book. This is actually a conversation I had with my ds, who has read the books. Boromir's death is the scene that worried him. Even though we know when reading the orcs killed him with the arrow. It's something we can know without being overly traumatized and beat over the head with it. But that scene (in the movie) of constantly being shot at and Aragorn coming and fighting and the gruesomeness of the cutting off the arms and head etc. That bothered my ds for some time. Those images are there, to be called up in just that disturbing way whenever we think about it. The book had the violence, sure, but didn't place a disturbing image in our mind beyond the readers maturity level. Basically we have the film makers interpretation and imagination...not our own. Children (and adults) are able to read within their comfort level. We can choose to go on and come back to that later...maybe even much later. But a movie? There it is..no real choice in dealing with it. Often the disturbing part is just suddenly there.

 

Sex---same thing. Now I honestly have no example of an overly sexual book that we have read. <okay I have my only idea> The make out scenes in the later Harry Potter books. Not a big deal. BUT again, my ds sees the kissing happening in the film and has that image (not a terrible image...but still teens exploring sexual feelings image) and that's there in his mind in a way that the book never pushed onto him. In the book he can basically ignore on some level that theme, but it can't be ignored in the film.

 

I'm rambling--I feel. But my point is, personally, I'm more concerned with visual sexual/violent imagery (especially in film and TV) than I am about the same themes in books or even art. 

 

And if a theme is there, again Harry Potter, I could have discussed and talked to death about Ginny/Harry, sexual tension between Ron/Hermione and so on. But the other themes in the book are much much more important. That's how I view Flowers for Algernon (short story, which I can't even remember is that's even there). What a teacher would choose to emphasize would be more at issue than what is in the book, I feel. And if a child noticed and asked, how a teacher/parent approached it would give the kid either the impression of something wrong or something normal. 

 

Making sex out to be a BIG deal and a "no-no", only confuses a child about their own morality when they do want to read that book, or discuss some thing they noticed. Making something a BIG deal usually only reinforces a child's curiosity about why.

[EKS]

DP.  OK…so what worries me is not that you raised the issue, it's how quickly the school caved.  Why was there no discussion? Why didn't the English teacher or Head go…"well, I totally understand your concerns, and this is how we've handled that in the past."  or "Yes, I know it can be awkward for teens to discuss this in class, but we've found that having an anonymous online discussion forum works really well…and allows kids to ask some questions that they might not be comfortable with in class." or whatever.  

 

I think the reason the decision was made so quickly is that the school is relatively young and very small (my son's 8th grade class had 15 students, and it was the largest class in the school).  Next year will be the first year that they will have a well considered literature list for all the grades.  In the past several years, the way books were picked was that the teacher simply decided what he wanted to read (and it changed from year to year).  According to my son (who had this particular teacher for two years), the first time the teacher was reading several of the books was with the class--meaning they hadn't been vetted at all prior to being assigned.  When I first communicated with the head, I honestly thought that might have been the case with Flowers.

 

So it's not as though they have been using Flowers for Algernon in 8th grade at this school for years and years. 

[Penguin]

[snip]

 

 

I would be more likely to restrict film. I wouldn't want my children watching overly sexual film/TV or overly gruesome/violent films. I feel that what a young child sees (maybe even what an adult sees) is likely to be ingrained in our brain as that image. A book has the buffer of words. The only image we'll *see* is one constructed from our own imaginations and context based on our experience and knowledge. We've all had the experience of re-reading some childhood favorites and understanding so many more layers of meaning and imagery than our child minds were comprehending or even noticing. YES!

[snip]

 

[big snip]

 

 

 

Making sex out to be a BIG deal and a "no-no", only confuses a child about their own morality when they do want to read that book, or discuss some thing they noticed. Making something a BIG deal usually only reinforces a child's curiosity about why.

I wish that I could like your paragraph about restricting film 1000x. I think the imprint of film is so different.

 

But it seems like there is an assumption in this thread that all 8th graders want to read about sex, and that is simply not true. What about the 13 year old kid who would prefer to put his hands over his ears and say la-la-la-not-listening? I assure you that they are out there. Yes, this type of child needs adequate sex education, but that is separate from what he or she needs for literature.

 

 

The short story sounds like something I need to consider for my 8th graders list.

 

.

[Walking-Iris]

I wish that I could like your paragraph about restricting film 1000x. I think the imprint of film is so different.

 

But it seems like there is an assumption in this thread that all 8th graders want to read about sex, and that is simply not true. What about the 13 year old kid who would prefer to put his hands over his ears and say la-la-la-not-listening? I assure you that they are out there. Yes, this type of child needs adequate sex education, but that is separate from what he or she needs in for literature.

 

 

The short story sounds like something I need to consider for my 8th graders list.

 

.

 

I don't think I posted anything about assuming they want to read about it. I totally agree that some have no desire for certain themes in books. Even adults have those preferences. I was a late bloomer in a lot of ways around those issues. I wasn't la la la, but I also just didn't think it was worth thinking about. I'm still slightly prudish. 

 

But I do feel that at times adults can over react about what is considered appropriate. I feel odd posting now since I haven't read the book. I'll add that to my summer reading list, to compare to the short story.

 

But what other books would an 8th grader possibly read that are over sexual? I'm honestly having a hard time coming up with titles, that I'm familiar with anyway.

[Penguin]

I haven't read the book either, so I should stop posting in this thread. I just have a soft spot for the late bloomers and sensitive kids. Today's classroom selections can be tough on them.

 

Is Carrie sexual? That was on one of my rising 9th graders' summer reading choices until a parent (not me) complained. Not a book that usually shows up in middle school, but it is the only parental complaint that I have first hand knowledge of.

[Walking-Iris]

I haven't read the book either, so I should stop posting in this thread. I just have a soft spot for the late bloomers and sensitive kids. Today's classroom selections can be tough on them.

 

Is Carrie sexual? That was on one of my rising 9th graders' summer reading choices until a parent (not me) complained. Not a book that usually shows up in middle school, but it is the only parental complaint that I have first hand knowledge of.

 

Could they have complained because of the supernatural nature of it? I assume you're talking about Stephen King? Now see--- that's where it gets into that grey area. (Another book I haven't read, though!!!)

 

I wouldn't care if a teen chose to read SK Carrie, but I also wouldn't be terribly happy about studying a Stephen King novel in place of ___ fill in the blank with some classic that is more quality. Spending the time studying one book takes time from another. That has to be a consideration when making reading plans. I wouldn't purposely choose Carrie tbh. But I would still not go about my objections (if any) from a personal bias or moralistic view. I guess if someone gave me a solid argument as to the literary value of Carrie over another possible choice I could be okay with it. 

 

But at the same time a parent complaining about it being on a summer reading choice list is still going too far IMHO. I'm not aware of the parameters of this list, but the word "choice" makes me think that if that parent had objections to Carrie, then they could have asked their teen to choose something else on the list? What purpose does it serve to remove it from a list of possible choices for everyone because they don't like it? Especially in summer when the objector's teen wouldn't be stuck in a classroom reading and discussing it? Maybe another parent wouldn't care if their teen read Carrie. Maybe another parent wants their teen to read Carrie. In that scenario it sounds as though that parent made an even more sweeping complaint in having a book removed that goes beyond a classroom setting. I would have even more objections to someone  limiting other's "choices" in their summer free time.

[EKS]

I am making a particular distinction here that I think is getting lost.  I am talking specifically about making decisions about what books should be *assigned* in school.  Deciding whether a particular book is appropriate for a particular class is a complex process and has nothing to do with what I would consider to be censorship.  Making it illegal to publish or sell a book is censorship.  Deciding to eliminate a particular book from the library is censorship.  But deciding not to use a book for whatever reason as a class assignment is not censorship.  Teachers decide not to use the vast majority of books in their classes and no one is calling it censorship.  This situation is no different.

 

Also deciding which books to assign in a school setting is very different from deciding what books to assign as a homeschooler.  In a school setting, the school needs to be sensitive to the concerns of lots of different families whereas as a homeschooler, deciding what literature to assign is really just an extension of parenting. 

 

 

 

[Walking-Iris]

But you were still the one lone voice. I think what others are saying is that they for the most part recall Algernon being read. It's been used in schools for a very long time. At least the short story version. Your complaint is about  the sexuality of the book. Which is frankly subjective. It may seem like too much to some, or not a big deal to others. 

 

You used your personal bias and opinion and your ds's immaturity as a deciding factor for the rest. If he's behind two years the rest of his peers.....are you going to complain to his high school teachers, college professors? Your ds would be in high school now right? And still behind the class in age and maturity. Can he study Algernon now? Or is it inappropriate for 9th graders?

 

I wonder what your reaction would be if a parent complained about a book for some reason that you wanted on the reading list? Or what would your reaction have been if a parent complained about Algernon being taken off the list?

 

If you were the one parent who felt it was inappropriate, what would you have said if just one parent stood up to disagree with you. Whose opinion is more important here?

 

I don't buy your previous argument that parents just aren't paying attention, or they would have complained. You can't really know that. 

[EKS]

But you were still the one lone voice. I think what others are saying is that they for the most part recall Algernon being read. It's been used in schools for a very long time. At least the short story version. Your complaint is about  the sexuality of the book. Which is frankly subjective. It may seem like too much to some, or not a big deal to others. 

 

You used your personal bias and opinion and your ds's immaturity as a deciding factor for the rest. If he's behind two years the rest of his peers.....are you going to complain to his high school teachers, college professors? Your ds would be in high school now right? And still behind the class in age and maturity. Can he study Algernon now? Or is it inappropriate for 9th graders?

 

I wonder what your reaction would be if a parent complained about a book for some reason that you wanted on the reading list? Or what would your reaction have been if a parent complained about Algernon being taken off the list?

 

If you were the one parent who felt it was inappropriate, what would you have said if just one parent stood up to disagree with you. Whose opinion is more important here?

 

I think I'm done with this thread.  I'm tired of explaining my position over and over.  You obviously either have not read all of my posts or have chosen to interpret them in a way that is not in line with reality.

 

[Luanne]

We read it around 8th grade.  Saw the film too.

 

Kids are what…13 or so in 8th grade typically, maybe 14?  They know about sex.  If they're boys, they know about wet dreams.  They know about being aroused.  And they're a mass of hormones who are interested in those things.   Sex was not a major focus of the book either.  

 

Don't infantilize your kids.  Reading or not reading about sex is not going to change their biological drives.  Reading about somebody having sex is not going to make them have sex.  Geesh.  Charlie's frustration/struggles with his sexual feelings is probably something many teens can relate to, actually.  

 

The book's message on the treatment of those who are different or who are mentally challenged is far more important, and likely to be remembered far more than any sexual references.  

 

 

EKS: I'm completely saddened that one parents desire for censorship affected an entire class.  If you don't want your child reading the book, then excuse him/her from it…but punishing an entire class is ridiculous. Your child skipped two grades, that's not the fault of the other kids.  Was a chance given for the parents who want their kids to be exposed to a classic of American literature heard too??? Nah…didn't think so.

 

I don't see how not wanting your child (or even other people who pay no attention to what their children read) to read a book that isn't appropriate for 8th graders to read in the first place is PUNISHING the entire class.  I don't think they are going to die from not reading this book at the age of 13.

 

[WinsomeCreek]

I'm a little sheepish about the fact that I did let my oldest read this. I had him stop at the parts I thought would be too mature, but we talked through the content. I asked him again after seeing this discussion and he went and reread it! He said it is not appropriate for 11 yos in general. He felt it was ok for him because he has a pretty full background knowledge already (we have a dangerous level 3 SO next door and have to have explicit conversations) and he did feel that it was worth reading even if those parts are uncomfortable- though he felt the focus was on the self-struggle. *But* he also commented that hands down it was the manipulation in this book that was by far the most disturbing to him. He was grateful I let him read it, but felt it was generally more of a high school/post puberty read. I read it in school at 12/13 unabridged and don't even remember parts about sex, so maybe it was over my head.

[Jean in Newcastle]

8 year old zombie thread. Which might not matter for a book discussion. But many of the previous posters are no longer here.  

[EKS]

26 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

8 year old zombie thread. Which might not matter for a book discussion. But many of the previous posters are no longer here.  

I reported it.

(Also the post is nonsensical.)

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

Oddly enough I was super excited to see this post as my seventh grader is “reading” it(they don’t read in his class; they listen to books on audiobook) and I do kind of question the appropriateness in a 6-8th grade self contained classroom that is six kids with either high functioning autism or emotional/behavioral disturbances.

But then I realized that my seventh grader was 3 when this thread was started so….

[EKS]

I'll be interested to see if this thread gets locked.

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, EKS said:

I'll be interested to see if this thread gets locked.

Me too, albeit maybe not for the same reasons. Everything Umsami talked about has come to pass and then some. It's prescient. That could be very uncomfy.

[EKS]

19 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

Me too, albeit maybe not for the same reasons. Everything Umsami talked about has come to pass and then some. It's prescient. That could be very uncomfy.

Yes, because this thread is definitely about banning books.  

[Sneezyone]

9 minutes ago, EKS said:

Yes, because this thread is definitely about banning books.  

I went back and reread it from the beginning. As should others. It's prescient and 100% relevant today. Sadly. it has nothing tp do with banning books and everything to do with the antecedents of domestic fascism.

[Xahm]

I read through it just now and found the dilemma interesting. On the surface is the discussion of whether that particular book is a good fit for that particular class, but there's also this broader problem that I've seen. Some people in our world seem to be doubling for a fight, while others will do anything to avoid one. Naturally, there's a broad swath in the middle, people who want to go to the teacher and say, "hey, there's a tough issue in this book and I'm wondering how you will handle it" and actually have a discussion. It's a pity when that door is slammed shut, either by immediate appeasement (sorry, we'll drop it) or aggression (you'll have to sue me because I won't ban books, you fascist!).  It makes it hard to speak up because one fears being a party pooper or suddenly in a fight. In a setting like a school, teachers are more likely to take the first route, whether they just don't have time for such a discussion, because they haven't thought it through enough to have the discussion, or because they fear/expect parents not to be reasonable in such a discussion. 

It's a shame, and I don't know the solution. I imagine you might end up with some enormously long, though interesting, school board and curriculum committee meetings, with the result of better community between parents and teachers, if we could just find a way to make extremists take a moment to listen and to make capitulaters grow a spine.

[Sneezyone]

23 minutes ago, Xahm said:

I read through it just now and found the dilemma interesting. On the surface is the discussion of whether that particular book is a good fit for that particular class, but there's also this broader problem that I've seen. Some people in our world seem to be doubling for a fight, while others will do anything to avoid one. Naturally, there's a broad swath in the middle, people who want to go to the teacher and say, "hey, there's a tough issue in this book and I'm wondering how you will handle it" and actually have a discussion. It's a pity when that door is slammed shut, either by immediate appeasement (sorry, we'll drop it) or aggression (you'll have to sue me because I won't ban books, you fascist!).  It makes it hard to speak up because one fears being a party pooper or suddenly in a fight. In a setting like a school, teachers are more likely to take the first route, whether they just don't have time for such a discussion, because they haven't thought it through enough to have the discussion, or because they fear/expect parents not to be reasonable in such a discussion. 

It's a shame, and I don't know the solution. I imagine you might end up with some enormously long, though interesting, school board and curriculum committee meetings, with the result of better community between parents and teachers, if we could just find a way to make extremists take a moment to listen and to make capitulaters grow a spine.

Or, not. Some teachers are begging to engage in that discussion while their administrators push retreat. It probably depends on your region but it is a major issue where I live.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2023/03/06/slavery-was-wrong-5-other-things-educators-wont-teach-anymore/

[EKS]

3 hours ago, Xahm said:

I read through it just now and found the dilemma interesting. On the surface is the discussion of whether that particular book is a good fit for that particular class, but there's also this broader problem that I've seen. Some people in our world seem to be doubling for a fight, while others will do anything to avoid one. Naturally, there's a broad swath in the middle, people who want to go to the teacher and say, "hey, there's a tough issue in this book and I'm wondering how you will handle it" and actually have a discussion. It's a pity when that door is slammed shut, either by immediate appeasement (sorry, we'll drop it) or aggression (you'll have to sue me because I won't ban books, you fascist!).  It makes it hard to speak up because one fears being a party pooper or suddenly in a fight. In a setting like a school, teachers are more likely to take the first route, whether they just don't have time for such a discussion, because they haven't thought it through enough to have the discussion, or because they fear/expect parents not to be reasonable in such a discussion. 

It's a shame, and I don't know the solution. I imagine you might end up with some enormously long, though interesting, school board and curriculum committee meetings, with the result of better community between parents and teachers, if we could just find a way to make extremists take a moment to listen and to make capitulaters grow a spine.

Thank you for actually reading through the tread and understanding what I was trying to say.