It's hard to schedule PSAT here - would the SAT let me know if it's worth doing?

[katilac]

The SAT I can schedule on my own; the PSAT requires me to go through a school,and no luck yet. If I had her take the SAT in 10th, do you think it would give me a rough idea of how she might rate on PSAT for merit stuff? I mean, if she has a shot at PSAT-only stuff, we can certainly go through the aggravation, but I rather doubt it and would love to have an idea in advance.

 

We found practice SAT tests, but not PSAT.

[Candid]

You can actually submit a SAT score for the PSAT; here's a link to tell you how to do that: http://www.nationalmerit.org/entering.php#miss 

 

Note: I think you have to wait until after the PSAT has been given and then follow the instructions on this page before taking the SAT. 

[dirty ethel rackham]

You can actually submit a SAT score for the PSAT; here's a link to tell you how to do that: http://www.nationalmerit.org/entering.php#miss

 

Note: I think you have to wait until after the PSAT has been given and then follow the instructions on this page before taking the SAT. 

 

I think this is supposed to be for hardship cases who really CAN'T take the PSAT (either sick, out of the country or something like that.)  I am not sure their exact criteria, but they don't make it sound like anybody can do it. 

 

[Candid]

I think this is supposed to be for hardship cases who really CAN'T take the PSAT (either sick, out of the country or something like that.)  I am not sure their exact criteria, but they don't make it sound like anybody can do it. 

 

 

The College Prep Genius people push this as an alternative. They aren't my favorite source, but I think you can sign up to do this as long as you don't do the PSAT.

 

There are good reasons not to: harder math, longer test, more expensive, but for someone who can't get into a PSAT this could be an option. 

[katilac]

The College Prep Genius people push this as an alternative. They aren't my favorite source, but I think you can sign up to do this as long as you don't do the PSAT.

 

There are good reasons not to: harder math, longer test, more expensive, but for someone who can't get into a PSAT this could be an option.

Well, I don't really want to submit the SAT scores in lieu of, I just maybe want to use it as a tool to see if we should bother with hoop jumping for the PSAT. Like a score of x or above on SAT might mean competitive PSAT score. I wasn't going to bother, but then she scored above average on an SAT practice test with no geometry and no prep, so I don't want to dismiss it out of hand.

 

But the schools can be tedious to deal with!

[plansrme]

My daughter's SAT score (May) was exactly what her PSAT (the previous October) predicted. There is a thread on here from June'ish on how closely they correlate. She had had the math already, so there might be more variation if your daughter has not had all of the math tested on the SAT. So yes, for us, the SAT would definitely have told us whether it was worth taking the PSAT.

 

I have no idea if it is still the same, but in the 80s, it was not necessary to have a hardship to take the SAT in lieu of the PSAT. I was able to take the SAT because my crazy Podunk high school had never had anyone take the PSAT before and did not tell anyone about it. Not that I am bitter...

[Barbara H]

Your library may have a PSAT prep book. Here's a link to one.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Kaplan-PSAT-NMSQT-Premier-2013/dp/1609787056/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1373413896&sr=8-3&keywords=psat

 

You may have already tried this, but just a thought... you are close to a public or private school it may be worth stopping by after schools starts to chat with the counselor if you haven't already done so. It is often easier for people to say no on the phone or by email than it is in person.

 

 

[Barbara H]

The College Prep Genius people push this as an alternative. They aren't my favorite source, but I think you can sign up to do this as long as you don't do the PSAT.

 

 

If the student is likely to be in National Merit territory, I really wouldn't advise this. I just don't think it is worth the risk and the hassle to try to go through the alternative route.

[cbollin]

I remember a year ago or so the college prep genius person, Jean Burk, said on this forum "Firstly, when I share about the "alternative testing method" that allows students to retake the SAT (several times) in lieu of the PSAT, I tell families that this is an option if your student misses it as a junior. I do not promote this nor do I tell people to purposely miss the PSAT/NMSQT" . http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/408270-college-prep-question/?do=findComment&comment=4132382

doesn't sound like a push for the method, but just acknowledging it is an outside possibility.  So it really sounds like she's is in agreement that is not the best or normal route. 

 

Katilac, I'm sorry it's a struggle to find a school willing to let you test there.   You might try in August or first week of September when they are back in session and thinking about it.  The date will be in October and it just may not be the right time of year to call guidance offices of schools.   ??? maybe a private school if public doesn't work.   One thing I've heard on this forum with schools and taking it on Wednesday?  you might want to see if you have any dress codes to follow.  I was shocked reading someone's story last year on that. 

 

[Candid]

I remember a year ago or so the college prep genius person, Jean Burk, said on this forum "Firstly, when I share about the "alternative testing method" that allows students to retake the SAT (several times) in lieu of the PSAT, I tell families that this is an option if your student misses it as a junior. I do not promote this nor do I tell people to purposely miss the PSAT/NMSQT" . http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/408270-college-prep-question/?do=findComment&comment=4132382

doesn't sound like a push for the method, but just acknowledging it is an outside possibility.  So it really sounds like she's is in agreement that is not the best or normal route. 

 

 

 

Unfortunately that is not what I heard here. The local representative pushed this method hard. I don't know if that is Ms. Burk's fault or not, but we have had reports on this board that Ms. Burk does not take correction well. 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Well, I don't really want to submit the SAT scores in lieu of, I just maybe want to use it as a tool to see if we should bother with hoop jumping for the PSAT. Like a score of x or above on SAT might mean competitive PSAT score. I wasn't going to bother, but then she scored above average on an SAT practice test with no geometry and no prep, so I don't want to dismiss it out of hand.

 

But the schools can be tedious to deal with!

Not sure which practice SAT you did.  There is an official practice test on the College Board site and several more in the official "blue" practice book.

 

PSAT runs on a 20-80 scale and SAT runs on a 200-800 scale.  So you could drop a zero from the SAT score to estimate the PSAT.

 

Then you could look at a list of cut off scores for National Merit Scholarship from the past couple of years.  Cut off scores vary by year and by state, so look down a few years to see how much your state has varied recently.

 

That may give you an idea if it's worth the hassle of doing the PSAT.

 

FWIW, the cut off in my state recently was in the 217-220 range.  That means that the individual sections were probably in the upper 90% (220 would mean an average of 73-74 in each section, though if a student nailed one section, another could drop some).

 

===

 

On the other hand, you might look at working through the PSAT registration process as a pay it forward effort.  You could help establish lines of communication that could also help with things like AP exams and notice of college fairs.

 

One argument in favor of PSAT beyond National Merit qualification is that it IS a practice SAT.  Students have the advantage of dealing with a high school, standard test procedures and a little stress.  But the scores don't get bundled into the SAT scores that are reported to colleges.  It doesn't last quite as long and doesn't cost as much.

[katilac]

Thanks, guys, that's a lot of good information. It looks like we should probably go the standard route and take it.

 

Any ideas on whether it's worth taking a practice run in 10th?

 

 

 

<snip>

On the other hand, you might look at working through the PSAT registration process as a pay it forward effort.  You could help establish lines of communication that could also help with things like AP exams and notice of college fairs.

You people and your good ideas, forcing me out into the community . . .

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Thanks, guys, that's a lot of good information. It looks like we should probably go the standard route and take it.

 

Any ideas on whether it's worth taking a practice run in 10th?

 

 

 

You people and your good ideas, forcing me out into the community . . .

I would go ahead and do a practice run, for a couple reasons.

 

-The local public students might take it several times.  In my area, all students who show up to school that day in grades 9-11 take the test.  So students who are in range for National Merit might have 2 practice tests under their belt.

-Taking the test in 10th grade also lets you have a practice run on navigating the bureaucracy at the school, what can be taken in on test day, where to park, etc.

-It lets the school get accustomed to having to work with someone outside the building.

-At my house, having some test scores was a big confidence boost for my kids.  It gave them a sense that they were in fact making some progress and helped them see that college was in fact in reach.  (I realize this might have the opposite effect in other circumstances.)  It also prompted a bit of college mail.  Even if it's just an occasional reminder that college is out there as a goal, that can help us on our off days.

[Musicmom]

Katilac, to answer your original question, I think you might be able to use the SAT as a general gauge of how your dd might do on the PSAT. PSAT scores for each section go up to 80, so you're supposed to be able to roughly translate that to a SAT score by adding on a zero. So a 64 on PSAT reading would correlate to a 640 on SAT reading. (In fact, when my ds took the SAT just 2 months after his PSAT, his scores were exactly his PSAT scores with zeros added on!!) I would think you could do this in reverse--take the zero off the SAT score for each section, then add up the three scores and compare to your state's historical cutoffs for National Merit (and the nationwide cutoff for Commended). It might be more useful to do it using an Official SAT practice test, because you'll be able to see how the writing portion breaks down. The SAT has an essay, and the score on that figures into the overall writing score, so a great essay score can make up for some lost points on the multiple choice part (and great multiple choice scores help offset an average essay.) The PSAT on the other hand has no essay--the multiple choice is everything. So what you'll want to do is pay close attention to how the multiple choice part of the writing goes on the SAT. You'll also want to keep in mind that the SAT and PSAT differ a bit in content on the reading and math (writing multiple choice is quite similar). PSAT math for example, has significantly more geometry, but fewer tricks than SAT math. The critical reading also has a little different feel to it.

 

If you wanted to try some semblance of a PSAT practice test, McGraw-Hill's PSAT prep book is pretty good. The practice tests are not quite like the real thing, but their prep is good for the real thing, and their tests are based on that, so it might be helpful.

 

If your dd scores near the Commended or Semi-finalist cutoffs, then I'd definitely go for the test. So sorry the schools in your area are hard to work with. I had 2 schools turn us down (including a private school we helped fund when it started!!) before I found one that would help. Are there any parochial schools in your area? Our local Catholic high school has been exceptionally kind and helpful in accomodating my dc for both PSAT and AP tests.

 

Hope this helps!

[Candid]

Thanks, guys, that's a lot of good information. It looks like we should probably go the standard route and take it.

 

Any ideas on whether it's worth taking a practice run in 10th?

 

 

 

You people and your good ideas, forcing me out into the community . . .

 

All of Sebastian's points are dead on. If you've had a hard time working with folks, I think building a relationship with them could be important, especially as you might want to take some APs later on. So an extra year could help with that. 

 

If they grumble about extra work, offer to volunteer that day to help in another room (don't know if you can or not, but offering should at least show them you are willing to help and be part of their team for this). 

[RootAnn]

-The local public students might take it several times.  In my area, all students who show up to school that day in grades 9-11 take the test.  So students who are in range for National Merit might have 2 practice tests under their belt.

-Taking the test in 10th grade also lets you have a practice run on navigating the bureaucracy at the school, what can be taken in on test day, where to park, etc.

-It lets the school get accustomed to having to work with someone outside the building.

 

While my kids are too young to yet have to worry about this, I'm considered the 'guru' in the local homeschool group when it comes to PSAT & "planning ahead" for high school including dual enrollment. (Don't ask me why!  :huh: ) I took it upon myself to chat up the local school's guidance counselor at the pool this summer.

- ONLY juniors are allowed to take the test. No Sophomores.

- Only THEIR juniors are allowed to take the test. NO ONE from the outside is allowed to take it. No wiggle room.

- She recommended I call the local college to see if my kid could take the PSAT when they administer it there.  :confused1:

 

This woman's lack of knowledge about the PSAT is astonishing considering that it is part of her job to know such things. (They do not encourage their students to take the PSAT & several "top students" have missed it in the last couple of years and not even known the ramifications of losing out on National Merit.) 

 

I put a bee in the bonnet of a 'community organizer' who has a vested interest in having her oldest get a good run in on the PSAT, but it'll be a couple years before that will bear fruit here. And, it still won't help us homeschoolers (but it might help open up the testing to Sophomores).

 

I'm pretty sure the Catholic school a coupla' towns away will let homeschoolers take it there, but it stinks we'd have to drive that far when we could do it here.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

While my kids are too young to yet have to worry about this, I'm considered the 'guru' in the local homeschool group when it comes to PSAT & "planning ahead" for high school including dual enrollment. (Don't ask me why!  :huh: ) I took it upon myself to chat up the local school's guidance counselor at the pool this summer.

- ONLY juniors are allowed to take the test. No Sophomores.

- Only THEIR juniors are allowed to take the test. NO ONE from the outside is allowed to take it. No wiggle room.

- She recommended I call the local college to see if my kid could take the PSAT when they administer it there.  :confused1:

 

This woman's lack of knowledge about the PSAT is astonishing considering that it is part of her job to know such things. (They do not encourage their students to take the PSAT & several "top students" have missed it in the last couple of years and not even known the ramifications of losing out on National Merit.) 

 

I put a bee in the bonnet of a 'community organizer' who has a vested interest in having her oldest get a good run in on the PSAT, but it'll be a couple years before that will bear fruit here. And, it still won't help us homeschoolers (but it might help open up the testing to Sophomores).

 

I'm pretty sure the Catholic school a coupla' towns away will let homeschoolers take it there, but it stinks we'd have to drive that far when we could do it here.

The bolded above doesn't make any sense when coupled with the statement in red about taking it at the college.

 

One thought is that many of the high schools in my area have very large guidance offices.  It is possible that the PSAT is not a specialty of the person you were talking to.  Of course, given the fact that they've also let registered PS students fall through the cracks, it may in fact be the case.

 

A couple avenues for improvement. 

First try to identify the specific counselor for testing and send a request for registration information.  I'm a fan of email, since there is a record; but phone may work better in order to answer questions and provide follow up immediately.  (If the school has a policy of paying for the test for their students, it might be worth mentioning that you would be happy to pay for the cost of your student's test registration.)

 

Contact the principal and ask the same question.  Point out that you live in the area for that school. 

 

Contact the office to which you send any homeschool documentation (if applicable) like a Notice of Intent or annual Proof of Progress.  Ask them how your student can take the PSAT.  In my state (VA) homeschoolers must be given access.  (This is written into our state homeschool law.)

 

You might consider going to a school board meeting and bringing up the topic of PSAT testing in general (widening it to more grades) and homeschooler access in particular (many people don't realize that this test is only offered once per year or that there isn't online registration as there is for SAT).  In my area, the topic of honors course availability in high school and gpa calculations were major topics during the last school board election.  So this issue of PSAT administration might be of general interest.

 

You might also want to point out in some of these conversations that homeschoolers have their own College Board code, so their scores won't bring down the local school's averages.  Keep in mind that in many cases, the only homeschoolers school administrators encounter are those who are choosing to enroll in the school.  Those families might have done a great job and just be looking for the accredited diploma.  But it's also possible that many of the former homeschoolers they see have not laid firm foundations and are turning to public school because homeschooling wasn't working for them anymore.  I try to start out with giving people the benefit of the doubt.

 

Depending on your state, you might want to contact your legislators or your area/state homeschool groups about the issue of access.  I say this with caution because in some states there is such animus toward homeschooling that the best course is to hope no legislation is offered up in a session - a less than ideal status quo being better than what might come out of the legislative process.  On the other hand, my state has had pretty stable and positive laws for quite a while and there have been frequent introductions of bills discussing sports access for homeschoolers.  I would think that access to academic testing is far more important.  But this is definitely a situational thing.

 

Not that it's perfect, but here is the VA law.  Section F at the end covers testing.  This wasn't in the law when we started homeschooling 11 years ago.  I'm not sure when it was added, since we were nomadic for most of those years.  But I'm so grateful for the families and legislators who have pressed for greater access.  My kid to the PSAT and we've gone to district college fairs.  In general the test coordinators have been professional and helpful.  The people I know who have done AP tests have also had good experiences. 

[RootAnn]

I live in a very small town.  :laugh:  This woman IS the guidance office (and the current mayor's wife). From what I've gathered, the PSAT is not a specialty of the person I was talking to. However, that's the only person our little local school has. (The local college doesn't administer the PSAT. That's how clueless this woman is - suggesting I check with them. She was trying to be helpful.)

 

Thanks for the big list of options. They might help someone else. In my little town where many of the school personnel & school board attend the same church as we (and a few other HS families) do, almost all of the suggestions would only cause backlash. (We would be viewed as "going over the head" of the decision-maker.) 

 

As I said before, it isn't an issue this year. (Next one who faces this where he could be a NM contender is going to be a Freshman this year.) I'm just trying to see what our options are. For now, with the current guidance counselor, the local high school is a closed door.  I'm waiting until next month to call neighboring town high schools & the few-towns-over Catholic one. We might have a different guidance counselor by the time my dc get to be of PSAT age. Otherwise, I'm going to go for a gradual & round-about approach.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I live in a very small town.  :laugh:  This woman IS the guidance office (and the current mayor's wife). From what I've gathered, the PSAT is not a specialty of the person I was talking to. However, that's the only person our little local school has. (The local college doesn't administer the PSAT. That's how clueless this woman is - suggesting I check with them. She was trying to be helpful.)

 

Thanks for the big list of options. They might help someone else. In my little town where many of the school personnel & school board attend the same church as we (and a few other HS families) do, almost all of the suggestions would only cause backlash. (We would be viewed as "going over the head" of the decision-maker.) 

 

As I said before, it isn't an issue this year. (Next one who faces this where he could be a NM contender is going to be a Freshman this year.) I'm just trying to see what our options are. For now, with the current guidance counselor, the local high school is a closed door.  I'm waiting until next month to call neighboring town high schools & the few-towns-over Catholic one. We might have a different guidance counselor by the time my dc get to be of PSAT age. Otherwise, I'm going to go for a gradual & round-about approach.

I understand, situation is everything.  And I can understand not wanting to create animosity.

 

We face something of a similar situation with regard to sport.  In VA, homeschoolers are not permitted to compete with public school schools or to create teams that compete against them.  There is a league of independent schools and homeschool teams, but each year it grows smaller as schools fold or transfer to a school only independent school league.  This will come up from time to time, especially with parents of other swimmers.  Swimming training is mostly through clubs, but high schools also have teams.  Usually when I mention that my son isn't allowed to try out for the local high school team, the other parent is surprised and doesn't understand the restriction.  (Swimming is a bit like pro soccer, where players train and play for one team most of the time, then come back to their home country team for the World Cup, competing against their normal team mates.)  I figure the more people that have encountered the idea that some kids are locked out (even of competing against the PS teams on a private or homeschool team) and decided it's silly, the better chance some change has in the future.

 

Maybe there are ways to be of help with the guidance office and then plant seeds that will become her idea to change their practice.  Just as an example, I am an Admissions Information Liaison for my alma mater and do college info sessions, college fairs and candidate interviews.  It gives me another point of access to school guidance offices. 

 

It's a tough trail to try to navigate. 

[Caroline]

At my school, PSAT is run by the administrator in charge of AP and the AP coordinator (a teacher), just because those two people do all of our dealings with College Board. Maybe talk to an assistant principal.

[Barbara H]

I live in a very small town.  :laugh:  This woman IS the guidance office (and the current mayor's wife). From what I've gathered, the PSAT is not a specialty of the person I was talking to. However, that's the only person our little local school has. (The local college doesn't administer the PSAT. That's how clueless this woman is - suggesting I check with them. She was trying to be helpful.)

 

I would suggest that a homeschooler who has a kid who needs to register for the PSAT might make an appointment in her office. Bring muffins. Sweet as sugar say "This is such a big deal because Jimmie needs scholarships for college and I know you all are so busy already and I don't want the homeschool stuff to be an extra hassle for you. So, I checked into it with the College Board, and homeschoolers take the PSAT at local high schools most often the public school because they don't give it at colleges. They gave me the code we put on the exams..."  And, just see what happens.

[Mrs Mungo]

I think the main thing with striking out so far is that it is a little early.

 

Check the college board website. What schools actually give the test in your area (or even a big town nearby)? I called the local private schools first. They let me know that they have to accomodate their own students first, and they would release the number of available seats leftover in September. I drove down and paid for the test the day they released the numbers. It didn't require any extra fluffy stuff.