Annie G Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 Ds met a lovely young Russian girl while attending the local college. She is 20, he just turned 19, and both 'kids' live at home with parents. They spent some time at school, having lunch together. Then she invited him to her house for dinner, and he went. Had a nice time, and a few weeks later we had her over for dinner. So far so good, right? A few weeks later ds was in a production of Les Miserables and invited her to come see a performance. She told him her mother and sister would be bringing her, and we had tickets waiting at will call for them. They went out with us after the show and ds bought them ice cream. Everything went ok until ds asked the girl to step outside to talk- the girl is SUPER quiet- I can't hear her in our living room and this was in a crowded Culver's with lots of cast members making all kinds of noise. Her mother said the sister had to accompany them outside, and she did. The whole time the mom was keeping an eye on them, even though she was talking to us. Fast forward to now- we're going out to celebrate ds's birthday and he invited the girl to join us for dinner and a movie. She accepted and said her older sister would be joining us. I am clueless about Russian culture as far as dating- who can clue me in? Should he expect her sister or mother to chaperone every time he gets together with her? And I'm guessing we're expected to pay for the chaperone, too, right? And this chaperoning will last how long? She really is a nice girl, but ds just doesn't know how to proceed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 Too many unknown variables for me to give a definitive answer. Is the girl's family Jewish, Orthodox Christian, or non-religious? If the family is from one of those two religions, cultural values could be active. My Russian Orthodox friends are very "Americanized", so I would not imagine this scenario occurring. (I live in a very large metropolitan area.) On the other hand, speaking as a Russian Orthodox mom myself (I am not Russian, but am of that faith), -- and knowing that readers of my post will guffaw (which doesn't bother me) -- I like and respect this girl's family for their conservative, careful (call that "care-full") style. It is too early, given only these details, for me to know if the family is an overly-anxious, "smother culture" family. Perhaps they are. That would be a red flag for down the road. Perhaps, though, they just are committed to knowing a young man before trusting the safety of their young daughter. As said before, I like that. The concept of "dating" as isolated individuals, with no inclusion of family throughout the friendship process, is incomprehensible for some cultures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melinda in VT Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 I believe you that the girl is very nice, but she doesn't seem to have the cultural sensitivity or awareness for an inter-cultural relationship. *She* should be the one explaining this to your son. If she's in college in the U.S., surely she knows that her family's dating culture is not the norm here. She needs to be the bridge between the two cultures for both her family and your son, if she wants a relationship with an American. Your son should ask her to help him understand the expectations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annie G Posted June 19, 2013 Author Share Posted June 19, 2013 Too many unknown variables for me to give a definitive answer. Is the girl's family Jewish, Orthodox Christian, or non-religious? If the family is from one of those two religions, cultural values could be active. My Russian Orthodox friends are very "Americanized", so I would not imagine this scenario occurring. (I live in a very large metropolitan area.) On the other hand, speaking as a Russian Orthodox mom myself (I am not Russian, but am of that faith), -- and knowing that readers of my post will guffaw (which doesn't bother me) -- I like and respect this girl's family for their conservative, careful (call that "care-full") style. It is too early, given only these details, for me to know if the family is an overly-anxious, "smother culture" family. Perhaps they are. That would be a red flag for down the road. Perhaps, though, they just are committed to knowing a young man before trusting the safety of their young daughter. As said before, I like that. The concept of "dating" as isolated individuals, with no inclusion of family throughout the friendship process, is incomprehensible for some cultures. I appreciate a family who is protective of their young daughter. I just don't know where the line is between protective and smothering. I know the family isn't Jewish, but don't know beyond that. She has a cell phone but isn't allowed to text. She isn't allowed a Facebook account. Ds is not trying to take her out alone- everything has been with either her family or ours, and he's not driving her anywhere. At lunch at school, there is always someone else present. So it's hard to tell whether it's just traditional values or something more. Her sister is a little younger, and neither of them have dated before. So this is new territory for the family and the mom isn't giving the girl much information about what to expect. So I guess for now it's wait and see... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annie G Posted June 19, 2013 Author Share Posted June 19, 2013 I believe you that the girl is very nice, but she doesn't seem to have the cultural sensitivity or awareness for an inter-cultural relationship. *She* should be the one explaining this to your son. If she's in college in the U.S., surely she knows that her family's dating culture is not the norm here. She needs to be the bridge between the two cultures for both her family and your son, if she wants a relationship with an American. Your son should ask her to help him understand the expectations. This is new territory for their family- neither of the sisters have dated before so the mom may be figuring it out herself. And I get that- she's trying to maintain their culture while living here, but we're clueless. He's asked about the expectations several times but at this point the mom isn't giving her any answers. Ds isn't impatient with the pace or with the chaperoning, he just started wondering if the Russian culture was more courtship style and he's not ready for that- he's just getting to know her. He's an adult and has handled the relationship well so far, but when he came to us asking advice, I naturally turned to the Hive. He has to talk to her some more about their culture and expectations. The girl is so shy and her mom is so dominant- I hope the girl can talk to her mom and press for some answers. Otherwise, it's going to be difficult for the sisters to date American boys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 If the mother speaks English, perhaps just you could meet just her for coffee/tea or lunch, to visit and become better acquainted? Trying to brainstorm. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annie G Posted June 19, 2013 Author Share Posted June 19, 2013 The mother speaks English very well. She's VERY intelligent, homeschooled the girls, and we had a lovely talk after the show. Meeting for lunch sounds like an excellent idea. It never occurred to me - thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathryn Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 If the mother speaks English, perhaps just you could meet just her for coffee/tea or lunch, to visit and become better acquainted? Trying to brainstorm. . . The mother speaks English very well. She's VERY intelligent, homeschooled the girls, and we had a lovely talk after the show. Meeting for lunch sounds like an excellent idea. It never occurred to me - thanks! I agree. Under the circumstances, this sounds like the best way to proceed if your son wishes to continue to date her daughter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melinda in VT Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 This is new territory for their family- neither of the sisters have dated before so the mom may be figuring it out herself. And I get that- she's trying to maintain their culture while living here, but we're clueless. He's asked about the expectations several times but at this point the mom isn't giving her any answers. Ds isn't impatient with the pace or with the chaperoning, he just started wondering if the Russian culture was more courtship style and he's not ready for that- he's just getting to know her. He's an adult and has handled the relationship well so far, but when he came to us asking advice, I naturally turned to the Hive. He has to talk to her some more about their culture and expectations. The girl is so shy and her mom is so dominant- I hope the girl can talk to her mom and press for some answers. Otherwise, it's going to be difficult for the sisters to date American boys. Ugh. I feel for your son. And the girl. To be honest, the additional details you've shared (here and in a previous post) would make me encourage my son to look elsewhere. It's hard for me to imagine that a family that doesn't allow their 20-year-old college student to have a Facebook account is going to have bearable boundaries after the girl marries. However, I do like the suggestion to have you meet with the mom. Maybe things will appear differently after that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiguirre Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 I'd have to agree with Melinda. It's one thing to have a no FB or texting rule for a 15 yo, but it's a completely different kettle of fish to be this controlling of an adult child. My parents were very strict during high school: no dating, no driving, no long phone calls. That came to an end when I went to university (in a city 6 hrs away, so that helped). Once I was at university, I was on my own. I didn't go wild because it was an achievement-oriented school and my friends and I prioritized our grad school admission chances, but I was on my own. This situation isn't just strict, it's controlling and I would get away fast if I were your son. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 I think there's lots of room for asking, learning, deciding. Just ask for information. It sounds like talking with the mom is an option, so maybe do that. The son can also ask the girl when they are together, even if chaperoned by the sister. Just ask. There's no harm in asking, and you'd get answers or at least some kind of feel for what's going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 We had a similar experience with a Russian family - also homeschoolers, though the girl was younger. The mother asked to speak to me and get assurances of my son's intentions when he wanted to e-mail the girl as part of a writer's club. The e-mails were in order to share stories. He had no intentions. But the mom was so careful of any exposure the teen girl had to boys that the girl had to bow out of the club. It could be something in the culture. It could be part of one subset of homeschooler culture. Or it could be coincidence! It's really hard if the mom is not really sure herself what she wants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tita Gidge Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 Otherwise, it's going to be difficult for the sisters to date American boys. This doesn't seem that odd (to me) for a first generation family. It could be that they prefer she date Russian, but they're being cautiously open to your American boy. They might see what a good young man he is, and they're willing to support her getting to know him BUT they're treading new water and are naturally erring on the side of over-protecting. I came from a family that sounds similar. It wasn't controlling so much as it was protecting - at least that was the intent. It was more old-school than the way many of our American peers were raised. Where we're from, children - in particular, daughters - are under the responsibility of their parents until they are married. Chaperones are the norm, for both genders. I come from a huge family so it was our natural default to group date/meet up. In a small family like this Russian girl's, it becomes harder and more noticeably odd. It never bothered me, but the arrangment was often the discussion of the dorm since none of my American peers could understand why I stood for that. Yes, I was a legal adult but I was also dependent upon my parents so I was happy to follow their rules LOL. I trusted they had my best intentions in mind, even when I disagreed. (Not to say I didn't go around some of their restrictions ;) but I never questioned that they were looking out for my best interests!) I love the idea of lunch with the mother, getting to know her and respectfulling inquiring as to their cultural expectations, etc. re: this blooming relationship. I view this as cultural, not controlling in the Western sense of the word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 ETA: I had not yet read your post, Tita when I wrote the following. Thank you for sharing your good perspective! P.S. to anything I posted earlier. Do not rush to elevate American culture to "better than" another country's culture. I sense that OP is being careful not to make that mistake, and I'm glad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melinda in VT Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 ETA: I had not yet read your post, Tita when I wrote the following. Thank you for sharing your good perspective! P.S. to anything I posted earlier. Do not rush to elevate American culture to "better than" another country's culture. I sense that OP is being careful not to make that mistake, and I'm glad. I'm not sure if you were referring to either of my posts, but I realize I probably wasn't clear. I am not judging the other family's culture. All I am saying is it sounds very different and like the relationship with her family (if they were to marry) would not be the typical in-law relationship that Americans grow up expecting to have. That's not better or worse, but it is different, and it would be a point of stress on a marriage or dating relationship. The fact that it sounds like her parents are still figuring out how this will work adds some uncertainty and complexity to the situation as well. If I were the young man's parent in this situation, I would caution him to think long and hard about what wants and whether this cultural difference is a deal-breaker for him. That's not a value judgement on the young woman's family, it's a recognition that cultural differences matter in a marriage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 Melissa, mine was an "all-purpose" observation, not aimed at anybody in particular. I'm sorry if it misled you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8circles Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 I think there's lots of room for asking, learning, deciding. Just ask for information. It sounds like talking with the mom is an option, so maybe do that. The son can also ask the girl when they are together, even if chaperoned by the sister. Just ask. There's no harm in asking, and you'd get answers or at least some kind of feel for what's going on. He's asked about the expectations several times but at this point the mom isn't giving her any answers. ... He has to talk to her some more about their culture and expectations. The girl is so shy and her mom is so dominant- I hope the girl can talk to her mom and press for some answers. I think talking with just the mom is the best option at this point. Hopefully it'll be more productive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HollyDay Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 Off the top of my head, I'm wondering if this is a courtship style vs dating style. Over the years, I've met a few families who follow a courtship type of "dating" rather than a contemporary type of "dating." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa in Australia Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 I was chaperoned like this, except I had 7 younger siblings as my chaperone, if DH and I went for a walk, they all came along. Every single second we were together was very closely watched. I remember getting dragged over the coals because DH and I had our feet touching under the kitchen table ( we were already engaged). we were chaperoned right until the minute we were married. My parents did this because they thought at the time that they were doing was right. it was not a cultural thing, and was even stricter than the religion that we were all part of. DH is 13 years older than me and found the whole thing pretty amusing. Though he did tell me once that it added a greater level of excitement, slipping in the odd hand grasp without my younger siblings noticing that kind of thing…. Strangely my parents did not do this with any of my younger siblings. Only one other sibling remained a virgin until married, several of them just live with their boyfriends/girlfriends and have children without getting married. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annie G Posted June 20, 2013 Author Share Posted June 20, 2013 I appreciate all the replies- gave me lots to think about. I can't tell whether it's just a more conservative view to dating or a controlling mother...or a bit of both. If it's a difference in dating style due to culture, ds can deal with that. But if it's intended to lead to a courtship and/or a domineering mother who controls everything, he's probably not going to be able to stick it out. The mom let her come to dinner at our house without a chaperone so I don't know why every outing since then has required one...and we're at a loss about paying for the chaperone. We're picking up the tab for this event because it's a birthday celebration for him. But with the show, he expected to buy one ticket and pick up her food costs- and when he was informed three were coming, he felt conflicted. As an adult he didn't ask us to pay for the extra tickets or food, but he's 19 and that was $45 worth of tickets and another $15 for food- quite an expense for a young guy. We've been told (by another friend who has more experience with this culture) that he's expected to pay for all costs for the girl and whoever she brings with her. We're going to see how tomorrow goes and then he'll decide how to proceed. The girl lives 30 minutes away in one direction and the restaurant is 40 minutes away in the other direction...and since our car holds five, we now have to take 2 cars so we can bring both girls (our daughter is of course attending her brother's birthday dinner). It's going to be 180 miles to get them, go, and take them home. And we have to do half of that with 2 cars. I'm sorry- I'm making it sound like it's about the money but it's not- it's that these are two young adults and ds is struggling with whether he can meet the family's vague expectations. Thanks again- and it was interesting to see a variety of responses! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 The more that I think about it, none of our Russian friends would be doing this. Not even families newly-arrived. I hope you can get together with the mother soon! I think I would suggest to your son that free or low-cost events are best for as long as the additional company are involved. Concerts in the park. Picnics. Bowling. Tennis at the rec center. Even . . . mall jaunts. :leaving: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostSurprise Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 I don't think its a Russian thing as much as a first generation conservative/family centered thing. I knew a girl who was second generation from Mexico with a large religious family and it was exactly the same. She attended the same Christian college I did and the process scared away several guys even though she was totally gorgeous and a really nice person. She married the one who stuck it out. He lived in South America as a kid and was more comfortable with the dynamic of a large, protective, involved, loving family (with dozens of extended relations acting more like mothers, fathers, and siblings than aunts, uncles, and cousins). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annie G Posted June 20, 2013 Author Share Posted June 20, 2013 The more that I think about it, none of our Russian friends would be doing this. Not even families newly-arrived. I hope you can get together with the mother soon! I think I would suggest to your son that free or low-cost events are best for as long as the additional company are involved. Concerts in the park. Picnics. Bowling. Tennis at the rec center. Even . . . mall jaunts. :leaving: If ds ever goes on a 'mall jaunt' with her, I'll know it's serious. The boy has inherited his father's dislike of shopping. Unless UPS is delivering it to our doorstep, the boy isn't buying it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annie G Posted June 20, 2013 Author Share Posted June 20, 2013 I don't think its a Russian thing as much as a first generation conservative/family centered thing. I knew a girl who was second generation from Mexico with a large religious family and it was exactly the same. She attended the same Christian college I did and the process scared away several guys even though she was totally gorgeous and a really nice person. She married the one who stuck it out. He lived in South America as a kid and was more comfortable with the dynamic of a large, protective, involved, loving family (with dozens of extended relations acting more like mothers, fathers, and siblings than aunts, uncles, and cousins). A few of the homeschooling families we know would probably be this protective- so perhaps you're right and it's not a Russian thing. Can you tell me whether your friend's family backed off after they were married? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostSurprise Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Backed off in what way? Certainly she wasn't chaperoned. She became a woman herself. However, they were smack in the middle of family~constant get-togethers, big meals, drop-ins, her brothers would come over to play video games with him. He was just brought into the family life. He did tire of the closeness sometimes. Their apartment was within minutes of her family. After a few years I heard they moved to the city (from the suburbs). They were close enough to attend events they wanted to go to and I think she felt more comfortable saying no to some of the expectations. It took a few years to iron out how close they would be with her family. I'm not saying your son's situation is the same, but it sounds similar to me. A lot depends on who this girl turns out to be and how patient or open-minded your son is. A close family culture can be one of the most beautiful things in human relationships, and often its strengthened when a family leaves their home and comes to an alien place where they really need to help each other. Your son could be adopted into this tribe, and if he likes them, it could be a great thing. However, he needs to be open about money with his friend. He is a college student and can't afford to pay for multiple theater tickets, dinners, transportation. This was a one-time thing because he respects her and her family. In the future he needs to know her family's expectations and if necessary they will go to less expensive venues. He needs to ask her about dating in her family and they need to trade cultural expectations and figure out how to move forward together. Until that happens, there's no way to tell if this is a close, happy family; an assumption that your son is well-off because he comes from a middle class family (assuming you are financing his education and activities); fear of losing a child to a new place and people; or an abusive situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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