How to discipline younger children for non-spankers?

[Shahrazad]

Please don't quote me as I will delete this later. I don't want to have anything written negatively about my children sitting around the internet.

 

I hope you guys can give me some good advice. I've seen a lot of posts and been impressed by some of the parenting ideas people come up with for different situations. I've really hit a hard point with DS1. As a toddler, he was SO good, quiet, polite, and well-behaved. He never yelled or back talked and always listened to me. When bedtime rolled around, he was a breeze to put to sleep in his own room by himself. He was very self-contained in his play and would not make a mess. About midway through my pregnancy with DS2, I had to be put on strict bedrest and, because it became to difficult for me to supervise him safely, he started spending quite a bit of time with my husband's family (parents, my bil and sil, and his cousins) and he was happy with that because he didn't get to see other kids much so he really loved to have some quality time with his cousins (one was 3 years older than him and the other is his same age, they were both quite a bit louder and rambunctious than he was). Additionally, when DS2 was born, he ended up getting really sick and being hospitalized for almost a month and I stayed in the hospital the whole time with him. DS1 had to stay with my in-laws (and my dh would stay over at their house as well so he could be with DS1 every time he wasn't at work) and he didn't come to the hospital much because we feared him picking something up and getting sick and also because he couldn't see his new baby brother as DS2's illness made him extremely susceptible to catching anything and everything and he had already picked up a secondary infection just at the hospital. Anyway, soon after discharge, we had to make a cross-country move and so I imagine that all the attachment he had formed with his cousins and my in-laws, made this extra hard on him.

 

Ever since this time, he's been happy but he has gained some really bad habits and his personality is much more similar to his cousins now. He's so loud and rambunctious, constantly making messes and disasters, and constantly talking back. He is always telling me 'no', and to 'be quiet'. He sometimes hits and kicks me. He throws multiple tantrums per day, sometimes over really ridiculous things. I don't believe in spanking so I've resorted to time-outs and they don't work at all. He needs a total reform on his behavior and I have (some very critical) family members visiting next month and I'm freaking out because I know they're going to be horrified and think I'm a horrible mother for how he acts. I know there is no quick fix so I'll live with the judgment but I'm afraid I don't know how best to handle and discipline him and want to at least feel like I'm making progress with him and have some solid ideas.

 

Any advice?

 

Thanks in advance!

[Mnemosyne]

:grouphug:

 

 

:bigear:

[albeto]

With regards to picking up inappropriate habits, it sounds like if he's not in the environment that rewards these behaviors, they shouldn't continue, so that's one thing you have in your favor right off the bat. In my experience with behavior management (working with autism), I learned that all behavior has a function. None of it is random or pointless. The child may not think about the reasons for acting out a particular way, but that doesn't matter. The brain makes many of our decisions for us and we're just going along for the ride. If that doesn't make sense, ask yourself when was the last time you had to think about breathing or keeping balance when standing, sitting, or walking. Your brain does this without your help, and lots of other things too. A child who throws a temper tantrum does so for a variety of reasons. One is that the words just aren't there to express what s/he wants. One way to address this is to stop everything, get down on eye level, and ask in a calm and courteous way, "Honey, what do you want?" Some times what the child wants can happen after a bit of a wait, sometimes s/he can't have it at all. Explaining this can help, and so too can finding an alternative. Try to maintain your own sense of calm and your child will pick this up as "the thing you do."

 

Another reason a child might tantrum is because it works. Throwing a fit might simply make some adults so uncomfortable they give in to the demand. If a child has learned this, then s/he can learn an alternative: temper tantrums don't do anything at all, but a polite request does. Again, sometimes what the child wants simply isn't possible to give, so distracting with an alternative is good. Sometimes we can ask the child what they'd like as an alternative (while they wait, or to move on). In my opinion, addressing this as a learning opportunity (a social skill lesson that takes place in a natural setting) is more productive and respectful than conditioning through punishment.

 

Good luck!

[catz]

In my experience with behavior management (working with autism), I learned that all behavior has a function. None of it is random or pointless. The child may not think about the reasons for acting out a particular way, but that doesn't matter. The brain makes many of our decisions for us and we're just going along for the ride.

 

 

I could not agree with this more.

 

Some of these behaviors come and go as phases when kids find they fill a need. Having a new sibling is a big change that changes many dynamic. I wouldn't necessarily be super quick to lay blame spending time with some other kids. I'd make sure he is getting plenty of positive attention at home. Is he getting one on one fun/happy time with just you? I'd correct bad behaviors every time (wash-rinse-repeat) but I wouldn't go overboard and lose my temper.

[plath]

As long as no one is getting hurt, we let temper tantrums work themselves out. Then afterwards, when dd is able to communicate again, we talk about what bothered her so much. If hitting is happening, I state that there is no hitting in our house. I will not let you hurt me. And then I move to avoid getting hit and let dd calm down. I don't engage again until someone is getting hurt or she is calm enough to communicate verbally again.

 

If I need to calm down because I'm getting angry and am in danger of losing it myself, I put myself in a sort of time out until I can be calm again myself.

[JNW]

Love and Logic Magic for Early Childhood by Jim fay and Charles Fay

 

I could go into a lot of explanation but it is a very practical and helpful book. You could visit www.http://www.loveandlogic.com/

 

I'm sorry for the difficulty you're having!

[Pamela H in Texas]

I really like parts of the Love and Logic Magic. It is *way* too punitive for my taste. But there are some good principles in it as well as some good tools (especially "uh oh" and banking choices..I copied a post I wrote to another WTM mom here: http://hfamcourse.wordpress.com/2013/05/05/discipline/ ).

 

I don't think most kids can really answer, "what do you want?" I do like the idea of it though. It is important to find what they are needing and meet those needs.

[bolt.]

First, I think you need to work through whatever you need to work through to get out of "blame space" -- your son has gotten much older, and I don't think he picked up this behavior either due to 'bad' cousins, nor should you in any way blame yourself for the impact of your illnesses and/or moving.

 

These things happen. Your son is not the toddler he once was, so it is important to let go of the "why" and focus specifically on who he is now -- as if you just met him. As if what is normal for him actually is normal. Actually, because it IS normal.

 

Second, you need to get out of "fear space" -- these two very strong emotions are clouding your cognitive ability and severely limit your ability to be unfailingly patient, and to be friendly-firm without excess emotionality.

 

Critical people are hard to take, but you need to be very clear with yourself and say, "I WILL do what is right for my son, helping him I the ways he needs help with his behavior because that is what he needs. It will take as long as it takes. If, sometime in the midst of that, some visitors ignorant if all the factors, make an unflattering assessment of both of us -- that is a trouble I will endure. I can handle ill-opinion. I won't let myself become nervous about it."

 

OK -- that doesn't sound like very practical advice, but trust me, it is. Your head-space, your perspective, your emotional state, your hopes and fears -- these things drive your actions, and if you really want to be as effective as possible, since, yes, you would like to see reasonably rapid results... Take this advice first.

 

Not that I don't have concrete advice too...

[albeto]

I could not agree with this more.

 

Some of these behaviors come and go as phases when kids find they fill a need. Having a new sibling is a big change that changes many dynamic. I wouldn't necessarily be super quick to lay blame spending time with some other kids. I'd make sure he is getting plenty of positive attention at home. Is he getting one on one fun/happy time with just you? I'd correct bad behaviors every time (wash-rinse-repeat) but I wouldn't go overboard and lose my temper.

 

 

Do you know, I think my ADD made me so bored of my own reply that I forgot this was the third possible reason I was thinking?

 

To the OP, sometimes temper tantrums are expressions of frustration and anxiety when a child really can't pinpoint what they want. Sometimes, they just want to not feel so.... funky. Spending time with him doing things he enjoys, giving him the opportunity to have pleasant experiences should help relieve any tension he might have.

[Aspasia]

First, I think you need to work through whatever you need to work through to get out of "blame space" -- your son has gotten much older, and I don't think he picked up this behavior either due to 'bad' cousins, nor should you in any way blame yourself for the impact of your illnesses and/or moving.

 

These things happen. Your son is not the toddler he once was, so it is important to let go of the "why" and focus specifically on who he is now -- as if you just met him. As if what is normal for him actually is normal. Actually, because it IS normal.

 

Second, you need to get out of "fear space" -- these two very strong emotions are clouding your cognitive ability and severely limit your ability to be unfailingly patient, and to be friendly-firm without excess emotionality.

 

Critical people are hard to take, but you need to be very clear with yourself and say, "I WILL do what is right for my son, helping him I the ways he needs help with his behavior because that is what he needs. It will take as long as it takes. If, sometime in the midst of that, some visitors ignorant if all the factors, make an unflattering assessment of both of us -- that is a trouble I will endure. I can handle ill-opinion. I won't let myself become nervous about it."

 

OK -- that doesn't sound like very practical advice, but trust me, it is. Your head-space, your perspective, your emotional state, your hopes and fears -- these things drive your actions, and if you really want to be as effective as possible, since, yes, you would like to see reasonably rapid results... Take this advice first.

 

Not that I don't have concrete advice too...

 

 

I can't speak for the op, obviously, but this is such good advice for me right now. I recently realized that much of my parenting behavior is driven by the fear you mentioned--I subconsciously worry about what kind of mom other people think I am (probably because I constantly feel like an inadequate one). Once I realized that, and realized that I don't really, truly, actually care what outsiders think of me, I've been able to make different parenting decisions.

[bolt.]

Of the behaviors you listed, I think I'd rank them this way:

 

1. Interpersonal violence -- against you and others

2. Direct rude words -- at you and others

3. General "back talk" and tactless opinions

4. Tantrums

5. Mess-making

6. Rambunctious play (not confined to places/times when it is acceptable)

 

If you needed to work on them "in order" -- is that the order you would like them "fixed"? Did I miss any?

 

Also, I think I missed it if you posted how old he is now? That makes a differece. I do have some solid strategies for each thing on the list, I just need those few answers first.

 

In the meantime, you need to start by relationship building through play. For about 10 minutes, 3 times a day get down with him and play with him his favorite things -- play as he plays. Play that you are both doggies. Build with blocks... That sort of thing. (Also, if you are Christan, dedicate 5 solid minutes in prayer regarding him, for his blessing, in thankfulness and for wisdom in your relationship with him, specifically.)

 

You will probably also need a hand puppet.

 

More to come...

 

[mysticmomma]

For me I would first identify his "currency " and relate consequences to his actions using his currency. My kids want to be outside more than anything. If school/chores are done they can playas much as they want. However if they geophysical, lie, talk back, etc they lose time. Usually 20 mins per infraction. I give one warning. I do allow them the opportunity to earn back with superb behavior, extra chores or some other laid out item. The terms are set very clearly. My line is drawn in the sand and if crossed I always follow through. Always.

[violamama]

All the above things (your own headspace clearing, love & logic, finding his currency) plus tons and tons and tons of dispassionate do-overs. He says "No" or talks back? You calmly say, "Would you like to try that again?" or "Can you find a polite voice for that?"

 

I find myself saying "We don't speak to each other that way" when my 5 yo tries disrespectful words. That could be helpful to you because you feel some of this is from influences outside your immediate family.

 

It takes a thousand thousand corrections. If you find yourself feeling judged by others, try to keep in mind that in your shoes they would have had a similar hard time. No person, parent, or child is perfect and you've had several curve-balls thrown your way. Try to give yourself grace.

 

ETA: That last paragraph is NOT to say that you or the circumstances necessarily created these current behaviors in your child. He may just be at an independence building & barrier testing stage of development. It's healthy for kids to reach those stages, but that doesn't make it any simpler in the day to day parenting!

 

:grouphug:

[PeacefulChaos]

First off, :grouphug: :)

 

I don't know how much advice I can offer, other than to just stick with it. Maybe remove some privileges? As you said, he's gone through a lot (as have you!) and I think a lot of this sounds like regular stuff as well as just adjustment. I think it's entirely possible that he'll drop the habits he learned from cousins if you continue to let him know that behavior isn't acceptable from him.

The biggest thing I want to say is: I wouldn't worry too much about the family coming to visit and what they'll think. For real. Especially if they have had kids themselves, they should be able to understand that the way kids act is not a direct reflection on the parents. I just want to encourage you in that.

[zoobie]

Sounds like he's had a few rough transitions and lots of change. That's hard for a little guy! Is he 4-5? The behaviors sound pretty developmentally appropriate for his age. Sounds like you've had a rough few months too!

 

I use timeouts for the child to regroup and calm down, not as a punishment.

 

Make sure he's getting lots of exercise. Tired boys are much less likely to be destructive. :)

 

Make sure he's getting lots of positive attention. I read somewhere to aim for ten positive interactions for every negative correction.

 

Help him reframe his feelings in a way that isn't rude/disrespectful. If he yells no, model an appropriate version of what you think he's saying. You're upset that you're not able to play outside right now. Or whatever. He's allowed to have his feelings, but he has to learn how to voice them appropriately.

 

Give him a way to make messes--big, fun messes! Outside, bathtub, etc. Lots of ideas on Pinterest, especially if you search sensory activities. He may not have sensory issues, but the activities are fun for any kiddos.

 

Try and find a way to channel his energy in a positive manner. If he's hearing lots of NOs from you, he's going to say it back. Buddy, you want to throw balls right now? Ok, let's go outside. Balls inside break things. (Explaining and enforcing the house rule without saying no.)

 

When the visitors are there, try to keep his routine as normal as possible.

 

Good luck! :)

[duckens]

--When my daughters hit each other or me, I ask them, "Hey! Why are you hitting me? Am I hitting you?" or "Why are you hitting your sister? Does Mommy hit Daddy? We don't hit in our family." Because we don't spank in our household, we can take the moral high ground on this one.

 

--When dd yells at me, I remind her that I am not yelling at her.

 

--When dd is cranky with me, I remind her that we are kind to people who are trying to help us.

 

--If either dd devolves into a tantrum, I send them to "the tantrum place."

 

"You are throwing a tantrum so it is time for you to go to the tantrum place." Our tantrum place is the big bed (we co-sleep). Dd6 now goes to her own bed sometimes.

 

This now manifests itself in our dd6 that when she is upset (no tantrum yet), she stomps out of the room and slams the door; she puts herself into the tantrum place. I hate that she stomps off like this, but I also think that it is good judgment on her part to know when she needs a break from everything and everyone. Half the time she just falls asleep anyway....which may be a contributing reason for the behavior in the first place.

 

Dd2 has just started tantrums within the last several months. I pick her up and take her to the tantrum place. I return to finish whatever I was in the middle of, or clean whatever mess. Then I go check on my little to give her breastmilk and some talking and cuddling.

 

---------------------------------------------

 

There will always be relatives that do not understand why tantrum behavior cannot be fixed with spankings. I suspect that these adults have selective memory about their own parenting years, and a misunderstanding that the policy that works for some kids does not work for all kids.

 

I hope you find what works for you.

[fairfarmhand]

I've found that tantrums escalate. If I see a child in the beginning stages, I can say, "Oh dear. You look like you are starting to get upset. Let's take a break from .... until we can do it with less frustration." This requires close observation from me.

 

 

For rude speech, try to do a do over with some direction. "oh dear. You asked me so rudely. I need you to say, "May I please have a cookie?" When I get back talk( "NO!" "I don't WANT TO!"), I've learned instead of saying, "Don't tell me NO!" to say, "My, that didn't sound anything like Okay. I think the correct answer was "Sure Mom, I would be glad to do it!"

 

Take the time to explain that you understand his feelings. "Son, I know that it stinks when we have to do x. But maybe later we can play a little longer with the blocks. ":

 

Caveat: I do occasionally spank my kids. (not saying it's right or wrong for your family) But with my younger two, I started to use the above tactics and we seldom get to the point of spanking.

 

BTW, don't worry too much about what your family says about your disciplinary tools. Personally, if I see a parent addressing bad behavior and not ignoring it, I don't care about whether or not they are spanking. As long as you are correcting him, that is what matters.

[butterflymommy]

For me I would first identify his "currency " and relate consequences to his actions using his currency. My kids want to be outside more than anything. If school/chores are done they can playas much as they want. However if they geophysical, lie, talk back, etc they lose time. Usually 20 mins per infraction. I give one warning. I do allow them the opportunity to earn back with superb behavior, extra chores or some other laid out item. The terms are set very clearly. My line is drawn in the sand and if crossed I always follow through. Always.

 

 

This is pretty much what we do. Find their currency and take it away without remorse when they break the rules. Give the opportunity to earn the currency back through excellent behavior, cleaning jobs, apologies (that at least sound sincere), or extra schoolwork.

 

Make sure the rules, expectation, and consequences are exactly laid out. Don't wing it and don't back down. Have it all planned out to the last detail before you show your child the new law of the land.

 

Also, don't act stressed and emotional when they freak out. Stay cool as a cucumber, but stern.

[Shahrazad]

Thank you all for the advice. I see a lot of excellent food for thought and quite a few ideas I hadn't thought of previously that I think would be really beneficial to implement.

 

I really don't blame the cousins. They are great kids too (with great parents), just a totally different personality than what I am used to from him so the change seemed sudden. However, it also corresponded with the 'age' and a lot of things going on so I don't think anyone is really the cause in the end.

 

In the meantime, you need to start by relationship building through play. For about 10 minutes, 3 times a day get down with him and play with him his favorite things -- play as he plays. Play that you are both doggies. Build with blocks... That sort of thing. (Also, if you are Christan, dedicate 5 solid minutes in prayer regarding him, for his blessing, in thankfulness and for wisdom in your relationship with him, specifically.)

 

You know this as well as the mention of spending more one-on-one time with him throughout the day really stood out to me because my son has never been jealous of his baby brother and actually adores having him around. I've never seen a child who is so NOT jealous. So, I think in this, I did lose the recognition that he is not really ever getting 100% undivided attention from me as I'm always multi-tasking or have DS2 with me while we are together and he really does need some one-on-one time with me. I feel really bad now that I've thought of this and I'm not sure why I missed it. Also, I think we haven't really gotten into a consistent routine since the move and that is a MUST for him. He is the type of kid who needs routine: if you do something for 4 days in a row and then don't do it the 5th day he will be really upset and throwing tantrums as a result, so this uncertainty of doing things differently every day is probably putting him on edge too.

 

The prayer idea above is a great one! I really love that idea and even though I am Muslim, I can definitely use it and, I'm not sure if you meant privately or not, but I actually think it would be a good idea to pray with him (for blessing and thankfulness) because it will not only instill a love for prayer but will kind of indirectly show him how loved he is and how much he means to me that I think of him and include him in my prayer and thank God for him.

 

My son is 4 although his birthday is coming up in September. I think things are often made more difficult because he's always been really bright but a bit asynchronous and has always been a bit behind in terms of communicating his thoughts/expressing his feelings verbally so he gets frustrated by that. I think the fact that we are a bilingual household who, up until recently, spoke almost exclusively Arabic in the household so he'd have the accent right and the fact that I'm personally less expressive with emotional or feeling talk in Arabic than English have contributed to this difficulty. I started speaking English with him mostly now and leaving DH to speak Arabic with him most of the time for now in hopes of helping him feel more comfortable communicating in either language.

[Lucy]

The one-on-one time suggestion really speaks to me today - thanks for this thread!