do you still drill phonics for a strong 4 year old reader?

[Porridge]

My DD is 4 (soon to be 5). She is a strong reader (has read the first 3 Little House books since January and is plowing her way through the 4th book now). When we were teaching her to read, I used a phonics-based approach, but now phonics are second nature to her and she doesn't seem to consciously remember the phonetic rules. We will start slightly more structured homeschooling this fall (when she would technically start K). It seems like most K level language arts programs stress phonics. Is there still a need for me to review phonics? I think it would be tedious and boring but I can see how it will help with spelling down the line. I actually don't plan to work on spelling at all with her during her K year - (her handwriting is not as strong, so making her write out spelling lists will be frustrating). I was planning to focus language arts for her K year more on reading comprehension, vocabulary and some basic grammar (probably FLL on an interest - led basis). Ok to skip the phonics?

[SKL]

I would skip it or just use some good poetry to draw attention to / practice it.

[Kerileanne99]

Another option- for my dd (3.5) who recently finished reading Charlotte's Web, we use AAS. As a phonics -based spelling program, I can reassure myself that nothing is overlooked, but we do much of the 'writing' of spelling words with the letter tiles and a spelling app on iPad...she can quickly spell out her words, and we can reinforce with handwriting practice at another time- or not, as meaningful writing (such as letters to Grandma!) are more enticing for that purpose...

The spelling app we use ( in the moveable alphabet portion) is called 'L'Escapadou presents Montessori Crosswords'

[kiwik]

I have seen it recommended a lot of times to just add in a phonics based spelling programme once writing is established or you decide to do spelling.

[Tanikit]

I stopped phonics with my DD when she was 4 years old as she knew all the rules - I do however still at 5.5 years old make her read aloud to me every day and if she sticks on any word then I make sure that she is sounding it out correctly - this is all the phonics she needs for reading. We are however doing phonics-based spelling however I am doing dictation only spelling - no lists. If I want to give her a break from handwriting then I use bottle cap letters for spelling or get her to spell out loud in the car.

 

I believe if your child continues to read more advanced books then they must automatically be practising some form of phonics - there is no way they could figure out those long words without using some phonics. (I know my DD has a huge vocabulary and can figure out many aspects by context, but she still must rely on phonics too)

[Five More Minutes]

I moved to phonics-based spelling (AAS) once my 4 y/o was a fluent reader. I think I waited until she was 5.5 y/o before seeing if she'd like to use pencil and paper for dictation -- until then she just used tiles or we wrote together on the whiteboard.

[2smartones]

We stopped phonics after about 3 or 4 years old and moved on to Sequential Spelling. We did it orally, because neither of my boys were writing well enough at 4 or 5 to write spelling words, either. I think it's important to go ahead and start working on spelling, but it's not important to stress over writing until physical ability matures.

[Crimson Wife]

If your DD is that strong a reader, then I would recommend piecing together your LA rather than trying an all-in-one program. AAS is easy to adapt to just use the letter tiles. Grammar you could do a condensed version of FLL 1/2 (what I did with my oldest) or wait until 1st and start Michael Clay Thompson's "island" level (what I did with my 2nd). For reading comp, I use Charlotte Mason and WWE type narrations until my kids are older and have to start taking standardized tests.

[waa510]

My oldest was also a strong reader at 4. I started AAS shortly after she took off reading and it was a great way to reassure me that her phonics was solid. I also had her read aloud to me frequently ( usually our current chapter of science or SOTW) so I could check her comprehension and sounding-out ability for larger words. The words she tends to get stuck on when reading aloud now are certain ones of foreign origins ( French, etc) so the pronunciation doesn't follow our English phonetic rules. I wouldn't waste your time or energy on continuing a phonics program.

[hollyh]

I wouldn't do a phonics program either. I would do AAS though... this year w/ tiles or next year.

[Barbara H]

Ok to skip the phonics?

 

 

We skipped it entirely and nothing bad happened as a result. If she seems to need it for spelling later do it later.

[junepep]

I moved to phonics-based spelling (AAS) once my 4 y/o was a fluent reader. I think I waited until she was 5.5 y/o before seeing if she'd like to use pencil and paper for dictation -- until then she just used tiles or we wrote together on the whiteboard.

 

I fifth(?) not drilling it and just going on to AAS or some other gentle spelling program. I did the same thing as five more minutes, except instead of just using letter tiles I wound up using it as our "handwriting" program, so we started with 3-4 words that she'd have to write in her very neatest handwriting and we would practice 3-5 letter formations on a letter of the day that needed work (she'd picked up how to make most letters from reading though, so if your daughter hasn't then this might not work).

 

I've done such a slow introduction to writing because it was so painful for me to write as a child, it's probably slowed down her spelling progress, but it's been worth it to me to see her smile about writing. Plus the slow progress has helped to solidify some of the weirder phonics rules and corrected a speech problem that I hadn't noticed (she'd been pronouncing L as W and TH as F -- o.O she'd just sounded a bit slurry sometimes when she spoke, but it really turned up in her spelling).

[Job384]

We skipped it. Age-wise, the son I'm talking about is in K. I gave him the DORA test not long ago, and he topped out the reading, so I'd say it didn't hurt him at all. We don't do spelling yet, but he spells on a fourth grade level. You might find that she starts figuring out spelling on her own, so you may not even need to do that.

 

We weren't sure what to do for the reading portion of K since our son could already read. He wanted to learn Greek, so we had him learn to read Greek this year. Worked out great! Just another option.

[Kerileanne99]

I also just wanted to add that if you do choose to go the phonics-based AAS route, you may find that your dd blows right through several levels fairly rapidly! Because my dd is 3.5, I was reluctant to test for level and wanted to start from the beginning...but ended up really accelerating through until we found a place to slow down a bit in the middle of level two. She seemed to internalize the rules and intuit the spelling. I think this tends to happen with many strong readers, so fair warning:)

[Porridge]

If your DD is that strong a reader, then I would recommend piecing together your LA rather than trying an all-in-one program. AAS is easy to adapt to just use the letter tiles. Grammar you could do a condensed version of FLL 1/2 (what I did with my oldest) or wait until 1st and start Michael Clay Thompson's "island" level (what I did with my 2nd). For reading comp, I use Charlotte Mason and WWE type narrations until my kids are older and have to start taking standardized tests.

 

 

Thank you all for these very helpful replies! I'm obviously new to the forum.... is AAS All About Spelling? Also, why did you decide to switch from FLL to Michael Clay Thompson?

[Mergath]

I asked pretty much the same question not long ago and got a lot of helpful replies:

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/464957-kids-that-read-well-but-hate-phonics/

 

Dd can read books at around a fourth grade level at this point, so we've decided to shelve phonics and try AAS and work on reading comprehension for K next year. As far as phonics goes, we were only just starting silent e words when dd began reading chapters out of novels that were lying around, so obviously the phonics instruction was almost useless anyway. :p I'm starting to think the cats taught her when I wasn't looking, lol.

[Five More Minutes]

 

Thank you all for these very helpful replies! I'm obviously new to the forum.... is AAS All About Spelling? Also, why did you decide to switch from FLL to Michael Clay Thompson?

 

You're right -- AAS is All About Spelling. As a pp mentioned, brace yourself to go through the lower levels at a fairly rapid rate.

 

I switched from FLL to MCT after using FLL 1 in K and FLL 2 in Gr. 1. FLL was easy and gentle at that age. When my strong reader started Gr. 2, however, I was ready to switch to something else. FLL was repetitive and, I was afraid, wasn't leading to her being able to use any of the memorized definitions. MCT seemed to offer a different way of presenting grammar, so I switched, and am so glad. For this girl, MCT has fed her passion for words and has made grammar one of the highlights of her day.

 

I know that people can and successfully do start MCT earlier than Gr. 2, but in my opinion a child gets more from it if they have a lot of reading under their belt, are reading fluently at at least a Gr. 4+ level, and are able and willing to write two or three sentences at a time. For us, that happened in Gr. 2.

[quiltymamma]

What do you use to figure out what grade level your child is reading at? Everything I've looked at is so vastly different, some 2nd grade levels are the same as other 4th grade ones? Any suggestions?

[junepep]

I pick up several different books at the high end of the grade level that I think that she's at from the library. I use lexile ranges, to determine grade level but there's a huge amount of controversy over which measures are accurate. Once she has the book in her hand I ask her to read a page at the beginning and a page or two in the middle out loud to me. I check to make sure that she doesn't have more than 5 reading errors and then ask her to narrate the passage back to me. After she's done with her narration I ask her a specific question or two about the passage that would have to be inferred from the reading, but perhaps not directly stated to ensure comprehension. If she aces it all then I bump her up a level and check again the following week, and I just keep going until I find something that's a challenge to read-a-loud &/or has challenging vocabulary, but isn't causing her to struggle and call that her readinglevel.

 

We love the Scholastic Book Wizard to help us find books in the right age/reading bracket (because a lot of material at Kit's reading level is wildly inappropriate), there are many books listed, not only those published by scholastic: http://www.scholastic.com/bookwizard/

 

As for MCT, I'd second that you want your child to be reading at a strong 4th+ grade level before asking them to do MCT. Even then you might find that they would benefit from waiting another year. There's a bit of memorization and their output levels should be fairly high (even if they're just narrating their stories and decoding the sentences to you out-loud, eg - one of the assignments is to create a story about a part of speech which illustrates it's nature). That said, we started early and I don't regret it so far, although we do go very slowly. I'm hoping to drag it out for at least two years and then do a creative writing year before starting Town :). After looking through FLL and some of the other early books at the store I decided that I'd rather supplement the heck out of MCT than use something that wouldn't work for us.

[Porridge]

wow, super helpful. Thank you!

[Crimson Wife]

I actually tried FLL 1/2 with my DS, but gave up after about a month when it became clear that it wasn't working for him at all. He is a visio-spatial learner and was having ZERO retention with the auditory-based FLL. So I finished out his K year having him watch Grammar Rock cartoons, reading Brian P. Cleary books, and playing Mad Libs. FLL worked very well for my oldest DD, however, so it was a case of bad "fit" rather than a bad program.

[stripe]

Once my kids were able to read most things, I stopped. Then I picked it up again in spelling.