ugh! Just what I needed......doubt about decisions. :(

[8filltheheart]

11th grade ds just got home from his last final at the university. He had to go in a meet with his physics professor b/c the class he was going to sign up for in the fall is not being offered and he wasn't sure what to do. The professor grilled ds as to why he doesn't go ahead and graduate. He thinks it is a mistake for ds to continue taking courses as a dual-enrolled high school student and told him he should be taking courses elsewhere. He told him he made the highest grade in the class and that the courses are not meeting his needs.

 

Well, great. First, it is too late to apply elsewhere anyway. Second, there are no other local options. Third, there really aren't any other options local or otherwise.

 

We aren't pro graduating early. But, now I am worried that maybe we really have made a mistake. (we already knew the math courses at this university were too easy.)

 

So.....have we completely messed up? I am not sure what we can do about it even if we have. :( This guidance counselor stuff can really stink at times.

[Belacqua]

Ah, don't you just hate that? Doubt stinks. But, as my husband reminds me when I get jittery, "Stay the course."

 

What does your son think?

 

As you said: it's too late to apply to most schools at this point in the year. While that's sobering if you're feeling like you made a mistake, it's also kind of liberating. A decision you don't have to make now.

 

As for maxing out classes: would your son consider some kind of research? Maybe that nosyboots professor would be wiling to mentor a project. There's also MIT's OpenCourseware; we've used several of their classes and have been really pleased with them.

 

For what it's worth, it doesn't sound to me like you've messed up at all (and I don't say that just because we're also not pro-early graduation :)).

[Miss Marple]

 

As you said: it's too late to apply to most schools at this point in the year. While that's sobering if you're feeling like you made a mistake, it's also kind of liberating. A decision you don't have to make now.

 

As for maxing out classes: would your son consider some kind of research? Maybe that nosyboots professor would be wiling to mentor a project.

 

For what it's worth, it doesn't sound to me like you've messed up at all (and I don't say that just because we're also not pro-early graduation :)).

 

 

I agree! You really can't move him on to the university so don't sweat it right now. And, really, this just goes to show how good of a job you have done with him! Congratulations!

 

As far as what to do next: I would explore options at the school that are in areas that may be a little out of his comfort zone or natural bent. Does he excel in all academic areas? My boys have a harder time in courses that require a lot of writing...so, for them I would look at that type of course. I also think the idea of doing research is fantastic! That could make a tremendous transcript addition.

[goldberry]

There is so much more to maturing than academics. I let DD basically skip 8th grade because she was ahead in Math and Science. She still lacks a maturity level. I'm not sure I would do it again if I could go back. She will be graduating a year early, and I'm not sure she will be ready for college on an emotional and social level.

 

Some kids mature faster than others though. But that should be factored into things.

[Muttichen]

Is there some kind of internship he could do next year? That's what we have our kids do in 12th grade when they have done everything at the CC. It gives them a nice break before college, recommendations, and something to write about on their college essays. If there's not a ready-made internship available, or if it's too late to apply. you can put something together if you are creative. My oldest daughter loves history, so she volunteered at a local historical home giving tours a couple of afternoons a week, she volunteered archiving papers at the local historical society a couple of mornings a week, and she had a paid position doing historical research with a group at the community college. My next three have done more traditional internships at a government research lab. There are lots of options!

[Kathy in Richmond]

Doesn't the local university have a good linear algebra class? And there are still more AoPS and EPGY math & physics offerings that could keep him busy at home for another year, or AP Bio through PA Homeschoolers (yeah, I know he doesn't like bio any more than my kids, but it was a good grade 12 challenge & not as dreadful as they feared). I think he'd love the challenge of a reading class in Latin, too. I know you prefer doing humanities at home, but maybe he could try a dual enrollment in a social science area for challenge? It would prepare him for college, give him some classroom face time, & also give him a letter of reference possibility from somebody not in math/science. Maybe he'll get some additional ideas from SSP this summer. Add in volunteer work or a part time job, and he could have a satisfying and worthwhile senior year!

 

ETA: How about working towards physics olympiad next year?

[Wildcat]

.

[snowbeltmom]

Following up on some of the suggestions that you have received so far:

Olympiad Physics

My son is thinking of competing in the Physics Olympiad next year. I have spoken with an instructor at MathZoom and will be signing my son up for their Physics I course this fall. http://www.mathzoom.org/year-round-classes/locations/online#PhyOlym2

If your son is interested, MathZoom has an advanced Olympiad class. I am not sure if it is advanced enough for your son, but here is the info:

Physics Challenge III

Preparation for the higher stage of the USA Physics Olympiad (USAPhO), the “Semi-Final†Exam. This course requires detailed familiarity with basic physical principles (at the AP Physics C level or higher), some experience with competition problem solving, and a desire to compete in Physics competitions at a national level. Topics will include all area of Physics, mostly following the International Physics Olympiad (IPhO) syllabus: classical mechanics, thermodynamics and molecular physics, oscillations and waves, electric charge, physics of electronic circuits, electromagnetic fields and waves, and basic modern physics. The course will focus on writing valid and coherent free-response solutions (like the Semi-Final Exam). We will review other useful techniques including dimensional analysis, answer reasonableness, and introduction to modern physics research. The goal is for each member of the class to do very well on the F=ma exam and to be nationally competitive on the USAPhO Semi-Final Exam. While the course will focus on USAPhO preparation, the material will be useful for Physics Quiz Bowl and other Science Bowls, AP Physics, SAT II:Physics, first-year college physics, and (competition) problem solving generally, allowing the techniques and advantages gained in this course to transcend into many other areas. International students will also find this useful for their own regional and national Physics Competitions.

Mathematics

I have been looking for classes beyond AP Calc BC. My son will be taking AoPS Intermediate C&P class, but I would also like him to continue with calculus. I have not read positive reviews for either CTY or epgy, but I have received a couple of positive reviews from members on College Confidential for NetMath at the University of Illinois. One poster told me that the online math classes her son took from NetMath in high school were at a higher level than the ones he took at his four-year state school. These classes also incorporate Mathmatica into the lessons and problems sets. In addition to multivariable calc, NetMath offers linear algebra and a calc based stats and probability class. Upon completion, the student also receives credit from the University of Illinois.

https://netmath.illinois.edu/node/23?stu=hs

I am not sure if your son will find any of this useful, but I thought I would mention it just in case.

[regentrude]

I don't think you have messed up! And I don't think graduating early is the necessary path for your son.

Can he take some classes that will be requirements, and get them out of the way to free up time? Such as the required freshman Composition, US history, or chemistry?

Could he take a programming class? If he goes into physics, this is an extremely useful skill to have, and it will most likely be required.

Could he take some math classes off the beaten path?

Could he do a research project with a professor at the university next semester? he should ask what opportunities they have available for undergraduate research.

 

Just because this professor suggests to graduate early does not mean you have to scramble to make it happen; you have given more thought to his development as a whole person, and you have reasons for not wanting him to graduate early that this person does not know.

I think dual enrollment and still being homeschooled for senior year is great because it gives him a lot of freedom and flexibility. He may not be able to progress in his planned physics sequence, but he WILL have an interesting and educational; senior year.

[MicheleinMN]

No, you haven't messed up. Another year at the CC isn't going to hurt him, and there isn't any way to get him enrolled anywhere else anyway. It will all work out. (And yes, I hate the guidance counselor role almost as much as that of administrator.) Please don't let someone else cause you to doubt your choices. If there are no other options, then what you are doing IS the right choice.

[8filltheheart]

Thanks everyone for your responses. I just feel so out of my league with this ds that I am constantly wondering what path he should be taking. It isn't hard to get me confused right now b/c I am already stressing about college apps in the fall. :crying:

 

I have contacted Math Zoom about the physics olympiad challenge courses. I think that is a great idea and one he would enjoy. He also would really enjoy Latin translations. I'm not quite sure how we would go about that one. I am going to have him contact the Latin dept at the university and ask them about about the subject test or credit by exam and see if he can pursue that route.

 

LOL about the biology. That one he would place akin to torture. I don't think I could convince him that one was a good idea. As a matter of fact, he is perfectly happy continuing status quo (after all, he is nothing more than a typical teenage boy!) He really enjoyed the physics class this semester, especially the lab. He liked the math class; but even I could tell it was easy for him. He studied a lot for his physics final, but barely spent any time prepping for the diffEQ exam (or prepping for that class in general all semester).

 

I am going to suggest that he follows up with making an appt with one of the physicists about research opportunities. He was going to do that for this summer, but now that he is going to be gone to physics camps all summer, he was going to wait until fall. Maybe he should go ahead and see if he can arrange for something in the fall now.

 

Computer programming is a good idea. I looked into opencourseware programming classes a while ago, but never followed through. His only programming is with Python.

 

Thanks for the encouragement. Inside I know this is the right decision. It just un-nerved me when ds came home and told me what was said. Deep breath. Exhale. I just need to dig into my creative side and spur ds in that direction as well.

 

(ETA: dh just got home and he suggested that ds might see if he could take an electrical or mechanical engineering class. Engineering is not something this ds has ever expressed interest in, but it might be an interesting area for him to just explore. We would need to go online and see if the engineering courses have admission into the engineering program or intro to engineering in order to register for them.)

[8filltheheart]

Ds is not here tonight, but I looked at some of the possible engineering options. He can't take any electrical or mechanical classes b/c you do have to be in the dept. But, it looks like you can take general engineering courses as long as you have the pre-reqs.

 

Do you think a course like this be a good idea or probably not? I guess I am wondering if I should even suggest it???

 

EG 220 Electrical Circuits 3 cr

Steady-state AC and DC circuit analysis; balanced 3-phase systems; transformers; AC/DC motors and AC generators; operational amplifiers; and digital system components.

[regentrude]

Ds is not here tonight, but I looked at some of the possible engineering options. He can't take any electrical or mechanical classes b/c you do have to be in the dept. But, it looks like you can take general engineering courses as long as you have the pre-reqs.

 

Do you think a course like this be a good idea or probably not? I guess I am wondering if I should even suggest it???

 

It entirely depends on your son's interest. He may love it. Or he may hate it.

I am a physicist, and I hate electronics with a passion. I had take some practical electronics course for physicists, and it was torture. I am a theorist at heart ;-)

But then again, maybe he enjoys it.

 

Have you looked into programming courses at the university? Our physics majors have to take a computer science class; there is a watered down version for science majors and a more rigorous one for comp sci majors - those who actually want to learn something take the one for comp sci majors.

[Kathy in Richmond]

Ds is not here tonight, but I looked at some of the possible engineering options. He can't take any electrical or mechanical classes b/c you do have to be in the dept. But, it looks like you can take general engineering courses as long as you have the pre-reqs.

 

Do you think a course like this be a good idea or probably not? I guess I am wondering if I should even suggest it???

 

That sounds like something that he might like. Does it come with a lab component? Are there no physics department courses at the right level next fall? How about the 3rd semester of calc-based physics (usually modern physics)?

 

Some other thoughts I had while making dinner & getting a haircut & tutoring (LOL; you have me thinking about him tonight):

 

Lone Pine has a great looking Latin Prose 3/4 level course proposed for next year.

 

AP Stats with Blue Hen through PA Homeschoolers (really fun & useful for L & you know that they like the same sorts of things...)

 

Your local state boarding school for math & science has 3 physics PhDs on the faculty. Give them a call & see what they suggest; they're used to working with advanced high schoolers. Who knows, maybe they'd let him sit in on one of their courses? (their catalog looks wonderful!)

 

How about a big project at home if research doesn't pan out? Making a telescope would be fun & feasible I think. The mathcamp kids usually make a simple version every summer. I bet that would give him some valuable hands-on experience.

 

Yes to the MathZoom class link for the physics olympiad classes! He needs that kind of advanced problem solving, even if it sounds like the same topics he's studied this year. You can learn a LOT more by ramping up the difficulty level of the problems.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I think an appointment now to discuss hands on work possibilities might be good even if he's not trying to get a place until fall or spring. There might be a long lead time on setting this up.

[8filltheheart]

It entirely depends on your son's interest. He may love it. Or he may hate it.

I am a physicist, and I hate electronics with a passion. I had take some practical electronics course for physicists, and it was torture. I am a theorist at heart ;-)

But then again, maybe he enjoys it.

 

Have you looked into programming courses at the university? Our physics majors have to take a computer science class; there is a watered down version for science majors and a more rigorous one for comp sci majors - those who actually want to learn something take the one for comp sci majors.

 

 

He is a theorist in his heart. That is for sure! I think that is why while his dad and brother are engineers, he really has no interest in engineering at all.

 

The problem with the computer science is that dual enrolled students do not get to actually register for classes until all other students have....basically they get to register just a few days before classes start. The computer science classes get full almost as soon as enrollment opens. It is why his sister got stuck in the completely online CS class that she hated this semester. I'm not hopeful that any class along those lines that he wanted would have any openings. The flip side is that the math and physics classes he wants are not really in high demand (and at this point, I know that even if they were full that I don't think he would have a problem asking the professors if they would sign an over-ride.)

 

 

That sounds like something that he might like. Does it come with a lab component? Are there no physics department courses at the right level next fall? How about the 3rd semester of calc-based physics (usually modern physics)?

 

Some other thoughts I had while making dinner & getting a haircut & tutoring (LOL; you have me thinking about him tonight):

 

Lone Pine has a great looking Latin Prose 3/4 level course proposed for next year.

 

AP Stats with Blue Hen through PA Homeschoolers (really fun & useful for L & you know that they like the same sorts of things...)

 

Your local state boarding school for math & science has 3 physics PhDs on the faculty. Give them a call & see what they suggest; they're used to working with advanced high schoolers. Who knows, maybe they'd let him sit in on one of their courses? (their catalog looks wonderful!)

 

How about a big project at home if research doesn't pan out? Making a telescope would be fun & feasible I think. The mathcamp kids usually make a simple version every summer. I bet that would give him some valuable hands-on experience.

 

Yes to the MathZoom class link for the physics olympiad classes! He needs that kind of advanced problem solving, even if it sounds like the same topics he's studied this year. You can learn a LOT more by ramping up the difficulty level of the problems.

 

 

He had planned on registering for Modern Physics, but the dept decided not to offer it next semester b/c they don't have enough students needing it. It is going to be offered in the spring. His physics professor told him to register for Mechanics 1 which is what he will do. It was the professo'rs comments that made me wonder if it is enough of a challenge. When ds got home last night, I finally had an opportunity to really talk to him w/o distractions. (C is sick, so yesterday during the day, "real" communication was not really happening.) He looked at me like I had 2 heads when I started talking about thinking he should consider different options. He said that he really learned a lot in the physics class this semester. He felt it was a much more challenging environment here than in VA (that really surprised me.) He said he really did work hard to make the grades that he did. (I think that is relative, though. ;) It definitely wasn't AoPS level of challenging thinking!!) He also pointed out what all he will be taking next yr......he is right. After we went through everything, he is taking a full load as a 12th grader (though a lot of it is b/c of his personal choices.)

 

I think the physics olympiad and seeing if he can get involved in a research project are the 2 best options.

 

 

I think an appointment now to discuss hands on work possibilities might be good even if he's not trying to get a place until fall or spring. There might be a long lead time on setting this up.

 

 

That is a really good point. I think he needs to go back to campus before exam week is over and start making contact now.

 

After sleeping on it, I feel a lot better. This ds is very mature, but he really enjoys just being a teenager, too. It is wonderful watching him just hang out and goof off with friends. Yes, I needed to remind myself that there is so much more to these decisions than just school. This goes to the heart of our beliefs......he has his entire future to be an adult, but only next yr to be a high school sr.

[regentrude]

The problem with the computer science is that dual enrolled students do not get to actually register for classes until all other students have....basically they get to register just a few days before classes start. The computer science classes get full almost as soon as enrollment opens.

OK, so that's out. He could still learn programming without a class; you don't learn it from lectures anyway, but by actually programming a project. But it sounds as if he hs enough planned for his senior year.

 

His physics professor told him to register for Mechanics 1 which is what he will do. It was the professo'rs comments that made me wonder if it is enough of a challenge.

 

Is that Theoretical Physics, the Mechanics part? If so, that can be a great course! One of my all time favorites.

 

He said that he really learned a lot in the physics class this semester. He felt it was a much more challenging environment here than in VA (that really surprised me.) He said he really did work hard to make the grades that he did. (I think that is relative, though. ;) It definitely wasn't AoPS level of challenging thinking!!)

 

I think there is a lot to be learned in a college class aside from doing hard problems. We have just been through that with DD; she finished the second semester calculus based physics class and performed among the top students (she did so well that she does not need to take the final exam to get her A). She definitely worked hard and learned a lot, but she was not constantly intellectually challenged by super hard problems at the limit of her ability: much of the hard work consisted in being a diligent student and following through with every class and lab and assignment for an entire semester. It was not AoPS level thinking that was required for success, but it was continuous work, keeping up, preparing assignments, staying on top of things and not running out of steam halfway through.

My experience as an instructor is that these skills are the ones who make the successful college student, not raw intellectual ability. So, I completely understand what your son is saying by working hard to make the grade - it is just a different kind of hard work than puzzling out a challenging AoPS problem.

 

The most important thing for me would be my student's opinion: if he feels he learned and worked hard and grew, then it was a valuable class!

Sounds like he'll be having a great Senior year.

[G5052]

After sleeping on it, I feel a lot better. This ds is very mature, but he really enjoys just being a teenager, too. It is wonderful watching him just hang out and goof off with friends. Yes, I needed to remind myself that there is so much more to these decisions than just school. This goes to the heart of our beliefs......he has his entire future to be an adult, but only next yr to be a high school sr.

 

 

Also professors and college personnel aren't always right. Truly. And they are not *your* kid's parent. They have an institutional view of education too, and don't necessarily see the big picture of being a teenager.

 

After having taught at the local community college for over a decade now, I frankly am not a big fan of early graduation in most cases. Of course it sometimes works out just fine, but sometimes it is a disaster that takes years to recover from. Mostly I keep my mouth shut, but when people ask, I usually advise them to take their time with high school. Friends who have done that have told me that they had no regrets when looking back. You can up the level with tutors, online classes, and a few college classes.

 

And over the years I've seen multiple times that SWB agrees with this. She's also a proponent of gap years between high school and college in order to get them more time to mature in ways not taught in school. I'm not sure if we'll do that or not, but it is in my mind as we near the end.

[8filltheheart]

Is that Theoretical Physics, the Mechanics part? If so, that can be a great course! One of my all time favorites.

 

I think there is a lot to be learned in a college class aside from doing hard problems. .....much of the hard work consisted in being a diligent student and following through with every class and lab and assignment for an entire semester. It was not AoPS level thinking that was required for success, but it was continuous work, keeping up, preparing assignments, staying on top of things and not running out of steam halfway through.

My experience as an instructor is that these skills are the ones who make the successful college student, not raw intellectual ability. So, I completely understand what your son is saying by working hard to make the grade - it is just a different kind of hard work than puzzling out a challenging AoPS problem.

 

The most important thing for me would be my student's opinion: if he feels he learned and worked hard and grew, then it was a valuable class!

Sounds like he'll be having a great Senior year.

 

Thank you for all of these thoughts. Sometimes it is hard to remember these things since ds is incredibly diligent and self-motivated.....but he is still just a teenager and there is lot of learning about life in general going on.

 

BTW, he was very happy to find out that Mechanics was one of your favorite classes! :)