wow, lots of people doing WWS1 with WAY older kids-should I wait for ds? What to do in meantime?

[HappyGrace]

I was hoping to do it next yr in 5th w/ ds. Sounds like I should wait til 6th or later? What's your favorite grade to do it in?

 

He has had 2 yrs of IEW but is not a huge writer, average student. I like WWS for the "thinking through" of writing.

 

Can't figure out what to use in the meantime that would maybe be like a WWS "light"-to start giving those foundational skills. I don't use WWE-we do narration, etc. on our own. Dictation has not shown much value w/ this kiddo.

[SilverMoon]

There isn't really anything else out there like WWS, and the higher levels aren't out yet. I think it's getting used with older kids because of the same reason people don't start the R&S English series at the higher levels. On the flip side kids that have done R&S or WTM-style writing all along never noticed the work getting difficult; they were the frog in the boiling pot of water.

 

There are plenty of fifth graders using it too. My DD beta tested it as a fifth grader and never struggled. She'd only done homemade writing based on the old WTM instructions and Classical Writing's Aesop levels before that. She was an average writer by that point, though she'd struggled with narration in grammar stage.

 

Personally I'd just start WWS. It's written for four days a week, and the first two are generally pretty light. You could stretch the last one across two days if needed. And there'd be no harm in stretching it through the summer or even finishing it in sixth grade.

[boscopup]

I'm going to give it a try in 5th grade. If it proves to be too much, we'll shelve it and do something else. Like anything else, all kids are different. My son will have used IEW for 2 years by that point, and he'll have done WWE1-3 and some R&S English 4 and 5 writing lessons. I have that long sample that was released long ago (something like 14 weeks of it?), so I'll give it a good look before we start and see if my son is ready. He might surprise me and rise up to the challenge. ;)

[Chrysalis Academy]

I agree, why not try it? If it's too much you can always shelve it for awhile. My advice would be to go at a pace that works for your son - so stretch the longer assignments out over 2 or 3 days - and take breaks if and when he gets burned out to apply the skills learned to writing about his own topics.

 

We did the first 10 lessons in the spring of 4th grade, and will have completed all but 7 weeks (the research & final project) which I'm saving for the start of 6th grade. In between we've done Paragraph Town and the first half of Essay Voyage, and applied the lessons to different kinds of projects - she's written about books she's read, and written descriptions of places, and procedures, and she does outlines in history. It's been great. I'm glad we started it when we did, but I'm glad we haven't rushed it, either.

[HappyGrace]

Dd now 13 beta tested part of it in 5th grade and it was no problem. But now I do see how waiting til a bit later might have made it even more effective.

 

So that's partly why I'm wondering on waiting. I think he *could* do it now prbly, but when is the most effective age?

[Halcyon]

We are using it in 5th but taking it a bit slow--started it towards the end of 4th and will likely finish by the summer. I can see reasons for delaying it, but DS has really improved in his writing skills.

[SoCal Sandra]

I agree that the reason you are seeing it used by older students may be because it wasn't available when they were younger.

 

SWB's production schedule has always been about one year late for my dss (if I look at the recommended age to begin the curricululm) but I have always used her materials one year later simply because they are so good! That being said, if the materials had been available when my sons were younger I would have used them.

 

I think your observations are really just a reflection of the quality and adaptability of WWS. HTH.

[texasmama]

My current 6th grader is using it and not struggling. Language arts is the area he struggles in, but he has had no issues independently completing the assignments. Caveat - we are on about Week 12, due to getting a late start. I will use it next year with my then 5th grader and do not expect any issues.

[HappyGrace]

Oh, good, so you're not feeling any of the writing is too long? Do your kids type or hand-write the assignments?

 

I'm feeling encouraged to maybe just jump in and try it! I'm glad to hear that it really improves their writing.

[fluffybunny]

My ds did it last year, in 6th grade, and it was a huge struggle. Mainly because he is not an independent worker. I persisted and persisted, but I wish so much now I had waited at least another year. Many others share this view; that a child will get a lot more out of it if used later. I'd say the ideal would be 7th, even 8th. I should have spent far more time in 6th with narrations. Now I have to go back to narration to fill in some of those gaps.

 

We got all the way through to the independent project in WWS, then swapped to IEW-B. IEW was SO easy after WWS! Ds, now 7th, has no trouble at all with IEW, and he also writes his own stories inbetween lessons.

[Sleep-Deprived]

Oh, good, so you're not feeling any of the writing is too long? Do your kids type or hand-write the assignments?

 

I'm feeling encouraged to maybe just jump in and try it! I'm glad to hear that it really improves their writing.

My ds is finishing up WWS1 and he's in 5th. We have not had any problems, other than at about week 10 he started getting frustrated, but all he needed was for me to take a few weeks on walking him through the lessons. Then we hit a breakthrough and it was pretty smooth sailing.

 

I started allowing him to type the lessons around week 20. I probably should have let him do it earlier. He's not a fast typist yet, but he started getting very frustrated over corrections. His resistance to rewriting has all but disappeared now that he's typing the assignments.

I also cut to bare minimum the history outlining and writing for the first 12 weeks. It was after we hit our breakthrough that I added it back in, and it has been interesting to see how both his history and science writing have become easy for him; it's like he can outline and summarize in his sleep.

 

All that to say, I would give it a shot. You can always slow the pace if you need to.

[lmrich]

My fifth grader is doing fine with it. I often break day 3 into 2 days, mostly because Wed. ( day 3) for us she has art classes in the afternoon.her writing and outlining has improved tenfold.

[Haiku]

My dd is in 5th and is a strong writer. We started out the year with WWS but ditched it after a few months. It made my daughter hate writing and complain about having to do it, which we'd never experienced before.

 

I switched her to a vintage writing text from Google Books, School Composition, and she loves writing again. The assignments are more flexible and the instruction isn't as incremental. It's a lot easier to modify the assignments based on my goals and objectives, and dd isn't stuck writing about something she dislikes. (I know kids have to learn that skill, but I'd rather teach the mechanics in an enjoyable way than locking horns with her over content while still learning mechanics.) Frankly, she disliked most of the passages in WWS and finds the passages in School Composition much more interesting.

 

The same author, William Henry Wheeler, has Writing in English for the higher grades. Our spelling book (also vintage) was written by William Henry Maxwell, so my daughter likes to say she does school with the William Henrys.

 

We also use the writing lessons in Hake Grammar and writing, although dd doesn't like them. She says they don't teach her anything new, to which I reply that sometimes it's good to just practice skills you've already learned.

 

Tara

[laughing lioness]

Our group was 5th- 9th graders. EVeryone did just fine. I let the kids decide if they wanted to hand-write or type thier papers. It was a push at first to get everyone writing every week but once we hit a groove papers came in every week, no problem. We had a blast with the program!

[Hedgehogs4]

I was hoping to do it next yr in 5th w/ ds. Sounds like I should wait til 6th or later? What's your favorite grade to do it in?

 

He has had 2 yrs of IEW but is not a huge writer, average student. I like WWS for the "thinking through" of writing.

 

Can't figure out what to use in the meantime that would maybe be like a WWS "light"-to start giving those foundational skills. I don't use WWE-we do narration, etc. on our own. Dictation has not shown much value w/ this kiddo.

 

 

If your 5th grader has never done SWB's style of writing, I would do a few things first: 1. listen to her lectures from PHP on how to teach writing (they are so engaging and make so. much. sense!), 2. do WWE 3 for the practice. I know you said you don't use WWE, but these things build on each other, and for me it has been helpful to have the structured, predictable, practiced skills that are contained in it. It doesn't mean you shouldn't / couldn't do more narration in your other subjects. 3. start WWS in 6th grade. My 6th grader is working on it currently and I plan to take two years to go through it. It just takes us longer than a week to get through the assignments, not because they are too hard, but because with everything else (grammar, vocab, spelling, math, science, history....) there isn't enough time in a day to fit everything in, so I give him a couple days extra with the final writing assignment in each chapter. He is doing EXTREMELY well with it. I couldn't be more pleased.

[Mukmuk]

Tks for posting this. I have an upcoming 5th grader as well. We're working on WWE4 right now and will do WWS at some point in 5th. I will have ds finish up on MCT Paragraph Town 1st and possibly some Killgalon. Ds will likely type out the assignments. He's a late starter to writing and he needs more practice under his belt.

[HappyGrace]

I am processing all the great responses and still thinking what to do.

 

Tara-I LOVE the books you linked! EXCELLENT content-thanks for sharing-I'm going to look thru them even more later. I can see picking and choosing from these to prep him for WWS if we decide to wait a yr.

 

Hedgehogs-I'm seriously considering what you said, but wondering this: Why WWE3 and not 4? And did your dc do any WWE before WWS? I have SWB's writing lectures but need to listen to them again-I agree they are great! thanks

[Bokons]

How are we supposed to read Google books? I can't figure it out. I don't see a download button anywhere.

 

 

 

My dd is in 5th and is a strong writer. We started out the year with WWS but ditched it after a few months. It made my daughter hate writing and complain about having to do it, which we'd never experienced before.

 

I switched her to a vintage writing text from Google Books, School Composition, and she loves writing again. The assignments are more flexible and the instruction isn't as incremental. It's a lot easier to modify the assignments based on my goals and objectives, and dd isn't stuck writing about something she dislikes. (I know kids have to learn that skill, but I'd rather teach the mechanics in an enjoyable way than locking horns with her over content while still learning mechanics.) Frankly, she disliked most of the passages in WWS and finds the passages in School Composition much more interesting.

 

The same author, William Henry Wheeler, has Writing in English for the higher grades. Our spelling book (also vintage) was written by William Henry Maxwell, so my daughter likes to say she does school with the William Henrys.

 

We also use the writing lessons in Hake Grammar and writing, although dd doesn't like them. She says they don't teach her anything new, to which I reply that sometimes it's good to just practice skills you've already learned.

 

Tara

[SilverMoon]

How are we supposed to read Google books? I can't figure it out. I don't see a download button anywhere.

 

 

Some countries can't, from what I understand. If you're in the USA hover your mouse over the red "ebook free" button and select either epub or pdf from there.

[Dolphin]

My ds is finishing up WWS1 and he's in 5th. We have not had any problems, other than at about week 10 he started getting frustrated, but all he needed was for me to take a few weeks on walking him through the lessons. Then we hit a breakthrough and it was pretty smooth sailing.

 

I started allowing him to type the lessons around week 20. I probably should have let him do it earlier. He's not a fast typist yet, but he started getting very frustrated over corrections. His resistance to rewriting has all but disappeared now that he's typing the assignments.

I also cut to bare minimum the history outlining and writing for the first 12 weeks. It was after we hit our breakthrough that I added it back in, and it has been interesting to see how both his history and science writing have become easy for him; it's like he can outline and summarize in his sleep.

 

All that to say, I would give it a shot. You can always slow the pace if you need to.

 

We waited and started WWS after soccer season had finished in 5th.

 

Around week 10, he started to struggle, so we now take 2 weeks for every week. We just finished week 14. I am fine going slowly, we will probably take 4 years to do the 3 years that are planned. It should probably work well so that WWS3 will either be out or in Beta by the time we get there.

[shukriyya]

I switched her to a vintage writing text from Google Books, School Composition, and she loves writing again. The assignments are more flexible and the instruction isn't as incremental. It's a lot easier to modify the assignments based on my goals and objectives, and dd isn't stuck writing about something she dislikes.

 

The same author, William Henry Wheeler, has Writing in English for the higher grades. Our spelling book (also vintage) was written by William Henry Maxwell, so my daughter likes to say she does school with the William Henrys.

 

Tara

 

 

Thanks, Tara, for posting these two links. I've looked at the first one and it looks great. I haven't found a lot of the vintage texts to be that useable but this one looks really promising. Into the basket it goes...

[Haiku]

I'm glad that people like the book I linked. We have enjoyed using it and found it to be a good source for writing instruction.

 

Tara

[shukriyya]

Tara, do you use 'School Composition' solely for writing instruction or do you draw from other resources?

[Haiku]

I have my dd, who is in 5th grade, write for history and science, as well. I feel that School Composition is the instruction, and the science/history writing are the practice. She also completes the writing lessons in Hake Grammar and Writing, but there aren't many of those.

 

Tara

[Hedgehogs4]

I am processing all the great responses and still thinking what to do.

 

Tara-I LOVE the books you linked! EXCELLENT content-thanks for sharing-I'm going to look thru them even more later. I can see picking and choosing from these to prep him for WWS if we decide to wait a yr.

 

Hedgehogs-I'm seriously considering what you said, but wondering this: Why WWE3 and not 4? And did your dc do any WWE before WWS? I have SWB's writing lectures but need to listen to them again-I agree they are great! thanks

 

I think WWE 3 is the perfect balance of narration and dictation. In WWE 4 the dictations get really long. I think that if they are able to do well what is laid out in 3, they are plenty ready for what they need to do in WWS, as long as they can work independently. I think WWE 4 could be good for a kid who is not quite ready to work independently on this style of assignment.

 

I started WWE when my ds was well into 3rd grade. He was the kind of kid for whom writing was physically painful, and his spelling needed tons of help, so we took our time. His reading and narration ability far exceded his writing and spelling ability, so I started him in WWE1 and quickly discovered that this was too easy. WWE 2 was perfect at that point. I can't remember exactly how it all timed out, but I do know that we finished WWE 3 at the end of 5th grade. I didn't bother with 4 because the dictations were (IMO) far longer than necessary and cognitively, my ds was just ready to move into the WWS. WWE4 is optional. My friend has two girls, one in 7th and one in 5th. They both finished WWE3 last year, and the older girl was more than ready for WWS, the younger was not, so she is doing WWE4--this turned out to be a very good decision for them.

 

My DD 7 (second grader, will be 8 in May) just finished WWE 1 and is doing well with WWE 2. I expect to need to make the choice of WWE 4 vs. WWS in 5th grade with her. We will see where she is cognitively at that point. She is already strong in her writing, spelling and narration skills.

[Carolyn in Ohio]

I am using it with 2 kids - dd who is the "right" age for it (5th and 6th grades) and ds who did WWS 1 in 8th and WWS 2 (beta) in 9th. I think it is fantastic for both of them.

 

Carolyn

[HappyGrace]

Hedgehogs-that clarification was EXTRA helpful-thanks so much!

[Bokons]

 

Some countries can't, from what I understand. If you're in the USA hover your mouse over the red "ebook free" button and select either epub or pdf from there.

 

 

 

I'm in Canada, and I don't see that button :(.