DD: stubborn or really not getting it?

[Giraffe]

My DD (5 3/4) insists she can't discern sounds within a word. For instance, when I ask her the initial sound of "telephone", she will say every sound under the sun except "t". Even when I repeat the word with the sound she claims she hears and she laughs at how ridiculous it sounds, she still can't identify the correct sound, even when I exaggerate it.

 

This is the kid who plays chess, can remember everything, loves books, and desperately wants to read. She just had a hearing screening. She's also a ham with her head in the clouds. I think she's pulling a number on me, but how can I tell? And what should I do to stop it if she is?

[Laura Corin]

I would spend a lot of time telling her the sounds, rather than quizzing her on the sounds. She's pretty young and I would just step back for a few months and take the pressure off. She may be hamming it up out of insecurity.

 

Laura

[Giraffe]

I would, but this is her Kindergarten homework for her Turkish school. She's supposed to discern initial sounds, and then, separately, distinguish between when a sound is in the middle or end of the word.

 

I'm not asking her the letter that makes that sound, just to repeat the sound itself. This should be simple, right? "Telephone" = "t"?

 

When we go over sounds and letters, she's just about got them all identified in English. But this isn't even that much. It's just listening.

[Giraffe]

To make matters more difficult, her school wants her to be reading English before she starts first grade next year, ideally before the end of this school year. They teach Turkish reading straight away in first grade and the kids are expected to get it rapidly (Turkish is completely phonetic). There is concern that she will be horribly confused if she's in the middle of learning English reading at the same time.

 

But that's another topic.

[Ellie]

Would you normally describe her as "stubborn"? If not, then no, she probably just isn't getting it. How bright she is, or how good her memory is, is irrelevant.

 

What are you using to teach her to read English?

[Giraffe]

Would you normally describe her as "stubborn"? If not, then no, she probably just isn't getting it. How bright she is, or how good her memory is, is irrelevant.

 

What are you using to teach her to read English?

 

Stubborn doesn't begin to describe her. She gets something in her head and she will. not. let. it. go. Ever. She's a Taurus and God help us she's bull-headed. (She gets it honest.)

 

I'm using OPGTTR, but not following the script exactly because I was losing her attention.

[Eagle]

Can she do level K Turkish School again next year? It sounds like she isn't ready for this yet.

 

We've recently started All About Spelling with ds. One of the first lessons gets the student to identify the starting sound of a word. The words they use are three letters long and only have one syllable. Maybe the words in your dd's homework are too complex for her to discern the starting sound. You could try short words to see if that helps.

 

 

[Ellie]

Stubborn doesn't begin to describe her. She gets something in her head and she will. not. let. it. go. Ever. She's a Taurus and God help us she's bull-headed. (She gets it honest.)

 

We first-borns are often like that. :D And it isn't that we're being stubborn; it's that we have a very strong urge to Do Things the Right Way--whatever we have come to perceive as being the "right way"--and we MUST do it that way. It makes us good leaders...but we have to work on not expecting others to have the same drive, or even the same perception of what The Right Way is.

 

I'm using OPGTTR, but not following the script exactly because I was losing her attention.

 

 

Well, you might have to buy something after all. As the resident Spalding geek, I'd have to recommend Spalding. It isn't very costly, though: less than $40 for the manual (WRTR) and the phonogram cards.

[Giraffe]

The words in her homework are two syllables at most. I used "telephone" because it sounds the same in both languages and the sound in question was "t". One of her words was "tavÅŸan", another "tarak".

 

I'm afraid you all may be right; she's not ready. She's smart but in another world. I just don't know what to do about this. Part of it is cultural, part is the family dynamic, part is that if I hold her back all her friends will be ahead of her. And she will feel stupid. I know her. My DH is a similar personality - smart as all get out but a classic absent minded professor.

[Giraffe]

We first-borns are often like that. :D And it isn't that we're being stubborn; it's that we have a very strong urge to Do Things the Right Way--whatever we have come to perceive as being the "right way"--and we MUST do it that way. It makes us good leaders...but we have to work on not expecting others to have the same drive, or even the same perception of what The Right Way is.

 

As a first born, I get that. I forget she's one too. And I inflict my Right Way on her.

 

Well, you might have to buy something after all. As the resident Spalding geek, I'd have to recommend Spalding. It isn't very costly, though: less than $40 for the manual (WRTR) and the phonogram cards.

 

 

I've bought OPGTTR twice now, once in hard copy which is sitting in Texas and once in PDF which I have here. Can Spalding be purchased as a PDF and downloaded? I remember it from my childhood, I must have been taught with it.

 

I have to go wrestle the child, now posing as a turtle, into her bath. I'll be back later after she's in bed.

[Lecka]

This can be a sign of dyslexia or weakness In Phonemic awareness. There are programs very appropriate for her age, it is still normal to be a developing skill. If you search phonemic awareness on Amazon you can see books for her age and read the introductions..

 

It sounds like she could be just not cooperating, also. However just bc one skill doesn't mean she has every other skill even ones that seem easier.

[Lecka]

/serial actually I agree to back off and work with her in a way that is not just asking her.

 

But if you are interested in phonemic awareness there are programs for her age. It is not uncommon for this to be something kids work on in pre-school here.

[Lecka]

/serial actually I agree to back off and work with her in a way that is not just asking her.

 

But if you are interested in phonemic awareness there are programs for her age. It is not uncommon for this to be something kids work on in pre-school and Kindergarten here.

[Lecka]

/serial actually I agree to back off and work with her in a way that is not just asking her.

 

But if you are interested in phonemic awareness there are programs for her age. It is not uncommon for this to be something kids work on in pre-school and Kindergarten here.

[Mabelen]

Is this is the same child whose Turkish language development you were worried about in a different post? There may be something going on top of first born/perfectionist tendencies... If she is not truly able to tell sounds apart then it must be very hard to improve your second language... Then again, did she have any of these signs learning English? Sorry I am of no help, just musing things out loud!

[happyhomemaker]

Can she do it the other way? I mean, can you give her a sound and have her correctly identify words that start with that sound? I would start by telling her that we are going to listen for the /t/ sound. Turtle, telephone, table...are all words that start with /t/. Then play a game. Say a word and she will raise her hand (jump in place, whatever) if it starts with /t/ or line up some objects and get her to name them and say if they start with /t/. Once she can do this for several letters then have her start deciding which letter she hears at the beginning. Having to pick from multiple sounds is harder than just listening for one sound, kwim?

 

To encourage you: my dd was abysmal at this when we started out at about your daughter's age. She was my first to teach and I was so discouraged! She caught on after a few months of slow progression. We worked on maybe 3 letter sounds independently and then we would combine them and see if she could pick which if the 3 was the first sound. She is an excellent reader now. I think your daughter will get it. Just take it slow and do lots of games.

[PeterPan]

Well a few things. One, if she's 5 3/4, when is her b-day? That could be inching her into that summer range where age/readiness could be part of it. My dd has an April birthday, and she didn't start to read till, well right about this time (Feb) in K5. I could definitely see scenarios where some bright, ready kids could be later. And for years and years it seemed like we were hitting that age wall. Now there's so much variance in kids (junior high) it's not so obvious. But when they're 5, 6 months difference actually represents a huge chunk of their lives!

 

Two, while you are compounding the difficulty by trying to nail two languages, I would hope you'd at least be getting the phonemic awareness down in *1* of them. No, a basic hearing test wouldn't eliminate the possibility of APD (auditory processing disorder). It also doesn't eliminate the possibility of dyslexia. Now on that front I'll just say something, and you do with it as you wish. I checked your posts, and you've mentioned repeatedly your exasperation with her unusual level of challenging behavior, how intense she is, how exhausting she is, etc. I would suggest that's usually an indication there's more going on. If you were in the States, you'd at least get some screenings through a ped. I don't know what you can get there. If there's something more going on, you'd rather know now than later. There sometimes are things you can do to help (OT for sensory issues, counseling and approaches for anxiety and perfectionism, whatever whatever). Just depends on what's going on. You haven't really said enough for anyone to guess or point you in a direction. I'm just saying the intensity you're describing, that her issues improve dramatically with structure, etc., these are all clues of something going on. She can be *2E* which means gifted plus... You can be dyslexic and have off the charts auditory recall and auditory memory. When you get these mixes, it's really deceptive. You want to think nothing is going on because they're so smart and bright, but the problems still nag at you.

 

If it was only giftedness as the issue, I would have expected the reading to kick in better and maybe there to be a bit of discontentedness with school. Since it's the opposite (school makes it better, more structure, more predictability) and she's having some academic frustrations, it makes you think the opposite direction, 2E. Either way, you can start to discuss that with someone (ped, psychologist, whoever you can find there). Might as well know now as later. Sometimes just getting words on it helps.

 

As far as figuring out what is real and what is volitional, well I'd whip out something motivating like candy. Get her absolute favorite candy, make the game start easy, and dole out one for each task she gets correct. You get your info and she is motivated to do it.

 

My dd went through a stage (stage nothing, years) where she wouldn't sound out words. Turns out she actually had a reason (vision problems). So absolutely you can have a bright dc who isn't able to do something. It's the whole point of a 2E label, that they can be very bright and very exasperating, both at the same time. So I'd encourage you to explore that, given what you've been saying. If it's a nothing, worse case scenario is you get a psych eval and learn her IQ and that there's nothing going on. But if there is some mix there, then you find out and can deal with it.

[Starr]

If she has to read English then work on that and let her catch up with the Turkish next year? Or let the English be and work on the Turkish for now.

[Mommyof4ks]

I agree with PP, it might be a learning disability. My ds has dyslexia and auditory processing issues. He cannot sound things out, because his brain does not work that way yet (we are working on it and he will get, but we are not there yet at age 9). When she sounds it out she might be describing it as sounding weird, because what she is taking in and what she is able to produce are not the same thing even though she is trying. My ds went through a period of feeling stupid, because he could not keep up with his peers, but once we figured out the issues and explained to him that his brain is just wired differently, then he gain confidence because he has a special gift that many do not possess (too bad others do not see it as a gift ugh). Anyway, it would be worth looking into if she is able to catch on to everything else, but reading is not coming along. My ds is the same way, he has a memory that never loses a thing, he can picture and build elaborate things with Legos, and he is very handy with tools, so I was confused about his lack of reading until we put the pieces of the puzzle together.

[Giraffe]

Thank you everyone. I will go back and read the posts more closely in a bit, but it's early morning here. I think you're on to something. Need to do some research and thinking....

[PeterPan]

If you can get a copy of it, The Mislabeled Child is good.

[Giraffe]

OK, I think my head just might explode. I've read a bunch of websites and looked up as much as I could over the past three hours. 2e. Everything points to it. Every checklist, every anecdotal description fits her.

 

She can play chess.

She can design electrical circuits (with her father's help).

She has wisdom beyond her years (the things she says....).

She extrapolates from books and stories.

She doesn't stop asking questions. Ever.

She theorizes about every. single. thing. on the planet - and not simple, complex.

She doesn't follow instruction, especially multiple instructions.

She doesn't hear me 90% of the time.

She wanders around with her head in the clouds (and then theorizes about the rain cycle).

She can't relax enough to sleep (it takes an hour or two with my lying next to her).

She will win almost any battle of wills.

She can't hear initial sounds, but can hear sounds inside a word or at the end.

She can't blend sounds. She can say M A T - but not mat. (Yes, I know this could be simply developmental.)

Her writing is abysmal, but I attribute that to being five.

When I ask her to do something, she takes several seconds/minutes to process what I said and then do it. She can't respond quickly.

 

About the last point - for years I've just attributed this to "head in the clouds syndrome" (her daddy and I both have it). But lately it's seemed like something else. Last night, after a particularly trying evening, she said "Mommy, I'm just not the fastest kid. You have to give me some time to think about things." I'm seriously thinking its an auditory processing thing. She has to process it and it takes time to do. This will be a problem in school, especially here where they expect kids to comply quickly.

 

As far as language and learning Turkish and English, she has been very slow to learn Turkish. Very. The school is concerned, we are concerned. She understands EVERYTHING we say. EVERYTHING. But she wouldn't respond. Then, suddenly, it was like a switch went off and now we can't get her to stop. It's wonderful, but... in both languages she has errors. She says things wrong, and we can't get her to correct them. "Us" is "Hus", "Tamam" is "Taman". Not sure why. Now - phonemic awareness - I don't even know exactly what that is, but I'm sure we're screwing her up because we are doing everything at once. I don't know how else to do it. We live here. Unless we're going to go back to the US, which is an option we'd prefer not to exercise, she needs to be bilingual. I don't know what to do about that.

 

And the more I read, the more I think my DH may be 2e. He fits, especially what he describes of his experiences in school.

 

Like I said - my brain is exploding.

[Laura Corin]

 

 

As far as language and learning Turkish and English, she has been very slow to learn Turkish. Very. The school is concerned, we are concerned. She understands EVERYTHING we say. EVERYTHING. But she wouldn't respond. Then, suddenly, it was like a switch went off and now we can't get her to stop. It's wonderful, but... in both languages she has errors. She says things wrong, and we can't get her to correct them. "Us" is "Hus", "Tamam" is "Taman". Not sure why. Now - phonemic awareness - I don't even know exactly what that is, but I'm sure we're screwing her up because we are doing everything at once. I don't know how else to do it. We live here. Unless we're going to go back to the US, which is an option we'd prefer not to exercise, she needs to be bilingual. I don't know what to do about that.

 

And the more I read, the more I think my DH may be 2e. He fits, especially what he describes of his experiences in school.

 

Like I said - my brain is exploding.

 

 

I'd do some research into children growing up with two languages. I was told - I don't know what the current research suggests - that children with two languages are often a bit slower at the beginning in one or both, then catch up fast.

 

Laura

[Giraffe]

 

 

I'd do some research into children growing up with two languages. I was told - I don't know what the current research suggests - that children with two languages are often a bit slower at the beginning in one or both, then catch up fast.

 

Laura

 

 

I will. What we've been told here is that it takes 3 months for little ones to adjust, then they burst forth in the new language. If this now is the "bursting", then it took DD 10 months of immersion after 4 years of summer visits and exposure in the US.

 

I mentioned something to DH about her auditory processing, nothing else. He says I should look into it. That's significant because he usually dismisses these things. This time he didn't.

 

Where's the Tylenol?!

[LittleIzumi]

OK, I think my head just might explode. I've read a bunch of websites and looked up as much as I could over the past three hours. 2e. Everything points to it. Every checklist, every anecdotal description fits her.

 

She can play chess.

She can design electrical circuits (with her father's help).

She has wisdom beyond her years (the things she says....).

She extrapolates from books and stories.

She doesn't stop asking questions. Ever.

She theorizes about every. single. thing. on the planet - and not simple, complex.

She doesn't follow instruction, especially multiple instructions.

She doesn't hear me 90% of the time.

She wanders around with her head in the clouds (and then theorizes about the rain cycle).

She can't relax enough to sleep (it takes an hour or two with my lying next to her).

She will win almost any battle of wills.

She can't hear initial sounds, but can hear sounds inside a word or at the end.

She can't blend sounds. She can say M A T - but not mat. (Yes, I know this could be simply developmental.)

Her writing is abysmal, but I attribute that to being five.

When I ask her to do something, she takes several seconds/minutes to process what I said and then do it. She can't respond quickly.

 

About the last point - for years I've just attributed this to "head in the clouds syndrome" (her daddy and I both have it). But lately it's seemed like something else. Last night, after a particularly trying evening, she said "Mommy, I'm just not the fastest kid. You have to give me some time to think about things." I'm seriously thinking its an auditory processing thing. She has to process it and it takes time to do. This will be a problem in school, especially here where they expect kids to comply quickly.

 

As far as language and learning Turkish and English, she has been very slow to learn Turkish. Very. The school is concerned, we are concerned. She understands EVERYTHING we say. EVERYTHING. But she wouldn't respond. Then, suddenly, it was like a switch went off and now we can't get her to stop. It's wonderful, but... in both languages she has errors. She says things wrong, and we can't get her to correct them. "Us" is "Hus", "Tamam" is "Taman". Not sure why. Now - phonemic awareness - I don't even know exactly what that is, but I'm sure we're screwing her up because we are doing everything at once. I don't know how else to do it. We live here. Unless we're going to go back to the US, which is an option we'd prefer not to exercise, she needs to be bilingual. I don't know what to do about that.

 

And the more I read, the more I think my DH may be 2e. He fits, especially what he describes of his experiences in school.

 

Like I said - my brain is exploding.

 

((Hugs)) 2E popped into my head too, reading what you wrote. My oldest is 2E with severe ADHD. It's exhausting!!!!!

[Giraffe]

((Hugs)) 2E popped into my head too, reading what you wrote. My oldest is 2E with severe ADHD. It's exhausting!!!!!

 

Thanks!

 

I talked to a cousin here and showed her a list of attributes from a 2e website (without telling her what they were). She agreed DD fit. She also said DH absolutely fit.

 

So we're going to explore testing with a pediatric neurologist she knows. It's a place to start, at least, especially since we both think there's some kind of auditory processing problem.

 

Thank you to everyone who read this and commented. You helped me so much. Don't be surprised if I post more over the next few weeks. I've got a lot to work through!

[Trilliums]

Thanks!

 

I talked to a cousin here and showed her a list of attributes from a 2e website (without telling her what they were). She agreed DD fit. She also said DH absolutely fit.

 

So we're going to explore testing with a pediatric neurologist she knows. It's a place to start, at least, especially since we both think there's some kind of auditory processing problem.

 

Thank you to everyone who read this and commented. You helped me so much. Don't be surprised if I post more over the next few weeks. I've got a lot to work through!

 

 

Your list of your daughter's attributes sounds just like my older son at that age. Also, as I learned more about DS, I realized that DH is the same way. DH actually is a professor now (and still absent minded). When we met, in graduate school, everything was just a little bit harder and slower for him. That was where his stubbornness paid off though.

 

 

My son is 16 now. We homeschooled from grades 1-9. We tried a variety of programs but mostly just kept plugging along doing our own thing. The book he liked most was "The Gift of Dyslexia" by Ron Davis. When I read portions of that book to him, he said it described how he felt/though. I thought they sounded pretty crazy! We did work through a lot of the clay formation exercises he discusses in the book. Any kind of written program was pure frustration for DS until upper elementary years. He started ps this year, grade 10, and is doing exceptionally well. During parent teacher conferences, his LA teacher (for honors English) told me she could tell writing was his special area of talent. I just laughed inside thinking of the years of worry! He couldn't read until he was 9 and he didn't write a paragraph until he was about 12 or even 13. He is, however, an amazing analytical thinker. He does process information on the slow side, but not to such a degree that it is a hindrance in his classes. He will take classes at the University next year (physics and computer programming) since he has completed the highest level available at the ps in those subjects (AP Physics and AP Comp Sci, classes he has 99% in at the public school). I say this to offer encouragement that kids like this can go on to academic achievement. For my son though, it was definitely a circuitous route.

[PeterPan]

When she says "I need time to process things" that's low processing speed. YES you can have someone who has amazingly high IQ but this (comparatively low) processing speed. You can get someone who's IQ is bright or gifted, and their processing speed can be 60 or 70 or 80%-ile lower. That's HUGE.

 

What you can do is google APD vs. ADHD. It may help you sort it out. I know there are some good charts online, and we even discussed it a bit recently on the SN board (which is where you should head btw). There are some pretty distinct patterns in kids who have adhd. Yes, it's hard to look just as the response speed and sort out whether that's because they're processing the sounds or whether it's because they need that speed for *everything*. How is her rate on moves in chess? Speed of writing? If there's impulsivity (goes with adhd), then she might have two modes, super-slow and crazy fast. So the super-slow is her actual rate that might actually look ok, and the fast impulsive rate is the one she uses to cover up her lack of control with it being more chickeny. So look at her processing and reaction rate for things that don't involve sound. (Wii, answering written questions about something she read, playing games that involve processing speed like SET, etc.)

 

Off the charts creativity would be your big clue that there's adhd. You can have adhd *and* apd, yes.

 

Over here we'd tell you to look for a *neuropsychologist* because they can do the IQ, processing speed, etc. testing. They don't do the hearing. I don't know what a neurologist will do for you, so I guess make sure they can do those things as part of the mix.

 

The SN board is a good place to bandage your head. We have two forums now, one for the mix/unlabeled/suspect/education stuff and a sub-forum to discuss medical-specific needs, long-term, etc. Means you can come over now and blend right in. :)

[Ellie]

As a first born, I get that. I forget she's one too. And I inflict my Right Way on her.

That's our job as parents: to help our children develop the concept of The Right Way that has the best chance of actually being right, lol. Don't feel bad about it.

 

Can Spalding be purchased as a PDF and downloaded? I remember it from my childhood, I must have been taught with it.

To my knowledge, no.

 

However, now that there has been more discussion (and your head is exploding) I'm thinking there may be more learning issues than what either Spalding or OPGTR can solve. But it's good that you're figuring it out now, rather than after she's been in school for many years. :grouphug: