How to handle lying and sneakiness in a 5-year-old

[Aspasia]

I'm going a little crazy over here. DD5 has taken to being very sneaky and dishonest lately. Some examples:

-She regularly sneaks treats from our freezer in the basement. I only know because I find the wrappers in corners of the playroom.

-When I was looking through her drawers for her gymnastics outfit, I came across MY new bracelets, which she had asked to wear and I told her no.

-There are regular instances where ds started crying and when I ask her what happened, she always thinks for a few seconds before telling me an outrageous story about how he hit his head on something.

 

I KNOW this is all developmentally normal. What I don't know is how to handle it. Dishonesty is tough because I don't want to punish her into just getting better at lying, but I also can't just let it go. We have had several little sit-downs where we talk about why it's important to be honest, what would happen if everyone took/did whatever they wanted without regard for the rules or other people's feelings, how she would feel if she were on the other end of some of these offenses. In these talks, she responds exactly like I want her to--contrite, understanding, vowing to change her ways, etc. And then the next day, it's more of the same! I just don't know how to handle this properly! And I'd be lying myself if I said I haven't ever reacted in anger--big anger-- which I know is probably just making it worse. I need an action plan.

[KrissiK]

I have this problem,, too, and honestly, I don't know what to do. He sneaks treats, I fund a ziplock bag that once contained cc cookies under his bed, he occasionally steals things from stores. I bought some mini-flashlights for keychains (not for the kids)and he asked if he could have one, i said "no, i had plans for them" and a couple hours later i see he was playing with one in his pocket. And I don't always react well, because honesty is huge for me. I hate being lied to more than anything. I yell, lecture, have him copy Scripture about stealing and honesty. He does get punished always. when he steals from a store, he of course goes and returns the item to the manager. Then there's the old logical consequences of not believing him when there's a question of who did something. I wouldn't say this is a pathological problem, he does know right and wrong, but he is also very self-centered and labors under the delusion that if he wants something, he is entitled to have it.

[justamouse]

Take the bracelets, and say, "I see you disobeyed me and borrowed these after I told you no." (DO NOT ASK if the child took them, they will just dig deeper) and make the child do something penitential to make up for the disobedience.

 

Punishment is not penitential. Two different things, which is why punishing won't work. That just makes them lie more. PIck something age appropriate, not something that will last a month, but something appropriate to their ability. NOT writing a hundred times that they will not steal.

 

If they sneak cookies, then when desert comes have them share part of their desert with someone else. Have them help make the family desert, and they abstain from their portion.

 

When I had these problems with my oldest son, his Psych told me that the item has to be returned, they have to apologize *and make up (the penance)* for what they have done. THis is why apologies alone never work, children with their innate sense of justice know that full justice has not been served.

 

Be snarky to your sister? Say you're sorry, and now you will go help her match some socks. You will draw her bath. You will fold her clothes. You will do something nice to make reparation for the wrong you have committed.

 

So, sit down now, and make yourself a list of things they can do so that you've got it ready for next time. Make it matter of fact, no need for hysterics and anger.

 

Keep it consistent, and it will work. Think of penance as rerouting their bad habits. You are trying to now give them a good habit.

[beaners]

I'd love to know too. We've been going in and out of this phase for a year now with my 5 year old.

 

Craft supplies of all types are a favorite thing to sneak here. If you saw my kitchen table, you'd know that we do crafts all the time. The carpet behind my loveseat is now stained from paint. There is a drawing all over the wall behind the bedroom door in her room. We have red crayon all over our bathroom and hall right now.

 

What foods are always available changes, but we started having something they're allowed to have if they get up before me. It has not helped at all. My daughter has eaten sticks of margarine, containers of sprinkles, opened boxes of pudding or jello, a couple bites out of many pieces of fruit, candy, chocolate, gummies, boxes of raisins, and luckily stopped short of pulling out uncooked bacon on one occasion, and so much more I can't even remember. Some of these end up under the beds, and I know this behavior is going to lead to some major insect problems if I can't end it before the weather warms up. I'm always hesitant to mention it because labeling something "food sneaking" seems to make people assume something nefarious is going on. I cook large, regular, tasty, healthy meals. We've moved houses, but that's the only "upheaval" in our lives and this behavior predated that.

 

She and her sister went into her brother's room in the very wee hours of the morning, and plied him with fruit snacks to keep him quiet while they got into all the Christmas presents hidden in there. It's a great example that indicates just how much planning and forethought is going into these things. This isn't just a little bit of trouble resisting temptation, which I truly get.

 

Normal sibling disagreements are resulting in lies. I'm doing the "right" things. I'm not asking her what happened and making it easier to come up with a story than tell the truth. For a little while after she read about George Washington and the cherry tree she had a streak of still doing the "sneaky" things, but then telling the truth about them. And we praised the truthfulness, but asked her not to do whatever she had done.

 

I love my children. They are good children. I tell them that all the time. I don't tell them they are sneaky, and I don't think to myself that they're "rotten" or anything like that. Someone usually says in these threads that a parent thinking these things about their children means the parent is horrible and heartless. I can't think of a better word to describe the behavior than sneaking though.

[justamouse]

 

 

I love my children. They are good children. I tell them that all the time. I don't tell them they are sneaky, and I don't think to myself that they're "rotten" or anything like that. Someone usually says in these threads that a parent thinking these things about their children means the parent is horrible and heartless. I can't think of a better word to describe the behavior than sneaking though.

 

:grouphug:

 

Sneaking is just selfishness. That is all. And we all are, it's a part of the human condition. You , as a parent, are trying to make them understand that to grow up we need to have self control. Many adults do not have self control, and I'm not saying that to absolve them, but so you can put this in context. We can all think of the selfish things we do as adults, the things that get people in trouble--it's just a lack of self control.

 

So, you are not horrible and heartless. :grouphug:

[KrissiK]

Take the bracelets, and say, "I see you disobeyed me and borrowed these after I told you no." (DO NOT ASK if the child took them, they will just dig deeper)

I agree with this. If you have a pretty good idea if they've done something, don't ask, so you're not giving them an opportunity to lie. I just state the facts. "You did this," I agree with having the child make up for what they did, but that doesn't always work. Punishment doesn't work, either, for that matter, which is why we're having the problem in the first place and haven't conquered it. Kids always weigh the odds when they are doing something... my ds got a week without dessert because he "ate his dessert early when he took the bag of cookies"' but he didn't care.

[justamouse]

I agree with this. If you have a pretty good idea if they've done something, don't ask, so you're not giving them an opportunity to lie. I just state the facts. "You did this," I agree with having the child make up for what they did, but that doesn't always work. Punishment doesn't work, either, for that matter, which is why we're having the problem in the first place and haven't conquered it. Kids always weigh the odds when they are doing something... my ds got a week without dessert because he "ate his dessert early when he took the bag of cookies"' but he didn't care.

 

 

That's because it was a punishment, not a reparation. To make reparation, you have to do something *for someone else*.

[Aspasia]

Take the bracelets, and say, "I see you disobeyed me and borrowed these after I told you no." (DO NOT ASK if the child took them, they will just dig deeper) and make the child do something penitential to make up for the disobedience.

 

Punishment is not penitential. Two different things, which is why punishing won't work. That just makes them lie more. PIck something age appropriate, not something that will last a month, but something appropriate to their ability. NOT writing a hundred times that they will not steal.

 

If they sneak cookies, then when desert comes have them share part of their desert with someone else. Have them help make the family desert, and they abstain from their portion.

 

When I had these problems with my oldest son, his Psych told me that the item has to be returned, they have to apologize *and make up (the penance)* for what they have done. THis is why apologies alone never work, children with their innate sense of justice know that full justice has not been served.

 

Be snarky to your sister? Say your sorry, and now you will go help her match some socks. You will draw her bath. You will fold her clothes. You will do something nice to make reparation for the wrong you have committed.

 

So, sit down now, and make yourself a list of things they can do so that you've got it ready for next time. Make it matter of fact, no need for hysterics and anger.

 

Keep it consistent, and it will work. Think of penance as rerouting their bad habits. You are trying to now give them a good habit.

 

This is awesome advice.

 

I did call her on the bracelets. I didn't ask if she took them because I didn't want to set her up for failure/lying (I learned that one from "Nurture Shock".) But I don't really know what appropriate "penance" would be for that. Do you think the penance needs to fit the crime, or can I just make a list like you said and pull anything from it that represents some kind of reparation to me?

 

This is so hard!

[justamouse]

As a Catholic, we say the Act of Contrition. "Oh my God,I am sorry for my sins, in choosing to sin and failing to do good, I have sinned against you and your church...."

 

When he eats the cookies, he not only sins against himself, but against the family, which brings him out of family harmony. He has not acted charitably toward his family. So he needs to make reparation to the FAMILY.

[justamouse]

This is awesome advice.

 

I did call her on the bracelets. I didn't ask if she took them because I didn't want to set her up for failure/lying (I learned that one from "Nurture Shock".) But I don't really know what appropriate "penance" would be for that. Do you think the penance needs to fit the crime, or can I just make a list like you said and pull anything from it that represents some kind of reparation to me?

 

This is so hard!

 

It IS hard because we haven't learned it growing up.

 

I saw a neat idea the other day, to make a jar of age appropriate chores, and when they didn't pick up after themselves, they had to pick a chore out of the jar. That's a way to handle it.

 

But, since it was against you, specifically, I would have her do something that helps YOU. Sweep the floor for the day, dust...I'm not quite creative with anything right now, I'm sure you can think up something better, but you get the idea?

[SKL]

I have this problem with one of mine. It started when she was about 5.5 and is still going on a year later. As others have noted, a considerable amount of planning and elaborate storytelling is involved. If she put that much thought into math, she'd be amazing, LOL. She's also insecure and this comes out in related ways, such as not wanting another child to get something she doesn't get.

 

I have done all of the following at one time or another:

• Punished in some memorable way
  
• Required restitution, apology, loss of her own stuff, some additional work
  
• Read age-appropriate books with her and talked about the pertinent Commandments (don't idolize anything other than God, honor mom, don't steal, don't covet)
  
• Purged all sweets (other than natural fruits) from the house; attempted to reduce if not eliminate added sugar and especially HFCS from her diet
  
• Provided alternative foods / treats that are freely available at all times
  
• Reminded, encouraged, praised good choices, loved, cuddled, listened, etc.
  
• Made doubly sure that she doesn't have holes in her diet
  
• Of course I always model honesty / integrity - it is very important to me for myself as well as my family
  
• Walked her through visualization of the impact of her choices on others
  
• Probably other stuff...
  

Things seem to be a lot better, but there were a couple of incidents (that I know of) in January.

 

I think for now, what has helped most are:

• Candy sweetened with Stevia. Makes her happy without distorting her reasoning. I just ordered a whole bunch and I plan to make it freely available.
  
• Showing understanding of (instead of disgust for) her difficulty resisting the urge. At school, I sent in a bunch of tasty gummy vitamins (whole food product intended to be taken 3x per day) for her teacher to keep. She is allowed to go ask the teacher for one whenever she has an urge for a sweet.
  
• Visualization of how it feels to be stolen from. ("You worked really hard and got some money. You are so proud to be rewarded for hard work. You think of what you want to buy with your money. You go to the store and pick out the thing you want and you're so happy. You reach into your pocket for the money and - it's gone, because someone took it. How do you feel at that moment?")
  

One thing I don't want to do is ever give the impression that "things" are more important than "people." I focus on the "people" aspect of the "thing" that was taken. The $20 my dd swiped (not even knowing the value of $20) is not worth her feeling unloved or "bad" in the self-value sense.

 

I had a brother who did this throughout his childhood, and I know it's not uncommon at all. But it is causing problems at school etc. So I hope that I find the magic formula that carries us through until my kid is mature enough to want to respect others' property just because it's right.

[Ellie]

"Developmentally normal"?? :huh:

 

What about tomato staking?

[SKL]

"Developmentally normal"?? :huh:

 

What about tomato staking?

 

I would choose "not uncommon" for the age.

 

The point being that it's not something to go ballistic about or start viewing the child as a psycho.

 

ETA: Tomato staking is limited if you aren't always with your child. I watch my kid like a hawk and will even sometimes check her pockets when we're at a store, but there's nothing I can do if she sees something she wants at school.

[kalanamak]

I like the Raising a Thinking Child method. Sometimes I thought kiddo straightened up and flew right just he wouldn't have to sit down and go through the whole conversation on how that made other's feel and what he could do differently next time. :laugh:

[beaners]

"Developmentally normal"?? :huh:

 

What about tomato staking?

 

Not unexpected does not equal accepted.

 

I'm short on time at the moment, but most of our issues occur around 3 or 4 am. I physically can't be awake at that time when my baby falls asleep after midnight every night.

[hollyh]

I think justamouse has some great ideas. I think it is totally normal, and with my dd I have found that she goes through little bouts of lying/trying to get away with things and then the next month/week is back to her normal loving self. I think kids go through stages, we address them (while mentally going crazy and worrying that we aren't doing enough to raise our kids well) and they learn and hopefully change their behavior. A little while later we will address the same issues with them again, maybe at a deeper level.

[KrissiK]

 

 

That's because it was a punishment, not a reparation. To make reparation, you have to do something *for someone else*.

Oh, no, we've done that, too. Some nuts are just harder to crack.

[justamouse]

Oh, no, we've done that, too. Some nuts are just harder to crack.

 

But it has to be consistent, all the time, every time. No vacillation between punishment and reparation.

[caroljenn]

The times it's happened over here, I concentrated more on the lie than on whatever dd took. Something along the lines of, "I know why you would want to have that, it looks fun, BUT now you are not going to do or have this thing because you didn't tell the truth." Then I would dramatically proceed to take whatever it was away again with another comment about how I had supersonic ears and eyes and I always know and or find out when a she has been naughty.

 

If she wanted something, she can ask. If I said no, I always told her why. That was a biggie too.

[KrissiK]

 

 

But it has to be consistent, all the time, every time. No vacillation between punishment and reparation.

 

What would have been appropriate reparation to me for my 9 year old boy who stole a mini-flash light from me, after I told him he may not have one, but he took it anyway? I am all for reparation, but sometimes I have no idea what. Pay for it? We've done that, but eventually he does run out of money. And does he pay for the object, but doesn't get to keep it? I'm not trying to be snarky, because honestly we are frustrated and are believers in the whole "natural consequences" things and like the idea of reparation, but sometimes we honestly cannot flesh out the theory.

[justamouse]

What would have been appropriate reparation to me for my 9 year old boy who stole a mini-flash light from me, after I told him he may not have one, but he took it anyway? I am all for reparation, but sometimes I have no idea what. Pay for it? We've done that, but eventually he does run out of money. And does he pay for the object, but doesn't get to keep it? I'm not trying to be snarky, because honestly we are frustrated and are believers in the whole "natural consequences" things and like the idea of reparation, but sometimes we honestly cannot flesh out the theory.

 

 

He can load and unload the dishwasher, wash the pots and pans, take care of the animals, do your laundry, sweep the garage, vacuum the car, make beds...there are many things he can do.

 

My 9 year olds would be fully capable of all of that. (Not unloading all of the dishes, as some are high up.)

[KrissiK]

 

 

He can load and unload the dishwasher, wash the pots and pans, take care of the animals, do your laundry, sweep the garage, vacuum the car, make beds...there are many things he can do.

 

My 9 year olds would be fully capable of all of that. (NOt unloading all of the dishes, as some are high up.

 

How is that not punishment? See, I'd consider that punishment. Maybe it's all semantics. Granted, there are things that are punishment. Like, the evening he took the flashlight he got sent to bed early. Yes, that was punishment. I took some classes once on "peacemaking" and all that and a lot of the principles were from a program called victim/offender reconciliation. So, say some kid vandalized your fence and he gets caught. So, if it's appropriate and going through the court system, instead if the kid going to juvie, he comes and paints your fence. He does reparation. He ruined your fence, he paints it. There is correlation between the offense and the reparation. To me, genuine reparation must have something to do with the offense. Cleaning out the dishwasher has nothing to so with him stealing. It's just me having him do extra chores because he stole something. And this is where I get tripped up with the whole thing.

[justamouse]

Cleaning out the dishwasher has nothing to so with him stealing. It's just me having him do extra chores because he stole something. And this is where I get tripped up with the whole thing.

 

 

To a 9 yo it is reparation, because the offense was toward YOU, he stole it from you, and he cannot repay, he's 9, so he needs to do something *for you*.

 

The difference is where the heart leans and the words. "You stole something that was mine, how can you make this up to me?" Not, "I Can't believe you stole this, and you are going to unload that dishwasher until I tell you to stop."

 

The punishment paradigm is that of one higher coming down on one lower and using status to control. It's not respectful *of the person or the relationship*.

 

The reparation paradigm is one of healing a relationship of a wrong done.

[Aspasia]

"Developmentally normal"?? :huh:

 

Yes. It is. It's normal, when kids become cognitively capable of realizing that Mom doesn't actually know everything, to test the limits of that and maybe come out with some loot at the end of it. Maybe some kids indulge the urge more than others, but It is a completely normal tendency.

[SKL]

To a 9 yo it is reparation, because the offense was toward YOU, he stole it from you, and he cannot repay, he's 9, so he needs to do something *for you*.

 

The difference is where the heart leans and the words. "You stole something that was mine, how can you make this up to me?" Not, "I Can't believe you stole this, and you are going to unload that dishwasher until I tell you to stop."

 

The punishment paradigm is that of one higher coming down on one lower and using status to control. It's not respectful *of the person or the relationship*.

 

The reparation paradigm is one of healing a relationship of a wrong done.

 

I thought the child in question was 5yo? I'm not sure a child of 5 would see any difference at all. If anything, I think a 5yo who is self-centered enough to do this (as was my dd at 5) would view an extra chore as an easy way to put the incident behind him. "I'll just go through the motions for a while and they will get off my back." Not saying they should not do a chore, but I tend to agree that the concept that this is done to repair the relationship may well go over their head.

 

ETA: And also, I am not sure that I would treat "stealing from mom" as something that could harm the mother-child relationship. I totally get it if you're talking about a less-close relationship such as sibling / neighbor / teacher.

[Aspasia]

 

The punishment paradigm is that of one higher coming down on one lower and using status to control. It's not respectful *of the person or the relationship*.

 

The reparation paradigm is one of healing a relationship of a wrong done.

 

I like this.

[SKL]

Yes. It is. It's normal, when kids become cognitively capable of realizing that Mom doesn't actually know everything, to test the limits of that and maybe come out with some loot at the end of it. Maybe some kids indulge the urge more than others, but It is a completely normal tendency.

 

While I agree that it's normal for a child to, at some point or other, try stealing, I think what is being discussed here goes beyond that. It's not just giving in to a strong temptation or going for an occasional thrill. When kids sneak and horde regularly, it's to fulfill some sort of need that they feel. I don't think it's something all kids go through. However, it's common enough that most folks who deal with kids will see it from time to time.

[Critterfixer]

It's odd this came up, because I was thinking of posting about one of my ds and the issue I had with him lying to me the other day. He drew on the wall--not such a huge thing, but we've been over this and over this! You'd think "Don't draw on the wall!" would sink in sometime between 5 and 9. And here he is, 9 years old and he still sometimes draws on the wall. Or on the table. The table is OK. It's an old table. But the wall is a pain.

Anyway, the problem for me is that I can't tell when people are lying to me. I never have been able to tell. For my part, I have simply learned that when someone tells me anything I shouldn't trust them. People mean well, but they just lie. I deal with it. But it's hard when my son lies to me, because I can't tell!

But since he's the only one in the house that draws on the wall, I assumed. And he lied, then confessed. So I gave him a rag and had him scrub that spot. And scrub it. And scrub it. Wouldn't come off. We eventually got an eraser and that worked so well he went and found other places and erased them. I told him that lying is sort of like trying to clean up the pencil on the walls with the rag. It doesn't work and you end up having to keep at it and keep at it. The eraser was more like telling the truth. It didn't get you out of making things right, but it was a whole lot more effective! Anyway, he seemed to accept that and was a happy boy afterwards, because it was his brain wave to try the eraser.

Don't know if I handled that right or not. And it probably wouldn't mean a thing to a five year old, but maybe for an older child who isn't doing the lying out of malice--he just didn't want to get in trouble.

 

Not quite the same thing as stealing or hording things, but the idea of reparation is interesting to me. I'll have to digest it more to think of how to put it into action for things like arguing or hitting.

[justamouse]

this is a great post on restitution consequences

 

 

 

 

 

Restitution consequences are radically different from traditional “punishments.†Punishing the offender usually breeds resentment and therefore more and craftier aggression toward the unpunished child.Restitution consequences encourage personal responsibility and usually end with one child feeling cared for and the other feeling caring.