Question regarding "minority quotas"

[swimmermom3]

This morning my oldest son shared a statement from a fellow high school swimmer that has me totally on edge. My ds had applied to the U.S. Coast Guard Academy's summer AIM program and was turned down as was the fellow swimmer. This young man told my ds that the reason they did not make it was because of minority quotas. :huh:

 

If my son was not accepted to the AIM program, it is entirely due to his own shortcomings. What worries me is that this isn't the first time my son has mentioned something like this and I have heard it from a few of his friends. What gives?

 

At my first job after college. I was completely baffled by the young, white male from an upper middle class family that informed me that he did not get into the college of his choice due to "minority quotas." I had figured that if I did not get into a college, it was because I didn't meet the requirements or that if I did, the school was full and I was in the bottom portion of qualified students. I hadn't really heard much along this line of thinking until the recent election and all of the hype that went with it.

 

How would a person know that "their" position was filled by a minority with fewer qualifications? Are there studies that support this or is it a bunch of sour grapes?

 

For whatever reason, my older kids tend to have friends of a particular faith and the young man I heard it first from was also of that faith, so I do not know if I am hearing is part of that culture or part of a broader theory.

 

I am afraid I lit into my son with little restraint. I mentor two minority students who hope to be the first in their families to attend college. They face enormous challenges the like of which my son has never seen. My two oldest have been given every advantage and all the encouragement possible and they could care less about college. That whole thought process just infuriates me.

 

Sorry. Rant over - I think.

[SKL]

Well, this phenomenon does exist. However, I am not sure how any individual would know he or she would have made it but for the diversity initiatives.

 

Sometimes you'll hear of a different cutoff or additional "points" for people of certain demographics. But I would think that most individual candidates would not know enough details to determine whether their non-acceptance was due to this versus just not being as "good" as the folks who got accepted.

 

No doubt there is a lot of sour grapes involved.

 

This is my biggest reason to dislike "quotas" / diversity initiatives that involve lowering the bar for some. It feeds racist attitudes. My daughters are "people of color" and I would not want them to have better opportunities just based on their color. They should have to work for it like everyone else.

 

That said, I know what you mean when you talk about the difficulties some minority kids face. The way to approach this is to help them develop qualifications, not to waive qualifications, IMO.

[Candid]

There's an excellent book that covers the extras those with money or connections get:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Price-Admission-Americas-Colleges--/dp/1400097975/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1357665337&sr=8-1&keywords=the+price+of+admission

 

It also talks about minority admissions, while they do exist to some extent their are some minorities that have to score higher to get into some schools so it is a mixed bag.

[Alice]

My first day of medical school I sat behind a guy who was loudly talking about how he knew that his MCAT scores must be higher than all the women and minorities, since we were obviously just there to fill quotas. I tapped him on the shoulder and offered to compare scores if he wanted. Not surprisingly he declined. :)

[FaithManor]

My first day of medical school I sat behind a guy who was loudly talking about how he knew that his MCAT scores must be higher than all the women and minorities, since we were obviously just there to fill quotas. I tapped him on the shoulder and offered to compare scores if he wanted. Not surprisingly he declined. :)

 

Good for you Alice!

 

I've heard of quotas. But, I know that when my mil was the dean of a nursing department, in order to avoid any accusations of discrimination, all applications submitted did not include a picture, nor asked for gender, race, and faith. Obviously, with many names, once could guess male or female. However, the way the applications were scored was that points were awarded strictly based on test scores, grades, volunteerism, previous licensing such as having earned the CNA license or am EMT license, etc. and then the points were added up. There were 24 openings each semester and the top 24 point earners were invited to attend. If all entered the program, it was a done. If someone opted not to, the next highest point earner was contacted. However, that occurred only to a certain threshold. Past that minimum (and it was pretty high) they would not fill slots. So, some semesters, there might be only 22 or even fewer. Since the college of nursing at her school had a 100% pass rate for first time board takers, they were not interested in giving a chance to lower performers who were seen as risking their ranking. She most certainly had minorities every semester who made it...often this was the case. In her area, there was incentive for Spanish speakers to go into the profession because the area hospitals really needed bilingual staff and offered sign-on bonuses for fully bilingual job seekers. Since the point system was very well known and it was also highly published that they didn't give bonus points to any group, she never had to worry about her office being filled with accusers.

 

Faith

[In The Great White North]

How would a person know that "their" position was filled by a minority with fewer qualifications? Are there studies that support this or is it a bunch of sour grapes?[/color]]

 

They probably get the idea from stuff like this:

 

from a Supreme Court case in 2007 http://ns.umich.edu/new/releases/20237

 

Chief Justice William Rehnquist issued the majority opinion in the College of Literature, Science, and the Arts (LSA) case, declaring that while existing affirmative action law established in the Regents of the University of California v. Bakke allows for race to be a factor in the admissions process, it must not be a "deciding factor." At issue, said justices, is the point value given to minority applicants.[/color]

"The university's policy, which automatically distributes 20 points, or one-fifth of the points needed to guarantee admission, to every single 'underrepresented minority' applicant solely because of race, is not narrowly tailored to achieve the interest in educational diversity that respondents claim justifies their program," Rehnquist wrote.]

(bolding mine)

 

and here's a few more cases:

 

http://www.vpcomm.um...chronology.html

 

ETA: This is the first time I've tried to quote on the new and improved boards. I have no idea what happened to the quote but it is at that link.

[regentrude]

Not sour grapes, but definitely reality; just look at all the law suits regarding affirmative action.

It is a fact that schools do consider race in admissions. Just google "race and college admission".

Not sure we are allowed to debate this here, because it is politics.

[swimmermom3]

Thank you everyone for your replies and if there is more to add that could violate board rules, please pm me. I would like to have a knowledgable discussion with my son as well as having a better understanding for myself.

 

I think his comment felt very emotionally charged for me due to my frustration with where my own kids are at and wanting to do everything I can to help the students that I am mentoring. When I look at their situations and try to come up with solutions, I feel like an ignoramous.

[Heather in WI]

Trying to be non-political and link actual news stories. :-)

 

 

The CGA used to forbid considering "an applicant's sex, race, color and religious beliefs as it shapes the makeup of its classes." Congress recently eliminated this prohibition according to this article:

 

Ethnicity, gender now factors in CGA admissions

 

I read this article last year about USNA. I don't know if it can be extrapolated that admission practices are the same at the CGA.

 

'Best and brightest'? Academy's admission of minorities, recruited athletes comes under scrutiny

[Teachin'Mine]

Sorry your son didn't get in, but it's probably not even so much about his qualifications as it is about it being an extremely competitive program with only so many seats to fill. Good for him for trying!

1. Yes, diversity is sought by colleges and programs because it benefits all. IMO it's sour grapes and a few other things I won't mention. I think it's great that you'll be continuing this discussion with your son as he's probably been getting all his info from his peers and other families. For years athletes, great musicians and artists, and others that the colleges want to attract have been admitted with different standards, yet no one complained that it was due to this policy that they weren't admitted.
   

I have no idea how that no. 1. got there, but I can't seem to delete it either. lol

[creekland]

I'm with SKL. Quotas often (not always) exist and they do affect admissions, but I'm not sure how any one person would know they were affected.

 

Quotas aren't always based upon race, gender, etc. Sometimes they are geographical. If a school wants participants from all 50 states and there are only two applying from Montana, those two have better odds than being one of a bunch from Virginia (or vice versa).

 

It's also fairly well known that rural applicants can have an advantage at some schools, though less at others.

 

Within race/gender and quota schools, our guidance office (and college confidential) tell me that it's toughest for Asians to get in, then Caucasians. It's also usually tougher for women to get in than men, but this depends upon the actual makeup of the school.

 

Some schools have eliminated quotas - it's easy to google their current class compositions to see how this has affected them.

 

I'm torn on whether I agree with quotas or not...

[unsinkable]

Lisa,

 

Are you wondering if quotas are used to fill the spots in that particular program or if they exist in general?

 

 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

This morning my oldest son shared a statement from a fellow high school swimmer that has me totally on edge. My ds had applied to the U.S. Coast Guard Academy's summer AIM program and was turned down as was the fellow swimmer. This young man told my ds that the reason they did not make it was because of minority quotas. :huh:

 

If my son was not accepted to the AIM program, it is entirely due to his own shortcomings. What worries me is that this isn't the first time my son has mentioned something like this and I have heard it from a few of his friends. What gives?

 

At my first job after college. I was completely baffled by the young, white male from an upper middle class family that informed me that he did not get into the college of his choice due to "minority quotas." I had figured that if I did not get into a college, it was because I didn't meet the requirements or that if I did, the school was full and I was in the bottom portion of qualified students. I hadn't really heard much along this line of thinking until the recent election and all of the hype that went with it.

 

How would a person know that "their" position was filled by a minority with fewer qualifications? Are there studies that support this or is it a bunch of sour grapes?

 

For whatever reason, my older kids tend to have friends of a particular faith and the young man I heard it first from was also of that faith, so I do not know if I am hearing is part of that culture or part of a broader theory.

 

I am afraid I lit into my son with little restraint. I mentor two minority students who hope to be the first in their families to attend college. They face enormous challenges the like of which my son has never seen. My two oldest have been given every advantage and all the encouragement possible and they could care less about college. That whole thought process just infuriates me.

 

Sorry. Rant over - I think.

 

I can't speak to Coast Guard's program, but the summer seminar for Navy frequently has enough applicants to fill the program several times over. Being accepted for summer seminar does not indicate that a student is a shoe in for applying to USNA. Nor does being turned down for the summer program indicate that a student would not be accepted to the academy.

 

Factors that could affect selection to a summer program include class rank and gpa (which home schoolers typically don't have), PSAT/SAT/ACT test scores, geographic location (is it an area or state that frequently has low applications or would the applicant have the chance to visit for the day or a weekend outside of the summer program), Summer programs (at any school) serve a range of functions. They may be to encourage students to apply (at all or perhaps early), to target a particular group that hasn't applied/attended much, to create a certain cache, or even as a fund raiser for the school.

 

I'm not going to comment on diversity, other than to say that my most impressive candidates over the last nine years have been white, black, hispanic and asian; male and female. And the most unqualified candidates over the last nine years have been white, black, hispanic and asian; male and female.

[SKL]

 

I'm not going to comment on diversity, other than to say that my most impressive candidates over the last nine years have been white, black, hispanic and asian; male and female. And the most unqualified candidates over the last nine years have been white, black, hispanic and asian; male and female.

 

I agree with this. It's my experience as well. I am against quotas per se, and the folks I've hired (of all races/both genders) have been hired based on my opinion on whether they would do the job well. Unfortunately it's often assumed that I'm racist if I don't like quotas.

 

Diversity is more than skin color, too. I think it would benefit Americans to give a bit more thought to the value of diversity in respects other than physical ones.

[Murmer]

According to a book I ready Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria. There has been research done that show that affirmative action is needed because when comparing 2 highly qualified people (with the same resume) of whom 1 is white the other black the black person was considered less well qualified than the white person. It is a hidden bias thing.

[Arcadia]

How would a person know that "their" position was filled by a minority with fewer qualifications? Are there studies that support this or is it a bunch of sour grapes?

 

"Challenging Race Sensitive Admission Policies A Summary of Important Rulings" - interesting read on court cases.

 

"Race Sensitive Admissions The debate on using race as a factor in admitting students" - PBS page on the issues

[beaners]

There have been areas outside college admission too.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/30/us/30scotus.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

I'm not finding it now, but I remember reading an article from around that time that said a white male could have had a perfect test score on a job test (civil service maybe?), and come out with a much lower overall score than someone else based on points for being part of a minority. I "get" the reasoning behind it, and behind college admissions too. The actual system as it plays out presents the assumption that a female or minority in a high-level or typically male position is less qualified than white male counterparts.