SOCIAL GROUP: Discussing Progressive Christianity

[Joanne]

Sure. I want to know more about this desire for community. I am a solitary girl, I understand many reasons why other people desire community in religion. I still don't get how being a solitary practitioner is not an option for so many. Is it because they are community in religion people only? I don't understand why someone has to stop identifying as a pagan because their local pagan group doesn't work for them or why they can't be a solitary quaker or whatever. If you currently belong to a religion of one, what are these other people you are trying to find for?

 

 

 

"Solitary" is an option. But I like information - and finding Pagan information is quite rich with elaborate do's/don't's and rituals. I was disappointed to find exclusion.

 

I don't need/want a group of people to define my spirituality or to express it. I was just looking for an array of inclusive expression, and I've found a surprising (to me) amount of scripted ritual, hierarchy, and other accourtrements I was trying to leave behind.

 

To address another aspect of this developing thread, one of the main attractions to me in terms of progressive spirituality is the inclusiveness. This thread has taken an odd turn away from that.

 

I also feel that this thread has gathered some of the traditional Christian elements that made me leave Christianity - and to me, that's anathema to the point of the thread.

 

I'd enjoy this thread if it were encouraging and supportive. I participate in *other* threads if I want debate.

 

But if the masses are ok with the trajectory, I'll go practice solo. ;)

[Matryoshka]

I guess that is the advantage to having a label, Matryoshka. With a label, you can find a yahoo or FB group to join. :p The mods on my pagan group take turns to float questions to stimulate conversation. Would it be too personal to ask what you think you should meditate about? I don't think I'm a meditating sort of girl, but I do think a lot. It's a cheap hobby. :p

 

 

I don't think I should meditate about anything.

 

One thing our minister said once really resonated with me. It was something along the lines of "A part of us is always listening to God, but we have to be very quiet to hear."

 

That's not even quite right... (that's not what she said, it was something close that sounded way better! :tongue_smilie:)

 

Has anyone else read all three of Philip Pullman's The Golden Compass trilogy? As embarrassing as it is to say I found something that resonated with me theologically in a YA book (that I think quite wrongly is considered anti-religion or anit-God), I found the way he described Dust in those books to be very similar to the way I think of God. It's everywhere in the universe, our souls are made of it, when we die we become part of it again (well, in the book that's after the souls are rescued from a "heaven" that is much more like "hell" - but that's completely beside my point here... :tongue_smilie:). Yet although it's kind of this live/soul force that imbues everything in the universe, it's not unconscious. In the book, the Dust guides the main character through that Compass, and in another spot, someone develops a machine that allows it to speak with a voice. Now, I don't think there could ever be compasses or machines to listen to God, but I still have a feeling that God is part of us, in us, that the universe is somehow there, and may have something to tell us, if we just quiet down and listen. Maybe God is the frequency that all those Strings in string theory is vibrating at. :) Anyhow, I think a lot of people find this connection through prayer (I always hear "pray about it and God will tell you what to do), but that kind of prayer does not come naturally to me. While I do sometimes pray, it's more like me talking to God and asking something (which I don't really expect an answer on), but I while I feel awkward and bad at it, I do think there's power in prayer, or directed consciousness, especially when many minds are together. Meditation would be more about quieting my mind, and hope that maybe some part of me could hear that vibration. I know that meditation can bring centering and calm, and maybe that's why??

 

What someone else said about us all having dial-up to God (or maybe just some soup cans and string) and the Prophets/teachers like Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed - have FiOS (or something to that effect) speaks to that idea.

[Mergath]

I don't have the mental energy at this point to deal with any more pmed nastygrams, so I'll be bowing out of the thread now. I hope you guys enjoy your discussions and learn lots. :)

[Jenny in Florida]

I don't have the mental energy at this point to deal with any more pmed nastygrams, so I'll be bowing out of the thread now. I hope you guys enjoy your discussions and learn lots. :)

 

 

I'm so sorry that happened! It is absolutely not the spirit in which this thread was intended.

 

Seriously, folks, we've got at least two or three people who've had their feelings hurt and/or been made to feel unwelcome, which is exactly the opposite of what this thread should be about. One of the hallmarks of what I'm coming to understand as progressive Christianity is radical inclusiveness. I would very much appreciate it if we could try practicing that concept here.

 

Thanks.

[Matryoshka]

I don't have the mental energy at this point to deal with any more pmed nastygrams, so I'll be bowing out of the thread now. I hope you guys enjoy your discussions and learn lots. :)

 

 

Whaaat? Who is sending pm nastygrams? That's just no okay. I agree with Jenny and Joanne that this discussion should be held in a spirit of inclusiveness and being able to share without fear of judgement. I have really enjoyed your contributions to this thread. Don't go away.

 

Whoever sent nastygrams should be ashamed and they should just stop reading this thread if they don't like what they're reading. :glare:

[Izzy]

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[Snow]

Sheesh. Mergath, thats crazy. I'm sorry that this thread has turned a bit ugly. I think it might help if we establish that this is a support group type of thread. Some discussion, very little debate. Tons of support. If we want someone to challenge our ideas in a loving way, we should ask for it in the post (I.e., help me see the negatives to thinking this way; or, help me work through these remnants of an ideology i dont want to believe anymore, etc). Otherwise, lets not poke holes in theories, just support. Of course, that's just my take on it.

 

Regardless, I definitely think we are suffering from lack of purpose and if we can define our purpose here, things may get better.

 

[Izzy]

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[Izzy]

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[Mergath]

 

 

Whaaat? Who is sending pm nastygrams? That's just no okay. I agree with Jenny and Joanne that this discussion should be held in a spirit of inclusiveness and being able to share without fear of judgement. I have really enjoyed your contributions to this thread. Don't go away.

 

Whoever sent nastygrams should be ashamed and they should just stop reading this thread if they don't like what they're reading. :glare:

 

No, it's fine. There are a few people who apparently aren't comfortable with my ideas, and I'm already trying to get over the bad experiences I had with Christians in the past, so it's probably for the best if I just slowly back away, lol.

[Izzy]

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[Izzy]

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[Mergath]

Well, if that's the case count me out too. :/

 

 

No, no, you stay. I don't want to cause a minor kerfuffle, lol. I just didn't want you guys to think I'd disappeared in a puff of smoke because of something in the thread or whatever. It's fine. Stay, discuss. :)

[8circles]

 

 

No, it's fine. There are a few people who apparently aren't comfortable with my ideas, and I'm already trying to get over the bad experiences I had with Christians in the past, so it's probably for the best if I just slowly back away, lol.

 

ugh. Im sorry. I got some nastygram pms during a different religious discussion. Yuck.

[Matryoshka]

No, it's fine. There are a few people who apparently aren't comfortable with my ideas, and I'm already trying to get over the bad experiences I had with Christians in the past, so it's probably for the best if I just slowly back away, lol.

 

:( Hey, I expect many (most?) of the people here, even if they are using the label "Progressive Christian" don't necessarily identify as Christian in public - I know I don't. I know if I am honest about my beliefs and called myself Christian, all the über-Christians would spend all their free time telling me how I didn't fulfill even one of their critera for what it means to be Christian. I'd say I'm more Christian-leaning, or Christian-ish, but boy, I think that would get their panties even more into a wad...

 

I think the only thing not allowed on this thread should be "you should believe this because..." "or "you should agree with my belief because..." . This is why I was excited to see this thread - I love to talk about/think about this kind of stuff, but I have never even pondered participating in any of the other threads of this nature (even though I read them) because, well, my beliefs don't even begin to line up with any of those other threads, and yeah, I don't want to participate where I'm not welcome, or be flamed. I had nothing of relevance to say in any of those.

 

I didn't even think to consider there would be enough people here to have a thread like this, and I'm so happy to see that I may be very wrong, but if the very people who are kindred spirits (or kindred searchers?) bow out, who will there be left to talk to? :(

 

Please stay. And if you (generic you) are reading this thread and you don't like what you're reading, please keep it to yourself, like I do on the other threads. Be respectful.

[Onceuponatime]

I don't have the mental energy at this point to deal with any more pmed nastygrams, so I'll be bowing out of the thread now. I hope you guys enjoy your discussions and learn lots. :)

 

This surprised me. I guess I am naive. Please don't go.

[Rosie_0801]

"Solitary" is an option. But I like information - and finding Pagan information is quite rich with elaborate do's/don't's and rituals. I was disappointed to find exclusion.

 

I kind of think they have to do that. How on earth would you run a ritual if there was no agreed on sequence? But I've found that online pagan groups are quite unlike that. The one I'm part of is VERY inclusive. I suppose because the purpose is different. Chatting and learning other pov's works better if everyone is not the same, running a ritual works better if everyone agrees. Maybe it's a cultural difference too. Everyone in my online group, no matter how nit picky they can get on certain issues (naming a child after a deity is rather like discussing crockpots here!) they still believe we are all on our own path. I don't know what the need to control is like face to face, but it doesn't come out online. I guess also that there has to be something more formal at a face to face gathering or people will feel they may as well have stayed home and chatted on the FB group. Not that it matters. :) I've just woken up and am feeling chatty, but I'll stop now because this thread is supposed to be about progressive Christianity.

 

 

I think I know what you mean Matryoshka. I think you are referring to what others call the Uncarved Block. :)

 

Whomever is sending nasty messages to Mergath is very silly for not noticing I'm 'worse' than she is. So knock it off.

[Izzy]

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[Jenny in Florida]

I think the only thing not allowed on this thread should be "you should believe this because..." "or "you should agree with my belief because..." . This is why I was excited to see this thread - I love to talk about/think about this kind of stuff, but I have never even pondered participating in any of the other threads of this nature (even though I read them) because, well, my beliefs don't even begin to line up with any of those other threads, and yeah, I don't want to participate where I'm not welcome, or be flamed. I had nothing of relevance to say in any of those.

 

I didn't even think to consider there would be enough people here to have a thread like this, and I'm so happy to see that I may be very wrong, but if the very people who are kindred spirits (or kindred searchers?) bow out, who will there be left to talk to? :(

 

Please stay. And if you (generic you) are reading this thread and you don't like what you're reading, please keep it to yourself, like I do on the other threads. Be respectful.

 

Dare I say . . . Amen!

[Onceuponatime]

Rosie, I had been kind of hoping that you and others would elaborate on practicing your spirituality alone and creating a sacred space. I've never been into ritual, but symbolism is something I've enjoyed for a long time. My home is naturally filled with symbols of nature, home, and family in the colors and decor. I did this unconsciously because that is what gave me pleasure. I've recently become aware that I could be more deliberate in arranging "my space" to enhance the connection I feel to these things. I have some very specific ideas in mind that come from a variety of traditions. Is this the kind of thing you mean?

[Matryoshka]

Rosie, I had been kind of hoping that you and others would elaborate on practicing your spirituality alone and creating a sacred space. I've never been into ritual, but symbolism is something I've enjoyed for a long time. My home is naturally filled with symbols of nature, home, and family in the colors and decor. I did this unconsciously because that is what gave me pleasure. I've recently become aware that I could be more deliberate in arranging "my space" to enhance the connection I feel to these things. I have some very specific ideas in mind that come from a variety of traditions. Is this the kind of thing you mean?

 

I agree. Rosie, I've found your contributions to this thread very worthwhile. I think many of us on this path (or finding our own path up the mountain) find resonance in some Earth-based religious practices. And asking us questions is actually very helpful as it gives food for discussion. :) Feel free to stick around!

 

Hey, and which one of the things I was babbling about is the Uncarved Block? Could you elaborate on that? :bigear:

[SunnyDays]

I can't believe that anyone would send nasty messages over this thread! How disheartening. Mergath, I'm sorry. :grouphug: I don't want you to go, I don't want Joanne to go. I think there are a lot of interesting discussions waiting for us on this thread.

 

Part of what we're doing here is exploring. We're not going to agree on everything, and that's okay... variety is the spice of life and all that. I think we could all learn a lot from one another. Some of you have very different beliefs than I do, but that's okay... I think knowing what we *don't* believe is as helpful as knowing what we *do* believe, as long as everyone can stay respectful.

 

Now, that said...

 

Talk of "solitary" practices is intriguing to me. I've never really put that with Christianity before, most people just call it devotions or time with God. No real rituals or anything. I'm picturing myself lighting a candle while I read scripture or another inspirational book, with a specific prayer said before or after, something like that. It's appealing.

[elegantlion]

I actually like to listen to worship music. I was involved with a contemporary worship ministry for a few years, that's one part I haven't let go. I lean toward hard rock, metal christian music, with the occasional "power ballad to God". I also enjoy, but haven't listened to lately, Matt Redman, Tim Hughes, more worship centered music. It's freeing to me, even in my disconnected journey, because music has always been important to me and I can crank it up and it becomes about me and God without a wall or fence.

 

I've spent a lot of time in the past reading through Psalms, not just as words, but as lyrics and songs. OTOH, I have a harder time with traditional hymns, part of it the bad experience as a child in church. Part of it that some people are of the mindset that there can't be contemporary hymns by contemporary artists, I disagree.

[Rosie_0801]

I agree. Rosie, I've found your contributions to this thread very worthwhile. I think many of us on this path (or finding our own path up the mountain) find resonance in some Earth-based religious practices. And asking us questions is actually very helpful as it gives food for discussion. :) Feel free to stick around!

 

 

Thanks :) And I'm hard to get rid of on religious threads. :p

 

If you people are moving away from some or all of Christianity, you aren't going to find the answers or info you need from Christians. If that was going to work for you, it would have by now, so to get anywhere, you need someone else to show up. So I'm here, channeling my inner Queen of Cups. :p Take it or leave it. I don't mind what any of you believe or don't as long as you feel healthy doing it. :)

 

Rosie, I had been kind of hoping that you and others would elaborate on practicing your spirituality alone and creating a sacred space. I've never been into ritual, but symbolism is something I've enjoyed for a long time. My home is naturally filled with symbols of nature, home, and family in the colors and decor. I did this unconsciously because that is what gave me pleasure. I've recently become aware that I could be more deliberate in arranging "my space" to enhance the connection I feel to these things. I have some very specific ideas in mind that come from a variety of traditions. Is this the kind of thing you mean?

 

 

I never thought I was into ritual either, in a religious sense, though I am fond of routine in daily life, as long as I can toss it and go on a road trip occasionally! Turns out there are a few ritual things that work for me, so I do them. "Sacred space" is one of those useful phrases I use when talking to other people, rather like using Christianese when talking to Christians, but it's not really one I apply to myself.

 

What isn't sacred space? The chapel in the solitary confinement block at Port Arthur in Tasmania (historical penal colony) is the least sacred place I've ever been. Oh woe, that place is so unhappy you could cut it with a knife. This house I live in loses it's sacredness (if I'm going to use that word) when my ex is here... Hmm. Yes. Houses are a good example of the levels and flow of sacred space-ness. Sitting on the porch watching the light shining on the gum and wattle trees, preferably while chatting to my brother about a topic with some meat to it and drinking ginger beer, is house and occupants in sacred mode. Someone having taken the kids for a walk while I tackle a project is house and occupant in sacred mode. At least until the sewing machine packs it in, I realise I've sewn a sleeve inside out or they show up before my nice clean floor has dried! And house is in a sort of neutral mode when conducting reading lessons, watching movie repeats, doing dishes etc. You know...

 

Practicing my spirituality alone? Well I'm not sure really how else I would practice it. It'd be nice to have someone on location to raise my kids with, dig my garden with, travel with, cook and eat with, read books with, fix the world's problems with, someone to care that I care and reciprocate. But the rest of it happens within the privacy of my own head, really. I don't need someone to believe the same as I do. I don't need anyone to decorate my altar with. I don't need anyone to care what I'm decorating my altar with. I don't really need anyone to celebrate my Wheel of the Year days either.

 

But your house sounds very nice, and it sounds like your decorating is your ritual because it makes you think the things you want to think, or feel the connection you want to feel, while you are doing it. You keep symbols. I keep books, craft supplies, umpteen bottles of different vinegars and oils, a hundred kilos of dried beans and jars of spices that I don't use alongside the ones I do.

 

Sometimes we find we already have the beliefs, connection, ritual and such that we need, and it just takes someone to provide the right vocal so our brains can click into seeing it that way.

 

 

Oh man. I've taken so long typing out this great long blurb that others have already replied to other stuff. Matryoshka, it was your meditating that sounded like the Uncarved Block. You can look it up on Wiki or read the Te of Piglet, I think it is. Usually found as part 2 of the Tao of Pooh.

[Snow]

I have an idea...what if we have a group "not quite a Christian" or a "spiritual" group or something to that effect? That way we all have a place to chat without being put down for not being Christian enough or at all. Honestly, I don't identify as Christian because I don't want to be grouped into "one of those Christians", the exclusive and judgmental ones.

 

Can we please form a religion where everyone is equal and no one gets excluded. Oh, and we can talk all things spiritual? :p

 

 

I keep trying to stay away from this saying this but I can't. I am surprised at how many people expressed interest in a "Christianity" thread who are not Christian. I say that very matter of factly, no judgement. But it seems the thread is pointing away from being "Christian" in nature and instead toward just an open and inclusive spirituality. Perhaps it should be renamed the good 'ol "spiritual but not religious" thread, which would be accurate, more inclusive of the pagan, earth based philosophies and not give people the impression that participants believe in the divinity of Jesus like the name Christian infers.

[Rosie_0801]

 

Talk of "solitary" practices is intriguing to me. I've never really put that with Christianity before, most people just call it devotions or time with God. No real rituals or anything. I'm picturing myself lighting a candle while I read scripture or another inspirational book, with a specific prayer said before or after, something like that. It's appealing.

 

 

Devotions or time with God is a real ritual as it is. It's not a fake ritual is it? (Is there such thing as a fake ritual? Lol) A ritual is an appointment with an idea that has a beginning, middle and an end. So say you like to pray. The beginning is you sit yourself down somewhere. The middle is you say what you want to say. The end is when you say 'Amen' and get back up again. Candles, particular clothes, times, locations etc are assisting devices. Some people need them to get in the groove. Some don't. Some do sometimes and not at other times. They should not be viewed as crutches that you should learn to do without. They are human things and while it is noble to be a good sort of human, it is not noble to work towards not being one.

[Snow]

I'm curious how many of us feel we have a solid grounding in Bible literacy?

 

 

Thanks for sharing your story. I agree, probably not too many people here and I think I had a different idea than the other posters about what this thread was about. Sorry

[Onceuponatime]

Thanks :) You keep symbols. I keep books, craft supplies, umpteen bottles of different vinegars and oils, a hundred kilos of dried beans and jars of spices that I don't use alongside the ones I do. Sometimes we find we already have the beliefs, connection, ritual and such that we need, and it just takes someone to provide the right vocal so our brains can click into seeing it that way. .

This is what I suspected. Speaking of dishes, I've always hated that particular necessary ritual, until recently. After Christmas, I put a votive and a tiny vase with greenery in the window sill in front of my sink. I hung a crystal that I have kept in drawer for years from the top of the window. Seeing these things while I wash at least neutralizes my intense dislike for the task. :D

 

I keep trying to stay away from this saying this but I can't. I am surprised at how many people expressed interest in a "Christianity" thread who are not Christian. I say that very matter of factly, no judgement. But it seems the thread is pointing away from being "Christian" in nature and instead toward just an open and inclusive spirituality. Perhaps it should be renamed the good 'ol "spiritual but not religious" thread, which would be accurate, more inclusive of the pagan, earth based philosophies and not give people the impression that participants believe in the divinity of Jesus like the name Christian infers.

 

Well, some of us would like the name Christian to be expanded to include those that practice the teachings of Jesus and use the Bible as springboard for their spirituality, but do not necessarily believe that Jesus is Supernatural or that the Bible is the literal word of God.

[Rosie_0801]

This is what I suspected. Speaking of dishes, I've always hated that particular necessary ritual, until recently. After Christmas, I put a votive and a tiny vase with greenery in the window sill in front of my sink. I hung a crystal that I have kept in drawer for years from the top of the window. Seeing these things while I wash at least neutralizes my intense dislike for the task. :D

 

*Like*

[Onceuponatime]

 

I'm curious how many of us feel we have a solid grounding in Bible literacy?

 

I do feel as though I have a solid grounding in Bible literacy. I've read the entire Bible and intensively studied many specific books, some multiple times. In the last few years I've focused on the history of different books and traditional views. This is mostly from a protestant perspective, but I have recently become more interested in Catholic and Orthodox viewpoints as well. I am less familiar with what are called apochryphal books.

[Snow]

This is what I suspected. Speaking of dishes, I've always hated that particular necessary ritual, until recently. After Christmas, I put a votive and a tiny vase with greenery in the window sill in front of my sink. I hung a crystal that I have kept in drawer for years from the top of the window. Seeing these things while I wash at least neutralizes my intense dislike for the task. :D

 

 

 

Well, some of us would like the name Christian to be expanded to include those that practice the teachings of Jesus and use the Bible as springboard for their spirituality, but do not necessarily believe that Jesus is Supernatural or that the Bible is the literal word of God.

 

Hmmm.....thinking......

 

just to clarify, I don't think he's the only divine prophet nor do I take the bible literally.

 

I think I'm going to stay quiet for awhile. This whole thread has me very surprised by my own posts and reactions. I think I'm getting too emotional over it.

[Rosie_0801]

Hmmm.....thinking......

 

just to clarify, I don't think he's the only divine prophet nor do I take the bible literally.

 

Over here we call that Liberal Christianity. Or Christianity for short. :p

 

I think I'm going to stay quiet for awhile. This whole thread has me very surprised by my own posts and reactions. I think I'm getting too emotional over it.

 

Well that is a sure sign you've found something worth thinking about! :grouphug:

[Onceuponatime]

Hmmm.....thinking......

 

just to clarify, I don't think he's the only divine prophet nor do I take the bible literally.

 

I think I'm going to stay quiet for awhile. This whole thread has me very surprised by my own posts and reactions. I think I'm getting too emotional over it.

 

I'm sorry, think I'm getting confused as to what people actually mean in some of their posts.

[Izzy]

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[Jenny in Florida]

Perhaps it should be renamed the good 'ol "spiritual but not religious" thread, which would be accurate, more inclusive of the pagan, earth based philosophies and not give people the impression that participants believe in the divinity of Jesus like the name Christian infers.

 

I'm going to disagree.

 

I don't think one needs to accept the divinity of Jesus in order to be a Christian. I think, as a Buddhist follows the teachings of the Buddha, a Christian is one who chooses to follow the teachings of Jesus. And there's room for an awful lot of debate about exactly what those teachings are.

 

Saying you can't be a Christian unless you pass this one particular test some other Christian decided to put in place is exactly the kind of thing that turns off people who might otherwise be packing the pews.

[Izzy]

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[Izzy]

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[Joanne]

I keep trying to stay away from this saying this but I can't. I am surprised at how many people expressed interest in a "Christianity" thread who are not Christian. I say that very matter of factly, no judgement. But it seems the thread is pointing away from being "Christian" in nature and instead toward just an open and inclusive spirituality. Perhaps it should be renamed the good 'ol "spiritual but not religious" thread, which would be accurate, more inclusive of the pagan, earth based philosophies and not give people the impression that participants believe in the divinity of Jesus like the name Christian infers.

 

 

 

The OP is heading closer to Christian. That is why the title and intent are what they are.

 

But the type of Christian she is moving towards is more represented in this thread - not traditional Christian.

 

More like the type of Christian many people who claim the label would say is not Christian.

[mommymilkies]

I've been trying to stay out of a lot of the arguments. It's hard to figure out what to say in 10 second bursts between kid emergencies. ;)

 

We have "variety" here which is to say I live in the boonies so all we have are churches and bars. But only one good bar that doesn't make me scared of catching germs just walking by the place. We have a beautiful Catholic church across the street from my house, but this is such a closed community, I am weird about trying any out. Most of the churches here are conservative Christian, otherwise. The beautiful Anglican church down the block closed right before we moved in this house. But we don't have Quaker meetings, UUs, Pagan groups, EO, synagogues, or anything of the sort within at least 1.5 hours of here.

 

Plus our coffee shop closes at 3 p.m. and closes on sunday, so nobody (me) can ever go there. :glare:

 

Why groups? Well, I have always been an outsider. I have never felt like I belonged. I'm not baptised or anything, so that leaves my welcome at many churches out (they look at you like you're an alien). I was told since my mother never fully converted to Judaism that I would not belong unless I went through a separate conversion. Which I tried and still felt out of place because it's such a familial thing. I was a bullied dork in school. I did feel like I belonged when I went to church camp as a kid. Yes, I know. My mother didn't tell my stepdad (Jewish) that it was "church" sleep away camp and I went for a week two years in a row. It was great. I had a Catholic study bible and one other girl let me in on the secret that she was Catholic (it was not a Catholic camp) and people were very welcoming and inclusive and wonderful. I'm not just trying to get that back. I would like to eventually feel like I belonged somewhere. To find my niche. Something online relationships just don't fully fulfill.

[Rosie_0801]

 

How would your spirituality or religion be different if there was absolutely no fear of hell? Maybe I'm the only one that worries but I do worry. It's just so ingrained in me. I would love to have that sense of freedom to explore many religions and figure out my own path without any fear whatsoever.

 

It is very liberating to lose one's fear of hell. I'd hazard a guess that losing yours would mean you would do the exploring you are doing anyway, just faster. :grouphug:

[MIch elle]

Marus Borg, a Christian, says that Jesus was a Jewish mystic or like St. Francis with an exclamation point. Christianity is about "the way." I agree.

 

Marcus Borg, "..the gospel is the way." "The way in Mark and in the New Testament generally is not about how to get to heaven; the afterlife are not central to the message of Jesus. The Way is about a path of transformation in this side of death - not heaven. The path is about following Jesus."

 

[Jenny in Florida]

The OP is heading closer to Christian. That is why the title and intent are what they are. But the type of Christian she is moving towards is more represented in this thread - not traditional Christian. More like the type of Christian many people who claim the label would say is not Christian.

 

Marus Borg, a Christian, says that Jesus was a Jewish mystic or like St. Francis with an exclamation point. Christianity is about "the way." I agree. Marcus Borg, "..the gospel is the way." "The way in Mark and in the New Testament generally is not about how to get to heaven; the afterlife are not central to the message of Jesus. The Way is about a path of transformation in this side of death - not heaven. The path is about following Jesus."

 

Exactly. Thanks to both of you for being more articulate than tired, headachy me could manage!

[Snow]

:( Hey, I expect many (most?) of the people here, even if they are using the label "Progressive Christian" don't necessarily identify as Christian in public - I know I don't. I know if I am honest about my beliefs and called myself Christian, all the über-Christians would spend all their free time telling me how I didn't fulfill even one of their critera for what it means to be Christian. I'd say I'm more Christian-leaning, or Christian-ish, but boy, I think that would get their panties even more into a wad...

I think the only thing not allowed on this thread should be "you should believe this because..." "or "you should agree with my belief because..."

 

I have an idea...what if we have a group "not quite a Christian" or a "spiritual" group or something to that effect? That way we all have a place to chat without being put down for not being Christian enough or at all. Honestly, I don't identify as Christian because I don't want to be grouped into "one of those Christians", the exclusive and judgmental ones.

Can we please form a religion where everyone is equal and no one gets excluded. Oh, and we can talk all things spiritual? :p

 

I think many of us on this path (or finding our own path up the mountain) find resonance in some Earth-based religious practices.

 

If you people are moving away from some or all of Christianity, you aren't going to find the answers or info you need from Christians. If that was going to work for you, it would have by now, so to get anywhere, you need someone else to show up.

 

I keep trying to stay away from this saying this but I can't. I am surprised at how many people expressed interest in a "Christianity" thread who are not Christian. I say that very matter of factly, no judgement. But it seems the thread is pointing away from being "Christian" in nature and instead toward just an open and inclusive spirituality. Perhaps it should be renamed the good 'ol "spiritual but not religious" thread, which would be accurate, more inclusive of the pagan, earth based philosophies and not give people the impression that participants believe in the divinity of Jesus like the name Christian infers.

 

I think I finally figured out what's bothering me. I only quoted from this page but there are other examples all throughout this thread that suggest people are not comfortable calling themselves Christians, that they are moving away from traditional Christianity, etc. I posted a suggestion trying to be more INCLUSIVE of a wider variety of ideas represented, which is one thing many of us have expressed a desire for and get reamed as being an example of the reason people don't want to go to church anymore. :( There hasnt been a single philosophy mentioned that i havent believed at one point so its not like I'm the uber-christian traditionalist here.

 

I was in no way trying to draw a line in the sand to say you have to believe that Jesus is god to be a Christian. Clearly, most of you took it that way so apparently I have articulation problems. I do find it comical that in another post here, someone can talk about getting in touch with the ever-present divinity within ourselves and everyone nods amen sister, but then people freak out when I say it might be in Jesus.

 

I think I'm just way too emotional over this thread and should have checked my expectations awhile ago. I just had high hopes I would feel more understood rather than less.

 

Anyway, I'm sorry to the OP and to all of you for any offense and confusion I've caused...truly, I didn't mean it. Blessings to each of you on your paths.

[Rosie_0801]

What is it you need from us Kate? It's 40C here. Make it easy and give us dot points please! :p (Really, it is absolutely stinking hot here.)

 

I'll guess at the first one:

1. You are hurt that people would reject Jesus as a path to the divine.

 

Response:

1. I don't think anyone is rejecting Jesus as a path to the divine. It should be obvious to anyone with eyes that plenty of people not only believe that but experience it.

2. It just as obviously doesn't work for everyone.

3. No one here thinks any the worse of you if Jesus is the path for you.

4. I am not trying to turn this into a thread about paganism. As I said earlier I am here because I hate to see people in spiritual trauma and like to help if I can. Offering Christian advice to people not feeling the love from Christian advice isn't helpful, so I am offering other things that may be of use, and have been of use to some already. I am also here because I had a question which has since been answered.

5. I think your sensitivity on this topic is clouding what you see when you read, and you are certainly not the only one. But *shrug* it is to be expected when discussing important topics outside one's own head.

6. If we don't work through our misunderstandings, the ones within ourselves and the ones with others, we will never solve them.

7. My ex said I was like a terrier with a rat when it comes to problems, that I'd sink my teeth into it and keep biting until it was dead. Not a flattering portrait, but true enough. I can chew on this all week if it'll do you or anyone else any good.

8. If you want to continue this but feel too raw for public conversation, I'm sure pretty much anyone on this thread would be happy to converse privately, whether to resolve issue or help put ideas into words so you can come back and share them here.

[Guest]

What is it you need from us Kate? It's 40C here. Make it easy and give us dot points please! :p (Really, it is absolutely stinking hot here.)

 

I'll guess at the first one:

1. You are hurt that people would reject Jesus as a path to the divine.

 

Response:

1. I don't think anyone is rejecting Jesus as a path to the divine. It should be obvious to anyone with eyes that plenty of people not only believe that but experience it.

2. It just as obviously doesn't work for everyone.

3. No one here thinks any the worse of you if Jesus is the path for you.

4. I am not trying to turn this into a thread about paganism. As I said earlier I am here because I hate to see people in spiritual trauma and like to help if I can. Offering Christian advice to people not feeling the love from Christian advice isn't helpful, so I am offering other things that may be of use, and have been of use to some already. I am also here because I had a question which has since been answered.

5. I think your sensitivity on this topic is clouding what you see when you read, and you are certainly not the only one. But *shrug* it is to be expected when discussing important topics outside one's own head.

6. If we don't work through our misunderstandings, the ones within ourselves and the ones with others, we will never solve them.

7. My ex said I was like a terrier with a rat when it comes to problems, that I'd sink my teeth into it and keep biting until it was dead. Not a flattering portrait, but true enough. I can chew on this all week if it'll do you or anyone else any good.

8. If you want to continue this but feel too raw for public conversation, I'm sure pretty much anyone on this thread would be happy to converse privately, whether to resolve issue or help put ideas into words so you can come back and share them here.

 

 

Rosie, I'm not Kate and I don't speak for her, but I don't think your first point is accurate.

 

I didn't announce a retreat from this thread, but I was planning to make one and let me just bullet-point out why, so it's hopefully nice and clear.

 

* I have in the past put up numerous posts on WTM that speak to my struggles with Christianity. I have wrangled with the point of prayer and why "Jesus is the only way" agitates me and what role the Bible has and why Atonement is "necessary." It's difficult to wrestle with those topics when people of all stripes are commenting and some are horrified by those questions. It was such a relief to see that people like myself were supposedly going to have a social group thread where we wouldn't get those horrified reactions.

 

* People who have no Christian leanings at all began commenting and probing, including you, Rosie, and Margath. I would never want to tell someone they aren't welcome to post in a thread, especially since the whole reason there is "Progressive Christianity" is the unwelcomeness many like myself have felt with people who believe all traditional tenets of the faith. I personally enjoy you, Rosie, and Margath and other non-Christians I know on this board. One boardie PM'd me to talk about how she is raising moral children without religion and that was kind and useful. Having said that, I don't know what point there is in atheists or pagans chiming into this tread to probe the beliefs here. Nobody AFAIK goes over to the Orthodoxy or RC threads and asks why they kiss icons or believe in transubstantiation. It would be absurd because that isn't a place for differently-believing people to come probe.

 

* I find it conspicuous that the variety of people posting has shrunk from the original page and the original pre-post. There are several people who haven't posted here for several pages and the posters who are left are mostly talking about living apart from a Christian community or practicing earth-based religions. Again - I have no beef with people believing those things, but I don't see why those thoughts belong here.

 

* Lastly, I personally felt that a few posters jumped on and misconstrued my beliefs and that is bizarre to me in a "social group" about Progressive Christianity. This should not be a place to debate belief in the benefit of spirituality and God. I am feeling as hurt and misunderstood as I've felt in past threads where I'm "odd man out" for doubting the inerrancy of the Bible or the purpose of Jesus as Atoning sacrifice. Now I feel odd man out for believing that faith and spiritual connection is good and beneficial. I find that bizarre in a thread that should have had the purpose this one was supposedly going to have. (As far as I thought.)

 

Again, I have nothing against differently-believing people. I am very inclusive and want all people to strive for the Divine, meaning for all to experience unconditional love, compassion, empathy, kindness, peace and goodness. I just found that this thread was hurting me much more than helping me and so I had decided that I wasn't going to expose myself any further, which is exactly what has happened to me before because my beliefs were not Christian enough. I am dipping back in because I feel that Natural Kate had similar hopes for this thread and saw it go in a direction she didn't expect.

[elegantlion]

I think we are all looking in different directions, from a posting/life experience. It's hard to create traffic flow when cars are moving in their own direction. It's like the blind men exploring the elephant, we are all seeing something different. While we may all have points of agreement, I think we're all seeing this progressive and christianity differently. This is why it's so hard to discuss. (I'll stop with the metaphors now - it's Monday)

 

Because Jenny started this thread I will defer to her on how she'd like this group to proceed before posting further.

[Onceuponatime]

I think we are all looking in different directions, from a posting/life experience. It's hard to create traffic flow when cars are moving in their own direction. It's like the blind men exploring the elephant, we are all seeing something different. While we may all have points of agreement, I think we're all seeing this progressive and christianity differently. This is why it's so hard to discuss. (I'll stop with the metaphors now - it's Monday)

 

 

 

I agree. This is what I was trying to say in another post.

 

Personally, I've been enjoying most of the thread and have seen the input of "non-Christians" as valuable. I thought this thread was inclusive and am having trouble understanding the need for a different kind of thread. I don't see any contradiction in exploring different kinds of spirituality and calling oneself Christian. Maybe this is my own blindness.

 

Perhaps expectations were too high. Something like this can't really be expected to meet our needs. When we put that kind of burden on someone or something else, it is almost always disappointing.

[Matryoshka]

I think I finally figured out what's bothering me. I only quoted from this page but there are other examples all throughout this thread that suggest people are not comfortable calling themselves Christians, that they are moving away from traditional Christianity, etc.

 

Oh, heck, I was trying to post to make people feel more comfortable and less bothered. :( :grouphug: , Kate.

 

When I (and I think others who have posted on this thread, but I'll speak for myself first) say that I don't feel comfortable calling myself Christian, that is because I feel that the über-Christians (okay, I don't know how else to differentiate them) have coopted the name and decided on a definition that doesn't include me. And then they freak out and go on the warpath if I use it. So I don't. It doesn't mean that I don't see Jesus as a path to the divine. I do. That is why I'm here. I'd actually like to learn more about that, in a nonjudgemental place. I don't think Jesus is literally divine, as in he is himself God incarnate. I think he was a Prophet. I think what he said came from God. I would like to learn more about the Bible and Jesus' message, but in a place where the interpretation is more historical and metaphorical than literal.

 

Mergath said she wanted to do that too, so that's why I think she would still belong here.

 

You said this in your more recent post:

 

I was in no way trying to draw a line in the sand to say you have to believe that Jesus is god to be a Christian.

 

But you said the bolded in a previous post:

 

I keep trying to stay away from this saying this but I can't. I am surprised at how many people expressed interest in a "Christianity" thread who are not Christian. I say that very matter of factly, no judgement. But it seems the thread is pointing away from being "Christian" in nature and instead toward just an open and inclusive spirituality. Perhaps it should be renamed the good 'ol "spiritual but not religious" thread, which would be accurate, more inclusive of the pagan, earth based philosophies and not give people the impression that participants believe in the divinity of Jesus like the name Christian infers.

 

The bolded is what I have the problem with. Although your later post you say you are not saying that, the bolded implies this group shouldn't call itself Christian unless we all believe in the divinity of Jesus. Not that Jesus had good things to say, or was a Prophet or teacher or divinely inspired, but that he was himself divine. I think we should be able to agree to disagree on this point, in a thread titled Progressive Christianity.

 

But it seems the thread is pointing away from being "Christian" in nature and instead toward just an open and inclusive spirituality. Perhaps it should be renamed the good 'ol "spiritual but not religious" thread, which would be accurate, more inclusive of the pagan, earth based philosophies

 

The problem with this, is that most places that embrace this philosophy tend to reject Jesus. Many UU churches are like this. Jenny's experience that she recounts here is exactly what I have seen:

 

As a young adult, I started teaching RE at a UU church. At that point (early 1980s), we didn't have a lot of formal curricular materials available. (Or maybe it was just that my tiny fellowship hadn't invested funds to purchase anything.) So, RE was pretty loose, consisting mostly of whatever the day's teacher felt like teaching. I quickly discovered that Buddha and Mohammed and especially anything about Native American spirituality were welcome topics, but anything specifically Judeo-Christian made people twitchy.

 

I think it's not so much that so many people are in this thread who are not Christian, or at least wanting to move in that direction, but are not comfortable calling themselves Christian because of others' definitions.

 

What Izzy posts below seems to be a very good starting point. If we use this definition, I can call myself Christian without any reservations. I completely agree with all 8 of these points. I also agree with Izzy that this thread has been following these tenets pretty well.

 

I found this regarding Progressive Christianity. I believe this group has been following all 8 tenets. That may make us not Christian enough by some standards but still Progressive Christian. I hope that helps some. http://progressivech...r-2011-version/

 

By calling ourselves progressive Christians, we mean that we are Christians who….

 

1. Believe that following the path and teachings of Jesus can lead to an awareness and experience of the Sacred and the Oneness and Unity of all life;

2. Affirm that the teachings of Jesus provide but one of many ways to experience the Sacredness and Oneness of life, and that we can draw from diverse sources of wisdom in our spiritual journey;

3. Seek community that is inclusive of ALL people, including but not limited to: Conventional Christians and questioning skeptics, Believers and agnostics, Women and men, Those of all sexual orientations and gender identities, Those of all classes and abilities;

4. Know that the way we behave towards one another is the fullest expression of what we believe;

5. Find grace in the search for understanding and believe there is more value in questioning than in absolutes;

6. Strive for peace and justice among all people;

7. Strive to protect and restore the integrity of our Earth; and

8. Commit to a path of life-long learning, compassion, and selfless love.

 

I also agree with what Marcus Borg says below.

 

Marcus Borg, a Christian, says that Jesus was a Jewish mystic or like St. Francis with an exclamation point. Christianity is about "the way." I agree. Marcus Borg, "..the gospel is the way." "The way in Mark and in the New Testament generally is not about how to get to heaven; the afterlife are not central to the message of Jesus. The Way is about a path of transformation in this side of death - not heaven. The path is about following Jesus."

 

To give you an idea of the spirit I'd love to have disucsions here in, I'd like to share my church's covenant:

In the love of Truth, and in the spirit of Jesus, we unite for the worship of God, and the service of All.

[Izzy]

-

[Snow]

Rosie, I think what I want is to stop making myself look at an a$$ online.

 

Thank you to all who responded. Quill, thank you very much for sharing your experience and trying to explain what I can't. Matryoshka and izzy, thank you for such an articulate response. You obviously spent some time and thought. And thank you to onceuponatime and EL as well, wise words.

 

Jenny, I am so sorry to contribute to the downward spiral here. I'll bow out now. Being the perpetual optimist, maybe it's has provided some definition as to the common purpose and direction? Please continue on learning from one another on this path. Really.