Katydid Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 And, if so, what should I use? He's in 3rd grade able to read pretty much anything I put in front of him (though he does mispronounce things sometimes) and can spell really well (no idea what level). He taught himself how to read when he was 4 and I never did any phonics program with him and the only spelling we've done is a bit of studied dictation. I've been looking at Explode the Code for my first grader and thought my 3rd grader might like them, as well. Can you just jump into a higher level and still learn all the basic phonics, or does one book build on the next? IOW, would he have to back all the way up to level 1 to learn all the rules, or is there enough review in the higher levels that he could still pick up the prior rules, but still work on his level? Which level should he start in? Or is ETC not a good fit for a student like DS? Should I just start a phonics-based spelling program? If so, which one? I have the HTTS teacher's manual, but I wasn't sure if he would find the how to spell worksheets boring.... if I were to go that route, which level should he start on? Any other program suggestions? I really need something as independent as possible, as we are already struggling with getting stuff done this year, with a baby and toddler underfoot. So something like AAS would not be a good fit. Also, he is not a fan of writing, but he will write on the white board with minimal complaint. Or should I not worry about phonics and just let the Classical Writing Primers (that we will be starting soon), copywork and dictation be enough? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsBanjoClown Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 I am in the same boat. Ds8 is in 2nd and a lot like yours. We are using Rod and Staff's Spelling by Sound and Structure this year. Ds5 is going to be the same way. We are doing Abeka's 1st grade reading program right now (he's in K), but I have no idea what to use with him next year. He is reading on at least a 2nd grade level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katydid Posted November 2, 2012 Author Share Posted November 2, 2012 I was just looking at R&S. How do you like it? Does it teach the phonics rules? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah CB Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 If he's really reading strongly and he's a natural speller I wouldn't bother. My eldest learned to read with 100 Easy Lessons. That was all the phonics she had. I didn't do spelling with her. When she got older she wanted to compete in spelling bees and that was the first time we actually worked on spelling. She came 3rd in our regionals three years in a row. She really didn't need any spelling instruction. If she didn't know how to spell a word she would ask me how to spell it. Once she spelled it once she didn't need to go over it again. IMO a spelling program would have been a big waste of her time. My boys on the other hand... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 It couldn't hurt to do something like Spalding or one of its spin-offs, just to fill in any knowledge/gaps that might not so intuitive. I wouldn't expect you to have to do it more than a year, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Calvin is a natural reader/speller. He did barely any phonics. He's getting the highest possible marks for English at school. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 I was a natural reader and speller. I taught myself to read at 4 years old and never had a phonics. I did fine for a long time, but then stagnated for decades in my spelling progress. I'm learning phonics as an adult and loving it. It's fun to be making progress again after so many years. I inferred so many things, but there were so many things I didn't infer. If you are overwhelmed, I'd wait till you are going to teach one of the little ones to read and teach them both at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocelotmom Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 My question would be whether he has an intuitive understanding of phonics, or simply a good memory for words and/or ability to figure things out from context? When faced with an unknown long word, what does he do? If he sounds things out and seems to have a good understanding of phonetic rules, I'd let it go. If he doesn't, a phonics program might help. Maybe read through the Progressive Phonics books? That should be quick and easy for a kid who already reads well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
................... Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Yes Yes Yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 My question would be whether he has an intuitive understanding of phonics, or simply a good memory for words and/or ability to figure things out from context? When faced with an unknown long word, what does he do? As a family, we tend to use complex words in speech, so it took a long time for Calvin not to be able to work out words from context. And I read aloud from books that also used advanced vocabulary, so he heard a lot more that way. By the time it became a problem, he was dealing with words that escape from basic phonics rules (mnemosyne, for example) so he just had to use a dictionary or ask me. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katydid Posted November 2, 2012 Author Share Posted November 2, 2012 My question would be whether he has an intuitive understanding of phonics, or simply a good memory for words and/or ability to figure things out from context? When faced with an unknown long word, what does he do? If he sounds things out and seems to have a good understanding of phonetic rules, I'd let it go. If he doesn't, a phonics program might help. Maybe read through the Progressive Phonics books? That should be quick and easy for a kid who already reads well. OK, so I just had him read a random selection of words that I'm pretty sure he's never seen before from my copy of HTTS (including words like incandescent, translucency and subordinated plus many more) and he needed help sounding out many of them. Most of the ones he got wrong were from putting the stress on the wrong syllable and some were from saying the wrong vowel sound. So what do I do with that? :confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katydid Posted November 3, 2012 Author Share Posted November 3, 2012 So now I'm thinking of trying Spelling by Sound and Structure. I like the look of the exercises, the phonics rules and the vocabulary work it includes and I like that he would be able to do most of it on his own. Thoughts? :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 So now I'm thinking of trying Spelling by Sound and Structure. I like the look of the exercises, the phonics rules and the vocabulary work it includes and I like that he would be able to do most of it on his own. Thoughts? :001_smile: They're spelling rules, not phonics rules (at least, 4th grade and up). :-) Except for a few things that make me crazy, given my Spalding training, Spelling by Sound and Structure is my favorite non-Spalding spelling. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonshineLearner Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 It's fun to give your child a reading test. I copied mine after googling it and it tests through jr high, I think. There's just a spot to read, instructions on how to score...etc :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katydid Posted November 3, 2012 Author Share Posted November 3, 2012 They're spelling rules, not phonics rules (at least, 4th grade and up). :-) Except for a few things that make me crazy, given my Spalding training, Spelling by Sound and Structure is my favorite non-Spalding spelling. :-) Oh, see, shows how much I know... :tongue_smilie: do you still think it will help with his ability to successfully sound out bigger words eventually? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetpea3829 Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 DS5 is like this. He just naturally reads and spells well. But we still chose to cover all of the phonics bases, just in case. And I'm glad we did because there are some things that one really doesn't generally know intuitively. For example, he did not intuitively know when to pronounce a g as hard or soft. We are breezing through Progressive Phonics. I went through the Intermediate books to see what I knew he's already mastered and started mid-way (I think it was book 6 or something). He went through Intermediate very quickly and is working through Advanced. Most of it is just formal review for him and he kind of "yeah yeah Mom" but occasionally, we come across something that he doesn't have mastered. I'm also finding AAS2 to be helpful with phonics rules. I personally don't think ETC is going to be helpful for my son...I have the entire set, and I'll have him review phonics areas that I think he needs to review (probably for summer work this coming summer). But for formal instruction? I don't think it's a good match. Mostly, I find DS needs to work on recognizing grammar, fluency, and honestly, focus. He has a much higher reading level than what he's actually reading, mostly because he doesn't have the patience to sit and read books that are at his reading level. Anyways, my vote is to go ahead and review...you can get those phonics rules covered pretty quickly, and then you'll know for sure that he's covered all of his phonics bases. One last thing...I do find that having a good knowledge of the phonics rules can be very helpful with spelling...and vice versa. Another reason, IMO, to cover those phonics bases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 Yes, although I think Spalding/Spalding spin-offs will do it better. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2_girls_mommy Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 I had one that taught herself to read on her own, and got the rules intuitively. I still had her work through 2 yrs of a phonics program in 1st and 2nd grade. We did skip the first unit or two of course, since she was already reading novels by that time :) It only took her 5 min. each morning to work through a lesson. We did R&S phonics, and she could do it almost completely on her own. Like maybe she needed clarification once or twice in 2 years. But it cleared up the whys for her behind what she had internalized w/out really knowing why. I wouldn't have skipped it. She is an excellent, natural speller as well. I have her do R&S sound and structure spelling workbooks, a year ahead now. She complains because the spelling words are too easy. But the review of the spelling rules and the vocabulary work is so good for her. I don't even test her on the spelling words at the end, because I know she will get them correct. So my answer is yes, I still do phonics, and then spelling, w/a natural reader/speller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delaney Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 I am a natural speller and do not remember learning phonics past long and short vowels. As I use PR I am learning just as much as the kids. Younger DD knows how to spell almost anything she comes across so I don't do it for the phonics but just the grammar and Latin prep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori D. Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 (edited) Phonics is primarily used in K-2nd to aid with decoding for reading. Most 3rd graders are beyond the need for it, and it certainly sounds like your DS is beyond the need for phonics. It also sounds like he is a natural speller. Even for a natural speller, I'd suggest a solid spelling program that covers vowel patterns, syllabication rules, and some root word study (which helps you understand why some "ch" words ("chronological, i.e.) have a hard "k" sound -- it is because these word originate from Greek). That way DS has the reason "why" things are spelled the way they are, and you will be able to rest easy that you won't have any "gaps" in the area of spelling. The spelling rules will also address those reading issues of when "g" is pronounced as a "soft" or "hard" sound. Below are some specific ideas for you. BEST of luck, whatever you go with! Warmest regards, Lori D. Spelling Workout is an independent workbook. He would probably start with level C with no problems. It is also arranged to go with the MCP "plaid phonics" if you felt you *really* needed to cover phonics. (They even now have a "bundle" that includes the workbook and a matching reader to practice the phonics.) - Natural Speller (gr. 1-8) -- based on "word families"; would last you several years; pick and choose word lists from the various grade levels to fit your DS's needs - Megawords (gr. 4+) -- although an advanced 3rd grader could use this. Vowel patterns and syllabication rules; 8 books; also good for vocabulary, esp. along about book 3 and above. Or make your own spelling from "The ABCs and All Their Tricks". GREAT resource that I used as the basis for our spelling -- every letter sound and vowel pattern is covered with the explanation of when to use it, with a progressive list of words to pull from to make your own spelling list at your student's level. Edited November 4, 2012 by Lori D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeeterbug Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 (edited) Skip ETC, sounds like he is way beyond it. And I know you said it wouldn't work, but AAS sounds perfect for him. If you are worried about babies/toddlers messing with the board, don't hang it on the wall. We use a smaller whiteboard and store it on top of a bookshelf when not in use. That keeps it out of reach of little ones. My son is a natural reader/speller too and AAS has been perfect to catch the things he misses. He also is happy to write on the whiteboard. :) The only bad part is starting at Level 1 (you really need to start there) will seem way too easy and he will fly through it. ETA: I just re-read your post and realised you don't want AAS because you need something more independent. So I didn't help at all, sorry! AAS is definitely not independent. Edited November 5, 2012 by skeeterbug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katydid Posted November 5, 2012 Author Share Posted November 5, 2012 Thank you all for your thoughts! My first grader is doing AAR, so we already have the board and the letter tiles. When she is a bit further along with her reading, I will probably do AAS with her, so maybe I can just have DS tag along every once in a while. We have a vintage copy of Wheeler's Elementary Speller and I really do like it. The poetry/copywork is top notch and the words are arranged by rules, though they are not specifically taught. I have been using the HTTS manual to teach the rules as they come up in Wheeler's, but because it's not all laid out nice and neat, it hasn't been getting done as often as I would like. I will continue to do that with him, though, at least for a few more weeks, because I don't have any extra curriculum money available right now. How important is it to memorize the rules? Doesn't AAS put a focus on memorizing the rules? I know HTTS does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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