Baseballmom Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 My 13 year old son is currently taking Advanced Math (pre-calculus) by Saxon. He has always been an excellent math student and has never encountered problems understanding math until this year. He does ok on the daily work since he can look back at formulas and rules or I just get him started and a light bulb goes off. But he is having anxiety when I give him the weekly test. He just seems to be having a hard time keeping all of the concepts straight in his head and knowing where to start. I had him make a formula book, hoping that would help, but it doesn't seem to have made a difference at all. Of course, I could just say he is so far ahead and take the year off from math, but I'm afraid he will lose skills that he has worked to obtain for so many years. As a side note he is on schedule to graduate at 16, but I don't care about him graduating early, that's just a goal he has set. And for what it is worth, he wants to be a Marine Biologist, which is not even a math intensive degree program from what I can tell. Here are things I've considered... 1. Have him take two days for each lesson, doing all of the problem set instead of just the odd problems, which he would hate, hate, hate. He is not a fan of "wasting time." 2. Work on SAT math prep, his math scores from last year were 450, but that is because I didn't tell him how the SAT test works, he didn't know the wrong answer gives you negative points. I just wanted to see how well he would do, so I didn't want to worry him with that information. 3. Continue on the set course and just hope things will eventually work out. Even though he is struggling with several concepts, he still has a great grasp on many things that I struggled with in high school. 4. Do a sort of math unit study spending time on concepts that are interesting, like those used in the show Numbers. So what would you do? After responses from general board: I believe he has a great foundation, has never scored below a 90% on a weekly test. Usually around 80% on midterm & final exams, where the average score in his class was 50-60%. But all of sudden this year it is taking him 1 1/2+ hours to complete the odd problems and he has developed test anxiety. Does he just need more time to mature? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1Togo Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 We've had two students work through Saxon Calculus, and they always did all of the problems. One of our students had a bit of trouble with the Advanced Math book. We followed your first option; i.e. split the lesson into two days. If your son is not doing well on the weekly tests, then he hasn't mastered the material. Forging on at the current pace is probably not the best idea. With that said, our student didn't have to work 1/2 lessons for the entire book. Slowing down for a period of time doesn't mean slowing down forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kareni Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 My thoughts: My impulse would be to get an Algebra 2 book from a non-Saxon publisher and have him work through the chapter reviews. Since he has already finished Saxon Algebra 2, if he solidly knows the information he should breeze through this. If his Algebra 2 skills are not solid, this would enable him to target his weak areas. If he cannot pass a chapter review, I would suggest he go back and work through those parts of the chapter that are problematic. After he has gone through this process and re-solidified his Algebra 2 skills, he will (hopefully) find it easier to progress through his Advanced Math book. Regards, Kareni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baseballmom Posted October 30, 2012 Author Share Posted October 30, 2012 My thoughts: My impulse would be to get an Algebra 2 book from a non-Saxon publisher and have him work through the chapter reviews. Since he has already finished Saxon Algebra 2, if he solidly knows the information he should breeze through this. If his Algebra 2 skills are not solid, this would enable him to target his weak areas. If he cannot pass a chapter review, I would suggest he go back and work through those parts of the chapter that are problematic. After he has gone through this process and re-solidified his Algebra 2 skills, he will (hopefully) find it easier to progress through his Advanced Math book. Regards, Kareni That seems logical. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baseballmom Posted October 30, 2012 Author Share Posted October 30, 2012 We've had two students work through Saxon Calculus, and they always did all of the problems. One of our students had a bit of trouble with the Advanced Math book. We followed your first option; i.e. split the lesson into two days. If your son is not doing well on the weekly tests, then he hasn't mastered the material. Forging on at the current pace is probably not the best idea. With that said, our student didn't have to work 1/2 lessons for the entire book. Slowing down for a period of time doesn't mean slowing down forever. You are right, we may not need to slow down forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elfgivas Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 :grouphug: and sometimes it just is a maturity issue, too. our second dd, now 26, redid grade 8 math completely the summer between grade 8 and grade 9. she "got" it the second time thru, and never looked back. hth, ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baseballmom Posted October 30, 2012 Author Share Posted October 30, 2012 :grouphug: and sometimes it just is a maturity issue, too. our second dd, now 26, redid grade 8 math completely the summer between grade 8 and grade 9. she "got" it the second time thru, and never looked back. hth, ann Yes, my oldest son took algebra 1 twice. He said it was so much easier the second time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowbeltmom Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 My 13 year old son is currently taking Advanced Math (pre-calculus) by Saxon. Here are things I've considered... 1. Have him take two days for each lesson, doing all of the problem set instead of just the odd problems, which he would hate, hate, hate. He is not a fan of "wasting time." My kids used Saxon for a few months when we first started homeschooling. The Saxon program expects the kids to complete every problem in the problem set. I would not recommend just completing the odd problems. 2. Work on SAT math prep, his math scores from last year were 450, but that is because I didn't tell him how the SAT test works, he didn't know the wrong answer gives you negative points. I just wanted to see how well he would do, so I didn't want to worry him with that information. The math on the SAT tests middle school level geometry and Alg. I and Alg. II concepts. Imo, a score of 450 would indicate to me that many of the concepts are not completely understood yet - which is fine as your son has plenty of time. So what would you do? I would take a break from the Saxon Advanced Math program and go back and review prior topics using a resource other than Saxon. The online program Aleks may be one option for your son to try. You may be able to get a free trial to Aleks so your son could try it out and see if it works for him. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 The math on the SAT tests middle school level geometry and Alg. I and Alg. II concepts. Imo, a score of 450 would indicate to me that many of the concepts are not completely understood yet - which is fine as your son has plenty of time. I would also find a 450 on the SAT concerning for a student who took it while taking alg 2 (that is the equivalent of when it would normally be taken by the avg high school student) That is a low score and is not representative of what advanced students would normally score even if testing at 12-13 (unless the score is representative of mis-bubbling vs. mistakes--taking a practice test at home should answer that question) I would be concerned that he has mastered replicating equations but does not really understand what he is doing and isn't confident in knowing the whys behind the processes. :iagree: w/the suggestions of spending time reviewing material. It sounds like he needs to spend time solidifying concepts before advancing any further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Given the info in all your posts: I would speculate that he's been very good at guessing at what the Saxon book is asking, and matching the pattern to that he has learned, but has not really understood *why* he is doing what he is doing. I think that is why he is struggling to keep all of the formulas straight in his head, because he has not understood why the formulas are the way they are. I would suggest that he is possibly one of the students Jann mentioned, for whom Saxon just doesn't work so well. I would second Kareni's suggestion. I would get a reasonably priced Algebra II text (Lial's intermediate is usually found cheaply on amazon, for older editions) and have him work through in a diagnostic-prescriptive manner. In other words, I would have him take the chapter test and go back and re-study anything he missed. I would not have him continue in the day school, as it does not seem to be working out for him. Frankly I think continuing and hoping it will all work out will just convince him that he's stupid at math, and I would hate to see this happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nscribe Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 I wonder, when he did Alg2, did he also do only half the problems in each lesson? Saxon really was not designed that way. Working with my daughter in Algebra 2, I see the value in each of the problems, they really are specifically designed to build on almost discovering a nuance of each concept. Algebra 2 is pretty dense with Geometry elements and the first part of Advanced Math extends them. As I have looked at the Advanced Math text, I noticed it doesn't have the big review of the previous year characteristic in Alg. 1 and Alg. 2. Buried in what might seem at a glance to be review are new concepts pretty much from about the 5th lesson, the pace is just much faster. If he did skip half the problems in Alg. 2, I might go back and for a couple of weeks just have him do a test a day from it. This would take at most a month. As he does, you may see a pattern emerge in types of problems he misses. He may only miss one or two problems, but if they are consistently the ones on a key concept that could hinder him. Say for example he didn't have his grip firmly on the Pythagorean Theorem, it may well really make for a struggle although he may only miss one problem a test until late in Alg. 2 or into Advanced Math. As others have said, it never hurts to buy an inexpensive older edition of a Geometry, Trig and/or Pre-Calculus book and have it around to play with. The Kahn videos can be great too. One other thing, if Dd misses a specific type of problem for two or three lessons, I look to see if they are on the same concept. Unfortunately, Advanced Math doesn't have the reference number next to each problem (at least in our 2nd Edition), thus I already know I will have to do a bit more legwork. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brenda in MA Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 My thoughts: My impulse would be to get an Algebra 2 book from a non-Saxon publisher and have him work through the chapter reviews. Since he has already finished Saxon Algebra 2, if he solidly knows the information he should breeze through this. If his Algebra 2 skills are not solid, this would enable him to target his weak areas. If he cannot pass a chapter review, I would suggest he go back and work through those parts of the chapter that are problematic. After he has gone through this process and re-solidified his Algebra 2 skills, he will (hopefully) find it easier to progress through his Advanced Math book. Regards, Kareni :iagree: My son had similar problems with Advanced Math. He was older at the time, though (15 yo). We switched to Chalkdust, and that was a much better fit. However, this son has gone on to engineering college and done well in the math courses there, but he still complains that he doesn't feel solid with his algebra skills sometimes. I would definitely get a non-Saxon book and see if he can do the Algebra 2 problems there. I found my son's problems by having him use Aleks. I would also find a 450 on the SAT concerning for a student who took it while taking alg 2 (that is the equivalent of when it would normally be taken by the avg high school student) That is a low score and is not representative of what advanced students would normally score even if testing at 12-13 (unless the score is representative of mis-bubbling vs. mistakes--taking a practice test at home should answer that question). I would be concerned that he has mastered replicating equations but does not really understand what he is doing and isn't confident in knowing the whys behind the processes. :iagree: That low of an SAT math score for a kid who was taking Algebra 2 would also concern me. The sooner you diagnose the problem(s) and take corrective action, the better. At least you've found that there might be a problem when your son is only 13 yo, so you still have time to change course. Best wishes, Brenda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jann in TX Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 My first impression is that he is 13. He will naturally slow down a bit at this age. Just because you are advanced does not mean you STAY advanced--there is a limit and eventually your peers will catch up...(meaning some kids his same age who are currently levels below him will eventually meet up with him). Mental maturity plays a HUGE role in academic readiness. At age 13, your son is going through lots of hormonal changes-- these WILL slow down thought processes and attention to detail. The majority of young math students are advanced because they are good at patterning. Patterning most likely got your son through Saxon Algebra 2 working only half of the problems. In Advanced Math students must rely on knowing relationships and how basic Algebra works to solve more complex problems... not so much patterning... His Low SAT score should also be a warning that something is not working. Continuing with Advanced Math or any other Pre-Calc at this point would not help that low score. I suggest what a previous poster suggested. Go back to an Algebra 2 text and work through that level again. If anything this will help your son tremendously in Calculus and above (where majority of errors are due to weak Algebra skills). The change in program styles will help isolate the problem areas and fill in any conceptual gaps. Let him progress at his own pace-- but work on MASTERY-- he must correct ALL errors. Don't rush him through this review-- he is in no hurry--even if he were to graduate at age 16. After a solid review of Algebra 2 you can choose to return to Advanced Math (my least favorite Saxon level) or move to a more traditional text. Either way your son will have a better experience the second time around. HTH Jann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Bay Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 My first impression is that he is 13. He will naturally slow down a bit at this age. Just because you are advanced does not mean you STAY advanced--there is a limit and eventually your peers will catch up...(meaning some kids his same age who are currently levels below him will eventually meet up with him). Mental maturity plays a HUGE role in academic readiness. At age 13, your son is going through lots of hormonal changes-- these WILL slow down thought processes and attention to detail. The majority of young math students are advanced because they are good at patterning. Patterning most likely got your son through Saxon Algebra 2 working only half of the problems. In Advanced Math students must rely on knowing relationships and how basic Algebra works to solve more complex problems... not so much patterning... His Low SAT score should also be a warning that something is not working. Continuing with Advanced Math or any other Pre-Calc at this point would not help that low score. I suggest what a previous poster suggested. Go back to an Algebra 2 text and work through that level again. If anything this will help your son tremendously in Calculus and above (where majority of errors are due to weak Algebra skills). The change in program styles will help isolate the problem areas and fill in any conceptual gaps. Let him progress at his own pace-- but work on MASTERY-- he must correct ALL errors. Don't rush him through this review-- he is in no hurry--even if he were to graduate at age 16. After a solid review of Algebra 2 you can choose to return to Advanced Math (my least favorite Saxon level) or move to a more traditional text. Either way your son will have a better experience the second time around. HTH Jann Yes, do Algebra 2 again. Personally, I'd do it again with a different program as that's what I did with Algebra 1. Calculus is a whole different ball game, and very, very, very few dc will do this by 16. Someone here (was it Jann???) once pointed out that only 10 percent of dc are ready for Calculus by their senior year at 17. It stands to reason that the numbers get much smaller as you go down in age. You need an excellent grasp of Algebra 1 & 2, Trig & anything else in PreCalc in order to do Calculus. My dd, who was also very far ahead, slowed down due to laziness, and then I had her do Algebra 1 twice even though she had a 90 percent average in it the first time through, so she didn't do Geometry until her Freshman year, but honestly is having to work hard at math now that she's in AP Calc at 17. She actually has to study, and it's been a great eye opener for her (glad it happened before college, which she did NOT want to go to early.) She is doing well because she was very grounded in math first at home (I listened to math gurus here, including Jann in TX & Jane in NC, among others) and then went into a strong program at ps (not our ideal choice, but best for our family). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teachin'Mine Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 My 13 year old son is currently taking Advanced Math (pre-calculus) by Saxon. He has always been an excellent math student and has never encountered problems understanding math until this year. He does ok on the daily work since he can look back at formulas and rules or I just get him started and a light bulb goes off. But he is having anxiety when I give him the weekly test. He just seems to be having a hard time keeping all of the concepts straight in his head and knowing where to start. I had him make a formula book, hoping that would help, but it doesn't seem to have made a difference at all. Of course, I could just say he is so far ahead and take the year off from math, but I'm afraid he will lose skills that he has worked to obtain for so many years. As a side note he is on schedule to graduate at 16, but I don't care about him graduating early, that's just a goal he has set. And for what it is worth, he wants to be a Marine Biologist, which is not even a math intensive degree program from what I can tell. Here are things I've considered... 1. Have him take two days for each lesson, doing all of the problem set instead of just the odd problems, which he would hate, hate, hate. He is not a fan of "wasting time." It's never a waste of time to do ALL the problems in Saxon. As has been mentioned, it's in the problem sets that concepts are expanded upon, and if you happen to skip that one problem, you won't get that new concept. The lessons shouldn't take three hours, so I would go back, maybe even to algebra 1, and let him test out of what he knows, and when gets getting things wrong, or doesn't remember what to do, I'd start there. I'd have him do all the problems and then let him re-do any he gets wrong. IMO the correcting of the missed problems is where a lot of the learning and cementing of concepts takes place. 2. Work on SAT math prep, his math scores from last year were 450, but that is because I didn't tell him how the SAT test works, he didn't know the wrong answer gives you negative points. I just wanted to see how well he would do, so I didn't want to worry him with that information. I wouldn't work specifically on SAT test prep yet. IMO his score indicates that he hasn't learned the material and doing harder questions like those on the SAT would probably just stress him more and not help give him a feeling of accomplishment. Once he's well into algebra 2 and doing well, then I'd let him work on those problems on the side. 3. Continue on the set course and just hope things will eventually work out. Even though he is struggling with several concepts, he still has a great grasp on many things that I struggled with in high school. IMO this would not be a good idea. Higher math builds on earlier concepts and mastery is critical to doing well. 4. Do a sort of math unit study spending time on concepts that are interesting, like those used in the show Numbers. If he loves math, then definitely let him do whatever extra fun stuff interests him. But the basic math, with doing all of the problems, will probably take a good chunk of time. So what would you do? After responses from general board: I believe he has a great foundation, has never scored below a 90% on a weekly test. Usually around 80% on midterm & final exams, where the average score in his class was 50-60%. But all of sudden this year it is taking him 1 1/2+ hours to complete the odd problems and he has developed test anxiety. Does he just need more time to mature? IMO if the class average is 50-60%, then the teacher is doing something wrong - unless most of the students aren't doing the work assigned. If the teacher is assigning only half the problems, then I'd drop the class, or at the least, let my student know that all the problems are required. Thirteen is a difficult age. Reviewing and solidfying the concepts is the way I would probably go. If he likes the way Saxon teaches, I wouldn't change now. If after going back and doing all 30 problems he's still not getting it, then I'd look for a different program. The Advanced Math text is challenging. It doesn't pay to rush to get to that point, or to rush through it either. I hope you find whatever works best for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 I would also find a 450 on the SAT concerning for a student who took it while taking alg 2 (that is the equivalent of when it would normally be taken by the avg high school student) That is a low score and is not representative of what advanced students would normally score even if testing at 12-13 (unless the score is representative of mis-bubbling vs. mistakes--taking a practice test at home should answer that question) I would be concerned that he has mastered replicating equations but does not really understand what he is doing and isn't confident in knowing the whys behind the processes. :iagree: w/the suggestions of spending time reviewing material. It sounds like he needs to spend time solidifying concepts before advancing any further. :iagree: I would be heading back to see what he missed. It is very likely that he was memorizing math rather than understanding it. The latter is VERY important for higher level math classes. MANY students are good at memorizing rather than understanding math. It tends to show up when they take "mixed" problem tests (like the SAT/ACT) or get to higher level classes. The good news is you have plenty of time to fill in gaps. Pressing on without doing so would be the worst choice IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Bay Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 . MANY students are good at memorizing rather than understanding math. It tends to show up when they take "mixed" problem tests (like the SAT/ACT) or get to higher level classes. . :iagree: This is why doing Algebra 2 second time can really help because it can allow them more time to understand what they were doing. My eldest really started to understand the theory behind math doing Alg 1 the second time. An excellent book for understanding the theory is Algebra by Gelfand. Several of us here have a public domain solution guide for it if you need it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom31257 Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 I agree with Jann that he should retake Algebra 2 using a different text. Saxon is my least favorite publisher, so I would also recommend using a different Advanced Math when you get back to it. If you use Saxon, don't let him skip problems. He'll miss quite a bit of the program if he does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deniseibase Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 If you DO want to stick with Saxon, you might look at the newer 4th edition texts for a change of pace that includes more conceptual thinking. The solutions manuals for these are unfortunately sometimes wrong, so you or another adult in the house needs to be comfortable enough with math to help sometimes. But we are using these are our house and I'm very pleased with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candid Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 I agree with the idea to switch publishers, I'd consider, because of his age, going back to geometry instead of just algebra 2. Since the two are different, I'd go back to it as the new beginning. I'd look at a bunch of programs and I'd really consider a more discovery and less rote oriented program than Saxon. Maybe weave two programs together if you think pure discovery would be too much for him. On the other hand if you go back to geometry then you can push him more and try something like AoPS to see how he handles it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lotr Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 I like the Gelfand Algebra as well. It is a wonderful book. Storm Bay, is there a way you can share the solution to me? I am new to this forum and apparently I do not have enough posts to PM you. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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