If my kid needs a quiet environment to learn (sorry, this got long)

[SKL]

You remember my kid - the one who lost her mind about a month ago, after starting 1st grade. I posted a lot for a week or so.

 

After I made some changes, I haven't heard any more behavior complaints, but I still see her having trouble keeping up in class.

 

I've printed out her Singapore math chapter and we spent about an hour a day going over it last week. I observed some of the issues she has. She is extremely easy to distract and then she loses her place. It seems her short-term memory is poor compared to her overall intelligence. And/or she has a disconnect between words and numbers. She seems to avoid looking at the worksheet (or other visual/tactile math materials) and I have to constantly redirect her attention to it. Last night she was in tears over the following math exercise, which I went over with her line by line for about 15-20 minutes:

 

"Simone has some tomatoes.

She throws away 5 rotten ones.

She has 4 tomatoes left.

How many did she have at first?

 

__-5=4 is the related subtraction fact.

 

Simone had ___ tomatoes at first."

 

When we grab some manipulatives to help work on a problem, she forgets what the question was. Having paintakingly figured it out with manipulatives, we switch back to the original problem and she has no memory of what she just did with manipulatives. :confused: Sometimes it seems she doesn't know what it means to "think." However, she does fine when there are numbers but no words. For example, flash cards, a page of simple written equations, or being asked orally "what's 7-2?"

 

We get through this with lots of patience on both our parts, and overall things are fairly smooth when it's quiet and one-on-one. But I can't imagine how she can manage this in the classroom environment.

 

Another thing I've noticed is that she may know something solidly but still have trouble reflecting this in written work. She either gets overwhelmed by the print on the page, or doesn't connect the text with the concept, at least not within the allotted time. (Her reading ability is average, so it should be neither a help nor a hindrance.)

 

However, when we work on something at home before she has to perform in school - if I know EXACTLY what the task will be (e.g., spelling test), then she does well.

 

Even if the teacher is open to accommodating her, I don't know what she could do with a classroom full of other kids. What should I ask for? Or should I just plan on teaching her math at home until . . . until what? Is this something kids grow out of, and if so, by when?

 

Advice?

[SKL]

I dont think your expectations sound realistic.

 

?-5=4 is not an easy concept for many 6 yr olds/ first graders. Its algebraic thinking.

 

Is singapore what the kids are using at school?

 

Yes, this is their regular school math work. (ETA: It's from Singapore 1A.)

 

I too thought it was a bit much for the age, but the teacher said most of the class is getting it.

Edited October 20, 2012 by SKL

[SKL]

For those who use manipulatives, do you do it at the same time as the paperwork or at a separate time?

 

If she doesn't seem to be making the connection with the manipulatives, does that mean she doesn't need them (i.e., they are a waste of time), or she needs them even more?

[JenniferLynn]

My DD6 is in the beginning of Singapore 2A, with the re-grouping. In the beginning for each concept, and when we review after not practicing for a few days, I have to prompt her to write things down while using the manipulatives. She loses track of the ultimate question during the manipulative re-grouping, but it helps to incorporate the manipulative with the text question/equation every step of the way. For the tomato question above, we would put the manipulatives on the paper, next to the related sentence.

 

After doing this a few times, she gets it and can either work with the manipulatives and answer the original question or skip the manipulatives and do it faster in her head.

 

Good luck!

[kiwik]

My son is doing sums like that in our equivalent of K. If he is not paying attention he tends to add or subtract the 2 numbers he can see. Can she do it without the verbal clutter. If so when I was at university I used to highlight the bits that were actually relevant. Tomatoes, rotten, the person's name etc make no difference to the maths.

[Carol in Cal.]

Maybe teach her to do hatch marks? That way even if she doesn't have manipulatives in class, she will be able to keep track of what she is figuring out.

 

I agree with the suggestion of scaffolding at home as well. Then help her bridge to the problems that she is doing in class.

 

Have you considered pre-teaching the material? It's easy to get ahold of Singapore curricula. That might mean the difference between her missing things in class or being able to work through the lessons.

 

That is a tough age attention-wise. I think that the wisdom of John Taylor Gatto saying that he would do ANYTHING to prevent kids from starting school before the third grade is really evident in the large, noisy classrooms that are prevalent now. At least when I was kid the classrooms were quiet and the teacher insisted on attention. It was still hard, but it was doable.

 

I considered a private school for my daughter when I was looking at kindergartens. I loved everything about it except when the science teacher told me, "The class is always at about this noise level" in a very noisy period. The thing is, I know my kid. She was the type that would not have been excited to talk about the science they were doing. She would have been utterly impervious to the science because the noise and freedom would have gotten her so hyped up. And she would never have learned anything like that.

[2squared]

"Simone has some tomatoes.

She throws away 5 rotten ones.

She has 4 tomatoes left.

How many did she have at first?

 

__-5=4 is the related subtraction fact.

 

Simone had ___ tomatoes at first."

 

RightStart teaches adding up before subtracting. Would that be easier? If she was adding up for this problem, the required fact becomes

 

5 + 4 = ?

[SKL]

The thing is, I know my kid. She was the type that would not have been excited to talk about the science they were doing. She would have been utterly impervious to the science because the noise and freedom would have gotten her so hyped up. And she would never have learned anything like that.

 

Yeah, I hear you. I remember when I was vetting daycares when this dd was 2.5. I checked out the Montessori, and I knew that my dd would have been sitting crouched in a corner for the first couple of months with all that "activity." I'm sure it's great for some kids, but not this one. I put her in a much quieter place with small classrooms, where she also did KG with only 8 classmates. It didn't occur to me that at age 5-6 she'd still be incompatible with a typical classroom environment. Not that we have any "quiet" options at this point.

 

I like the ideas of providing much simpler examples for those long verbal exercises. I did draw pictures, but even then it didn't click without a lot of guidance. (I showed the math test to my friend from India and even she thought it was hard. The computations are easy, but the way they pose the questions is so round-about.)

 

My goal is to pre-teach math until it seems to be clicking a lot faster for her. I spent this past week getting caught up and now we're a little ahead, so let's see how it goes next week.

Edited October 21, 2012 by SKL

[SKL]

RightStart teaches adding up before subtracting. Would that be easier? If she was adding up for this problem, the required fact becomes

 

5 + 4 = ?

 

Yes, that's what we ended up doing, but my concern is that she won't know what to do when presented with this kind of question in class.

 

If I tell her the solution is to simply add the numbers given, she'll do that when she sees the next question: "Joe had 9 pies, ate some and then had 7 left. How many did he eat?"

[2squared]

Yes, that's what we ended up doing, but my concern is that she won't know what to do when presented with this kind of question in class.

 

If I tell her the solution is to simply add the numbers given, she'll do that when she sees the next question: "Joe had 9 pies, ate some and then had 7 left. How many did he eat?"

 

I think you have to do it in conjunction with manipulatives.....or....the Singapore bar diagrams. I just read an entire thread about people who don't like the diagrams, but we have found the diagrams immensely helpful. They are consistent in that you approach each problem the same way and you approach it in chunks.

[Uff Da!]

nm

[Rivka]

Am I remembering correctly that this child started school early? Or is that your other child? The problems you are talking about sound like cognitive immaturity.

[SKL]

Am I remembering correctly that this child started school early? Or is that your other child? The problems you are talking about sound like cognitive immaturity.

 

My younger dd started a few months "young" (and she is doing very well). This older dd's birthday is within 10 days of the cutoff. Though she's not an academic rockstar, she was above average in KG, and starting her after her younger sister was not an option in my opinion.

 

Today I saw her teacher's note on her report card. It says her potential is a lot higher than her performance, but she needs to try harder and focus better. I think she's trying as hard as anyone, but she struggles with the focus part of things. I was glad to see that the teacher does not think she's incapable.

 

Last week we were going over her health unit for test prep. She would register the information as read to her and provide it orally in response to review questions. However, it was practically impossible to get her to look at the page in the book while listening. When she did "look," she would flip the pages ahead and get silly. On the other hand, when her task is to sit down and read a book, she does just fine. Her reading comprehension is well above average. Somewhere along the way, there's a block between different kinds of thinking.

 

This morning I gave her a few "word problems" orally. She did fine with most of them. But one threw her for a loop. "We went to lunch and I spent $7 there. After that I had $3 in my pocket. How much did I have before we went to lunch?" No idea what to do with that. Sigh.

[Nart]

This morning I gave her a few "word problems" orally. She did fine with most of them. But one threw her for a loop. "We went to lunch and I spent $7 there. After that I had $3 in my pocket. How much did I have before we went to lunch?" No idea what to do with that. Sigh.

 

I think part of it is the wording. My son would make comments about what about the tip, or what else did you buy and let his imagination run wild so the answer didn't seem obvious. I think part of learning to do word problems is not assuming other things happened. My son did better when I phrased the question.

 

I had some money before I went to lunch but I can't remember how much money I had. The only thing I spent money on was lunch. I spent 7 dollars at lunch and now I have only 3 dollars. How much did I have ALL TOGETHER before I paid for lunch?

 

Then he gets 7 + 3= 10. Then I prompt him to make it into a subtraction problem. ? - 7 = 3 and show me with C-rods. Repeat, repeat, repeat with different scenarios, then I drop the phrase ALL TOGETHER . Finally he can do it without adding and can write the subtraction problem with the missing number.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Nart

[Rivka]

Am I remembering correctly that this child started school early? Or is that your other child? The problems you are talking about sound like cognitive immaturity.

 

My younger dd started a few months "young" (and she is doing very well). This older dd's birthday is within 10 days of the cutoff. Though she's not an academic rockstar, she was above average in KG, and starting her after her younger sister was not an option in my opinion.

 

Today I saw her teacher's note on her report card. It says her potential is a lot higher than her performance, but she needs to try harder and focus better. I think she's trying as hard as anyone, but she struggles with the focus part of things. I was glad to see that the teacher does not think she's incapable.

 

I'm not trying to cast aspersions on her intelligence. These behaviors sound like things my daughter did in kindergarten - she was very bright, but had poor focus/work habits and poor ability to tolerate problems that needed extra work. She grew out of it, and hopefully your daughter will too.

[mathnerd]

We had the same problem as you for this same concept (singapore 1a). I took a break from using the curriculum for a couple of days and taught this concept using an incremental approach until DS could get it.

My approach was like this:

You have one m&m now and you ate one already. How many did you have before you ate any?

Then, you have 2 m&ms now and you ate 1 already. How many did you have before you ate any of them?

Then, you have 2 m&ms now and you ate 2 already. How many did you have before you ate any of them?

I progressively increased the complexity and let him deduce the answers and reach the correct conclusion by himself. I also put a bowl of m&ms in fornt of him and let him play act each scenario.

Also, I let him work out the relationship between (9-4=5) and (4+5=9).

Once he got it, then he could easily do the same thing for 2 digit numbers.

So, the issue is that the wording is hard to comprehend and the concept chokes the brain if it is not broken down into baby steps.

[MomatHWTK]

For the Singapore problem, yes use the bar method to teach the concept and work the problems.

 

In general, verbal/auditory issues, language issues, processing issues, ADHD... the list is long as to what could be causing a disconnect between raw "intelligence" and performance. It may just be a mental maturity thing. I tried some of the Singapore materials with my middle two and got blank stares. ;)

 

I've not had any of my kids evaluated that young b/c we homeschool and I tend to just make the accomodations. Plus, I really didn't know about all the possible issues until my oldest was evaluated about a year ago. But if my others were in public or private school and I was seeing real problems early on, I'd probably get the evaluations just to have an idea of what accomodations if any were needed.

[mommyshannon]

My daughter's used Singapore in public school as well for kinder and first. One daughter struggled the other did well. Things got better when we started home schooling using math u see. If you have child who is easily distracted math u see works the best to teach concepts. If homeschooling is not an option. Testing will help you and your daughter get the help she needs.