Looking for advice on Singapore IP vs. regular workbook

[skueppers]

My daughter is just finishing Beast Academy 3A, and we have decided to give Singapore a try after this -- she has fond memories of doing the Singapore Math IP 1A book the summer before last.

 

She has previously used Math Mammoth, and that worked pretty well for her.

 

The reason we are not continuing with Beast Academy is because she gets overwhelmed by how hard some of the problems are, and has trouble calming down enough to determine that she actually does know how to solve it. I think she would do better for now with something else, so I was planning to go back to Math Mammoth when she asked about doing Singapore. I'm OK with letting her have input on this.

 

I am thinking of getting the U.S. Edition Textbook and the Intensive Practice and Challenging Word Problems books. I feel as though the types of problems in the regular workbook would bore her.

 

I know this is something others here do -- should I rethink this? Would it be better if we did use the regular workbook instead of the Intensive Practice book?

 

She did fine on the placement test for Singapore 2A, so I'm planning to have her start in 2B, since that looks like material she doesn't already know inside out and backwards.

[rokaie]

I think the SM textbook has so many problems that the workbook becames a little useless. We regularly use textbook, MPAH enrichment book and something from IP, CWP, we have also the workbook and we use it only for those topics my DS doesn't grasps immediatly, or if there's a procedure he has to learn by memory.

[Staceyshoe]

I'm not sure. If some of the BA problems are overwhelming, I suspect that some of the IP problems would be as well. (I can't solve some of them at the 3rd grade level.:confused:) If someone is doing one "extra" book, I think CWP is very important. We use the regular workbook but skip over things that would just be boring and pointless review. I'm inclined to recommend tweaking the workbook to fit your child and then adding CWP.

[Dmmetler]

I had all four. If she had no trouble with the text, we skipped to the IP challenge problems, and CWP IF needed. If text was a little more challenging, we'd do the IP regular problems first. (Once we switched to NSPM for the text/Workbook, it also turned into "If the concept is IN the IP"-which was only a concern for a couple of things, because I was using the regular SM IP/CWP).

 

If she really, really needed re-teaching on a concept, the workbook came out. Or, in some cases, we'd put it aside and come back later (time and money in about 2A/2B both simply required setting it aside and coming back). There were two cases, once we moved to NSPM, where we actually didn't get all four workbooks (I was buying from international sellers on Ebay, and I think in many cases they were simply going to a local store, buying the books, and reselling them to me. Given that there were four identical except for a number on the cover workbooks for a grade, I'm not all that surprised that twice I ended up getting two copies of the same workbook instead of one each of four), and I never had trouble making do without that workbook-if I absolutely needed some extra problems for DD, I'd go to a review section in the NEXT workbook and pull problems from there.

 

 

 

By 4A/B and 5A/B there were some sections where we went straight to the challenge problems, because she had the concept. The "Soft Spiral" was really starting to become apparent, and it also was starting to become apparent that for some kids, Spirals are just plain annoying. She was also starting to run into a lot of redundancy.

 

 

I think that some of the BA starred problems beat IP in the sort of brain gymnastics required. Of course, that could be because in both cases there have been problems that my child can solve without real struggles, while I'm sitting there going "Huh????" and have trouble solving without using mathematical tools that I learned in high school and college. If your DD is generally OK with BA, she'll probably be fine mostly skipping the workbook and using text/IP.

[Esse Quam Videri]

I think it's worth it to get both and see which she responds to better. We don't use CWP because I've read a lot of reviews that they are similar in difficulty to the workbook. We use a combination of the text/work/IP, and IP is definitely more challenging in parts.

 

Also, there are times I teach from the workbook rather and skip the textbook, and then do IP for practice and review.

[Spy Car]

People use the materials in different ways. For us the Textbook is when I teach and interact with my child and the materials, making sure he understands the lessons and can explain to me what he is doing, or if there are areas of misunderstanding that they are resolved. It is not "independent work," it is interactive learning.

 

The Workbooks, in contrast, are the opportunity to show independent work.

 

Then the IPs are the brain-stretch.

 

Bill

[Esse Quam Videri]

Also, if you are looking to sell your BA, I'd love to buy it, even if the workbook is filled out some.

[chepyl]

I teach from the text, but we don't do the problems in the text often. He works through the workbook and I assist as needed. We do the IP and CWP between books. When we finish 3a in a couple of weeks, we will spend the rest of the fall semester working through IP and CWP problems.

 

The IP book lists so many problems and the page is full of text, I don't think it is a good first round of problems for my child. He likes the workbook pages with a few problems in pictures. After he gets the new concepts the lists of problems in The IP are not as overwhelming.

[skueppers]

I have realized that there is an important factor I neglected to mention.

 

My child refuses to skip problems. So if we use the regular workbook, she'll wind up doing *every single problem*, no matter how mind-numbing.

 

Because of this, I need to find a single, core workbook for her to do all of. This is why I was leaning toward the Intensive Practice book.

 

Regarding Beast Academy, she did manage to get all the way to the last few pages of 3A (and she will be finishing it next week). She is definitely capable of doing Beast Academy. It's just that Beast Academy's method doesn't seem to be the most optimal for her right now, because she spends too much time getting herself in emotional knots.

[alisoncooks]

People use the materials in different ways. For us the Textbook is when I teach and interact with my child and the materials, making sure he understands the lessons and can explain to me what he is doing, or if there are areas of misunderstanding that they are resolved. It is not "independent work," it is interactive learning.

 

The Workbooks, in contrast, are the opportunity to show independent work.

 

Then the IPs are the brain-stretch.

 

Bill

This is how we use SM, pretty spot-on. (Except we do not use IP, we do CWP for extra....)

[NittanyJen]

::::waving::: Hi Sonja :)

 

I think you should give the IP book instead of workbook a try in your situation. The problems start out easily enough, which should give her a confidence boost, and then lead up to the more difficult problems for a challenge.

 

The IP book problems are also far more interesting than the workbook problems. For my 9YO, I find I more and more often am skimming over the workbook and going to the IP book, particularly as we get up into more levels-- currently 4B. We are into the decimals chapter, and he is looking at it and saying, "Well . . . since I've already done money, haven't I already done decimals???" Yes, son, you have. Off to the IP book we go.

 

We don't have the want-to-do-every-problem issue. If we had that to deal with while doing the workbook as well as IP, we'd never finish a section. We also use the US Edition, and you know who his Daddy is :) We like it just fine :). You can always get the workbook later if you feel something is lacking, yes?

 

I vote for give it a shot. The text has additional problems and reviews already . . .I doubt you will be lacking for problems, and there is always Khan Academy.

[Crimson Wife]

It's just that Beast Academy's method doesn't seem to be the most optimal for her right now, because she spends too much time getting herself in emotional knots.

 

Frankly, I think if your DD has a meltdown over the harder problems in BA, then she will not do well with IP either. Some of the IP problems are really difficult, even in the lower levels.

[skueppers]

Frankly, I think if your DD has a meltdown over the harder problems in BA, then she will not do well with IP either. Some of the IP problems are really difficult, even in the lower levels.

 

I'm not actually trying to keep her from being confronted with difficult problems. I'm just hoping that Singapore will provide her with a better lead-in to those problems.

 

My feeling is that Beast Academy expects the child to, for example, figure out multiplication in the process of solving problems about area. Which is undoubtedly great for some kids.

 

Whereas the recollection I have of Singapore Math is that the basic concepts are taught and practiced before problems that apply those ideas are introduced.

[Spy Car]

I'm not actually trying to keep her from being confronted with difficult problems. I'm just hoping that Singapore will provide her with a better lead-in to those problems.

 

My feeling is that Beast Academy expects the child to, for example, figure out multiplication in the process of solving problems about area. Which is undoubtedly great for some kids.

 

Whereas the recollection I have of Singapore Math is that the basic concepts are taught and practiced before problems that apply those ideas are introduced.

 

I think Singapore is much better in the terms you desire. It sequentially builds both the mental/mathematical skills and the procedural skills. BA has it's strengths (and I love it for what it brings to the table) but—in the limited release thus far—BA is great at adding depth and interest, but may be a little questionable at developing the nuts and bolts as sequential skills. That is where Singapore shines.

 

Sometimes one needs to work outside the box, but other times it is important to work creatively inside the box.

 

Bill

[Crimson Wife]

I'm not actually trying to keep her from being confronted with difficult problems. I'm just hoping that Singapore will provide her with a better lead-in to those problems.

 

My feeling is that Beast Academy expects the child to, for example, figure out multiplication in the process of solving problems about area. Which is undoubtedly great for some kids.

 

Whereas the recollection I have of Singapore Math is that the basic concepts are taught and practiced before problems that apply those ideas are introduced.

 

If you really want a step-by-step-by-step approach with no conceptual leaps, then it's Math Mammoth I would recommend. Singapore unfortunately *DOES* contain some conceptual leaps. My DD does not do well with these and I learned to supplement with MM before taking my DD through those chapters (IIRC there were two in 3A, one in 3B, two in 4A, and one in 5A where I had to do this).

 

I haven't seen enough of BA yet to make a comparison (we have the sample chapter on area & perimeter and I have ordered 3A/B through our charter school).

[Spy Car]

If you really want a step-by-step-by-step approach with no conceptual leaps, then it's Math Mammoth I would recommend. Singapore unfortunately *DOES* contain some conceptual leaps. My DD does not do well with these and I learned to supplement with MM before taking my DD through those chapters (IIRC there were two in 3A, one in 3B, two in 4A, and one in 5A where I had to do this).

 

I'm still not seeing the conceptual leaps you keep harping on. IMO the strong suite of Primary Mathematics is how sequentially the skill building takes place, without the material being spoon-fed. If it were more incremental my child would be bored.

 

Bill

[boscopup]

I'm still not seeing the conceptual leaps you keep harping on. IMO the strong suite of Primary Mathematics is how sequentially the skill building takes place, without the material being spoon-fed. If it were more incremental my child would be bored.

 

Bill

 

Math Mammoth IS more incremental than Singapore. That's one of the reasons we switched to Singapore. It was a good move. I was having to skip a lot in MM. Singapore has taught everything thoroughly enough for us without it giving every teeny tiny incremental step.

[Spy Car]

Math Mammoth IS more incremental than Singapore. That's one of the reasons we switched to Singapore. It was a good move. I was having to skip a lot in MM. Singapore has taught everything thoroughly enough for us without it giving every teeny tiny incremental step.

 

Primary Mathematics pretty well hits the sweet-spot for us as a "nuts and bolts" math program. If anything I might wish it was more challenging, but the IPs help in that regard as do programs like BA.

 

It is also good to have more incremental options for those who need them. But the idea that Singapore has huge conceptual leaps is not in keeping with our experience. I think it is sequential and skill-builds in a very logical and methodical fashion without being stupefying.

 

Bill

[Jennay]

I now use the Textbook and the IP books. I decided not to use the CWP - I found that the word problems in 3A were about the level of CWP 2 and my dc (so far) haven't needed the repitition. I use LOF for variety/supplementation.

[Crimson Wife]

I'm still not seeing the conceptual leaps you keep harping on. IMO the strong suite of Primary Mathematics is how sequentially the skill building takes place, without the material being spoon-fed. If it were more incremental my child would be bored.

 

Bill

 

My DS is much more "mathy" than my DD, and he is able to intuitively understand math concepts without needing a lot of step-by-step-by-step instruction. I don't foresee him needing to use much of MM, if any. If you've got a kid who can make those leaps, then you're not going to notice those leaps the way I do with a kid who needs the more incremental approach. It all goes back to the whole learning styles issue. My DS is a "gestalt" learner while my DD is a sequential learner.

[justLisa]

Math Mammoth IS more incremental than Singapore. That's one of the reasons we switched to Singapore. It was a good move. I was having to skip a lot in MM. Singapore has taught everything thoroughly enough for us without it giving every teeny tiny incremental step.

 

 

I sort of use both. Now and then we hit a topic that just needs to be broken down further and MM does that.

[Spy Car]

My DS is much more "mathy" than my DD, and he is able to intuitively understand math concepts without needing a lot of step-by-step-by-step instruction. I don't foresee him needing to use much of MM, if any. If you've got a kid who can make those leaps, then you're not going to notice those leaps the way I do with a kid who needs the more incremental approach. It all goes back to the whole learning styles issue. My DS is a "gestalt" learner while my DD is a sequential learner.

 

But you also skip an essential part of the sequence (which is independent use of the Primary Mathematics Workbooks with a child you say needs an incremental approach). That is a huge missing component IMO. One could dismiss the need to use this fundamental element of the core *if* the progression was clear without it, I suppose, but to by-pass a critical and integral part of the program, and then to repeatedly criticize the program (which you are not using as intended) for having "conceptual leaps" does not strike me a a fair or valid criticism.

 

I'm sure some children may need a more incremental approach than offered in Primary Mathematics and it is great there are other options. But I think you are unfairly damming the reputation of a very fine math program that excels in sequential skill building.

 

Bill

[Crimson Wife]

But you also skip an essential part of the sequence (which is independent use of the Primary Mathematics Workbooks with a child you say needs an incremental approach). That is a huge missing component IMO. One could dismiss the need to use this fundamental element of the core *if* the progression was clear without it, I suppose, but to by-pass a critical and integral part of the program, and then to repeatedly criticize the program (which you are not using as intended) for having "conceptual leaps" does not strike me a a fair or valid criticism.

 

I'm sure some children may need a more incremental approach than offered in Primary Mathematics and it is great there are other options. But I think you are unfairly damming the reputation of a very fine math program that excels in sequential skill building.

 

Bill

 

But the workbook does not have any extra explanations or teaching, just more practice problems. The issue for my DD was not the number of practice problems but rather that Singapore jumps from point A to point D without first taking the child through points B & C. Adding more practice problems to point A will not make it any easier for the child to make the conceptual leap to point D. Only the more step-by-step-by-step explanations in something like Math Mammoth will do that.

[Spy Car]

But the workbook does not have any extra explanations or teaching, just more practice problems. The issue for my DD was not the number of practice problems but rather that Singapore jumps from point A to point D without first taking the child through points B & C. Adding more practice problems to point A will not make it any easier for the child to make the conceptual leap to point D. Only the more step-by-step-by-step explanations in something like Math Mammoth will do that.

 

I simply disagree. Having children tease through the workbooks independently after being actively taught lessons in the Textbook is a fundamental part of the pedagogy with Primary Mathematics. Not doing this work cuts out a very major component of the program. To do that, and then criticize the program for being insufficiently incremental does not strike me as fair in the slightest.

 

I know no program will be perfect for every child (or child/parent combination) but in my estimation the steady and methodical progression in Primary Mathematics—when used as intended—is the program's strongest feature. I just can not imagine cutting out a vital component (unless I were dealing with a freakishly gifted math intuitive) in the first place, much less complaining when that approach proved to have limitations. With your way half of the "core" is left undone.

 

Bill

[NittanyJen]

I agree with Bill on this aspect... in places, the workbook is not mere drill, but the problems build sequentially from point A to point B, where the earlier problems teach methods for the more difficult problems. This is why I do still buy the workbooks, even if we use mostly the IP books; if he gets stuck, he can backtrack and walk on up the ladder. Halfway through 4B I still have not seen any conceptual leaps... If anything, it feels like stuff is explained half to death.

 

Really, the problem sequence instruction is very AoPS-like, with very few if any leaps at all if you really pay attention to what they are showing you. This is likely why RR has recommended Singapore in the past.

 

But back to how all this applies to Sonja and her situation... Given the level of math her daughter is doing and at what age, it does not sound to me as if DD needs a program that spoon feeds each micro step. I suspect Sonja is also quite capable of providing mathematical background help as needed. I think given the implied mathematical ability from the description, the text + IP book is a very reasonable way to go. You can always backtrack to the workbook if needed.

[skueppers]

Thank you all. This discussion has been extremely helpful.

 

The only reason I'm not going back to Math Mammoth, which worked well for my child, is because I don't think this issue is so important as to require me to insist on Math Mammoth when she wants to try Singapore. And, frankly, since she is ahead of grade level in math, I'm not terribly concerned that we might "waste time" doing Singapore and need to go back to Math Mammoth in the end. I care more about whether she has a positive experience in math and is adequately intellectually challenged.

 

I'm going to buy the textbook, workbook, and IP books. I'll see how that goes, and adjust from there.

[melmichigan]

Thank you all. This discussion has been extremely helpful.

 

The only reason I'm not going back to Math Mammoth, which worked well for my child, is because I don't think this issue is so important as to require me to insist on Math Mammoth when she wants to try Singapore. And, frankly, since she is ahead of grade level in math, I'm not terribly concerned that we might "waste time" doing Singapore and need to go back to Math Mammoth in the end. I care more about whether she has a positive experience in math and is adequately intellectually challenged.

I'm going to buy the textbook, workbook, and IP books. I'll see how that goes, and adjust from there.

 

For the personality you are mentioning it might be good to use the workbook and just pull out some of the IP when you want to. I used to write them on the white board or scan a page for DS to work on. Now his tutor just send him select pages to do for homework in addition to his workbook, just not every page.