LDS Moms ~ It's that time of year again!

[Xuzi]

Who am I? And What am I doing here? By John Hay.

 

You can view the offending and disturbing while almost entertaining pages on Amazon. I almost wanted to make my girls blue, knee length skirts in a twisted sense of humor after reading it. My DH thought they might be traumatized by our laughing though!

 

I wanted to hug the poor imaginary girl in the book. She is sooooo messed up. The whole family lives in fear of being excommunicated at any moment. You'll laugh at the family living in a huge house while the father works a blue collar job in UT! In SLC too! Maybe its a family owned property being passed down for generations? I'm still wondering why a church official is staying with them vs. a church owned hotel. I did like how the oldest son is saving for a mission as his parents can't afford to send him. All the doctrine is really messed up! I've read my fair share of anti literature, but this is unique in how complementary it seems.

That doesn't seem very complimentary. :001_huh::lol:

[Veritaserum]

Who am I? And What am I doing here? By John Hay.

 

You can view the offending and disturbing while almost entertaining pages on Amazon. I almost wanted to make my girls blue, knee length skirts in a twisted sense of humor after reading it. My DH thought they might be traumatized by our laughing though!

 

I wanted to hug the poor imaginary girl in the book. She is sooooo messed up. The whole family lives in fear of being excommunicated at any moment. You'll laugh at the family living in a huge house while the father works a blue collar job in UT! In SLC too! Maybe its a family owned property being passed down for generations? I'm still wondering why a church official is staying with them vs. a church owned hotel. I did like how the oldest son is saving for a mission as his parents can't afford to send him. All the doctrine is really messed up! I've read my fair share of anti literature, but this is unique in how complementary it seems.

 

Yeah, I'm reading it now. :confused::confused::confused: Fact check anyone? A simple chat with a Mormon would have cleared up those errors!

[Lab1]

That doesn't seem very complimentary. :001_huh::lol:

 

It's not, but it feels that way. The writing style is unique and seems so sincere! You almost want to believe anything it says. It seems like its putting a religion in a positive light from a familiar perspective of a child living the religion. It's honestly quite scary and easy to see how someone with less knowledge of LDS doctrine and lifestyle would buy it hook, line and sinker!

[Lab1]

Yeah, I'm reading it now. :confused::confused::confused: Fact check anyone? A simple chat with a Mormon would have cleared up those errors!

 

We were wondering how it got past an editor! I want to tell them to watch a Mormon ad on utube! Would have cleared up a bit!

[Veritaserum]

We were wondering how it got past an editor! I want to tell them to watch a Mormon ad on utube! Would have cleared up a bit!

 

I can kind of see how some of the conclusions were made, but they are still very wrong. I wouldn't be able to trust the accuracy of anything else in that book--especially when it comes to other religions!

[LittleIzumi]

Do all of you lovely ladies use secular curricula for school? I have tried and tried to love the christian curriculum out there. But I don't. I have seen a few LDS homeschool links in the past, but I noticed non of you use it.

 

Oh and I thought you would all :lol: if i told you that my coffee maker broke. yes, thats right, NO COFFEE tomorrow. The world is ending....

 

I use secular. The LDS church does not have an official position on the age of the earth, but all the (three) LDS curricula I've seen are young earth and I am so very not a yoing earth believer myself. (If I find out I'm wrong after I die, oh well--it's not important to my salvation how old the earth is, but I can't teach what I don't believe.) I use secular for school and we discuss how God relates to what we learn on our own. Isn't it amazing how God designed our intricate human bodies? We also memorize a scripture a week in circle time, sing songs that are often church songs, and read scriptures or scripture stories every evening. Oh, I forgot--I do use MFW K when they are four. It's extremely non-denominational and gentle with great literature and science and phonics.

 

Good luck tomorrow!!! Maybe try chocolate as a substitute. ;)

Edited October 11, 2012 by LittleIzumi

[Forget-Me-Not]

It's not, but it feels that way. The writing style is unique and seems so sincere! You almost want to believe anything it says. It seems like its putting a religion in a positive light from a familiar perspective of a child living the religion. It's honestly quite scary and easy to see how someone with less knowledge of LDS doctrine and lifestyle would buy it hook, line and sinker!

 

I often wonder if the Amish and Mennonite communities would feel the same about all those books by Beverly Lewis and company :tongue_smilie:

[Lab1]

I can kind of see how some of the conclusions were made, but they are still very wrong. I wouldn't be able to trust the accuracy of anything else in that book--especially when it comes to other religions!

 

My thoughts exactly! I want my children to learn about other religions, but this source isn't trustworthy! I can catch and correct differences in Christian views, but Asian and Middle Eastern descent religions are out of my comfort zone to teach. I wouldn't know if it was true or not! Is hate to unwittingly teach my kids something false!

 

Anyone know of a true book of other religions without a religious slant toward one denomination or group? The above book by John Hay I believe is non denominational Christian, but is too biased to even get correct information!

[LittleIzumi]

My thoughts exactly! I want my children to learn about other religions, but this source isn't trustworthy! I can catch and correct differences in Christian views, but Asian and Middle Eastern descent religions are out of my comfort zone to teach. I wouldn't know if it was true or not! Is hate to unwittingly teach my kids something false!

 

Anyone know of a true book of other religions without a religious slant toward one denomination or group? The above book by John Hay I believe is non denominational Christian, but is too biased to even get correct information!

 

Maybe an Usborne or DK encyclopedia of religions?

[Lab1]

Maybe an Usborne or DK encyclopedia of religions?

 

Thanks! I'll look into them! I want the religions to be presented in a truthful and positive light. It's my job as a parent to point out differences and direct conversation until my kids have a solid grasp of doctrine. I want them to see the truth in other religions and the good people that believe in them! There is so much religious intolerance in the world already!

[Lab1]

I use secular. The LDS church does not have an official position on the age of the earth, but all the (three) LDS curricula I've seen are young earth and I am so very not a yoing earth believer myself. (If I find out I'm wrong after I die, oh well--it's not important to my salvation how old the earth is, but I can't teach what I don't believe.) I use secular for school and we discuss how God relates to what we learn on our own. Isn't it amazing how God designed our intricate human bodies? We also memorize a scripture a week in circle time, sing songs that are often church songs, and read scriptures or scripture stories every evening. Oh, I forgot--I do use MFW K when they are four. It's extremely non-denominational and gentle with great literature and science and phonics.

 

Good luck tomorrow!!! Maybe try chocolate as a substitute. ;)

 

I haven't looked into LDS curriculum, but I'd be very put out about it teaching YE! The Christian curriculum I'm using gives an option and it gives me the opportunity to discuss YE vs. OE. I'm personally in-between! I apply LDS doctrine of the creation to YE a bit. I explain to my kids the different views so they understand. I kinda feel like its the current Christian fad for lack of a better word.

 

I'm glad to hear a positive view of mfw k! I've been thinking of using it with my boys, but only know other Christian denomination families that have used it and loved it. I haven't seen it in person yet.

[LittleIzumi]

Thanks! I'll look into them! I want the religions to be presented in a truthful and positive light. It's my job as a parent to point out differences and direct conversation until my kids have a solid grasp of doctrine. I want them to see the truth in other religions and the good people that believe in them! There is so much religious intolerance in the world already!

 

BYU's "People" book is great for general diversity, but it doesn't go into details. It's more of everyone around the world has different noses, plays different games, wears different clothes, eats different food, etc, without any dominant type.

[LittleIzumi]

I haven't looked into LDS curriculum, but I'd be very put out about it teaching YE! The Christian curriculum I'm using gives an option and it gives me the opportunity to discuss YE vs. OE. I'm personally in-between! I apply LDS doctrine of the creation to YE a bit. I explain to my kids the different views so they understand. I kinda feel like its the current Christian fad for lack of a better word.

 

I'm glad to hear a positive view of mfw k! I've been thinking of using it with my boys, but only know other Christian denomination families that have used it and loved it. I haven't seen it in person yet.

 

If you're close enough you can look through mine.

[Lab1]

"I like being weird. Weird's all I've got. That and my sweet style." ~ Maurice Moss, The IT Crowd.

 

I totally want to watch The IT Crowd again every time I see your posts! It's such a bizarre show!

[Lab1]

If you're close enough you can look through mine.

 

You are in Orem right? That's not too far for me. I've been thinking of making a trip to the Fabric Mill soon. I love how many colors they carry in tricot. We'll all wear our mama made wool socks too!

[LittleIzumi]

You are in Orem right? That's not too far for me. I've been thinking of making a trip to the Fabric Mill soon. I love how many colors they carry in tricot. We'll all wear our mama made wool socks too!

 

Yup, Orem! I've already sucked meggie here into browsing and then buying some of what I use, lol. :lol: (Not buying from me.)

[Lab1]

Yup, Orem! I've already sucked meggie here into browsing and then buying some of what I use, lol. :lol: (Not buying from me.)

 

Sounds good! I'll PM you later. My best friend lives in Orem and we haven't been to her place in forever. We might make an afternoon of it!

[welovetoread]

I am using Calvert with my 3rd and 5th graders this year. So far its been a good fit. My 9th grader is doing a virtual high school.

[Veritaserum]

"I like being weird. Weird's all I've got. That and my sweet style." ~ Maurice Moss, The IT Crowd.

 

I totally want to watch The IT Crowd again every time I see your posts! It's such a bizarre show!

 

:) I love that show. Dh and I quote it to each other all the time. :tongue_smilie:

[garddwr]

Who am I? And What am I doing here? By John Hay.

 

You can view the offending and disturbing while almost entertaining pages on Amazon. I almost wanted to make my girls blue, knee length skirts in a twisted sense of humor after reading it. My DH thought they might be traumatized by our laughing though!

 

I wanted to hug the poor imaginary girl in the book. She is sooooo messed up. The whole family lives in fear of being excommunicated at any moment. You'll laugh at the family living in a huge house while the father works a blue collar job in UT! In SLC too! Maybe its a family owned property being passed down for generations? I'm still wondering why a church official is staying with them vs. a church owned hotel. I did like how the oldest son is saving for a mission as his parents can't afford to send him. All the doctrine is really messed up! I've read my fair share of anti literature, but this is unique in how complementary it seems.

 

Ya know, after reading the excerpt I'm thinking I must be a Really Bad Mormon--I mean, I've never sewn a single skirt for my daughters, I wear sweat pants most days, I don't follow lessons carefully outlined by my husband to teach my children, my kids have been known to show up at church without shoes (woops! I guess the bishop must not have noticed, or he forgot to call us in to excommunicate us:tongue_smilie:) and I seem to have completely missed out on the "race to earn exaltation by doing everything right and especially not letting a church leader see you mess up" principle--maybe I slept through that Sunday School lesson???

 

I agree it was disturbing--all those oh-so-cheerfully presented half truths and twisted interpretations. Seems the author wouldn't have a chance of recognizing a real Mormon or real Mormon doctrine if it walked up and greeted him:seeya:

[welovetoread]

Exactly what you just outlined are the misconceptions I had about the LDS church. Even when I was looking at the LDS church 13 years ago.

[Maus]

Who am I? And What am I doing here? By John Hay.

 

You can view the offending and disturbing while almost entertaining pages on Amazon. I almost wanted to make my girls blue, knee length skirts in a twisted sense of humor after reading it. My DH thought they might be traumatized by our laughing though!

 

I wanted to hug the poor imaginary girl in the book. She is sooooo messed up. The whole family lives in fear of being excommunicated at any moment. You'll laugh at the family living in a huge house while the father works a blue collar job in UT! In SLC too! Maybe its a family owned property being passed down for generations? I'm still wondering why a church official is staying with them vs. a church owned hotel. I did like how the oldest son is saving for a mission as his parents can't afford to send him. All the doctrine is really messed up! I've read my fair share of anti literature, but this is unique in how complementary it seems.

Oh, my goodness! I read what was available on Amazon from that chapter last night! Oh my, goodness! Seriously? What have they done to the other religions they attempt to introduce? Are they equally bad?

 

I grew up Mormon in Utah County (well, since just before I turned 8.) I didn't recognize anything from Ellie's story, except the names of the Church organizations (Priesthood, Relief Socity, Young Womens, Sunday School). Ok, well, we DID only have one car, until I was about 14, but my dad was in a car pool, so we only did without it twice a week.

 

(Just for the record, in case someone is reading this from another "culture", *I* wore jeans and T-shirts to school, as did almost all of my friends. Until High School. It was the 80's, so we wore "pegged" jeans and polo shirts. Two at a time. With the collars turned up. We thought we were sooo cool!

 

Except for the ones who were also in my ward -- part of my assigned congregation --, I really didn't know which of my classmates were members or not, until 9th grade, when the ones who weren't didn't go to Seminary. Every girl I knew from an active Mormon family was college bound. Education is/was heavily emphasized for girls.

 

While most of our grandmothers sewed, only a few of our mothers did. I hardly know anyone from my generation who sews. A few of us know how, but material/patterns/notions usually total way more than the Walmart price for the same item, so we can't afford it. Most of us who do sew use our skills for Halloween costumes and the like, where it might actually be cheaper to make it, and it will last through more than one night. My husband sews. He made his biker scout costume when he was a member of the 501st garrison, and now he sews performance costumes for his Barbershop Quartet.

 

As wrong as the authors got the culture, it's better than what they've done to the doctrine!)

[garddwr]

Exactly what you just outlined are the misconceptions I had about the LDS church. Even when I was looking at the LDS church 13 years ago.

 

Unfortunately there are people out there spreading these misconceptions--many of them innocently because it's just what they have been taught. I've more than once had the very odd experience of trying to explain my beliefs to someone who insists that no, I really don't believe what I am telling them, I really believe xyz that their pastor told them or they read in a book. Um, seems I would know what I do and don't believe...:001_huh:

 

Thing is, there are legitimate doctrinal differences between LDS beliefs and those of other denominations--exactly what the differences are of course depends on the denomination in question. I think it is entirely reasonable for someone to point out those differences and why they believe y and not x. I don't expect everyone to agree with or adopt LDS beliefs--but I don't think it is unreasonable to expect and accurate presentation.

[welovetoread]

Is spearly morning seminary classes required for high school boys and girls? Or is it different from seminary? Is this only in utah or everywhere there is a LSS ward?

[garddwr]

Is early morning seminary classes required for high school boys and girls? Or is it different from seminary? Is this only in utah or everywhere there is a LDS ward?

 

Seminary is a program of scripture study for high school students, both boys and girls. It is not required but is encouraged. There are several forms: in areas such as Utah and Idaho with large LDS populations, seminary is often available as a release-time class where students are able to check out of school for one class period to attend seminary. In many places it is available as an early morning class, often at the church or at someone's house. Where neither of these is available there is the option of home study seminary, where a student does most of the work on their own but may meet with a teacher and class once a week (this is what I did when we lived overseas--we met at the church early Sunday morning). I have heard there is now an online option as well, but don't know any details.

 

eta: fixed typos in the original quote for clarity. Hope you don't mind--I make typing errors all the time but hate to see them replicated when people quote me

[Xuzi]

Is spearly morning seminary classes required for high school boys and girls? Or is it different from seminary? Is this only in utah or everywhere there is a LSS ward?

 

Early morning seminary (or release-time seminary as it is in LDS-dense areas, where they can take the class during the school day) is an optional class for all teens of HS age. It's free, and you can even earn BYU credit (although you have to let your teacher know ahead of time, because there's paperwork to fill out for that). There's no church discipline of your kid decides they don't want to go. They won't be barred from serving a mission or anything like that.

 

I don't know what a typical Christian "Seminary" looks like, but the LDS version is essentially a daily Sunday School class. They rotate through the Standard Works of the Church (Bible, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and the Doctrine and Covenants) on a 4 year schedule, spending 1 year studying just the Old Testament (with the Pearl of Great Price included, since it takes place during the lives of Abraham and Moses, and is a very small book), 1 year studying the New Testament, 1 year studying the Book of Mormon, and 1 year studying the Doctrine and Covenants (which is comprised of revelations given to Joseph Smith and other Prophets of the modern Church). It's meant to help them gain a firm understanding of the Gospel (along with all they've been learning from their parents, personal study, and regular church attendance), which will help them grow to be better adults, better missionaries, better servants in the Church, etc.

[welovetoread]

Could use a few prayers this afternoon. Having one of those days where there are too many tempers flaring, to much procrastination and too many dreams of sending them all off to school. Not sure why God thought it was a good idea to bless me with 6 children AND homeschool them....:confused:

[Xuzi]

Could use a few prayers this afternoon. Having one of those days where there are too many tempers flaring, to much procrastination and too many dreams of sending them all off to school. Not sure why God thought it was a good idea to bless me with 6 children AND homeschool them....:confused:

 

:grouphug::grouphug:

[Lab1]

Thing is, there are legitimate doctrinal differences between LDS beliefs and those of other denominations--exactly what the differences are of course depends on the denomination in question. I think it is entirely reasonable for someone to point out those differences and why they believe y and not x. I don't expect everyone to agree with or adopt LDS beliefs--but I don't think it is unreasonable to expect and accurate presentation.

 

Exactly! There are differences, so cut to the point and tell them. Spouting nonsense doesn't help anyone and causes well meaning parents to lie to their kids!

 

The culture presented is laughable and the doctrine absurd. Why do they lie when the truth is more interesting? Talk about the Godhead vs. Trinity. That's a big one! It upset me when it said we believe everyone is going to Hell and implied we keep our kids in line. with threats of Hell. We don't believe in a fire and brimstone Christian Hell. Just putting that out there for understanding for lurkers. We believe that everyone will be saved in the end. It's one of the reasons we do temple work!

 

The culture presented is funny. For such devout people, they are really messed up. My Bishop has shown up to my house unannounced to drop off a certificate. I was grateful I wasnt in my jammies! My house was trashed! It looked like a toy store after a hurricane. I didn't have the decency to apologize! Unannounced visits will see my house in its natural state!

 

The mother sewing had me in fits. I actually do sew the bulk of my kids clothes! It is very unusual. My girls finally filled out enough that I bought their first jeans last yr. I made their jeans before then! They were too thin and all pants looked sloppy on them. I still make my own jeans. I make all my kids tops and Sunday clothes. Not a single blue knee length skirt in their closet! I won't sew from American patterns either. Nothing says "my mom made my clothes" better then a Simplicity pattern! Their wardrobes get a lot of positive attention at church. It is true that you can't sew for Walmart prices, but I don't sew for that level of comparison.

[Lab1]

Could use a few prayers this afternoon. Having one of those days where there are too many tempers flaring, to much procrastination and too many dreams of sending them all off to school. Not sure why God thought it was a good idea to bless me with 6 children AND homeschool them....:confused:

 

Big hugs mama! I have thought of running away from home way more often then I ever did as a kid!!

[MamaSheep]

I got knocked down by a bad migraine and the after-effects of the meds (mostly just grogginess that leaves me slogging through fog for a day or so; much better than the pain, but not very conducive to clear thinking). So now I'm trying to catch up. You guys have been busy!

 

I think the real reason they didn't make the ages the same is because there is resistance among the more...conservative leaders to have outright equality. As a woman in the church and a feminist, I notice things like this and wish the policies were more egalitarian. Overall I was pleased by the change in policy. It just would have been better if the age requirements were equal. :)

 

 

Interesting. I tend to think it has more to do with keeping women from feeling railroaded into an "equal" obligation with the men. If it's true that reducing the age for men to 18 is intended to reduce their chances of wandering off in other directions and thereby becoming distracted from that which is their sacred duty, then it is probably also true that keeping the age for women at 19 is intended to maintain for the women the freedom that is their right as God's daughters. It is the duty of men to serve as missionaries. It is the right of women to prayerfully choose how best to use their time at that stage of their lives, preparing for a career, preparing for motherhood, working to save money for future need, whatever she and the Lord decide between them. And should she choose to assist the men in fulfilling their duty by serving a mission, that is a gift, not an obligation. It's something the woman maintains the power to grant, not something that men have the power to demand of her. As a woman in the church, and a feminist, I very much appreciate the respect and freedom extended to women in the church, and the power we have over our own lives--even beyond that given to the men. It would make me sad to see that freedom and power diminished in order to make them more identical to men.

 

The conference was very thought provoking even for non-LDS members.

 

I have to admit as I"m reading the Book, I hear my Protestant ways warning about false prophets and already forcasting my descent into hell :tongue_smilie:

 

There's definitely a legitimate place for warnings about false prophets. One thing to consider, in addition to what the others have already said is this. If there were to never be any legitimate prophets again, ever, then why would Jesus not have told us this? Instead of saying, "Anyone professing to be a prophet is a liar because the days of prophets are over and there will never be another," he said, in essence, "Here's how to tell the true prophets from the false ones..." and talked about their "fruits" and so forth. Why would we need to know how to distinguish true prophets from false prophets unless there were going to be some true prophets we would need to be able to recognize?

 

Do all of you lovely ladies use secular curricula for school? I have tried and tried to love the christian curriculum out there. But I don't. I have seen a few LDS homeschool links in the past, but I noticed non of you use it.

 

I use secular materials for the same reasons others here have said. I have not found LDS-specific materials I thought were both accurate and usable.

 

Oh and I thought you would all :lol: if i told you that my coffee maker broke. yes, thats right, NO COFFEE tomorrow. The world is ending....

 

You're kidding me! Interesting timing. :lol:

[MamaSheep]

Who am I? And What am I doing here? By John Hay.

 

You can view the offending and disturbing while almost entertaining pages on Amazon. I almost wanted to make my girls blue, knee length skirts in a twisted sense of humor after reading it. My DH thought they might be traumatized by our laughing though!

 

I wanted to hug the poor imaginary girl in the book. She is sooooo messed up. The whole family lives in fear of being excommunicated at any moment. You'll laugh at the family living in a huge house while the father works a blue collar job in UT! In SLC too! Maybe its a family owned property being passed down for generations? I'm still wondering why a church official is staying with them vs. a church owned hotel. I did like how the oldest son is saving for a mission as his parents can't afford to send him. All the doctrine is really messed up! I've read my fair share of anti literature, but this is unique in how complementary it seems.

 

Good grief! Just enough truth to make the nonsense sound plausible. Yuck!

[MamaSheep]

Exactly! There are differences, so cut to the point and tell them. Spouting nonsense doesn't help anyone and causes well meaning parents to lie to their kids!

 

The culture presented is laughable and the doctrine absurd. Why do they lie when the truth is more interesting? Talk about the Godhead vs. Trinity. That's a big one! It upset me when it said we believe everyone is going to Hell and implied we keep our kids in line. with threats of Hell. We don't believe in a fire and brimstone Christian Hell. Just putting that out there for understanding for lurkers. We believe that everyone will be saved in the end. It's one of the reasons we do temple work!

 

The culture presented is funny. For such devout people, they are really messed up. My Bishop has shown up to my house unannounced to drop off a certificate. I was grateful I wasnt in my jammies! My house was trashed! It looked like a toy store after a hurricane. I didn't have the decency to apologize! Unannounced visits will see my house in its natural state!

 

The mother sewing had me in fits. I actually do sew the bulk of my kids clothes! It is very unusual. My girls finally filled out enough that I bought their first jeans last yr. I made their jeans before then! They were too thin and all pants looked sloppy on them. I still make my own jeans. I make all my kids tops and Sunday clothes. Not a single blue knee length skirt in their closet! I won't sew from American patterns either. Nothing says "my mom made my clothes" better then a Simplicity pattern! Their wardrobes get a lot of positive attention at church. It is true that you can't sew for Walmart prices, but I don't sew for that level of comparison.

 

Just to clarify the bolded, we believe everyone will have the OPPORTUNITY to be saved, which is one of the reasons we do temple work.

 

Although our beliefs regarding hell do differ somewhat from the stereotypical "Christian" hell, we actually do believe in hell, in at least two senses, though we often use terms like "spirit prison" and "outer darkness" instead of just plain "hell" in order to differentiate. This quote is from an officially church-approved Bible Dictionary as part of the entry on "Hell":

 

 

 

"In latter-day revelation hell is spoken of in at least two senses. One is the temporary abode in the spirit world of those who were disobedient in this mortal life. It is between death and the resurrection, and persons who receive the telestial glory will abide there until the last resurrection (D&C 76:84–85, 106), at which time they will go to the telestial glory. In this sense the Book of Mormon speaks of spiritual death as hell (2 Ne. 9:10–12). Hell, as thus defined, will have an end, when all the captive spirits have paid the price of their sins and enter into a degree of glory after their resurrection. Statements about an everlasting hell (Hel. 6:28; Moro. 8:13) must be interpreted in their proper context in the light of D&C 19:4–12, which defines eternal and endless punishment.

 

 

 

On the other hand, the devil and his angels, including the sons of perdition, are assigned to a place spoken of as a lake of fire—a figure of eternal anguish. This condition is sometimes called hell in the scriptures (2 Pet. 2:4; D&C 29:38; 88:113). This kind of hell, which is after the resurrection and judgment, is exclusively for the devil and his angels, and is not the same as that consisting only of the period between death and resurrection. The one group are redeemed from hell and inherit some degree of glory. The other receive no glory. They continue in spiritual darkness. For them the conditions of hell remain."

 

[LittleIzumi]

I am using Calvert with my 3rd and 5th graders this year. So far its been a good fit. My 9th grader is doing a virtual high school.

 

I was homeschooled for a few years and eighth grade was Calvert!

 

Could use a few prayers this afternoon. Having one of those days where there are too many tempers flaring, to much procrastination and too many dreams of sending them all off to school. Not sure why God thought it was a good idea to bless me with 6 children AND homeschool them....:confused:

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: And with possibly no coffee today, too--this is certainly a great patience lesson day. :grouphug: Before I finally caved and started medication for my ADD girl, I browsed charter schools and PS online all the time. She even went for a week before I pulled her home again. It was like trying to homeschool three brilliant monkeys on springs all at once with her, plus her sister and a wee one.

[LittleIzumi]

 

 

 

"In latter-day revelation hell is spoken of in at least two senses. One is the temporary abode in the spirit world of those who were disobedient in this mortal life. It is between death and the resurrection, and persons who receive the telestial glory will abide there until the last resurrection (D&C 76:84–85, 106), at which time they will go to the telestial glory. In this sense the Book of Mormon speaks of spiritual death as hell (2 Ne. 9:10–12). Hell, as thus defined, will have an end, when all the captive spirits have paid the price of their sins and enter into a degree of glory after their resurrection. Statements about an everlasting hell (Hel. 6:28; Moro. 8:13) must be interpreted in their proper context in the light of D&C 19:4–12, which defines eternal and endless

 

 

With the ones who have to pay for their own sins being the ones who actively rejected Christ and refused to accept the gift of His Atonement? I haven't read the Bible Dictionary much so the exact phrasing is new to me.

[garddwr]

Could use a few prayers this afternoon. Having one of those days where there are too many tempers flaring, to much procrastination and too many dreams of sending them all off to school. Not sure why God thought it was a good idea to bless me with 6 children AND homeschool them....:confused:

 

Just got back from Spanish class. Sending prayers and :grouphug: your way and hope your afternoon has gotten better.

 

I'm a dyed-in-the-wool homeschooler, but daydreams of that idealized school with really small, classes, individualized teaching, and fabulous peers have snuck into my head often this year.

 

"school" today has been limited to Spanish class and an abortive attempt to play Check Math with Honeybee--cut short when Dragonfly overturned the game board. Music practice has gone better--Jumping Spider has his first cello recital tomorrow, and after hanging my head in shame at his lesson yesterday because he hadn't practiced all week he actually played through his recital piece 50 times today (pudding cups may be lacking in nutritional value, but apparently pack a motivational punch for a certain 7 year old boy! Good to know...)

[garddwr]

Interesting. I tend to think it has more to do with keeping women from feeling railroaded into an "equal" obligation with the men. If it's true that reducing the age for men to 18 is intended to reduce their chances of wandering off in other directions and thereby becoming distracted from that which is their sacred duty, then it is probably also true that keeping the age for women at 19 is intended to maintain for the women the freedom that is their right as God's daughters. It is the duty of men to serve as missionaries. It is the right of women to prayerfully choose how best to use their time at that stage of their lives, preparing for a career, preparing for motherhood, working to save money for future need, whatever she and the Lord decide between them. And should she choose to assist the men in fulfilling their duty by serving a mission, that is a gift, not an obligation. It's something the woman maintains the power to grant, not something that men have the power to demand of her. As a woman in the church, and a feminist, I very much appreciate the respect and freedom extended to women in the church, and the power we have over our own lives--even beyond that given to the men. It would make me sad to see that freedom and power diminished in order to make them more identical to men.

 

 

This makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks for sharing your thoughts Mama Sheep.

[dangermom]

I tend to think it has more to do with keeping women from feeling railroaded into an "equal" obligation with the men. If it's true that reducing the age for men to 18 is intended to reduce their chances of wandering off in other directions and thereby becoming distracted from that which is their sacred duty, then it is probably also true that keeping the age for women at 19 is intended to maintain for the women the freedom that is their right as God's daughters. It is the duty of men to serve as missionaries. It is the right of women to prayerfully choose how best to use their time at that stage of their lives, preparing for a career, preparing for motherhood, working to save money for future need, whatever she and the Lord decide between them. And should she choose to assist the men in fulfilling their duty by serving a mission, that is a gift, not an obligation. It's something the woman maintains the power to grant, not something that men have the power to demand of her. As a woman in the church, and a feminist, I very much appreciate the respect and freedom extended to women in the church, and the power we have over our own lives--even beyond that given to the men. It would make me sad to see that freedom and power diminished in order to make them more identical to men.

 

THANK YOU, MamaSheep; that says what I feel so much better than I could say it. :001_smile:

[Veritaserum]

Interesting. I tend to think it has more to do with keeping women from feeling railroaded into an "equal" obligation with the men. If it's true that reducing the age for men to 18 is intended to reduce their chances of wandering off in other directions and thereby becoming distracted from that which is their sacred duty, then it is probably also true that keeping the age for women at 19 is intended to maintain for the women the freedom that is their right as God's daughters. It is the duty of men to serve as missionaries. It is the right of women to prayerfully choose how best to use their time at that stage of their lives, preparing for a career, preparing for motherhood, working to save money for future need, whatever she and the Lord decide between them. And should she choose to assist the men in fulfilling their duty by serving a mission, that is a gift, not an obligation. It's something the woman maintains the power to grant, not something that men have the power to demand of her. As a woman in the church, and a feminist, I very much appreciate the respect and freedom extended to women in the church, and the power we have over our own lives--even beyond that given to the men. It would make me sad to see that freedom and power diminished in order to make them more identical to men.

 

Well, truth be told I wish the men weren't obligated. I wish both sexes were told to prayerfully consider choosing to serve a mission. If an individual feels called by God to go down the path of a formal mission, great. If not, that is fine, too. :)

 

I, um, don't see the same freedom you apparently do when it comes to women in the church. ;) Motherhood--stay at home motherhood in particular--is still held up as the epitome of what women have to offer God, the church, and the world. While I fervently agree that motherhood is important, I wish more emphasis were given to the many other ways women serve and improve the world. So many women never become mothers and many of them feel marginalized by the pointed emphasis on motherhood. I was a person with unique gifts and talents before I became a mother. While motherhood is my main focus at this time in my life, I know that will change as my children become adults. My life's mission is more than bearing and raising children.

 

Many women also feel pain at the false comparison of motherhood somehow being the female equivalent of the priesthood. It's just...not. And it bothers me because there is no female equivalent of the priesthood, which would be priestesshood. The "women are incredible" and "women are more spiritual than men so they don't need the priesthood (or something like it)" sentiments grate as well. Benevolent patriarchies are still patriarchies, which by definition place women under the authority of men.

[Xuzi]

Come move to my area. :D Back in February a Stake south of me hosted a two-day multi-stake "Women in the Workforce" symposium to help women who were entering or re-entering the workforce, or changing careers. They went over building a resume, interview skills, and a bunch of other really useful stuff. :)

 

To the last bit of your post: I agree that I don't like the "women are more spiritual than men" shtick that I've heard repeated by men in the church (although, to memory, I can't recall ever hearing it in General Conference or reading it in an Ensign article. I mainly hear it brought up in Gospel Doctrine classes by men who like spouting "cultural doctrine" rather than printed-in-black-and-white Church Doctrine). Women are women, and men are men, and both are precious in His sight. That particular cliche is harmful to both sexes, IMO.

[Forget-Me-Not]

Seminary is a program of scripture study for high school students, both boys and girls. It is not required but is encouraged.

 

It is required for admission into the BYUs though isn't it? At least for freshman admission? But it won't affect standing/membership in the church.

 

Welovetoread--we've had one of those days here too. We've sort of had a whole week like that. I decided to take a lighter approach to some things and not stress :) :grouphug: Praying tomorrow will be better!

[garddwr]

It is required for admission into the BYUs though isn't it? At least for freshman admission? But it won't affect standing/membership in the church.

 

Not required, from what I understand, but a factor in admissions, especially for students who were members of the church throughout high school and had access to seminary classes. The student with 4 years of seminary will have an advantage over a student with otherwise similar qualifications but no seminary or only a year or two, but the student without seminary is not automatically disqualified.

Seminary attendance is not expected of non-member applicants or recent converts.

 

ETA: Here's the blurb from BYU's catalog:

"LDS Seminary: Students are encouraged to participate in LDS seminary during each year of high school. Brigham Young University is committed to the concept that thoughtful and consistent study of the scriptures is vital to the preparation of those desiring to enter BYU. The number of years of LDS seminary completed (released-time, early morning, or home study) will influence additional consideration in admission decisions."

Edited October 12, 2012 by thegardener

[Veritaserum]

Come move to my area. :D Back in February a Stake south of me hosted a two-day multi-stake "Women in the Workforce" symposium to help women who were entering or re-entering the workforce, or changing careers. They went over building a resume, interview skills, and a bunch of other really useful stuff. :)

 

To the last bit of your post: I agree that I don't like the "women are more spiritual than men" shtick that I've heard repeated by men in the church (although, to memory, I can't recall ever hearing it in General Conference or reading it in an Ensign article. I mainly hear it brought up in Gospel Doctrine classes by men who like spouting "cultural doctrine" rather than printed-in-black-and-white Church Doctrine). Women are women, and men are men, and both are precious in His sight. That particular cliche is harmful to both sexes, IMO.

 

Elder Cook's "LDS Women Are Incredible" talk from last year mentions that women are more religious than men. That talk is a prime example of benevolent patriarchy. I'm not a fan. ;)

[LittleIzumi]

Come move to my area. :D Back in February a Stake south of me hosted a two-day multi-stake "Women in the Workforce" symposium to help women who were entering or re-entering the workforce, or changing careers. They went over building a resume, interview skills, and a bunch of other really useful stuff. :)

 

To the last bit of your post: I agree that I don't like the "women are more spiritual than men" shtick that I've heard repeated by men in the church (although, to memory, I can't recall ever hearing it in General Conference or reading it in an Ensign article. I mainly hear it brought up in Gospel Doctrine classes by men who like spouting "cultural doctrine" rather than printed-in-black-and-white Church Doctrine). Women are women, and men are men, and both are precious in His sight. That particular cliche is harmful to both sexes, IMO.

 

Women are indeed women, and men are men. Biologically, hormonally, mentally, and physiologically different. I don't see why we couldn't be spiritually different, too. We certainly seem to have MUCH more visiting teaching success than home teaching success in our ward. :lol: I totally wear the pants in my house though, so I'm good. :lol: I'm quite comfortable and secure in my position as respected and loved daughter of God who is the mistress of my domain, lol. (Master just sounded odd. But so does mistress. Benevolent overlord?)

Edited October 12, 2012 by LittleIzumi

[Veritaserum]

I don't think of a mission for boys as being their 'obligation', as someone put it. It is still as prayerful and personal a decision for a young man as it is for a young woman. I do not believe it is the corrrect path for every young man nor do I feel it is the only way a young man can learn what he needs to to be an effective priesthood holder or leader in the Church or his own home later as a father/husband. Look at all the converts who have never served missions. Our current Bishop married his wife at 19 and has been a Bishop several times. It is not a prerequisite for service.

 

The negative social ramifications of not serving when a young man has no obvious reason not to are clearly there. There is a lot of pressure to go, whether or not a young man feels that it is what is best for him. If he doesn't go, people tend to wonder why and make erroneous assumptions about his worthiness to serve. I've seen it happen. It shouldn't, but it does.

 

I also disagree that we, as women in the Church, are limited or held down by any benign patriarchy in the least. I have never heard or read anything otherwise. Yes, we are encourged to be wives and mothers if the opportunity arises. But we are also encourgaed to get as much education as we can and to find fullment in whatever path we choose--motherhood or not. It's not like the Church teaches that boys are the only ones who need to be educated and girls only need to know how to run a home/have babies.

 

It's nice for you that you have never felt limited. Your experiences are not mine. :) If anyone is curious about why I and many other active LDS women feel unequal in the church, this is a decent summary:

 

http://www.ldswave.org/?p=402

[LittleIzumi]

The negative social ramifications of not serving when a young man has no obvious reason not to are clearly there. There is a lot of pressure to go, whether or not a young man feels that it is what is best for him. If he doesn't go, people tend to wonder why and make erroneous assumptions about his worthiness to serve. I've seen it happen. It shouldn't, but it does.

 

 

 

It's nice for you that you have never felt limited. Your experiences are not mine. :) If anyone is curious about why I and many other active LDS women feel unequal in the church, this is a decent summary:

 

http://www.ldswave.org/?p=402

 

That's a very interesting read. I have to say I honestly don't feel the same. I do feel my worth is first and foremost as a child of God, there are definitely women in all the PECs I've known or been in myself, and I do expect us to have different callings as we are quite different and learn/operate in different ways. Not better or worse. Just different. So far all of my callings have been equal opportunity, tbh--we have men and women in Primary, Nursery, library, and chorister positions. And I think Primary president should be about five people, not one, no matter the gender :lol:. Oh, I keep forgetting, I'm on enrichment committee. That is girl only, but we're planning girl-only events, so it makes sense. Then it's parenting night for all the guys while we escape :lol:. I know that you feel very strongly on this issue, but I honestly feel very equal, respected, loved, and at peace in my position in Christ's/God's eyes and in the church, and I do not feel any of that hinges solely or even mostly on my uterus. I'm a beloved part of an eternal family regardless, and no one is calling me to submit to anyone but Christ and the prophet's counsel, ever. (I asked my brother once if he thought I was "submissive" after a thread here and he burst out laughing. That's not how I roll. I made the most money for a while, got my degree first, freelance a bit, and have big plans for after the kids are older. I've never felt any conflicts or issues in the realm of working LDS mom except that I personally wished I had more time with my kids.)

Edited October 12, 2012 by LittleIzumi

[Heidi]

The negative social ramifications of not serving when a young man has no obvious reason not to are clearly there. There is a lot of pressure to go, whether or not a young man feels that it is what is best for him. If he doesn't go, people tend to wonder why and make erroneous assumptions about his worthiness to serve. I've seen it happen. It shouldn't, but it does.

 

 

 

It's nice for you that you have never felt limited. Your experiences are not mine. :) If anyone is curious about why I and many other active LDS women feel unequal in the church, this is a decent summary:

 

http://www.ldswave.org/?p=402

 

Thank you for sharing that website. It has really opened my understanding. Those issues never even crossed my mind and I think the feminist mission is, for the most part, a positive mission when put in that light (the way it was presented in the article).

Your comments, Veritaserum, have made me feel uncomfortable. The reason I say this is because if you are looking to change people and to open their eyes to the issue, you won't get very far with the lds women with the negative perspective. This change can be a positive thing. It has to be presented in a positive light if you want a listening audience.

 

Still, even though I see all of the inequality in callings now, I can't muster any concern over the matter. I'm content in my roles in the church. I feel my role is sacred. I'm content to let the men lead. Women, in general, drive me nuts. Men, in general, are to the point, less emotional, and easier to listen to. That's just me and my personality. And I do think it is in the Grand Design that it is this way. So I won't be on the forefront of this change because I just don't care, but I now understand why you do. So thanks!

 

PS. 9 times out of 10 I enjoy the men's talks WAY better than the women's. Let's not change General Conference talks... please!!!! :tongue_smilie:

Edited October 13, 2012 by hmsmith

[welovetoread]

Interesting article. I also think its way cool for feminism women to be in the LDS church, again, another misconception I've held.

[welovetoread]

are there any podcasts that can be recommended? I'm always looking for new podcasts ;)

[Amira]

I also think it's important that there are Mormon feminists. I don't just want to think outside the box, I want the box to be bigger. So many of the LDS women I know around the world have a hard time fitting inside the stereotypical Mormon box even though they have a testimony of the gospel and faith in Jesus Christ. Our experiences and concerns are all so very different from each other.