Advice for a 7 yro who will not sleep

[....]

Thanks in advance for any help with this!

 

My 7 yro will not go to sleep at night. We have a small routine. She brushes her teeth, I read a book to her, she tells me a story and then I tuck her in bed.

 

For about a year, she's been sleeping in the 4 yro's bed, because she's afraid to sleep by herself. After about 15-20 minutes, the 7 yro will start coming out of the room wanting "one more hug" or telling me how scared she is. I usually just walk her back to the bed. This goes on for a looooooong time.

 

Last night, it was 11 pm and she had been crying for HOURS. We were in the next room the entire time, too. She could hear us...my husband kept telling her to go to sleep, etc (so it's not like she was locked in a dungeon somewhere with scary movies playing). She screamed, "Don't leave me in here!!" and the drama just went on and on.

 

At one point, she kicked the 4 yro out of the bed and onto the floor (I'm guessing to get our attention). :glare: So, now we have the 4 yro screaming. My husband took the 7 yro out into the hallway and told her to apologize to the 4 yro. The 7 yro started punching herself in the face and pulling her hair. UGH. It was like a scene from The Exorcist. She pulled out huge chunks of hair! Who does that???

 

Because my 4 yro needs to rest (and shouldn't be attacked in her sleep), we ended up putting the 7 yro to sleep on the couch in the living room.

 

UGH! I really need advice. The adults in our house have to get up at 4:30-5am in the morning. This kid's not going to sleep until 11pm or so.

 

Why is she doing this? What are we doing wrong??? :confused: This has been going on for about a year. She does this about 3 nights a week. Thank-you if you managed to read all that. Sigh.

[LittleIzumi]

Have you talked to your doctor or therapist about it? That sounds much more extreme than any of my non-sleepers (up for hours every night but not upset about it, or only one upset episode a night).

[justLisa]

Have you talked to your doctor or therapist about it? That sounds much more extreme than any of my non-sleepers (up for hours every night but not upset about it, or only one upset episode a night).

 

Yeah that is beyond "refusing to sleep." I would agree with a professional opinion

[....]

Have you talked to your doctor or therapist about it?

 

Yeah, I plan to make an appointment with the pediatrician.

[Whereneverever]

Never mind!

Edited September 29, 2012 by theretohere

[canadianmomtofour]

Yeah that is beyond "refusing to sleep." I would agree with a professional opinion

 

:iagree:

 

My 12yo with autism still does not sleep well, and my 6yo also struggles with night time anxiety. I don't have any advice other than what's already been given, but we have spent most of our parenting years with kids in our bedroom. I couldn't stand to let them suffer.

[freeindeed]

:grouphug:

I hope the pediatrician has answers.

[Unicorn.]

Have you asked her what is making her afraid? Have you tried sitting w/ her until she falls asleep? Does she have a night light? What about sleeping in the same room w/ older sister? Would you consider letting her sleep on a pallet in your room? If all of these have been done, I might look at melatonin (for falling asleep) and valerian root (for staying asleep).

[Joshin]

Sounds like one of mine, and we had to put our foot down firmly. No shared beds, in your own room. We put a nightlight in his room. If he didn't want to sleep, that was fine, but he was in his room and lights were out. If he came out he was carried back in and we didn't say a word to him. No arguing, pleading, or discussion. If he threw a tantrum, he was placed in his bed to throw the tantrum. It was hell for a few weeks. It was a two hour process at first. No TV or rowdy play for the hour leading to bedtime, just to avoid the stimulation. I wanted to scream on many nights at first. But finally he stopped. He began falling asleep with no issues.

 

With out son, I think part of the problem is he just needs less sleep than most kids. We moved his bedtime to 9pm (from 8) because he would always lay in bed a couple of hours without sleeping even after he was broken of the bedtime tantrums. We gave him a booklight, books and a clipboard with paper on his bedside table. He still stays up with books or drawing until about 10, and he still rolls out of bed at 6 am every morning bright and chipper. I think some of it was also a control issue, whether he realized it or not. He was testing limits and bedtime tantrums were his way.

 

We discussed the behavior during the day with him after the first few nights of our firmer methods. (He was about a year younger than your daughter). There were some fears he had developed, such as of his closet. Simple, we hung bells on the closet door so nothing could sneak out. We came up with the solutions together. We also implemented a wall chart where he got a sticker each morning he went to bed without issues. After he earned 30 stickers, he received a small reward. We used the chart for about two months before we were secure that he had overcome his bedtime issues.

 

DH had to be completely on board. It's hard to put a fighting kid to bed that's throwing a tantrum. Sometimes my temper would flare and I wanted to yell or engage him. This is when DH would step in. Now he's a pleasure to put to bed and there is rarely anything more than a "please, mom, 10 more minutes?" said at bedtime.

[Ruby Rose]

I agree with the others. Seek professional help.

 

My dd has NEVER slept well. Even as a baby it would take me an hour to get her to sleep 20 minutes. As she got older she continued not to be able to turn her brain off long enough to fall asleep. Melatonin has been a lifesaver for her.

[Guest submarines]

Have you tried changing the routine? It doesn't seem to be working for your DD right now.

 

I'm surprised by all the responses suggesting professional help as the first step. What about simply not being okay with anyone crying for hours next to you? That's the first step towards creating peaceful sleep environments for a fearful child who is unable to fall asleep easily.

[....]

Have you asked her what is making her afraid?

 

We had 3 deaths in our family this year (older grandparents and my uncle) and I really think it has something to do with this.

[LeslieAnneLevine]

While I think it's good to get professional advice about her hurting herself, I think the key is to not let it escalate to that, if you can.

 

I would put a chair or mattress or something in her room and stay in there while she falls asleep. Hearing a parent yell "go to sleep" through the wall isn't exactly comforting, but your calm presence in the room might be. This isn't a kid who's just trying to stay up a little later or who only has a little bit of fear she could overcome by herself.

 

 

For whatever reason, she has anxiety being in bed at night and I would look for ways to ease that. I don't think it's fair to expect her to "just go to sleep" any more than it's fair to expect a dyslexic child to "just read". It will take some time and effort on your part, but that has got to be better than having her be so upset for hours.

 

eta: How did she do once she was on the couch? Did she feel more comfortable there?

[....]

Have you tried changing the routine? It doesn't seem to be working for your DD right now.

 

I'm surprised by all the responses suggesting professional help as the first step. What about simply not being okay with anyone crying for hours next to you? That's the first step towards creating peaceful sleep environments for a fearful child who is unable to fall asleep easily.

 

I would really like to just move her into my room indefinitely, but my husband doesn't want the kids in our room at night.

[....]

eta: How did she do once she was on the couch? Did she feel more comfortable there?

 

 

She was able to go to sleep.

[....]

Sounds like one of mine, and we had to put our foot down firmly. No shared beds, in your own room. We put a nightlight in his room. If he didn't want to sleep, that was fine, but he was in his room and lights were out. If he came out he was carried back in and we didn't say a word to him. No arguing, pleading, or discussion. If he threw a tantrum, he was placed in his bed to throw the tantrum. It was hell for a few weeks. It was a two hour process at first. No TV or rowdy play for the hour leading to bedtime, just to avoid the stimulation. I wanted to scream on many nights at first. But finally he stopped. He began falling asleep with no issues.

 

With out son, I think part of the problem is he just needs less sleep than most kids. We moved his bedtime to 9pm (from 8) because he would always lay in bed a couple of hours without sleeping even after he was broken of the bedtime tantrums. We gave him a booklight, books and a clipboard with paper on his bedside table. He still stays up with books or drawing until about 10, and he still rolls out of bed at 6 am every morning bright and chipper. I think some of it was also a control issue, whether he realized it or not. He was testing limits and bedtime tantrums were his way.

 

We discussed the behavior during the day with him after the first few nights of our firmer methods. (He was about a year younger than your daughter). There were some fears he had developed, such as of his closet. Simple, we hung bells on the closet door so nothing could sneak out. We came up with the solutions together. We also implemented a wall chart where he got a sticker each morning he went to bed without issues. After he earned 30 stickers, he received a small reward. We used the chart for about two months before we were secure that he had overcome his bedtime issues.

 

DH had to be completely on board. It's hard to put a fighting kid to bed that's throwing a tantrum. Sometimes my temper would flare and I wanted to yell or engage him. This is when DH would step in. Now he's a pleasure to put to bed and there is rarely anything more than a "please, mom, 10 more minutes?" said at bedtime.

 

Ok, this is very similar to how my husband parents. Like Supernanny.

[LeslieAnneLevine]

eta: How did she do once she was on the couch? Did she feel more comfortable there?

 

 

She was able to go to sleep.

 

Would that be a possibility at all?

This just seems like an extreme case that I don't think the "lead her by the hand back to bed without a word" advice is a good idea.

[Guest submarines]

I would really like to just move her into my room indefinitely, but my husband doesn't want the kids in our room at night.

 

:grouphug: What are his objections? Does he understand her needs?

 

Can you sleep in her room for a while? With the stressors that you describe, it isn't unusual to develop sleep issues. You need to work extra hard to get her back to being comfortable with falling asleep before it escalates even further.

[Clear Creek]

Thanks in advance for any help with this!

 

My 7 yro will not go to sleep at night. We have a small routine. She brushes her teeth, I read a book to her, she tells me a story and then I tuck her in bed.

 

For about a year, she's been sleeping in the 4 yro's bed, because she's afraid to sleep by herself. After about 15-20 minutes, the 7 yro will start coming out of the room wanting "one more hug" or telling me how scared she is. I usually just walk her back to the bed. This goes on for a looooooong time.

 

Last night, it was 11 pm and she had been crying for HOURS. We were in the next room the entire time, too. She could hear us...my husband kept telling her to go to sleep, etc (so it's not like she was locked in a dungeon somewhere with scary movies playing). She screamed, "Don't leave me in here!!" and the drama just went on and on.

 

At one point, she kicked the 4 yro out of the bed and onto the floor (I'm guessing to get our attention). :glare: So, now we have the 4 yro screaming. My husband took the 7 yro out into the hallway and told her to apologize to the 4 yro. The 7 yro started punching herself in the face and pulling her hair. UGH. It was like a scene from The Exorcist. She pulled out huge chunks of hair! Who does that???

 

Because my 4 yro needs to rest (and shouldn't be attacked in her sleep), we ended up putting the 7 yro to sleep on the couch in the living room.

 

UGH! I really need advice. The adults in our house have to get up at 4:30-5am in the morning. This kid's not going to sleep until 11pm or so.

 

Why is she doing this? What are we doing wrong??? :confused: This has been going on for about a year. She does this about 3 nights a week. Thank-you if you managed to read all that. Sigh.

 

My middle child was like this for years before we found out that red 40 food dye caused her insomnia. We cut it out of her diet completely (I read the ingredients of everything before it ever goes on her plate!) and she now sleeps all night, every night.

 

It would be worth a try. It is in some of the most unbelievable foods; just because a food isn't red doesn't mean that it doesn't have red 40 in it. For our daughter it was like a light switch...she fell asleep right after going to bed and slept through the night the very first night after we cut out red 40.

 

Just to make sure that it was the red 40 we tested her...we gave her a popsicle with it one evening, and she couldn't fall asleep that night...I gave her some benadryl and it didn't make a difference, she still was up until after 1AM!

 

ETA: We thought that it was anxiety issues with her for a long time. It really, really upset her that she couldn't sleep and she would come out of her room with all sorts of excuses and fears, and cry for hours.

[*Jessica*]

My middle child was like this for years before we found out that red 40 food dye caused her insomnia. We cut it out of her diet completely (I read the ingredients of everything before it ever goes on her plate!) and she now sleeps all night, every night.

 

It would be worth a try. It is in some of the most unbelievable foods; just because a food isn't red doesn't mean that it doesn't have red 40 in it. For our daughter it was like a light switch...she fell asleep right after going to bed and slept through the night the very first night after we cut out red 40.

 

Just to make sure that it was the red 40 we tested her...we gave her a popsicle with it one evening, and she couldn't fall asleep that night...I gave her some benadryl and it didn't make a difference, she still was up until after 1AM!

 

ETA: We thought that it was anxiety issues with her for a long time. It really, really upset her that she couldn't sleep and she would come out of her room with all sorts of excuses and fears, and cry for hours.

:iagree: My 7-year-old is like this. Cutting out dyes has made a huge difference for us!

[Hockey Mom]

My middle child was like this for years before we found out that red 40 food dye caused her insomnia. We cut it out of her diet completely (I read the ingredients of everything before it ever goes on her plate!) and she now sleeps all night, every night.

 

It would be worth a try. It is in some of the most unbelievable foods; just because a food isn't red doesn't mean that it doesn't have red 40 in it. For our daughter it was like a light switch...she fell asleep right after going to bed and slept through the night the very first night after we cut out red 40.

 

Just to make sure that it was the red 40 we tested her...we gave her a popsicle with it one evening, and she couldn't fall asleep that night...I gave her some benadryl and it didn't make a difference, she still was up until after 1AM!

 

ETA: We thought that it was anxiety issues with her for a long time. It really, really upset her that she couldn't sleep and she would come out of her room with all sorts of excuses and fears, and cry for hours.

 

:iagree:

 

That was the very first thing that popped into my head when read the OP. Red dye 40 is evil stuff.

 

My boys can't sleep unless they have a nightlight. A very bright nightlight.

[Unicorn.]

We had 3 deaths in our family this year (older grandparents and my uncle) and I really think it has something to do with this.

 

That might explain it. I would look at counseling.

[Jennifer in MI]

Your poor dd! And, you sound like you feel caught in the middle here - between your dd and dh. :grouphug: That's a tough place to be.

 

I have an extremely anxious daughter. If she doesn't get her sleep, she has worse anxiety. I agree with the PP who mentioned sleeping with her. Can lie down with her until she falls asleep? In her room. This works for my dd. If someone isn't with her, she is too scared to fall asleep.

 

I've learned with anxiety, you need to be very gentle. It's not giving in. It's giving them what they need at that time so that they can deal with whatever issues they have.

 

FWIW - I've come to love the time I have with dd in my arms as she falls asleep. She's my youngest, so I have to indulge her - right? :001_smile: Seriously - I am much more relaxed with her. I'm not going to spoil her by helping her go to sleep at night. Eventually she'll want to do it all on her own.

 

:grouphug: I really do feel for all of you!

[presley]

This thread has been helpful to me tonight. I have a 7-year-old daughter that won't go to sleep either. I think partly not sleepy, doesn't want to miss anything, excess energy. I've never considered food dye. I'll be checking into that! Melatonin does help but I try not to use it every night, not sure why not though.

 

OP, good luck with finding something to help your daughter and all of you to get more sleep.

[IsabelC]

Here is Dr Laura Markham's advice regarding a 7yo boy whose parents wanted him to learn to go to sleep alone. Maybe some things for you to consider?

 

Re the sleep issue, you really can begin to break this habit. I do need to warn you that it will take self discipline on your part, beaycause it will take a few months to complete the process. But at the end of that time your son will be comfortable sleeping in his bed all night.

 

Your first step is to talk with your son. Introduce the idea that now that he is seven he needs to learn to sleep by himself. Seven year olds go to school, they learn to read, they learn to ride a bike, and they learn to go to sleep by themselves. Reassure him that you will always be there if he needs you in the night or when he is falling asleep, and that you will help him learn. Praise him for any progress and tell him how proud you are that he is learning to sleep by himself. He needs some motivation to do what is, after all, a hard thing for most kids.

 

Any other motivation you can give him will also be valuable; some kids respond very well to little prizes in the morning. If he shows any interest in eventually having sleepovers, you can praise his progress toward them. Also remember to provide plenty of physical closeness and snuggles during the day, to make up for his independence at night.

 

Begin with a bedtime routine that gives your son a chance to wind down: maybe a bath, 2 stories, tucking in his stuffed animals, and a backrub. Make sure you begin early enough in the evening that he hasn't gotten his "second wind" yet. I find that bedtime routines usually take a full hour if they include a bath.

 

Step one is to hold your son until he falls asleep -- but you can't lie- down, which puts you in danger of falling asleep. Use the time to meditate, if you can, or think of something delightful that you can look forward to. It often helps to give kids a large stuffed animal or pillow to hold and curl around, to substitute for them being able to twine around you. But in the beginning, definitely hold him so that he feels held, just don't lie down with him.

 

Once he's used to falling asleep with you sitting in bed by him and holding him, the next phase is to touch, but not hold, your child. Kids resist this step, but eventually get used to falling asleep this way. Eventually, he will be able to fall asleep with you simply holding his hand, or putting your hand on his forehead.

 

When he can fall asleep being touched but not held, begin to sit next to him while he falls asleep, without actually touching him. In the beginning, you will probably need to sit close enough to him that he can touch you briefly if he wants to reach out. Make a big deal of how proud you are that he is able to do this.

 

Finally, begin sitting further and further away, until, eventually, you are outside the bedroom door (which could take a month!) I used a flashlight to read, which was a welcome relief from sitting in the dark. Another variation on this process is to move quietly around the room, straightening up or folding laundry, while he falls asleep. This provides a sense of security, without him depending on your physical proximity.

 

After he is used to falling asleep without you touching him, the process will move faster. Then you can leave the room for longer and longer periods ("I'll be right back, I just remembered I have to check the laundry") beginning by sitting right outside his door with a good book.

 

You will probably find that some days he backslides and needs you to touch him again. That's ok, it won't sabotage your overall momentum, as long as it isn't frequent and the next day you're back to your program.

 

Night wakings usually diminish as kids learn to put themselves to sleep, because when they wake slightly at night they're no longer looking around for mom. While your son is still needing you to fall asleep, however, he will probably keep waking up at night. If he does wake and need you in the night, you can minimize his repeating that behavior by returning him to his own bed, and repeating your bedtime practice of sitting near him (most parents lie down on the rug with a blanket) while he falls asleep. I know this means you will be spending some nights on the floor in his room. But you are steadily moving in the direction of nighttime independence in a way that protects your son's sense of security, so in my view it's worth it as long as you're making steady progress in the right direction.

 

I hasten to add that many parents who are teaching their child to fall asleep by himself just let him into their bed if he awakens at night, and there is no problem with doing that. It will not sabotage what you are doing at bedtime, and once he is comfortable putting himself to sleep, he will generally be able to do that at night also.

 

Sometimes a divorce, and shuttling between two homes, causes kids extra insecurity that slows this process, but they will still learn to sleep by themselves if you are clear about your intention that they are ready to do so and need to do so. You may have to offer lots of extra connection and reassurance during the day, though.

 

This gradual program provides a sense of security while at the same time teaching your son to feel comfortable falling asleep without your physical proximity. Eventually, you’ll find that he is asleep almost as soon as his head settles on the pillow – and you’ll be amazed to find you actually have an evening!

Edited September 28, 2012 by Hotdrink

[....]

Thank-you, Everybody! I feel better after hearing that other parents are struggling with this, too. So that my husband and I could get some sleep last night, we ended up putting her on the floor of our room. ;) Best night of sleep ever. The clouds of sleep deprivation are lifted! :tongue_smilie: My husband and I are going to let her sleep with us until her stress level dies down a bit and then I think we're going to try easing her back into her own bed. She did ask me a couple of questions last night about the grandparent who died this summer and I think this just might be what's bothering her.

 

Hotdrink - I think I'm going to try Dr. Markham's advice after our household calms down a bit. That sounds like good advice!

[Guest submarines]

Thank-you, Everybody! I feel better after hearing that other parents are struggling with this, too. So that my husband and I could get some sleep last night, we ended up putting her on the floor of our room. ;) Best night of sleep ever. The clouds of sleep deprivation are lifted! :tongue_smilie: My husband and I are going to let her sleep with us until her stress level dies down a bit and then I think we're going to try easing her back into her own bed. She did ask me a couple of questions last night about the grandparent who died this summer and I think this just might be what's bothering her.

 

Hotdrink - I think I'm going to try Dr. Markham's advice after our household calms down a bit. That sounds like good advice!

 

:party:

[LittleIzumi]

Thank-you, Everybody! I feel better after hearing that other parents are struggling with this, too. So that my husband and I could get some sleep last night, we ended up putting her on the floor of our room. ;) Best night of sleep ever. The clouds of sleep deprivation are lifted! :tongue_smilie: My husband and I are going to let her sleep with us until her stress level dies down a bit and then I think we're going to try easing her back into her own bed. She did ask me a couple of questions last night about the grandparent who died this summer and I think this just might be what's bothering her.

 

Hotdrink - I think I'm going to try Dr. Markham's advice after our household calms down a bit. That sounds like good advice!

 

Fantastic!!

[CupOCoffee]

Thank-you, Everybody! I feel better after hearing that other parents are struggling with this, too. So that my husband and I could get some sleep last night, we ended up putting her on the floor of our room. ;) Best night of sleep ever. The clouds of sleep deprivation are lifted! :tongue_smilie: My husband and I are going to let her sleep with us until her stress level dies down a bit and then I think we're going to try easing her back into her own bed. She did ask me a couple of questions last night about the grandparent who died this summer and I think this just might be what's bothering her.

 

Hotdrink - I think I'm going to try Dr. Markham's advice after our household calms down a bit. That sounds like good advice!

 

Well the response I *had* been formulating is now moot! YAY!

 

We are "room sharers" not full co-sleepers, and I am so glad we did things that way - for us, whatever method gets *everyone* the best sleep is the method that is right for a family!!

 

Good for you and your husband on being there for her in this obvious time of need!