PA homeschooling law . . . sigh

[Girl Power]

I've homeschooled in this state a long time and I know the law and have never had any problems with our portfolios which, admittedly, are very minimal.

 

I know different districts approach the law, which is pretty vague if you ask me, differently. Our district has us drop off the porfolios to the school the child WOULD be attending for review by the principal. This is not new for our district, although I much prefer the requirements of most district who have you drop them all off at the superintendents or, even better, just send the evaluator's report.

 

What is new in our district, however, is a streamlined "checklist" the principal must fill out after reviewing the portfolio. It breaks down each subject and has the principal comment on whether or not appropriate education has occurred in each, with a place for comments. Also included:

 

Did this student participate in curricular/extracurricular activities?

 

Does the portfolio demonstrate that appropriate learning has occurred in the following areas? (includes separate sections for english, math, ss, science, arts/humanities, safety education, health, physed, music/art)

 

Does the portfolio demonstrate sustained progress in the overall program and demonstrate 900 hours (k-6) or 990 hours (7-12)?

 

It also encloses a copy of Pa Home Education Law, for our reference.

 

The principal then sends the form to the superintendent for review.

 

I received my dd15's checklist back for her 9th grade year. Under several of the subjects (Latin, Math, History) he checked "yes" but commented "limited documentation", checked "no" for English/Composition even though I included several essays dd wrote, and checked "no" for did child demonstrate overall progress and 990 hours, commenting, "in my opinion, the enclosed samples do not constitute 990 hours". What?????

 

There are so many things I see wrong here, but here are my top two:

 

1. Pa law requires a comprehensive evaluation with a homeschool evaluator, during which time they actually TALK TO THE CHILD AND PARENT, discuss their work for the year, and go over work samples. That evaluator must certify whether, in their opinion, an appropriate education has occurred. For a principal to look at a LIMITED SAMPLING of a child's work and make any sort of accurate evaluation is laughable. How the heck can he even begin to form an opinion on how many hours dd worked?

 

2. I have real problems with any principal with a chip on his shoulder against home schoolers (which, honestly, this man seems to have) making any sort of judgment on our homeschool based on such limited information as samples in a porfolio.

 

Now, having said that, after discussion with the superintendent, she advised she takes the principal's feedback into consideration but makes the final determination on whether the porfolio was acceptable and in our case she has, otherwise we would have received the dreaded certified letter. But I still have very real concerns about how our district's treatment of portfolio submission.

 

What say you? (Paula, would love your thoughts) . . .

 

Beck

[Garga]

Wait, so your district requires the evaluator, the principal, and the superintendent to review your portfolio??? Ooooo. I'd be ticked.

 

And the portfolio is supposed to show something like only three pages for each subject. A page from the beginning of the year, one from the middle and one from the end, to show progress. Of course three pages doesn't look like 990 hours of work!! Grrrrr!

[Girl Power]

Wait, so your district requires the evaluator, the principal, and the superintendent to review your portfolio??? Ooooo. I'd be ticked.

 

And the portfolio is supposed to show something like only three pages for each subject. A page from the beginning of the year, one from the middle and one from the end, to show progress. Of course three pages doesn't look like 990 hours of work!! Grrrrr!

 

Exactly! And based on those sparse samples he is basically overriding the evaluator, who we meet with for over an hour!

 

Beck

[Reflections]

I'm sorry about PA. :grouphug:

[MedicMom]

I live so close to the NY/PA border that both my kids were born in PA. We have often talked of moving just because PA taxes are much lower....this is exactly the reason we dont' move.

[staysee34]

WHOA!!! Are you kidding me?? I'm sorry but what a load of crap!! PA Law clearly states that you are required to provide proof of 180 days of education or 900 hours (K-8)/ 990 hours (9-12). Did they specific request hours? If they did, they are in violation of the law. Also, as long as you showed at least one sample from each of the required subjects and a list of materials used your obligation has been met.

 

Where I live, we had an evaluator come to the house. She was a very nice lady. After she did her paper work, I hand delivered the portfolios to the superintendents office where they underwent yet another evaluation. This evaluator was also pleasant and even called me to question about DD10's progress. There was no trouble at all and I didn't go overboard with the samples either.

 

Seeing as how your daughter's portfolio was approved, I don't know if I would fight it or not. But I would certainly make sure to include a copy of the law, highlighting the important sections with next years portfolio.

[Riverland]

Thank you for reminding me that I don't want to move to PA (or NY or ....).

 

That's just ridiculous.

[Carrie12345]

I'm sorry your DISTRICT is so screwed up.

 

(Why is it that when people in NJ or TX get harassed, nobody goes off on how awful the state is?!)

[vettechmomof2]

What they are doing is wrong. I would argue it.

[Girl Power]

I'm sorry your DISTRICT is so screwed up.

 

(Why is it that when people in NJ or TX get harassed, nobody goes off on how awful the state is?!)

 

Not saying the state is awful at all, Carrie. I love PA. Wouldn't live anywhere else. But homeschooling law is very vague here and leaves too much discretion to the school district, so there can be vast difference from one district to the next.

 

Beck

[Carrie12345]

Not saying the state is awful at all, Carrie. I love PA. Wouldn't live anywhere else. But homeschooling law is very vague here and leaves too much discretion to the school district, so there can be vast difference from one district to the next.

 

Beck

 

Oh, that was mostly rhetorical. ;)

It just annoys me to have the PA hs stereotype reinforced when someone has an issue with an overzealous district that doesn't understand their role.

[Girl Power]

Oh, that was mostly rhetorical. ;)

It just annoys me to have the PA hs stereotype reinforced when someone has an issue with an overzealous district that doesn't understand their role.

 

 

Well, PA earns it's own reputation by having homeschooling law that is among the strictest in the nation but vague enough to allow the many districts to overstep, IMHO;)

 

Beck

[IsabelC]

It doesn't sound like your district is following the intent of the law properly.

 

Are you going to keep you head down and avoid trouble? Or do you feel that you should take you conerns further?

 

 

I feel thankful to be living somewhere where the requirements are very basic and flexible.

[Girl Power]

It doesn't sound like your district is following the intent of the law properly.

 

Are you going to keep you head down and avoid trouble? Or do you feel that you should take you conerns further?

 

 

I feel thankful to be living somewhere where the requirements are very basic and flexible.

 

Well, I'm not a member of the HSLDA, but I'm thinking of sending them a letter and enclosing the checklist for their info. Does anyone know if HSLDA gets involved if I am a non-member?

 

thanks,

Beck

[Momof3littles]

Bumping to see if you have any updates.

 

Do you know of any HSers within your district? What do they think of the changes?

 

If I was faced with that situation, I guess I would have to decide whether to ignore him until I was sent a certified letter saying we aren't making progress in the overall program, etc. or I would consider banding together with other parents and splitting the cost of hiring an attorney to write a short "buzz off/back off" letter with the correct citations and so forth.

[Rebel Yell]

It sounds like you are very familiar with what the law actually does and does not require.... so I won;t say much about that...

 

there is no requirement to prove or document 180 days/900/990 hours

 

Not every subject has to be taught every year, except of course continuous instruction in the prevention of fires...:glare:

 

nothing in the PA law defines a credit,

 

Anyway, have you gotten an actually certified letter, or was his checklist just his opinion?

 

How crummy. :grouphug:

[Sue G in PA]

HSLDA!!!!! Our district is getting more and more strict and pulling cr@p like this as well. First, I would write a letter to the super outlining PA law re: the specific areas of frustration. 1. The law does NOT specify how many samples to include per subject AND those samples are not what should determine 990 hours or 180 days (otherwise we'd have to submit an entire year's worth of material). We document DAYS...not hours (for this very reason). 2. You should not be required to turn in portfolios to the schools. Law specifically says to the superintendent's office. I WOULD fight this. If the super wants to distribute them to the respective principals, fine. I would also have the district take it up with your evaluator. After all, she DID approve your portfolio. I'm sorry you are dealing with this. Our district is getting a bit too over the top intrusive, too.

[NanceXToo]

Well, PA earns it's own reputation by having homeschooling law that is among the strictest in the nation but vague enough to allow the many districts to overstep, IMHO;)

 

Beck

 

I agree. And then add in how the new "homeschooling liaison" decided to change the PDE website to reflect her own interpretation of the home ed law, and it's quite the circus.

[Jpoy85]

Well, I'm not a member of the HSLDA, but I'm thinking of sending them a letter and enclosing the checklist for their info. Does anyone know if HSLDA gets involved if I am a non-member?

 

thanks,

Beck

 

You can always email and ask. HSLDA or HLA.

[Momof3littles]

I agree. And then add in how the new "homeschooling liaison" decided to change the PDE website to reflect her own interpretation of the home ed law, and it's quite the circus.

Yeah, I think some of the recent issues are directly attributable to this little situation with the liaison.

 

I love how she put up the info on standards for each grade level (when we aren't required to meet those), and when she was questioned said it was "as a service to HSers" because she "gets calls all of the time from parents wanting to be sure that their children are meeting PS standards while homeschooled." Except, she originally put those standards up under the "school district oversight" section of the home education law pages. That couldn't *possibly* lead to SDs thinking they could apply those standards to HSers, right?? :glare: When asked, she shrugged it off saying she didn't think it would cause any confusion :001_huh: :confused:

 

Mysteriously, our district started specifically asking for a "three inch binder" as the "required" format last year right after her pages went up saying the port should be in a 3 inch binder. She changed it later to a "large 3 ring binder." I am quite sure our district got the idea that they could require a 3 inch binder as the format based on the changes made to the PDE pages. Thankfully I've heard they backed off of that this year.

Edited September 4, 2012 by Momof3littles

[happypamama]

Wait, so your district requires the evaluator, the principal, and the superintendent to review your portfolio??? Ooooo. I'd be ticked.

 

And the portfolio is supposed to show something like only three pages for each subject. A page from the beginning of the year, one from the middle and one from the end, to show progress. Of course three pages doesn't look like 990 hours of work!! Grrrrr!

 

Yes to all of this! My evaluator would be steaming if my school district came back at me with that garbage.

 

I think I'd be sending them a certified letter stating that I met the requirements of the law, and inform them that they need to show me, in writing, where I did not meet the law's requirements. Beyond that, I'm not sure how the best way to proceed is, but that sounds ridiculous to me.

[happypamama]

Oh, that was mostly rhetorical. ;)

It just annoys me to have the PA hs stereotype reinforced when someone has an issue with an overzealous district that doesn't understand their role.

 

Agreed. Our district has been great, very pleasant to the homeschoolers, very friendly. The most they've commented is that they stuck a post-it note on DD's portfolio this year to commend her on her reading list. :)

[NanceXToo]

Yeah, I think some of the recent issues are directly attributable to this little situation with the liaison.

 

I love how she put up the info on standards for each grade level (when we aren't required to meet those), and when she was questioned said it was "as a service to HSers" because she "gets calls all of the time from parents wanting to be sure that their children are meeting PS standards while homeschooled." Except, she originally put those standards up under the "school district oversight" section of the home education law pages. That couldn't *possibly* lead to SDs thinking they could apply those standards to HSers, right?? :glare: When asked, she shrugged it off saying she didn't think it would cause any confusion :001_huh: :confused:

 

Mysteriously, our district started specifically asking for a "three inch binder" as the "required" format last year right after her pages went up saying the port should be in a 3 inch binder. She changed it later to a "large 3 ring binder." I am quite sure our district got the idea that they could require a 3 inch binder as the format based on the changes made to the PDE pages. Thankfully I've heard they backed off of that this year.

 

Yep. And my district mysteriously sent out a letter saying as per the "new" homeschooling law (what?!?!?!) portfolios should include an "instructional activity log" after she made those changes.

[Momof3littles]

Agreed. Our district has been great, very pleasant to the homeschoolers, very friendly. The most they've commented is that they stuck a post-it note on DD's portfolio this year to commend her on her reading list. :)

I think there are many districts that are easy to work with. However, that can change quickly. We moved into a district known to be easy to work with, and then there was a personnel change. I didn't have to submit a port last year, but those who did in my district ran into problems with the new person handling ports. They also suddenly started making demands about format and so forth that I'm pretty sure were coming from the PDE pages, and they seemed to think those things were part of the law (demanding port be in a specific size binder, labeled a particular way, demanding HSers use their evaulator form which asked for things outside of the law, etc.). What is frustrating is an easy to work with district can become not so easy to deal with just with one personnel change.

[Shawna in North CA]

Beck, you are far more patient and gracious than me.

 

For the first time...ever...I am thankful for our laws in California! For all the regulations CA has about EVERYTHING, our state is very liberal in regards to private education and homeschooling.

 

The idea that the State would require ANYTHING of a homeschooling family, who is not using public funds, boils my blood. Our children do not belong to the State. And if we decide that we do not need or want their assistance in educating our children, they need to BUG OFF.

[justasque]

What is new in our district, however, is a streamlined "checklist" the principal must fill out after reviewing the portfolio. It breaks down each subject and has the principal comment on whether or not appropriate education has occurred in each, with a place for comments. Also included:

 

Did this student participate in curricular/extracurricular activities?

 

Does the portfolio demonstrate that appropriate learning has occurred in the following areas? (includes separate sections for english, math, ss, science, arts/humanities, safety education, health, physed, music/art)

 

Does the portfolio demonstrate sustained progress in the overall program and demonstrate 900 hours (k-6) or 990 hours (7-12)?

 

...The principal then sends the form to the superintendent for review.

 

 

Part of me really cringes at this. On the other hand, if the super is going to delegate his job to an underling, they do have to have some kind of process where the underling can communicate his findings to the super, so I can see that a form for that would be useful to them. The question is what's on the form and how they use it.

 

Extracurriculars are an odd thing to be on the form; many things that would be "extracurricular" to schooled kids are actually "curricular" for ours - sports instead of PE, game day as part of math/logic, independent reading counting towards English. But whatever...

 

The hours/days thing, though, is problematic. First, obviously it's your choice to do hours OR days, and if you do days, there is no hours requirement. If they're only looking for hours, well, they won't get them in a lot of ports, because most of us do days. They need to be happy with either/or.

 

Also - did you include anything that specifically addressed the days/hours, like an attendance chart, or log entries? I know the law doesn't require anything specific to speak to days/hours; I personally don't think the "log of reading materials" needs to be filled out daily. The problem is, if there's nothing that says "Look, little Johnny did 180 days! I checked them off on this chart - see?!", then the super is left to try to deduce whether you met days/hours without much to go on. One choice he might make is to say "well, this doesn't look like a year's worth of work to me", which of course it not the intention of the samples, but which then puts you on the defensive, at a stage in the game where a one-page checklist of days can look a little lame and may not be sufficient to convince the super. So I'm a fan of having *something* in the port that, proactively, specifically spells out the number of days/hours you did, so that it's harder for them to come back and say "we don't think you did enough days/hours". Not foolproof, of course, but something to consider.

 

It also encloses a copy of Pa Home Education Law, for our reference.

 

 

Oh, bless their hearts, how thoughtful. :tongue_smilie:

 

I received my dd15's checklist back for her 9th grade year. Under several of the subjects (Latin, Math, History) he checked "yes" but commented "limited documentation", checked "no" for English/Composition even though I included several essays dd wrote,

 

 

Wait - did he have a category for Latin? LOL!

 

Obviously this guy seems to think that this is supposed to represent everything you did this year. I've seen that several times this year, and I think that it may be in part because of the new PDE website. Ugh.

 

I think I need to write up some kind of FAQ page that folks can put in their ports in the hopes of nipping this misconception in the bud. There's also a rash of issues around districts thinking that home educators need to meet state standards, both at portfolio time and regarding the objectives. Ugh, ugh, ugh.

 

and checked "no" for did child demonstrate overall progress and 990 hours, commenting, "in my opinion, the enclosed samples do not constitute 990 hours". What?????

 

 

Of course, you know they're not supposed to. But I guess he didn't. Ugh.

 

There are so many things I see wrong here, but here are my top two:

 

1. Pa law requires a comprehensive evaluation with a homeschool evaluator, during which time they actually TALK TO THE CHILD AND PARENT, discuss their work for the year, and go over work samples. That evaluator must certify whether, in their opinion, an appropriate education has occurred. For a principal to look at a LIMITED SAMPLING of a child's work and make any sort of accurate evaluation is laughable. How the heck can he even begin to form an opinion on how many hours dd worked?

 

 

 

I agree. I'm thinking my FAQ page should make it very clear that the port has already been reviewed by a qualified evaluator, AND the child has been interviewed. At the same time, looking at it from their perspective, they're being asked to make a judgement call as to whether the port demonstrated the hours were met. As folks are moving away from the giant 4" portfolios and the lengthy written evaluations, it does get harder. On the other hand, if the port shows work that is reasonably literate/numerate, it really should get a pass as the law is (in theory anyway) mostly there to deal with extreme cases of kids not being well-served by home education. Ugh, ugh, ugh.

 

2. I have real problems with any principal with a chip on his shoulder against home schoolers (which, honestly, this man seems to have) making any sort of judgment on our homeschool based on such limited information as samples in a porfolio.

 

 

Agreed.

 

Now, having said that, after discussion with the superintendent, she advised she takes the principal's feedback into consideration but makes the final determination on whether the porfolio was acceptable and in our case she has, otherwise we would have received the dreaded certified letter. But I still have very real concerns about how our district's treatment of portfolio submission.

 

 

I'm glad they're not causing any more trouble this year. However, 1) you just don't need the stress, and 2) they've come out of it thinking they've got the process right, when there are a few very critical misunderstandings as to what the port is for and what they're supposed to do with it.

[justasque]

And the portfolio is supposed to show something like only three pages for each subject. A page from the beginning of the year, one from the middle and one from the end, to show progress. Of course three pages doesn't look like 990 hours of work!! Grrrrr!

 

I'm actually not a fan of the beginning/middle/end philosophy. I know it is supposed to help show progress, but practically speaking sometimes it isn't seen that way. I'd rather include, for example, 3 pages of math from an end-of-year cumulative review with a variety of problem types, which would show the depth and breadth of what the child has done over the year and the level at which he's finishing the year; than a beginning (which is often a below-grade-level intro review), middle (typically on only one topic), and end page. The three "final exam" pages kind of sum up what the child's done all year better than the beginning/middle/end pages. I think when you're going minimal (and I'm a minimal gal myself), each sample has to bear a larger load of speaking to progress and time spent and such, so the meatier the better. It doesn't give a touch point as to where the child started of course, which is problematic, but I'm not sure districts are looking at the ports from that perspective anyway.

 

Exactly! And based on those sparse samples he is basically overriding the evaluator, who we meet with for over an hour!

Beck

 

Ugh.

 

WHOA!!! Are you kidding me?? I'm sorry but what a load of crap!! PA Law clearly states that you are required to provide proof of 180 days of education or 900 hours (K-8)/ 990 hours (9-12). Did they specific request hours? If they did, they are in violation of the law. Also, as long as you showed at least one sample from each of the required subjects and a list of materials used your obligation has been met.

 

 

Well, yes and no. The law doesn't actually specify how or even if the port has to include days/hours, except that 1) the port is supposed to "demonstrate that appropriate education is occurring", and 2) the evaluator and super have to use the port to basically judge appropriate ed, and the definition of appropriate ed includes the days/hours. So the whole "required proof" thing is pretty fuzzy. But that's me being picky - you're completely right that it's days OR hours, not both, and the home ed supervisor gets to decide which, and that it's wise to proactively include something that clearly speaks to days/hours though it's not specifically required.

 

It's also not accurate to say that if you have one sample from each subject and a log of reading materials then your obligation has been met. Because the port has to "demonstrate that appropriate education is occurring", and the eval & super have to basically judge whether it does or not, and part of appropriate ed is "sustained progress in the overall program", there IS a subjective judgement to be made there. Having samples is required, yes, but the CONTENT of those samples also comes into play.

 

Add to that the idea that not every subject needs to be taught every year (as per the PDE), so that in theory you don't need to have something from each subject, but in practice if you don't you're opening up yourself to a claim that you didn't address subject x, and sometimes it's better to fly under the radar with a carefully crafted offense than to be on the defensive. (Mixed metaphors!! Ack!)

 

Well, I'm not a member of the HSLDA, but I'm thinking of sending them a letter and enclosing the checklist for their info. Does anyone know if HSLDA gets involved if I am a non-member?

thanks,

Beck

 

They might. There's been a rash of these cases this year it seems, and they've stepped in for some of them; don't know if the folks were members or not. You could also try working with others in your district to meet with the district and express your concerns.

 

...I would consider banding together with other parents and splitting the cost of hiring an attorney to write a short "buzz off/back off" letter with the correct citations and so forth.

 

There's a lawyer listed on my "district problems" page if you prefer not to go with HSLDA. She's a feisty homeschooling mom.

 

It sounds like you are very familiar with what the law actually does and does not require.... so I won;t say much about that...

 

there is no requirement to prove or document 180 days/900/990 hours

 

 

Agreed. (Except as discussed above.)

 

Not every subject has to be taught every year, except of course continuous instruction in the prevention of fires...:glare:

 

 

Agreed, and the PDE agrees too.

 

nothing in the PA law defines a credit,

 

 

Agreed. Nor who judges whether you've met graduation requirements.

 

Anyway, have you gotten an actually certified letter, or was his checklist just his opinion?

How crummy. :grouphug:

 

 

The OP said no cert letter, thank goodness.

 

1. The law does NOT specify how many samples to include per subject AND those samples are not what should determine 990 hours or 180 days (otherwise we'd have to submit an entire year's worth of material).

 

I would say "those samples ALONE", but yes, yes, yes.

 

I agree. And then add in how the new "homeschooling liaison" decided to change the PDE website to reflect her own interpretation of the home ed law, and it's quite the circus.

Yeah, I think some of the recent issues are directly attributable to this little situation with the liaison.

 

 

I really want to take a red pen to that site. I am *so* careful to be precise when I write about the law.

 

Well, that's my two cents. (Ok probably more than two...) So sorry you are dealing with this. It seems the key thing that needs to be communicated is 1) you have the right to do days OR hours, 2) the port should not be viewed as the sum total of all you've done during the year, and 3) the evaluator does a more comprehensive review, including an interview of the child, and if the evaluator has approved it, the district should only disapprove if they have serious concerns. Disapproval should be rare.

[NanceXToo]

Just wanted to share that I finally got a letter from the school district today!

 

Despite the fact that they'd sent me letters reminding me (among other things) that according to the "new" homeschooling law, my portfolio should include an "instructional activity log," they didn't give me a hard time about that at all!

 

I included no sort of activity log and only included the log of reading materials I include every year. I only gave about 3-6 samples per subject. I even included a cover letter for their info letting them know that for various reasons, we had decided to stretch my daughter's 6th grade year out over a two year period and that what we had submitted was for the first such year. So between all of that and a new superintendent this year, and all the b.s. with the PDE website, I didn't know what to expect.

 

But today I got that form letter- the one that says the portfolio has been reviewed and an appropriate education is being received and that I can pick up my portfolio at my convenience.

 

Breathing a sigh of relief, I'm home free for almost another year lol.

[justasque]

Breathing a sigh of relief, I'm home free for almost another year lol.

 

Woo hoo!

It all seems so random, doesn't it?