How do you add more STEM into classical education/TWTM

[regentrude]

I don't disagree with this, except that I think for a high school student and maybe middle school the actual school reading should generally be what I call close reading - slowly reading and considering all the levels you mention. But that has been kind of an assumption on my part, and when I consider the comments I sometimes hear from people I am wondering if maybe most people don't do it that way. I consider that close reading is actually quite a difficult skill, even for people who read well - I think sometimes people who read more slowly actually find it easier than those who really whip through books. I'm not sure most people do get a lot of practice at that kind of reading of large texts - I know public school kids here never have to try anything that focused.

 

I agree, close reading is an important skill, and no, most people never read like that. But I also think that not every book should be read like this.

One needs to be able to analyze a passage closely, look behind the scenes and see how a particular effect was achieved, how form and themes play a role in the story - but then to forget about this conscious process and just read and let the subconscious do its work. I am pretty sure that the great authors did not intend their novels to be dissected, but intended them to be just read, with the educated reader absorbing the different layers unconsciously.

I can think of no surer way to turn a student off literature than to require a microscopic analysis of every book he reads. I choose to illustrate literary techniques and analysis on a few selected works, and then let my student resume his reading, simply enhanced by the acquired knowledge. As it turns out, the more they read, the more insights they develop into the deeper layers of each book - but that insight may surface a few days after the reading, while the mind has been mulling over the book. I would be hesitant to force this insight by requiring my students to analyze all their literature while they read..

[corduroy]

If anyone with little kids is reading this far into the thread: do you have any tips for families with very young children who want to start out on the right science foot? I'd like to include some science in our read-aloud rotation, but I've found a lot of science books for the pre-K set pretty disappointing, a lot of "experiments" that (IMO) don't teach anything in particular.

 

I'm also wondering if it would be worthwhile to read BFSU this early. My own science and math foundations are... not superb. Not terrible, but not as solid as I'd like them to be. I want to be sure I don't tell my kid about math and science in ways that are either inaccurate or confusing!

[regentrude]

If anyone with little kids is reading this far into the thread: do you have any tips for families with very young children who want to start out on the right science foot? I'd like to include some science in our read-aloud rotation, but I've found a lot of science books for the pre-K set pretty disappointing, a lot of "experiments" that (IMO) don't teach anything in particular.

 

I don't have little kids, but this is what I did with my own kids when they were little: have them observe and ask questions. Nature study is an excellent way to introduce kids to science and scientific thinking. For pre-K and K, I would not even bother with any books, but simply take them outside and have them watch plants and animals and rocks and streams and let them ask why?why? why? and answer all their questions, or find the answer together. I would take them to nature centers and museums, let them watch child-appropriate documentaries. Let them collect and categorize rocks. (Categorize not according to any geological principles, but simply by color, hardness, degree of interest - it is a valuable skill). Collect leaves in autumn and match them to the tree. Press and keep them. Take pictures.

 

At this stage, I would want them to see that nature surrounds us all and that we are part of it, and that we can observe and analyze phenomena and find explanations. That's what science is all about. I would do everything possible to nurture their natural curiousity, with as much patience for repeated questions and messy "experiments" (digging in mud teaches about viscosity and rocks and wiggly worms....) as I can possibly muster.

 

Once they are a bit older, I'd get non-fiction books about whatever interests them. But I would stay away from any formal science curriculum with an elementary school age child.

[Bluegoat]

I agree, close reading is an important skill, and no, most people never read like that. But I also think that not every book should be read like this.

One needs to be able to analyze a passage closely, look behind the scenes and see how a particular effect was achieved, how form and themes play a role in the story - but then to forget about this conscious process and just read and let the subconscious do its work. I am pretty sure that the great authors did not intend their novels to be dissected, but intended them to be just read, with the educated reader absorbing the different layers unconsciously.

I can think of no surer way to turn a student off literature than to require a microscopic analysis of every book he reads. I choose to illustrate literary techniques and analysis on a few selected works, and then let my student resume his reading, simply enhanced by the acquired knowledge. As it turns out, the more they read, the more insights they develop into the deeper layers of each book - but that insight may surface a few days after the reading, while the mind has been mulling over the book. I would be hesitant to force this insight by requiring my students to analyze all their literature while they read..

 

 

Oh absolutly. My view is that we shouldn't try to cover too much literature with kids as part of formal school work, but that reading should be deep (and that often means reading through it once and then doing a close reading.) I would tend to pare down booklists significantly from what WTM recommends.

 

They should generally be reading lots of other good literature for personal reading, and they can read that however they like and I think have a fair bit of freedom to choose it as well.

[serendipitous journey]

I definitely agree; to me, even as a very "mathy" person, math is mentally more exhausting than most history readings - unless you read very dense original works of philosophical literature; I find those equally taxing, or more....

 

This brings up an interesting question though to me - shouldn't older children be doing close readings of just those kinds of texts for their school work? While individuals will have differing abilities, I would tend to think the literature and math selections would both be pretty challenging, and that kids would only be able to do so much per day of either.

 

I agree, esp. for the middle and high school years, but the independent reading Button does in Grammar will be with an eye to developing fluency & joy in reading, not close analysis per se. That said, I'm starting to introduce some more analytical programs that are age-appropriate this year -- CFGE's unit "Beyond Words" and also Great Book Junior materials.

 

We are doing some history that is very thought-intensive for Button; we're reading some of K12's History Odyssey, and Button is almost-7. So before I read, I write down the new words & ideas & names and go over them with him; and we pause to explain as we go. But other than that, at this age, our literature is mostly getting stuff into his ears.

 

Yes, I think it is always going to depend on the child. One child might be able to do an hour of challenging math without fatigue, but only only half an hour of Augustine, and another child would be different.

 

I rather get the impression though that many people think that reading literature and history is meant to be fairly painless. I find myself wondering if it is kind of a carryover from the idea that if the books are too difficult it will turn kids off reading?

 

For us, it's a matter of age. Books that are too difficult absolutely WILL turn Button off to reading -- he needs to learn that there is stuff to be gotten from books that is fun and worth having. Later we'll be teaching him that the payoff of reading great books is often related to the skill you employ in reading them...

 

I do not think so. I think one reason is that it is possible to read the same piece of literature on different levels. I can read a great book and just get the story, and that will be a fairly quick and painless process for a good reader. I can read the same book much more slowly and pay attention to the intricacies of the language, and I an read it again and take a lot of time analyzing the significance of the symbolism, the philosophical questions raised, the structure etc.

In math, you do not have these different levels for the same problem in most cases. If you have to solve a problem, you have to solve it, and that means completely until you reach an answer - there is no first or second or third layer or varying complexity. It is clear-cut.

 

I also find that for many people, the verbal skills are much better developed than their analytical math skills. ...

 

This is all so true for me! I am aware that my quantitative reading skills are not as well-developed as my reading-reading skills. DH is much more fluent numerically than I am; perhaps for him his speed at reading equations is closer to his speed at reading technical writing, but it is for sure slower than his reading of popular science or of novels (naturally); and he doesn't do tough philosophy any more :).

 

The emphasis on more challenging texts is one reason why I'm leaning toward AP style courses in high school. I look at the summer reading lists for 7th and 8th grade and see graphic novels

...just curious: what summer reading lists are these?

 

...

But it can be easier to read a book and not realize how much you aren't understanding, because you can read each of the individual words.

 

This is very true! It's one reason I'm working on Button's writing skills more-intensively at the moment; writing about something is a good way of noticing the gaps in one's understanding... everyone has given me food for thought. Y'all do make me feel like a bit of a Slacker Mom ... ahh, well, there is Room for Improvement always!

[serendipitous journey]

If anyone with little kids is reading this far into the thread: do you have any tips for families with very young children who want to start out on the right science foot? I'd like to include some science in our read-aloud rotation, but I've found a lot of science books for the pre-K set pretty disappointing, a lot of "experiments" that (IMO) don't teach anything in particular.

 

I'm also wondering if it would be worthwhile to read BFSU this early. My own science and math foundations are... not superb. Not terrible, but not as solid as I'd like them to be. I want to be sure I don't tell my kid about math and science in ways that are either inaccurate or confusing!

 

This is my quick'n dirty list, ranked in terms of ease of use:

 

1. Bite-sized Science: I can't recommend this highly enough. So easy to use, you can just flip through and pick stuff, and really what you want for building a science intuition and sense for causality that Regentrude talks about. It's the kind of thing trained scientists do naturally with their littles (a bit more structured, but the gist is the same I found).

 

2. Schlessinger Library Videos: the "... for Children" which are good for primary/Grammar children. They are a bit old-school and not fancy, but we liked them usually and found them at our library. Or you could do Magic School Bus but Button can't tolerate the interpersonal tensions btw. the children. !!! The Schlessinger titles include experiments that are simple, fun, and memorable. Easily a full science curriculum in terms of content, you could add reading/narration/writing.

 

-- TOPS units. They fall here in terms of difficulty, esp. if you also order the kits to make things easy on yourself, but we haven't actually used them so they don't get a number :). Nearly everyone says to start with the electricity one.

 

3. Sandbox Scientist. Fabulous. Variable levels of work involved for the different "kits".

 

 

4. GEMS units. Rather a lot of work, excellent programs. String them together for a good science curriculum; they come with suggested literature. If you get hooked on these the cost adds up; try used at Amazon.

 

HTH.

 

ETA: BFSU is a fine choice. It bugs me personally; here's why. But lots of folks love it and see good results.

Edited August 14, 2012 by serendipitous journey

[kalanamak]

If anyone with little kids is reading this far into the thread: do you have any tips for families with very young children who want to start out on the right science foot? I'd like to include some science in our read-aloud rotation, but I've found a lot of science books for the pre-K set pretty disappointing, a lot of "experiments" that (IMO) don't teach anything in particular.

 

 

I think wonder and fun are very important in pre-K. Much more important than mitochondria. I used Mudpies to Magnets and Everybody Has a Body, visits to zoos and aquarium, starting a rock collection, the Life of series (Life of Birds, Life in the Undergrowth, Trials of Life, Life in Cold Blood). The early, good, Magic School Bus (Ocean, center of the earth, a trip throug the body) is fun. There is an old film Hemo the Magnificent, which kids LOVE. Amazon has it. My son also liked Unchained Goddess (the weather).

 

Start a garden, get a Painted Lady kit.

 

But very important, to me, was for me to learn the words that make up various fields and USE them in conversation.

"Look how pretty green this leaf is. Do you know why plants are green?"

"Because they like it?"

"Well, perhaps they do, but they are green because that color helps them absorb the energy of the sun to make food. It's call photosynthesis. Can you say that?" ETc.

 

Kiddo gets a zap on the doorknob after walking across the room? Whip out a balloon, blow it up and do the rub on hair trick and watch it cling to the wall. Folding laundry? Kiddo loved making Papa's (synthetic) undies make the cotton threads of rags defy gravity. Discuss charges and gravity.

 

In the preschool age I am convinced that people using the words in relation to physical events is 1000x more important than a curriculum.

 

A hint about your foundation. If you get texts for 10-13 year olds, e.g. CPO biology, and read it yourself, you can click right through the easy reading and get the concepts and vocab you need to have in your mind to do the kind of things I mention above.

 

Sally Walker's books e.g. Energy, Pulleys, Inclined Planes, use everyday things with basic nomenclature to help you "see" such things in day to day life you can then point out.

 

HTH

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Referring to the reading lists put out by out local library. The list from the school district is a little better, which some classics, but many readings still leave me wondering. Artemis Fowl and The Hunger Games, which are enjoyable books, indeed, but are books that my rising 5th grader is reading.

 

I understand that the lists are varied because there are many different reading levels and even English language levels. But that is why I tend to look more toward the summer reading lists from the local AP classes for comparison.

[8filltheheart]

If anyone with little kids is reading this far into the thread: do you have any tips for families with very young children who want to start out on the right science foot? I'd like to include some science in our read-aloud rotation, but I've found a lot of science books for the pre-K set pretty disappointing, a lot of "experiments" that (IMO) don't teach anything in particular.

 

I'm also wondering if it would be worthwhile to read BFSU this early. My own science and math foundations are... not superb. Not terrible, but not as solid as I'd like them to be. I want to be sure I don't tell my kid about math and science in ways that are either inaccurate or confusing!

 

I also avoid elementary science curriculum in favor of whole books.

 

For really young kids like yours, picture book stories about nature/animals etc are just fun read alouds. You can find interesting topics presented on their level that they will enjoy, books like Snowflake Bentley http://www.amazon.com/Snowflake-Bentley-Caldecott-Medal-Book/dp/0395861624

 

If you explore the different parts of this website, you'll see some engaging ways to explore topics w/o textbooks: http://charlottemason.tripod.com/newsletter.html

[lewelma]

For younger kids, I agree completely with the previous posters.

 

1) First you need to read, read, read books (and watch some good documentaries). You don't need a curriculum in elementary school.

 

Once they are a bit older, I'd get non-fiction books about whatever interests them. But I would stay away from any formal science curriculum with an elementary school age child.

 

In the preschool age [i would extend this to elementary] I am convinced that people using the words in relation to physical events is 1000x more important than a curriculum.

 

I also avoid elementary science curriculum in favor of whole books.

 

I personally organize my library reading in a method suggested by the WTM. Each year I choose a different science, and each term a different topic. (last year was Earth/space Science: with terms on Astronomy, Geology, Oceanography, and Meterology.) Then, we just read. I read to them, they read to me, they read independently. I did this up to 6th grade; this year my 7th grader is doing high school chemistry, so he has a textbook. The only exception I have found to avoiding curriculum in elementary/early middle school is elementary chemistry. I have yet to find a library book that covers basic elemental structure and bonding, so I use a short curriculum along with library books on chemistry. I also do NOT require a write up for anything we read unless my child wants to.

 

2) Then, you want to develop curiosity: asking questions and finding answers. Do this casually, in every day life.

 

have them observe and ask questions. ...simply take them outside and have them watch plants and animals and rocks and streams and let them ask why?why? why? and answer all their questions, or find the answer together.... I would do everything possible to nurture their natural curiousity

Start a garden, get a Painted Lady kit.

Kiddo gets a zap on the doorknob after walking across the room? Whip out a balloon, blow it up and do the rub on hair trick and watch it cling to the wall. Folding laundry? Kiddo loved making Papa's (synthetic) undies make the cotton threads of rags defy gravity. Discuss charges and gravity.

building a science intuition and sense for causality

 

I think it is a habit that you can develop in a similar way that I have worked hard to develop a "literary" attitude. I had to learn that I needed to celebrate good words my kids found in literature, and that I needed to savour poems during tea time with my kids. You need to do the same thing in science. Brush up on middle school level science and just bring it up when you see it in action in the kids life.

 

Then, go outside. Look up and look down. Ask questions. Why are there so many earthworms in this soil but not it that soil. How does the rain water flow down the steps? Where does the moss grow on those steps? Do squirrels really like acorns? or would they eat walnuts if I put some out? (my sister won the Virginia Academy of Science 1st prize for that one!) But you don't have to do a big project. You just have to ask "Why?" and then try to answer your questions. In elementary school, you don't have to document it, you don't have to graph it, you just need to explore the world around you.

 

But very important, to me, was for me to learn the words that make up various fields and USE them in conversation.

 

This suggestion I like a lot. And I think I might do some reading on physics for next year, so I can do it justice.

 

HTH,

 

Ruth in NZ

Edited August 15, 2012 by lewelma

[StephanieZ]

We dropped Latin a few years ago. We kept Spanish. The kids are each well on their way to fluency well before high school graduation, so I feel this was a good trade off and will meet the need/expectation for a foreign language w/o the additional time crunch of Latin.

 

(And, we do loads of music, so time savings was/is critical. That was my original justification for dropping Latin.)

 

I've always emphasized math b/c I love it, and b/c I think it is really important. In early years, we did "double" math each day, doing Singapore and Miquon as separate subjects, although my young kids never spent more than 30-40 min/day on avg on math even with that. Now they still just spend about an hour a day, but it is really good quality stuff, and I teach it carefully, and they are on a different math-universe than most people, let alone kids.

 

We've also done math pretty much year round, with some review/enrichment when we are on break at the beach or whatever, very rarely stopping altoghether for more than a couple weeks or so. I think this makes it easy to progress rapidly and with ease.

 

We choose math curricula carefully, investing time and money into the best possible curricula.

 

For science, we did double science for a couple years in middle school age doing Story of Science (with lab and discussion group) as one course, with a traditional lab based science as the other. I don't have time for that now with my older dc b/c they do so much music, but I'll likely do it again with my younger for 5th-8th grades.

 

We also invest carefully in science, taking the time, $, and effort to make each year a quality lab science program. If I could not adequately prepare to teach it, I would put them in classes that could do that. (I can and do do it myself b/c I love it.) I happen to be a scientist, so this is relatively easy for me. We spend $$$ on supplies, etc, for good lab experiences. Probably close to $900-$1000 for this year's biology course so far (who is counting?), but over half that is a permanent investment (microscope, labware, etc), so will get used by 2 dc this year and one more in a few years, plus can be reused for AP Bio in a few more years.

 

We probably de-emphasize history. We do a full course each year, but not as deep and wide as we could do it. This year we are using Oak Meadow for my 8th & 10th, and this seems easy and light compared to what I've expected from the other years. I'll likely use it again . . .

 

I would never sacrifice English. We do a lot of writing and reading, etc, etc . . . as I think EVERY citizen needs to be an excellent communicator, and the joys of life would be dulled without great literature.

 

I never assign busy work. Every assignment has a purpose. When I realized that ds12 had mastered spelling better than most highly educated adults and was a natural speller, I let him skip the last SWO book even though I am a box-checker by nature.

 

I choose curricula that are as time efficient and nutrient-dense as possible, to borrow a nutrition concept. No empty calories. :)

 

We work hard. A lot. Many hours. All of us. Me preparing and helping. Them studying. Dh helping when he is home. We haven't had "just mornings"' school since 2nd grade . . .

[Saille]

I've been reading and gleaning from this blog. Beth is here on the boards, hopefully she'll post to this thread, too. She's done all the "legwork" on tracking down the best resources and ideas, so I'm just tagging along. ;)

 

Ooh, I've been drooling over those EiE books for forever.

[kubiac]

This is my quick'n dirty list, ranked in terms of ease of use:

 

1. Bite-sized Science: I can't recommend this highly enough. So easy to use, you can just flip through and pick stuff, and really what you want for building a science intuition and sense for causality that Regentrude talks about. It's the kind of thing trained scientists do naturally with their littles (a bit more structured, but the gist is the same I found).

 

2. Schlessinger Library Videos: the "... for Children" which are good for primary/Grammar children. They are a bit old-school and not fancy, but we liked them usually and found them at our library. Or you could do Magic School Bus but Button can't tolerate the interpersonal tensions btw. the children. !!! The Schlessinger titles include experiments that are simple, fun, and memorable. Easily a full science curriculum in terms of content, you could add reading/narration/writing.

 

-- TOPS units. They fall here in terms of difficulty, esp. if you also order the kits to make things easy on yourself, but we haven't actually used them so they don't get a number :). Nearly everyone says to start with the electricity one.

 

3. Sandbox Scientist. Fabulous. Variable levels of work involved for the different "kits".

 

 

4. GEMS units. Rather a lot of work, excellent programs. String them together for a good science curriculum; they come with suggested literature. If you get hooked on these the cost adds up; try used at Amazon.

 

HTH.

 

ETA: BFSU is a fine choice. It bugs me personally; here's why. But lots of folks love it and see good results.

 

In case you haven't been told this yet today: You are very, very, very pretty.

 

{Thank you for this list!!}

 

Each year I choose a different science, and each term a different topic. (last year was Earth/space Science: with terms on Astronomy, Geology, Oceanography, and Meterology.) Then, we just read.

 

lewelma, I don't want to impose, but if you ever have the time or inclination, would you mind sharing your term subtopics for the various years? I'd love to see how you break it up!

Edited August 18, 2012 by kubiac

[ZeldaRules]

Here is my plan for the year...

 

1. Math takes at least an hour (usually 90 minutes - Saxon) every day we have school at home.

2. Beast academy, Life of Fred, real life math...we recently had a flood, I think he gets perimeter and area now that he had to measure and figure out what we needed. Perimeter is baseboard, area is carpet....

3. Robotics - 2nd year

4. The kid plays with Legos, erector sets, Knex, Lincoln logs and builds all sorts of things.

 

Science

1. Weekly co-op class

2. Monthly class at Museum of Natural Science- 3rd year of this, last year he had a monthly 3-hour class at the Observatory as well as the monthly HMNS class. What better way to learn about astronomy than to go to an observatory. They even got to play out mission control in a real set up of a mission control area. It was so neat. They did some really cool stuff in that class.

3. Weekly get together with another homeschool fam and we just do hands on experiments

4. Elemental Chemistry once or twice a week-TWTM recommends Chemistry for 3rd grade.

5. Nature journal book... Hope to do weekly. It's hard living in a city vs. country. It was easier to do CM living on 5 acres

6. Child led science, what interests him at the moment, let's figure it out.

7. Take apart broken electronics...computer got ruined in flood

8. Watch documentaries and BrainPop videos

 

I have not felt he has lacked in science or math.

Edited August 15, 2012 by vfnelson2

[Beth in SW WA]

Great question! I'd love to hear from people who actually know how to make this happen (Hint: that wouldn't be me, LOL). I've been reading and gleaning from this blog. Beth is here on the boards, hopefully she'll post to this thread, too. She's done all the "legwork" on tracking down the best resources and ideas, so I'm just tagging along. ;)

 

:)

 

We're not doing classical/TWTM. We are heavy STEM-focussed with a strong emphasis on music. We are doing Mandarin since my dds are Chinese. Latin/Greek roots only. Greek mythology is big here. We put a strong emphasis on quality lit & writing materials/instruction.

 

STEM is expensive. Every penny is well spent on fantastic math & science tutors/classes. I am not a fan of co-ops for stem. I want the best instructors.

 

More details on what we use below in siggy.

 

Fwiw, my olders did classical in middle school. I wish we did more STEM.

[kalanamak]

 

This film is found on Attenborough in Paradise, and has a fascinating section on Easter Island, and what happened to the civilization. The Thor Heyerdal footage was especially interesting, and illuminated how one person, with courage and curiosity, could dare to do so much. This film led to far ranging conversation .. as far as WHY there were onion-shaped caps on the towers in St. Petersburg: was it all style, or did it have something to do with the snow?

 

Here is what I was trying to send you:

I found Easter Island vid on Youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq7XE0S-iLQ

 

My son loves this one the best, just before A Blank on the Map.

 

You could try googling each of the titles I listed in the previous PM to see if you can find them online.

[HappyGrace]

Thanks, Kalanamak! I will clean out inbox. And definitely search like you mentioned, thank you!

[besroma]

:bigear: