Ds13 home from camp, heartbreak and ques

[swellmomma]

I picked up ds13 from bible camp today. He had a great week over all. Has a lovely bruise on his cheek from playing mission impossible until 2 am Thursday night (he thinks it is from when he dove over a bush and landed on another boy). Had pretty much nothing but good things to say but 2 parts caught me off guard. 1 broke my heart the other had me go :001_huh:

 

Apparently at some point during the week he asked his cabin counsellor to pray for him. He told the counsellor that his dad had not seen him for 10 years and started seeing him a couple months ago (technically it was a year agom but inconsistently) and now wants to make him live there away from his mom. He told counsellor he didn't want to live with his dad and was scared his dad would make him go there just to hurt his mom, not because he really wants him. Counsellor and him prayed together, and counsellor prayed over him about this a few more times over the week. Ds told me that they talked about it again later in the week and he thinks he is going to be able to tell his dad no, he will not live there. That he likes seeing him but this is his home. Ds told me he felt much better after praying about it with counsellor.

 

The part that had me go :001_huh: was when he told me he wants to be in the Lambs book of life. I had never heard of this before, but he was told it is in the bible and is the book that lists all those that will go to heaven on judgement day. So I asked him what he has to do to get into this book. He says ask Jesus into his heart. So I say "oh did you do that at camp" he said, "no I want to pray about it more, but now I am scared I am going to die and go to hell before I decide to ask him in"

 

So my question is what the heck do I say to him on that? It is 100% his choice if he wants to accept Christ. I can not and will not manipulate him into doing so and feel the camp was doing so with the kids. Of the ones at camp that had not yet accepted Christ only 1 did at camp, so they certainly were not doing daily alter calls. Apparently only 1 sermon all week dealt with this. But it made a big impact on ds. I told ds that I was here to pray with him about it if he wanted me to, but not to make the choice out of fear of death. Not sure if there is more I should be saying to him? Has anyone else heard of this book of judgement being called the lambs book of life?

[lotsofpumpkins]

Rev 21:27

And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

Rev 20:15 also refers to this book. It is also referred to in the Psalms.

 

So, yes, it is a very real book.

 

The camp doesn't sound manipulative; you said they only had one sermon devoted to this. It does sound like they had a genuine desire to share Christ with the campers. If God is calling your ds to become one of His children, do not discourage him. See if he wants to talk to a pastor about this.

[Katy]

It's from Revelation 13:8.

 

If I were you, I would tell him if he wants to be in the book of life, he just needs to ask God. Then I would walk him through the sinners prayer if he wanted to, with no pressure. It could very well be that he just doesn't know how, and he's asking for your help. That was what was happening with my father. I just had to lead him through the prayer because he didn't know how.

 

Whether he wants to now or he wants to just consider it, I would take him to a christian book store, and let him look through the bibles, and have him pick out the one that's calling to him. Have him start reading in the book of John, then through the rest of the new testament. That will teach him more about Christianity than he will learn in hundreds of sermons.

[swellmomma]

It's from Revelation 13:8.

 

If I were you, I would tell him if he wants to be in the book of life, he just needs to ask God. Then I would walk him through the sinners prayer if he wanted to, with no pressure. It could very well be that he just doesn't know how, and he's asking for your help. That was what was happening with my father. I just had to lead him through the prayer because he didn't know how.

 

Whether he wants to now or he wants to just consider it, I would take him to a christian book store, and let him look through the bibles, and have him pick out the one that's calling to him. Have him start reading in the book of John, then through the rest of the new testament. That will teach him more about Christianity than he will learn in hundreds of sermons.

 

Thanks, He does own a bible and knows the book of John between hearing it at church over the years and we watched the play Love according to John which helped make it stick with him more. It would be a good starting place for him.

 

Good idea about offering to do the sinner's prayer with him. I offered to pray with him but wasn't specific.

 

 

 

Rev 21:27

And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

Rev 20:15 also refers to this book. It is also referred to in the Psalms.

 

So, yes, it is a very real book.

 

The camp doesn't sound manipulative; you said they only had one sermon devoted to this. It does sound like they had a genuine desire to share Christ with the campers. If God is calling your ds to become one of His children, do not discourage him. See if he wants to talk to a pastor about this.

 

Yes it was just one sermon, I just felt that it was manipulative to be telling kids if they don't make this choice they were going to burn in hell (well in ds's words they were told they would be thrown into the fiery pits of hell to burn for all eternity). YEs it is the basic belief of most christians that if you do not go go heaven you are sent to hell, but I do not think a camp of 11-14 yr olds should be told that in quite that way. Especially when it is not like they can go home afterwards and talk with their families. I would never discourage my son to make that choice. In fact I want him to, I have made the same choice and was baptized after doing so. I just don't believe we should manipulate our children into making that choice out of fear of spending eternity in hell. It should be made out of a desire to be closer to Him out of love. Love and fear can not share the same space imo.

 

I also was not saying it was not a real book. I simply said I have never heard of it before and was taken aback by ds calling it that.

 

Thanks for the feedback though. I will have to look up the verses mentioned.

[swellmomma]

I would probably reaffirm that God knows that your DS is searching and trying to decide, and not to rush it or make the decision out of anything but a desire to follow Christ/God. Or make no decision at all ;)

 

As far as the reference to the Lamb's Book of Life, maybe one of the teachers referred to it that way and it stuck with him? It's not a common way of saying that, but not wrong :)

 

I like that, I will tell him that. That God knows he is searching and trying to decide. That He would not punish him for wanting to learn more and pray first.

[Katy]

Thanks, He does own a bible and knows the book of John between hearing it at church over the years and we watched the play Love according to John which helped make it stick with him more. It would be a good starting place for him.

 

Good idea about offering to do the sinner's prayer with him. I offered to pray with him but wasn't specific.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes it was just one sermon, I just felt that it was manipulative to be telling kids if they don't make this choice they were going to burn in hell (well in ds's words they were told they would be thrown into the fiery pits of hell to burn for all eternity). YEs it is the basic belief of most christians that if you do not go go heaven you are sent to hell, but I do not think a camp of 11-14 yr olds should be told that in quite that way. Especially when it is not like they can go home afterwards and talk with their families. I would never discourage my son to make that choice. In fact I want him to, I have made the same choice and was baptized after doing so. I just don't believe we should manipulate our children into making that choice out of fear of spending eternity in hell. It should be made out of a desire to be closer to Him out of love. Love and fear can not share the same space imo.

 

I also was not saying it was not a real book. I simply said I have never heard of it before and was taken aback by ds calling it that.

 

Thanks for the feedback though. I will have to look up the verses mentioned.

 

Here's "Perfect love casts out fear" http://bible.cc/1_john/4-18.htm

 

Here's verses about the Lamb's book of life: http://www.openbible.info/topics/lambs_book_of_life

[mom2samlibby]

Yes it was just one sermon, I just felt that it was manipulative to be telling kids if they don't make this choice they were going to burn in hell (well in ds's words they were told they would be thrown into the fiery pits of hell to burn for all eternity). YEs it is the basic belief of most christians that if you do not go go heaven you are sent to hell, but I do not think a camp of 11-14 yr olds should be told that in quite that way. Especially when it is not like they can go home afterwards and talk with their families. I would never discourage my son to make that choice. In fact I want him to, I have made the same choice and was baptized after doing so. I just don't believe we should manipulate our children into making that choice out of fear of spending eternity in hell. It should be made out of a desire to be closer to Him out of love. Love and fear can not share the same space imo.

 

I also was not saying it was not a real book. I simply said I have never heard of it before and was taken aback by ds calling it that.

 

Thanks for the feedback though. I will have to look up the verses mentioned.

 

I don't see it as manipulative. I think teens can and need to be told what will happen if they haven't accepted Christ as their savior. It sounds like your son didn't choose at that time to accept, so he did not make a decision based on fear.

 

If only one child accepted Christ while at camp they did not manipulate the kids into making that decision.

[Cindyg]

Yes it was just one sermon, I just felt that it was manipulative to be telling kids if they don't make this choice they were going to burn in hell (well in ds's words they were told they would be thrown into the fiery pits of hell to burn for all eternity).

 

My son calls this day of camp "Hell day." Yes, the "Hell day" sermon can be a bit manipulative and scary. I often wish they wouldn't present this stuff to the younger kids.

 

Honestly, I can still remember my 7th grade Sunday school teacher teaching us about the Rapture in great, terrifying detail.

 

Yes, I do believe in Hell and the Rapture, but there are many other reasons to accept Christ. And there are other frightening/adult/gruesome topics in the Bible that we don't share with children.

[swellmomma]

My son calls this day of camp "Hell day." Yes, the "Hell day" sermon can be a bit manipulative and scary. I often wish they wouldn't present this stuff to the younger kids.

 

Honestly, I can still remember my 7th grade Sunday school teacher teaching us about the Rapture in great, terrifying detail.

 

Yes, I do believe in Hell and the Rapture, but there are many other reasons to accept Christ. And there are other frightening/adult/gruesome topics in the Bible that we don't share with children.

 

Exactly!

[ThisIsTheDay]

I don't see it as manipulative. I think teens can and need to be told what will happen if they haven't accepted Christ as their savior. It sounds like your son didn't choose at that time to accept, so he did not make a decision based on fear.

 

If only one child accepted Christ while at camp they did not manipulate the kids into making that decision.

 

:iagree: I think that daily alter calls can make kids--anyone!--feel pressure to go forward; I would be thankful they did not do this. I am familiar with the teaching of the "Lamb's Book of Life," although prior to being a Christian, I understood it only in the terms of Judaism (I used to work for Jewish attorneys). I later learned more detail through my conservative non-denom Christian church.

 

If the sermon had a big impact on your ds, perhaps it's God calling out to his heart. God the Father will never leave him, will never be inconsistent, and will never convince him to do something to hurt someone else. :001_smile:

 

I know your ds has gone through a lot over the years. I'm praying for him.

[DawnM]

You just brought back memories of our boarding school showing all of the Thief in the Night movies! One was called A Distant Thunder and I don't remember the 3rd.

 

I can't tell you how funny these are to watch 30 years later with the 70s looking styles and the "Far out man" comments! :lol:

 

It is interesting to me that Christian churches shift their focus and get on certain topics at certain times. The rapture was a huge deal in the 70s and early 80s and now we rarely hear about it.

 

As for camp, this doesn't surprise me at all that they used the main tenant of the Christian faith in an effort to bring kids to Christ if it is Bible camp.

 

Dawn

 

My son calls this day of camp "Hell day." Yes, the "Hell day" sermon can be a bit manipulative and scary. I often wish they wouldn't present this stuff to the younger kids.

 

Honestly, I can still remember my 7th grade Sunday school teacher teaching us about the Rapture in great, terrifying detail.

 

Yes, I do believe in Hell and the Rapture, but there are many other reasons to accept Christ. And there are other frightening/adult/gruesome topics in the Bible that we don't share with children.

[ktgrok]

And this is why I am glad we are in a denomination that has infant baptism, and where you grow up knowing you are part of God's family. There is never a moment when Jesus isn't a part of your life, so no need for this one moment to ask him into your life. He is already there.

 

That said...why is he hesitant? If he goes to church, loves God, prays, etc...what is he worried about? It sounds like Jesus is a part of his life already....and that he is already in the Book.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[lisamarie]

I don't see it as manipulative. I think teens can and need to be told what will happen if they haven't accepted Christ as their savior. It sounds like your son didn't choose at that time to accept, so he did not make a decision based on fear.

 

If the sermon had a big impact on your ds, perhaps it's God calling out to his heart.

 

:iagree: To me it sounds like your ds is feeling that tug in his heart to ask Jesus into his heart. Your role is critical right now if this is something that you want to see happen. If you brush it off, he'll think the camp was wrong and that he doesn't need to go any further with his thoughts. If you act angry about it, he'll almost definitely reject it. If you, on the other hand, build off of the seed camp planted in his heart and tell him about the sinner's prayer, the 4 steps to salvation, and offer to pray with him when he is ready, he will be a lot more likely to come back and ask you to do that with him.

 

My DS is leaving for church camp this afternoon. They have a prayer meeting one night where they pray over the kids to receive either the holy spirit or one of his gifts (we're charismatic), and my DH and I were prepping DS for this last week. I was almost angry with DH for acting so laid back about it telling DS that it's his choice what he does, that we can't make him do anything. That if he wants to be prayed over to be baptized in the holy spirit, he can. If he doesn't, no big deal. I wanted to tell DS that of course he will get prayed over for the baptism in the holy spirit, of course he will ask Jesus into his heart (which he hasn't done to my knowledge), but DH said no. We can't push it or DS might later reject it saying we'd forced it on him. It has to be his choice and in his time. I WISH and PRAY that my DS would come home with questions like your DS has. To see him open to it, ready to take that step. I can see that he's not ready barring God speaking to his heart this week at camp. I'm not very good and giving up control--I'd much rather sit on DS until he agrees to say the sinners prayer.:lol:

[tntgoodwin]

While I disagree with the idea of the Sinner's Prayer

(I agree with David Platt here: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2012/juneweb-only/david-platt-sinners-prayer.html), it sounds to me as if your son heard a clear presentation of the Gospel, and now is making a decision to turn his life whole-heartedly over to Christ or not.

 

I do believe 11-14 year olds are certainly old enough to hear the truth of God's love and His justice.

Consider that his peers are, in some places, making babies, watching PG-13 and R - rated movies, waging war, doing drugs, etc. An average child his age ought to be able to handle the truth about Heaven and Hell, IMO. There isn't anything in the Bible that I would shield a child from at that age.

 

You are correct, again- in my opinion-, that this is a decision best not to be made out of fear, but out of love for God.

[LittleIzumi]

:grouphug: I might tell him that God wants willing servants, not terrified-into-asking-for-something servants. God knows he's pondering it in his heart now, and I'm sure that pleases Him. God is a God of love, not just fear. :grouphug:

[Paintedlady]

Yes, I do believe in Hell and the Rapture, but there are many other reasons to accept Christ. And there are other frightening/adult/gruesome topics in the Bible that we don't share with children.

 

I might agree with you if we were talking about 5 year olds, but middle school aged kids need to hear this and be fully informed. They're not too young.

[swellmomma]

Update: I was about to post this on FB and saw this thread had been pulled back up so will update here first.

 

Since posting I have been talking with and praying with ds. I mentioned the sinner's prayer and he said that a boy in his cabin told them when he first asked Christ into his heart he said the sinner's prayer and he still says it everyday so he doesn't forget.

 

Anyway ds asked me to look it up and print it off for him. SO I did the other night and gave it to him. He glanced at it and then put it aside for the last couple days. We kept talking and praying but I was still leaving it up to him.

 

Well this morning he came to me with that print out and asked if I would pray it with him! Of course I did. He says he is going to pin it up above his bed so he can read it often like that other boy at camp so he doesn't forget that he has promised to follow God.

 

So today we are celebrating his salvation!

[ThisIsTheDay]

So today we are celebrating his salvation!

 

:grouphug::party::party:

[Cindyg]

Wow. What a happy ending to this thread!!

[SFM]

 

So today we are celebrating his salvation!

 

 

:party::party:

 

Praise the Lord!

[besroma]

Wow. What a happy ending to this thread!!

 

:iagree:

[happyhomemaker]

That is wonderful! Praise the Lord!!

:party:

[vonfirmath]

Yes, I do believe in Hell and the Rapture, but there are many other reasons to accept Christ. And there are other frightening/adult/gruesome topics in the Bible that we don't share with children.

 

Like what?

David's adultery? Learned about it before I was 10.

 

The fellow who sacrificed his daughter because of a foolish promise? I already knew that one too by age 11.

 

My almost 5- year old son knows about the king who wanted to cut a baby in half. (He doesn't completely understand it. But he has heard the story and it made enough of an impression that we discussed it.)

 

The guy who cut up a woman and sent the pieces to all the tribes?

The children murdered and offered to idols?

The horrible crucifixion of our Lord and Savior?

 

Honestly, I knew all of these stories by the age 11-14 ages. I don't think they are stories to hide from children. Before that I want the kids reading the Bible for themselves, which means they are going to come upon these stories for themselves. How much better to have not hidden them before that?

 

As for "many other reasons to accept Christ" -- I believe there are many reasons to accept Christ and that different people will be drawn to different parts. I was drawn to Christ because of the Rapture. I didn't want to be left alone on Earth when Jesus came back. I would absolutely NOT gloss over this part of the Bible because its the "wrong" way to come to Christ; it is what drew me. (in fact, the "last straw" for me was the Thief in the Night movies mentioned earlier in this thread with hilarity)

Edited August 2, 2012 by vonfirmath