Looking back, what do you think is most important for elementary?

[profmom]

I have 10th & 8th graders and also a 2nd grader, so I'm pondering this question myself. I'm especially trying to make a decision about whether or not to join Classical Conversations for my 2nd grader. So, I guess I really have two questions -- and you're free to answer only one or both!

 

1.) Looking back with the perspective you have now, what do you think is most important for the elementary years?

 

 

2.) Want to help me decide whether or not to join Classical Conversations (Foundations) again this year? If so, keep reading and I'll try to be concise!

 

CC Pros: I really like the group, and I'd love for my dd to spend time with the girls who would be in her class! (This is the biggest draw for me.) I like the weekly presentations, and I think memory work and building the memory muscle is valuable.

 

Cons: With my 2nd grader in mind, I dislike the particular memory work for cycle 1. While I don't doubt that 2nd graders can memorize it, I wonder if it's ideal at that age, or if it would be better suited to 4th - 6th grades (when there would be more understanding to go with it). I've done CC with a 6th grader and a 1st grader and I much preferred it with the older child who understood what he was memorizing. (But, I also understand that CC's philosophy is that it's great to memorize and that context and understanding are irrelevant because they'll eventually learn the material -- in middle school & high school.)

 

I was talking to the director about it, and she said she has come to "trust the method" -- the focus on memorization and not worrying about context or adding history or science curricula. (For younger ones, read aloud, math, phonics, Essentials when they're old enough, and CC memory work.)

 

I, on the other hand, am not sure I trust the method. When I consider my older kids, I wish that I had read aloud more (which I could do either way, of course), studied more science, had even more fun with history, and memorized more poetry. With an 8th grader who still needs input and help with study skills and the rest of what I'd do with my 2nd grader, I'm not sure I have time to do those things and add CC -- it feels like I have to choose.

 

If we don't do CC, we would likely get together with a couple of families for lapbooks, history & maybe science activities, occasional field trips, and some presentations. (I've talked to two friends who are interested.) On our own, I think I would like to do Linguistic Development Through Poetry, along with some history and science facts from our curricula, maybe the new CC timeline at half pace or slower. If I'm going to do memory work already, should I just do it with CC -- and get over the fact that it's impossible to add context to everything??

 

Anyway...:D I've been torn thinking about it. I'm :bigear: for answers to one or both of the above questions and any related ramblings! :)

Edited July 14, 2012 by profmom

[PeterPan]

Looking back, I'd have to say the most important thing was fostering a positive attitude about school work and work habits.

 

No, it doesn't sound like CC meets any goals for you. You said so yourself: it's a nice thing that would keep you from having time to do the stuff you really want to do and now know HOW to do on your own because you've btdt.

[Tullia]

My priorities for the elementary years:

 

1. Foster a sense of self-discipline and taking responsibility for one's actions and quality of work.

2. Allow plenty of time for art, music, and nature study.

3. Establish a solid foundation in a foreign language, English language arts, and math.

 

I think you've already answered your question about CC. ;) Sounds like you have good alternatives. My tips for extracurricular activities:

 

1. They must complement your goals; avoid any outside commitments that work against your goals no matter how attractive they might be otherwise.

2. Be prepared to re-evaluate on a yearly basis. My son benefited from an academically focused co-op beginning in late middle school; before that he did well in a less formal but somewhat structured group.

[Barbara H]

Looking back, I'd have to say the most important thing was fostering a positive attitude about school work and work habits.

.

 

Yes, that. Love of learning and the ability to persist and work through frustrations.

[PeterPan]

...and the ability to persist and work through frustrations.

 

Man, if we had that we'd be golden. :lol: Some kids just don't have it, sigh. Sometimes I've connived and created projects that required her persist. Doesn't usually seem to help. I must not have persisted long enough at them. :D

[Brenda in MA]

I would say that for elementary, a focus on phonics, math, and reading are most critical. If you can get a head start on Foreign Language, that is a plus. Science, History, Music, and Art are important, mostly to help give the dc background and a sense of wonder and curiosity for their world. Lots of reading aloud is wonderful, too.

 

Neither of my dc remember the specifics that we studied in history in early elementary. They both enjoyed learning at the time, but when we revisited things in middle school, I found they hadn't remembered a huge amount.

 

The phonics memory work we did with FLL and the focus on learning grammar in elementary school have paid off in huge ways once they reached high school. I feel like they spent most of elementary learning phonics, grammar, and spelling. Then in middle school, they really developed their writing and solidified the grammar. In high school, their analysis and synthesis skills have kicked in, and I can finally see all the knowledge I poured into them in elementary/middle school come screaming out in so many new ways.

 

Now that I've seen it with my own kids, I can really appreciate the different stages described in TWTM (grammar, logic, rhetoric). Just the other day, I was cleaning out some bins, and I found the preposition list from FLL. At 16 yo, my son still knows that list by heart, and when he had finished reciting it, he said that knowing that list has come in handy many times. I'm pretty sure he didn't really understand what a preposition was when he learned the list, but he certainly does now.

 

I don't know anything about CC and whether you should join or not. Even without a program like CC, you can still have your 2nd grader do some memory work and such.

 

I also agree with the others who said it's important to teach your elementary students responsibility for their work and the ability to work hard to master something that is frustrating.

 

Best wishes in finding the right course for your child,

Brenda

[lllll]

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Edited July 18, 2012 by ksva

[Mommyfaithe]

Reading, writing, math and building their endurance to study whatever they need/want to study. Overcoming the frustration point and continuing to move forward is the hardest part.

[Kathie in VA]

I would say phonics/ reading is most important. Then comes math. Falling behind in math throws off what they can take for science in high school.. I also agree with learning grammar while young. FLL was great for my kids.

[profmom]

Thanks for the advice, everyone!

 

 

No, it doesn't sound like CC meets any goals for you. You said so yourself: it's a nice thing that would keep you from having time to do the stuff you really want to do and now know HOW to do on your own because you've btdt.

 

This sums it up nicely! Thanks! Of course, you're right!

[Paisley Hedgehog]

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[Nan in Mass]

These are things I have thought about quite a lot.

 

Most important are family values and self discipline. Obviously. Family values are passed along partly through beloved children's literature. This means tons of reading aloud, preferably cuddled up together someplace nice. Lots of family time, with the focus on just being the family and not on outside activities, is important. I think it is much easier to pass along family values if the whole family enjoys one another and enjoys their life together.

 

Next most important are family activites, so the child will become a competent adult within the family. For our family, this means learning to sail, swim, camp, and make things, mostly. This includes lots of natural history. It is much easier to learn your plants and animals in context when you are young. Natural history also serves as a framework for philosophy, for "how the world works" in our family. (A different family's idea of "how the world works" might involve more economics, people skills, and how to be street-wise, for example.)

 

Then I would have to say TWTM basic skills (I wrote a long post about this awhile back), math basic skills (applied applied applied needed and used), and tons of free time for fun reading of a high quality and doing or making things. The making and doing doesn't have to come out well. Most of it will fail or won't even be finished. That is fine. It just seems to me, looking at my children's friends (all over 18 at this point) that the ones who did and made things are much more competent adults. I don't mean doing and making in a class or on a team. That is good for a start, but the child then has to go on to trying things on their own. I think this is the pitfall of having every minute of the day scheduled at a young age - they never get to try what they've learned all on their own, as an adult would. I am as guilty of over-scheduling as anyone else, but at least mine had the summer unscheduled, usually confined to a world that forced them to do things.

 

Next most important are foreign languages and music. These are much easier to learn if you learn them early. Sing tons of songs and learn to play an instrument or two.

 

I think it is important to learn to draw. My children and their friends loved to draw until they were about 8. Then suddenly they were dissatisfied with their drawing and stopped. That is the point at which they need to be taught to draw so they can continue to enjoy it. It is a very useful skill. I'm not talking about art. I'm just talking about being able to draw. We used Draw Squad very very successfully. Under the somewhat annoying rarayoucandoit is a set of simple drawing lessons that teach many of the same concepts that were taught in my college drawing class. It teaches the sort of drawing that most children mean when they think "drawing" - how to draw things out of their heads, like castles.

 

I think it is important for children to have lots of different experiences.

 

LOL - Obviously, I think skills are important and content not very. Mine seemed to get lots of history and science content just by reading and living. For years, we just did science and history on Fridays, along with foreign language and math (those had to be every day or we forgot faster than we learned). Field trips are nice for those.

 

Nan

[Pamela in VA]

Man, if we had that we'd be golden. :lol: Some kids just don't have it, sigh. Sometimes I've connived and created projects that required her persist. Doesn't usually seem to help. I must not have persisted long enough at them. :D

 

Some encouragement...I have often felt like this with ds, almost 16 and a rising sophomore, but there are glimmers of breakthrough...FINALLY. I think for some kids, it's just not innate. I can't speak for your dd, but for my ds, who is intelligent and gifted in many areas, this manifests as sheer laziness. Once something that was initially easy (and he was easily excelling at) becomes the least bit challenging, he doesn't want to apply himself or work hard to improve or study at length. This applies to academic subjects, piano, and even fun things like soccer, NRA shooting, archery, etc.

 

So, for now, the one that has to persist is me. But like I said above, that is changing. Not sure if it's how you meant it, but the "goat wrestling is tiring" quip is how I feel about it sometimes. Made me laugh!

 

Good luck!

Pamela in VA

[profmom]

1) Reading. ..not phonics or reading comprehension questions (which I loathe & will not use), but high quality kids' lit... lots and lots of it. Read aloud, listened to on audiobook, read independently. ...and poetry... memorized, but also just enjoyed. ... the real thing, not doggerel... not educational (ie putting facts to rhymes... that has its place, but it doesn't count for poetry). If all one did in the elementary years was to read high quality books (fiction & non-fiction, prose & poetry), it would time well spent.

 

2) Cherish and nourish the young child's natural love of learning... if you see that spark faltering *change course*... Two key components of that:

 

- Copious amounts of free time, and a resource rich environment in which to spend it. ...fill the house with books... reference books, poetry, literature, science, history... guidebooks, how-to books..

 

- "follow the child" (Dr Montessori's mantra) ...adapt the process to the kid... "control the environment not the child".

 

3) Transmit core family values - for our family those are Torah centered.

 

 

 

Everything else is icing on the cake.

 

 

I love this! Thanks!

[profmom]

Thanks Nan & PameLA & Shari & Paradox! I love this thread!

[FloridaLisa]

Like many other posters:

 

Yes, pretty much this:

 

1) Reading. ..not phonics or reading comprehension questions (which I loathe & will not use), but high quality kids' lit... lots and lots of it. Read aloud, listened to on audiobook, read independently. ...and poetry... memorized, but also just enjoyed. ... the real thing, not doggerel... not educational (ie putting facts to rhymes... that has its place, but it doesn't count for poetry). If all one did in the elementary years was to read high quality books (fiction & non-fiction, prose & poetry), it would time well spent.

 

2) Cherish and nourish the young child's natural love of learning... if you see that spark faltering *change course*... Two key components of that:

 

- Copious amounts of free time, and a resource rich environment in which to spend it. ...fill the house with books... reference books, poetry, literature, science, history... guidebooks, how-to books..

[snip]

 

3) Transmit core family values - for our family those are Torah centered.

 

Everything else is icing on the cake.

 

Also, I agree with Brenda:

 

Neither of my dc remember the specifics that we studied in history in early elementary. They both enjoyed learning at the time, but when we revisited things in middle school, I found they hadn't remembered a huge amount.

 

We memorized all of the VP cards back in the day as we cycled through 5 years of history and you know what? They were forgotten. There were some pegs that my kids used later, but there was no easy recall of events and dates.

 

Having said that, we do lots of memorization in context. So we memorize lots of scripture as a family (and review it), memorize prepositions as it comes up in R & S, the Shurley grammar chants, math facts, presidents.

 

Lisa

Edited July 25, 2012 by FloridaLisa

[Night Elf]

I don't have a little to start again, but I can tell you what I've learned now that my kids are in high school.

 

Doing math and Language Arts consistently through elementary and middle school definitely helped. The Language Arts ds16 did paid off in all his subjects that required reading and writing. The one Language Arts area I did not do consistent,ly that I truly regret, is writing. He started high school with absolutely no confidence in how to write a paragraph, let alone an essay. But his grammar skills were so strong that he wrote very good paragraphs. He just didn't feel they were good. He's now a junior and he has much more confidence.

 

We didn't cover music, art, or foreign language in the early years. I regret that. We picked up Latin a few times but never stuck with it long enough to actually learn anything. In high school, he's got to take a Fine Arts class. Dd14 took it this past school year and it was really hard. It required analysis that was totally foreign to us. I'm not looking forward to ds taking that class. He's doing okay in his Foreign Language, Japanese, but I think the class would have started out more easily if he had some idea of what it was like to learn a language.

 

The last thing I wish I would have stressed was reading. My ds16 used to read when he was in elementary school but for some reason began hating it in middle school. That was when we started reading nearly all books aloud. That was bad because he now struggles with reading a book on his own. He says he doesn't have patience or focus to read something longer than a short article. I'm not entirely sure where to go with this. It's not comprehension though. He can understand and intelligently discuss anything we've read aloud. It's just the physical act of him picking up a book and reading it independently. I wish I would have fostered a love of reading.

[Nan in Mass]

...The last thing I wish I would have stressed was reading. My ds16 used to read when he was in elementary school but for some reason began hating it in middle school. That was when we started reading nearly all books aloud. That was bad because he now struggles with reading a book on his own. He says he doesn't have patience or focus to read something longer than a short article. I'm not entirely sure where to go with this. It's not comprehension though. He can understand and intelligently discuss anything we've read aloud. It's just the physical act of him picking up a book and reading it independently. I wish I would have fostered a love of reading.

 

I have some experience with this. I think the trick here is finding a book they really want to read, something fun and easy and absorbing. You might find out what one of his friends is reading or what other picky boy readers his age are reading for fun and have him try that. It is going to have to be something that sucks him in within the first few paragraphs and then continues to be exciting all the way through. Several books like that can act as a starting point and serve to build up reading habits. It helps to make a space in their lives to read, too. I began insisting that mine go to bed half an hour earlier to read a little before sleeping. I made it a rule that mine had to read for two hours every day during the summer as part of our summer schooling (along with finishing a math book).

 

Interestingly, the same exact thing happens in reverse when someone first starts trying to listen to audio books who is used to reading to themselves.

 

I have no idea what your family is like and whether what my more non-reading boys would be suitable or appealing to your son, but I would be willing to recommend some books that the non-readers liked if you pm me.

 

Nan

[SkateLeft]

Consistency

 

:iagree:

 

Be consistent, especially with math and writing... even when those subjects get hard. Don't drop stuff or second guess yourself just because your kid complains.

 

I cringe when I see people talk about switching math programs like they're changing clothes. Not every math program will work for every kid, but once you find what works, stick with it... even when it's hard.

 

Don't switch curriculum or methods just because something is the flavor of the month. Trust yourself, and if you've got something that works, stick with it.

 

Writing is not a natural act. It's not something we're born knowing how to do. It requires a lot of skills to come together, and it can be HARD for some kids. Very hard. Be consistent and keep at it, even when they complain.

 

/stepping down from my soapbox :D

[8filltheheart]

I agree w/ the sentiments already expressed.

 

To just expand on some of the ideas. I try to protect my children's love of learning. I have learned over time that my kids are typically content even w/hard assignments when the work matches their abilities. When there is frustration, bad attitude, or boredom, it is typically not poor work ethic but a lack of understanding or lack of appropriate challenge.

 

Ignoring "grade levels" and focusing on their individual skill/level abilities is the best way to avoid those types of negative issues.

 

I also try to show my children that I respect their opinions and interests. We discuss what they want to study and that influences content area selections. Like Brenda and others have stated, what they study in the non-skill level areas in the younger yrs will not be remembered in detail when they are older. So, we follow interests in those subject areas.

 

I also expect them to produce their highest quality work and don't accept sloppy 1/2 efforts. Work will be re-done if I know they are capable of better quality.

Edited July 25, 2012 by 8FillTheHeart