Quiverful People & Others... Please Help Me

[Sahamamama]

Please bear with me... I am only trying to get accurate information and some perspectives to help my friends. I am NOT trying to start a "theology war" about birth control, family size, marriage, husband/wife submission, or any other controversial subject... I just want to understand this better.

 

My husband and I are friends with a couple -- we'll call them John and Jane -- who married somewhat later in life (38 for him, 40 for her). Because of their desire to have children and their concerns about Jane's age, they decided not to use any birth control and became pregnant on their honeymoon. Nine months later, they had their first child, a son, Jonah, who is now 4 years old. They also have a daughter, Rachel, who is 2.5 years old.

 

After Rachel was born, Jane was diagnosed with HPV, which she says is an STD (Jane told me this, without adding any further "explanation," so I am clueless about this...). :001_huh: Also, John began having recurrent seizures (big ones), that are the result of brain surgery he had in his 20s. He is not allowed to drive for at least 2 years after the last seizure. This means that Jane has to do all the driving at least until Spring 2010.

 

John's work is somewhat unpredictable, because he is contracted. They always seem to be unsure whether or not the contract will be renewed, leaving them out of work. The family doesn't always have medical insurance (it depends on the contract). They are buying a house, but this is only possible with LOTS of help from Jane's mother.

 

Because of these factors, her level of energy, her concerns about finances and health, her satisfaction with her two healthy children, and her age, Jane wanted to be finished with having children after Rachel was born. However, John has embraced something he calls "Quiverful," and he has said that they should "leave it up to God" to decide the size and spacing of their family.

 

Last year Jane became pregnant with their third child, a boy, and miscarried this baby (James). This year, she is again pregnant -- with twins -- and at 22 weeks has been put on mandated bedrest. She is supposed to "sit" while she maintains the home, cares for two small children, drives to get all the groceries, etc., etc. Additionally, Jane said that John often wants to do completely unrealistic things, such as go camping or visit family far away or have lots of company over -- but all the work, packing, planning, cooking, lugging, driving, etc. falls on Jane.

 

Jane has wept on my shoulder, telling me that she doesn't know HOW she will do this. I have a toddler and twins, so I do know that it's possible to have healthy twins, but HARD WORK to raise them. And I have a loving, gracious, supportive husband in every way, and parents who give practical, hands-on help. Honestly, I don't know what to tell Jane. How WILL she do this?

 

Jane says that when she tries to talk to John about her concerns, he says she doesn't live by faith, she isn't welcoming to the babies, isn't embracing her calling as a mother, and isn't welcoming to any OTHER children they may have AFTER the twins are born. That last part about more children just about sent her over the edge.

 

Jane says she feels like John wants her to be a Baby Maker Machine, and she doesn't want this for her family. I don't know what to tell her at this point, because everything that I would say in this situation is something she says she simply could NEVER say in her marriage. Can someone out there who understands this please explain to me what is going on? TIA.

[Sahamamama]

Bump, because I really, really need help with this, and I don't know where else to go to discuss it.

[Julie in Austin]

I would strongly encourage her to talk with her priest/pastor/whatever with her husband.

 

While I do not subscribe to either quiverful thinking or to "wifely submission" thinking, I do know that believers in those ideas do not see them in isolation but rather as part of a package deal (if you will) that also involves the husband loving his wife as Christ loved the church. And lemme tell ya' that He never would have suggested camping to a woman on bedrest with toddlers! I would think that their priest/paster/whatever should be able to help her dh see the other half of this picture which is that he needs to be giving 100% if he expects her to.

 

Good luck.

[Marie in Oh]

are in an unhealthy marital relationship. There is nothing wrong with what John wants and there is nothing wrong with Jane's concerns. These are things that in healthy realationships, couples work out. But it doesn't seem like that is happening with John and Jane.

 

I am expecting my 7th child in October. My oldest will be 10.5. It is hard, hard, hard, work. I am tired, dh is tired, but dh and I are on the same page. We help one another. He supports me, listens to me when I am frustrated, fed up, at my wits end, etc. It doesn't sound like John is like this. So, I would suggest to Jane that they need some trusted counseling. They need to work this out before the twins are born.

 

I have no problem with trusting GOd for your family size, but I do have problems when it is one-sided trust, meaning only one spouse on that page and the one spouse making it a measure of spirituality. Quiverfull is not a "thus says the Lord." I repeat. . .nowhere does God say in Scripture that couples are to have babies til they drop in exhaustion and fatigue. It isn't there. Yes, children are a blessing. Yes, we are commanded to multiply. But some people take it way to far and make it a measure of a person's spirituality. That's legalism and God detests that. THe number of kids a couple has makes them no more spiritual than one that has less. It isn't a measure of faith. It is a calling, that is between and husband, a wife, and the Lord.

 

That's all.

 

Jane needs to go to John and together they need to go to a pastor or trusted individual and get this worked out before it is too late. They need to get on the same page before too much bitterness and anger wells up on Jane's end and it is too late to heal.

[Aubrey]

I am not quiverful, don't know anyone irl who is, but here's what I think, fwiw.

 

I see 2 issues here: bc & marriage. Your friend's marriage needs prayer. Her dh at the very least is not communicating well. If he truly has a vision for a larger family, *he* needs to be praying for provision for that & for dw's heart to change, not force it on her.

 

That said, I think most people would say given their situation, they should not have more dc. I think the issue of bc has to be addressed apart from a person's circumstances. I think ea couple has to answer for himself or herself: IS bc ok or not? when? for whom? IF they come to the conclusion *together* that it's wrong, then they need to address finances separately.

 

Imagine something you personally feel convicted is wrong--say stealing. Would you tell a person that stealing is wrong *if* you can afford to feed your family? Of course not. You might have grace for someone who chooses to steal under dire circumstances, but you'd never encourage or recommend it. That's how I feel about bc for *others.* I want other people to be free to make that *moral* decision w/out any other obligation taking precedence, even finances.

 

I'm answering your post in my ignorance because this is something that...I've felt pressing on me since finding out I was pg w/ this one. Dh & I have always wanted 4 dc, so up to now, an unexpected pg was no big deal. Not that we've had any (other than this one), really.

 

We've talked about it for the past few mos off & on. Yesterday, I told dh I'm afraid this might be what God wants (from *us*--not passing judgement on anyone else). He said, "Yeah, I've been praying that God would show you that." :glare:

 

Actually, I really respect him for that. Seminary was the same way. Once he was convinced he needed to go, he didn't say a word to me, he just prayed.

 

The dc have been so snarky today, though, I'm rethinking my position. ;) Ultimately, as far as the "how to"--if *both* of them decide this is what the Lord wants, part of following that will be trusting him to provide the finances & energy. I guess I'd encourage your friend to pray. A lot. And keep separate issues separate.

 

GL! :grouphug:

[M&M]

are in an unhealthy marital relationship. There is nothing wrong with what John wants and there is nothing wrong with Jane's concerns. These are things that in healthy realationships, couples work out. But it doesn't seem like that is happening with John and Jane.

 

I have no problem with trusting GOd for your family size, but I do have problems when it is one-sided trust, meaning only one spouse on that page and the one spouse making it a measure of spirituality. Quiverfull is not a "thus says the Lord." I repeat. . .nowhere does God say in Scripture that couples are to have babies til they drop in exhaustion and fatigue. It isn't there. Yes, children are a blessing. Yes, we are commanded to multiply. But some people take it way to far and make it a measure of a person's spirituality. That's legalism and God detests that. THe number of kids a couple has makes them no more spiritual than one that has less. It isn't a measure of faith. It is a calling, that is between and husband, a wife, and the Lord.

 

That's all.

 

Jane needs to go to John and together they need to go to a pastor or trusted individual and get this worked out before it is too late. They need to get on the same page before too much bitterness and anger wells up on Jane's end and it is too late to heal.

 

:iagree:

[Anne]

Jane and John need help. There are so many things wrong with a man who thinks it would be a good idea to go camping with a toddler while his wife is on bedrest, that I don't even know how to start listing them!

 

I think their problems are not really about birth control or not, but about relating to one another and honoring one another.

 

Counseling!! And maybe it needs to be in-home counseling if Jane is supposed to be on bedrest!!

 

Anne

[Sue G in PA]

Red flags are going up here b/c it sounds like they are so totally not on the same page. I have a friend who has 4 dc. She had her first daughter fairly young and out of wedlock. She married and her dh adopted her daughter. She then went on to have 3 more dc. She will tell you that she was done after 2, but her dh wanted more. We went to church w/ this couple and I knew them fairly well. Her dh was very immature and not very helpful. Well, about a year after dc#4 was born, dh left. He couldn't handle it. Many issues there, but now my friend is "stuck" being a single mom to 4 young children. I'm not saying this will happen to your friend but she is in a similar situation if her dh can't help much b/c of medical issues. HE wants the children but can't help care for them. How unfair is that to his wife OR to his children? I'll be praying for your friend and her family. I'm all for "quiverfull" but I do believe there are times when we need to be realistic. Being realistic doesn't mean you don't have faith.

[Jennifer in MI]

 

I have no problem with trusting GOd for your family size, but I do have problems when it is one-sided trust, meaning only one spouse on that page and the one spouse making it a measure of spirituality. Quiverfull is not a "thus says the Lord." I repeat. . .nowhere does God say in Scripture that couples are to have babies til they drop in exhaustion and fatigue. It isn't there. Yes, children are a blessing. Yes, we are commanded to multiply. But some people take it way to far and make it a measure of a person's spirituality. That's legalism and God detests that. THe number of kids a couple has makes them no more spiritual than one that has less. It isn't a measure of faith. It is a calling, that is between and husband, a wife, and the Lord.

.

 

Beautifully said! Thank you!

[Jami]

My thoughts, uncharitable though they may be....

 

It's highly hypocritical of him to say he wants to obey verses about being Quiverfull (though the argument can be made that there are no such binding requirements, other than the general principles Marie mentioned) and completely ignore the very real instruction for him to love his wife as he loves his own body. And if she's distressed, exhausted, fearful for her health or his...then he might have some serious issues with how poorly he's loving her by not considering these real concerns she carries.

[Quiver0f10]

I would strongly encourage her to talk with her priest/pastor/whatever with her husband.

 

 

:iagree: There are more issues here than being QF. Her and her DH need to get on the same page @ this.

[Gretchen in NJ]

I would strongly encourage her to talk with her priest/pastor/whatever with her husband.

 

While I do not subscribe to either quiverful thinking or to "wifely submission" thinking, I do know that believers in those ideas do not see them in isolation but rather as part of a package deal (if you will) that also involves the husband loving his wife as Christ loved the church. And lemme tell ya' that He never would have suggested camping to a woman on bedrest with toddlers! I would think that their priest/paster/whatever should be able to help her dh see the other half of this picture which is that he needs to be giving 100% if he expects her to.

 

Good luck.

 

Jane and John need help. There are so many things wrong with a man who thinks it would be a good idea to go camping with a toddler while his wife is on bedrest, that I don't even know how to start listing them!

 

I think their problems are not really about birth control or not, but about relating to one another and honoring one another.

 

Counseling!! And maybe it needs to be in-home counseling if Jane is supposed to be on bedrest!!

 

Anne

 

My thoughts, uncharitable though they may be....

 

It's highly hypocritical of him to say he wants to obey verses about being Quiverfull (though the argument can be made that there are no such binding requirements, other than the general principles Marie mentioned) and completely ignore the very real instruction for him to love his wife as he loves his own body. And if she's distressed, exhausted, fearful for her health or his...then he might have some serious issues with how poorly he's loving her by not considering these real concerns she carries.

:iagree: with what they said. I had wanted to post eariler, but I could not think of a nice and positive post. I thank the ladies above for doing that for me. Two words came to mind after I read your post: "verbally" and "abusive."

[dangermom]

Oh dear. This is just not cool. I agree that she should speak with her pastor--her husband needs some serious lessons in loving her as Christ loves the Church. Of course she's overwhelmed and scared, and her husband should absolutely not be burdening her further with 'fun' things for her to arrange!

 

Scripture is not to be used to bully someone into doing what you want them to do.

 

He said, "Yeah, I've been praying that God would show you that." :glare:

 

See, I don't know about that. How about praying that God would show you (and him) the right thing to do, and leave it at that?

[Aubrey]

See, I don't know about that. How about praying that God would show you (and him) the right thing to do, and leave it at that?

 

That doesn't really sound very good, does it? I just paraphrased badly. Trying to save space, but didn't do him justice.

 

More fully, he's feeling like *perhaps* that's what God is calling us to, but he would not ask something like that of me. So, his prayers were more, If it's Your will, YOU tell her. LOL

 

Dh is such that I could tell him that I'm sure something is right but it's too hard, & he wouldn't pressure me. He'd pray for me, but not pressure. Does that make better sense? :001_huh:

[dangermom]

Yes, thanks. :p

[FO4UR]

I'm agreeing that they should talk to pastor or a good Christian counselor. I wouldn't even begin to talk about Q-full, until they address the issues in the marriage. Of course she doesn't want to have more babies with a man who isn't taking care of her. It's easy for her dh to blame that on HER lack of faith b/c then he can completely overlook his own shortcomings. (and I tend to think along the lines of Q-full, though I don't really call myself Q-full)

 

I do believe that God will provide her the grace and physical needs for raising all of her dc. Tell her to PRAY, and pray specifically.

[Sahamamama]

Ladies -- Thank you so much for these heart-felt and honest responses to my questions. Because my husband and I do NOT embrace Q-full (or any variant of it), we cannot understand this way of thinking from the "inside." It's difficult for me to wrap my head and heart around what this couple (at least "John") is trying to pursue and put into practice. We began our family late in life (38 when first was born, 40 when the twins came), and I had cancer in between the pregnancies. David, my husband, watched me go through a tough pregnancy, a C-section, surgery to remove the cancer, cancer treatment (and aftermath), recovery, a second (twin) pregnancy with lots of complications and restrictions, and a second C-section. Then, our healthy twins developed pyloric stenosis, so they were both throwing up all the time (until they had surgery). It was a wild ride for a while there. David and I felt that for us, enough was enough, and my body was in need of healing (still is, for that matter).

 

So, when my friend with two preschoolers tells me she is overwhelmed with the twin pregnancy she is currently IN, but her husband is demanding this and this and this and this AND wants her to have more children down the road, I just Can Not Get It.

 

Your posts have helped me to see that this is possibly something that couples can manage if they embrace it together, without pressuring each other or using this issue to "measure spirituality." In this case, from what I hear (one side), they don't seem to be in agreement about a lot of things.

 

Those of you who believe that prayer makes a positive difference -- please pray for this couple and their children. Thanks!