Rain Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 I need advice, encouragement, a kick in the pants .... something. My 15 yo dd (will be 16 in a month) is having a horrible time with math. She tests as "highly gifted" (top 99.8%ile from the Gifted Development Center in Denver) in math and yet you would never know it from her performance this year. She's doing Algebra 2 with Saxon and almost every day it's tears and "I SUCK at math!" We did Alg 1 starting with AoPS online class, which moved way too fast. We went to just doing the book on our own and dd could do the problems in the middle of the chapter easily but would get stuck on the end of chapter problems and ended up hating it. We moved to LoF Algebra and she couldnt' figure out the instruction from the story. We finished the year with Kinetics Algebra and that worked okay. Last year for Geometry we started out with LoF then got bogged down in her not understanding proofs AT ALL. By this time she was feeling horrible about math so we went to MUS, which increased her confidence but we both felt was terribly light. She asked for a more rigorous math this year. We started the year with Foerster's Alg/Trig with the Math without Borders CD and dropped that at Christmastime when dd was hopelessly lost. She asked for a book that had plenty of review and bite sized chunks, which sounded like Saxon to me. So we switched to Saxon and she was pretty happy for awhile. She is now on lesson 81 -- out of 130! -- and is getting less than 50% on her daily work. She takes about 2 1/2 hours to do a lesson, then it takes another 1-2 hours to redo the wrong problems. In order to do a lesson a day, it's taking 4+ hours daily. She is *so* frustrated with working so much and still getting so much wrong! She says she hates math, she's no good at it, etc. It's a mix of things she's getting wrong -- some are computation errors, some are forgetting or missing a negative sign, some are not understanding how to do the problem, some are things like (12+sqrt P)^2 and getting 144+P as the answer, because she doesn't work the whole thing out. We switched to doing all her math on graph paper and that's helped with missing the negative signs and sloppy writing (thinking a 9 is a 4), but it doesn't help with the other things. She doesn't want to switch to another program and have to start over at the beginning AGAIN. Any advice? I don't want her to hate math, but I also know she needs a strong foundation. She loves the sciences and wants to be an engineer or inventor or writer or fashion designer or rancher :tongue_smilie: HELP! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonshineLearner Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 What about something like ALEKS? :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted May 23, 2012 Author Share Posted May 23, 2012 (edited) You know, I was thinking about that as I wrote my message out. I think we're going to try it, with Khan Academy videos. Dd is receptive -- she absolutely does NOT want to start over with a new curriculum yet again. She just told me that she feels like Saxon's instructions are very confusing, and just when she finally understands how to do certain problems, they stop putting them in the daily work. When they do show up again, she's forgotten how to do them. I wish Aleks weren't so expensive! We're going to do the free trial, but it's only 48 hours. Edited May 23, 2012 by Rain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 In that situation, I would recommend a tutor. A person who can sit down with her and figure out where exactly she needs help. The mistakes you mention are prealgebra/early algebra stuff: signs, squaring out expressions, etc. just when she finally understands how to do certain problems, they stop putting them in the daily work. When they do show up again, she's forgotten how to do them. This means that she never actually understood the concept, but simply memorized a procedure for solving the type of problem. It is quite possible that she got through math this far with this kind of coping strategy because she is gifted, and only now hits the wall that kids of lesser intellectual capabilities hit early in algebra 1. I really think she needs to have a live tutor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1Togo Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Sent a pm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen in NY Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 I feel for you guys!! If your daughter is testing in the 98% for math aptitude, then I would definitely try to find a way to build confidence in this area. One thing is certain: Math Skills Open Doors! I am sorry that your dd had a rough time with AoPS. It is truly a tough program... but it is made to be that way on purpose. My dd's take classes through there and I don't think they have ever solved all the challenge problems --- ever! It can be frustrating if you don't remind yourself that the books are written to challenge everyone... even kids who are phenomenally fast at picking things up. So just doing your best to keep up can mean you are learning a LOT of math. I say this because my oldest, (who now absolutely loves math) was in tears everyday when we were using Saxon. Now she is fantastic at math and is planning on a STEM discipline for college. Because your dd has such a high math aptitude it may be worth giving AoPS another shot. If we didn't have AoPS in our lives I would probably go with Thinkwell. I like the videos .... I might go that way to prep myself to go back to college. HTH! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilovemy4kids Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Have you looked into using the Art Reed DVD's with Saxon? He explains things much better than the saxon book. The website is http://www.homeschoolwithsaxon.com Sandra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kareni Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 I wish Aleks weren't so expensive! We're going to do the free trial, but it's only 48 hours. This looks like a link to a FREE two month trial for Aleks - Aleks 2-Month FREE Trial Regards, Kareni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinRTX Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 It sounds like this is your first experience with Saxon. To start the Saxon method at Algebra 2 is rough. I did that to my oldest. He is very, very good at math and had done well with an Algebra 1 program from somewhere else. Then I did Saxon 2 with him and he was struggling! It took us 2 years to do that book because I slowed him down. He went on to do the Advanced Math in 1 year and the Calculus. He also majored in EE in college and got a perfect score on the math portions of the PSAT and SAT. Adjusting to Saxon can be hard! If she does not want to change, just slow down. Once the Saxon methodology clicks, she will be fine. Linda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted May 23, 2012 Author Share Posted May 23, 2012 Yes, it's our first experience with Saxon. I swore I would never use it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Yes, it's our first experience with Saxon. I swore I would never use it. It is entirely possible that Saxon does not work for your daughter. It is not just a matter of getting used to it - for some students, the incremental method is frustrating and will not work. We are Saxon dropouts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted May 23, 2012 Author Share Posted May 23, 2012 In that situation, I would recommend a tutor. A person who can sit down with her and figure out where exactly she needs help.The mistakes you mention are prealgebra/early algebra stuff: signs, squaring out expressions, etc. This means that she never actually understood the concept, but simply memorized a procedure for solving the type of problem. It is quite possible that she got through math this far with this kind of coping strategy because she is gifted, and only now hits the wall that kids of lesser intellectual capabilities hit early in algebra 1. I really think she needs to have a live tutor. Unfortunately, I *am* the live tutor LOL Seriously though, it's not an option. I tutored the neighbor kids who were in the high school. We are *very* rural -- nearest grocery store is over 35 miles away -- and it just isn't available here. To go to a place in town where she could be tutored would be $20/day in gas and almost 2 hours in the car. We always did a lot of conceptual work; I think her biggest problem is now she can't do the problems in her head and she resists writing things down. It's not that she doesn't know how to work with negative numbers, she just doesn't *see* the negative when she writes it down and moves to a different part of the problem. I think Saxon has also contributed to the problem. For example, today she told me that her answer couldn't possibly be wrong because if it was, she wouldn't have gotten a whole number because Saxon always writes their problems so that whole numbers are correct and decimals are wrong. My dd's take classes through there and I don't think they have ever solved all the challenge problems --- ever! It can be frustrating if you don't remind yourself that the books are written to challenge everyone... even kids who are phenomenally fast at picking things up. So just doing your best to keep up can mean you are learning a LOT of math. I say this because my oldest, (who now absolutely loves math) was in tears everyday when we were using Saxon. Now she is fantastic at math and is planning on a STEM discipline for college. Because your dd has such a high math aptitude it may be worth giving AoPS another shot. If we didn't have AoPS in our lives I would probably go with Thinkwell. I like the videos .... I might go that way to prep myself to go back to college. HTH! She did learn a LOT with AoPS, she just hates it now. It wasn't the challenge problems that were sticking points -- we just skipped those altogether -- it was the end-of-chapter review. The 2 or 3 problem end-of-section reviews were very easy. I probably pushed her way too much with AoPS, and now she doesn't even want to look at the book. Maybe next year (sigh) This looks like a link to a FREE two month trial for Aleks - Aleks 2-Month FREE Trial THANK YOU!!! It sounds like this is your first experience with Saxon. To start the Saxon method at Algebra 2 is rough. I did that to my oldest. He is very, very good at math and had done well with an Algebra 1 program from somewhere else. Then I did Saxon 2 with him and he was struggling! It took us 2 years to do that book because I slowed him down. He went on to do the Advanced Math in 1 year and the Calculus. He also majored in EE in college and got a perfect score on the math portions of the PSAT and SAT. Adjusting to Saxon can be hard! If she does not want to change, just slow down. Once the Saxon methodology clicks, she will be fine. good to know! And makes me feel so much better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4wildberrys Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 I feel for you! BTDT with my dd, and Saxon had the exact same effect on her self esteem. I know the feeling of not wanting to change curriculums...again...because we did WAY too many times, but I do highly recommend MUS. It was the ONLY curriculum that gave her confidence enough to finish Algebra and Geometry---we switched out of desperation so many times, that's all she had time for :001_huh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Did you do the *placement test* before you started her on that level of Saxon? BTW, is it possible she's more of a humanities person and not a math person? Just because a person is gifted enough to do the math doesn't mean they love it or feel it or think that way. She might like Dolciani. It's mastery, not spiral, and uses a lot of language. It might be a fresh way to see things. (set theory, focus on conceptual instead of the applied side like Foerster, etc.) It's a nice middle of the road choice between Foerster and AoPS. It's one you can pick up inexpensively just to look at. I even have my text from when I was in high school. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JanetC Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 I feel for you! BTDT with my dd, and Saxon had the exact same effect on her self esteem. I know the feeling of not wanting to change curriculums...again...because we did WAY too many times, but I do highly recommend MUS. It was the ONLY curriculum that gave her confidence enough to finish Algebra and Geometry---we switched out of desperation so many times, that's all she had time for :001_huh: :iagree:I know two other families who used MUS to recover from previous poor-fit choices in curriculum, because it's very sequential, so you can find and fill in holes easily, and the lessons are generally broken into "small bites." MUS Algebra 1 is a little light, so Algebra 2 does not start out too difficult. There are placement tests here: http://www.mathusee.com/about-us/assessment/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer in FL Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Can anyone give me any add'l info on ALEKS. We are having a similar situation with Algebra 1. My son is getting about an 85%. Another mom the forum said that means they are not mastering 20 % of the material and going on to Saxon II would be a mistake. She suggested getting Keys to algebra as a supplement, but the problems are really too easy. My ds errors are sometimes careless and sometimes a result of not understanding the material. I was wondering about doing a geometry course next year instead. Any thoughts, opinions or ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trilliums Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 My younger DS has had his share of math woes with algebra 1. He tried a few different texts (including Saxon which DS #1 used for Alg 1 but every time I read it I feel my eyes begin to roll back into my head) but everything was ending in frustration. We finally decided to back way up to make sure he did not have gaps. He used Khan Academy's knowledge web/practice problems from the very beginning. This helped identify weak areas and made sure all the basics were covered. It moves along very quickly and if the student struggles with any of the problem sets, khan has the appropriate video linked for clarification. He did this over spring break and was able to get back on track with algebra one. He is now working through AoPS and using Khan to supplement. He feels so much better about math now too! He did encounter a few instances with Khan where the videos didn't cover quite the same content as the problem sets--or some times you would have to watch several videos to get the complete coverage--but overall, it worked out very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbaloue Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 You may want to try www.YourTeacher.com. It may be the answer to your problem.;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JanetC Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 You may want to try www.YourTeacher.com. It may be the answer to your problem.;) That one is free during the summer... I peeked at it when they ran the free-for-summer promotion last summer and it wasn't a fit for my kids. But, YMMV. http://www.homeschoolbuyersco-op.org/yourteacher-freebie/?source=Home-Page --Janet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teachin'Mine Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 If the Saxon style of learning works for her and it's just that she's lost in Algebra 2, you might want to consider getting Saxon's Algebra 1 book and letting her work through that first. A lot of it should go quickly, but hopefully she'll be able to fill in gaps, which I'm assuming is what's holding her back in Algebra 2. I'd have her work two lessons a day or something like that till she's back into algebra 2. A lesson should never take 4 plus hours. She must be missing things from algebra 1 which is definitely a possibility considering all her curricula changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie in MN Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 I always like to suggest looking at Math Relief when you are stuck in Algebra. I feel the teacher is truly gifted in the one area - teaching Algebra - and keeps his focus on just that. There is a sample video on Youtube or here: http://www.mathrelief.com/ julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperDad Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 Unfortunately, I *am* the live tutor LOL Seriously though, it's not an option. I tutored the neighbor kids who were in the high school. We are *very* rural -- nearest grocery store is over 35 miles away -- and it just isn't available here. To go to a place in town where she could be tutored would be $20/day in gas and almost 2 hours in the car. Would it be possible to find an online or Skype tutor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 regentrude:In that situation, I would recommend a tutor. A person who can sit down with her and figure out where exactly she needs help. Totally agree. It's time to farm this out, or at least have someone else besides you bring her up to speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elinor Everywhere Posted May 29, 2012 Share Posted May 29, 2012 Have you looked into using the Art Reed DVD's with Saxon? He explains things much better than the saxon book. The website is http://www.homeschoolwithsaxon.com Sandra :iagree::iagree: We love Art Reed! (full disclosure: I spouted for years that I would NEVER use Saxon. My, how things change. :D) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.