Why Public Universities Are Now a Bad Bargain for the Middle Class

[creekland]

Has anyone else seen this article yet?

 

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2012/03/07/public-universities-cost-middle-class-students-more-than-harvard/

 

I found it rather interesting. None of mine are aspiring to Ivies, but for the two who have gone through (or are in) the college application process, private has definitely come out less expensive. Oldest had very good, but not great, stats and is a private Christian LAC with a combo of merit and need-based aid. Middle has great stats (perhaps lacking on some bells and whistles associated with them due to our rural life) and will be heading to a private secular mid-sized research U* with a combo of both merit and need-based aid. Both are costing us less than our in-state options (this includes loans for both).

 

I know that doesn't happen for everyone, but I am wondering if we are more "normal" than not after reading this article.

 

* Not officially picked yet as he has to see if he gets into one more choice and with how much offered, but that's the bottom line top choice at the moment. His last option is also private and mid-sized.

[Bloggermom]

This is why we are choosing an alternate route for our children. We plan to CLEP out of as much as possible and do a lot of independent study courses at our own pace. We can save more in the long run this way.

[creekland]

This is why we are choosing an alternate route for our children. We plan to CLEP out of as much as possible and do a lot of independent study courses at our own pace. We can save more in the long run this way.

 

I enjoyed college way too much to consider that option for my guys. ;) It physically wouldn't work for my doctor wannabe either.

 

But yes, there are options cost-wise for those who want them.

[memphispeg]

We are finding that the best aid is coming from private universities and colleges. My eldest goes to an elite NE private college that gave her a very good package for her 4 years. She got more from them than she would have from big state U. She'll have enough loans to establish a credit history but, nothing that can't be paid off within a few years at a decent job. She would not have done as well in the public universities.

Younger dd is applying to a mix of schools. Thus far, the privates have shown us better financial aid packages. But, we are not done yet so, we don't know for sure who will "win" our student!

[Rhonda in TX]

My alma mater, a small private university, is very generous with scholarships and other types of aid. It makes the cost very competitive with state universities.

[FaithManor]

Well, I doubt this will hold true for us.

 

According to FASFA, we make just enough for the kids to not get need based aid. Even with dd's great scores and accomplishments, none of the privates came up with full ride scholarships and her top choice school awarded merit based on tuition and fees, but not on the total price (standard policy for them and no one could live off campus until the age of 22). Room and board, if memory serves, was $7500.00. They offered her 75% of tuition/fees and that left her with $3000.00 or so left plus that room and board. Her 529 plan had lost so much money (she graduated the year of the great housing bubble burst and stock market death) and by the time we absolutely had to order the check and pay money to some institution, we had lost 50% of the money we invested...forget ever making a dime of interest. It was a disaster. This left her with far fewer options for a girl primarily interested in getting out of college with few or no student loans. So, she opted for a very well respected, very well ranked tier 1 state U within commuting distance of relatives and sometimes home (home is a much longer distance than relatives for certain). She received nice sized scholarships and is debt free though for junior year she was going to have to take out her first student loan. She refused. She's on a break from school while she works full-time as a paramedic and saves money. I applaud her for taking such strong fiscal responsibility even though I don't think a $2500.00 student loan this year would have been the end of her financial future as a young adult!

 

As for our boys, again, we'll have three in together by the eldest boy's senior year and I don't think they'll get need based aid...we are just on that income brink where if you don't have a big mortgage, you won't qualify. Our home is almost paid off and we will be completely debt free by the time the next one is in school. We'll give each boy $3500.00 per year and the only reason we'll be able to swing that is the mortgage being paid off. Unless they get full rides, I don't see private U's as an option unless they are willing to take out more stout student loans. I have one boy clearly headed for engineering/mathemetics/physics who can probably afford some stoutish loans if he needs them, though he is the least likely of all four to have the problem of not landing mega-boat loads of merit aid.

 

But the other two, Anthropology/Archaeology for eldest and Zoology/Herpetology for middle (they will need at least master's degrees and one is definitely already planning for a PH.D), I just can't see the feasibility of $40,000.00 a year U who may award them $25,000.00 in scholarships (which would be very generous) and leave them needing to borrow $11,500.00 each year knowing we were pitching in the other $3500.00 in loans and then borrowing for grad school too! Scary....it's not as though anthropologists/archaeologists and herpetologist (research) are raking in the big bucks. It could easily morph into $100,000.00 in student loans for each by the time they are done with school. It makes my eyes twitch.

 

Meanwhile, Michigan State University at less than $20,000.00 per year and having relatives in the area they can live with, is ranked in the in the top universities of the U.S. and 164th in the world. Tuition is very reasonable and both boys are eligible for several scholarships including 4-H awards of $3000.00 a year for four years and that's not campus scholarships...that's just from our county/region put up by a collaboration of businesses. There is another $2500.00 per year for four years from the state extension office that they can compete for plus a lot of MSU internal scholarships. Middle boy has the potential to do very, very well and MSU is in the top 10 zoology departments in the United States and top 20 in the world for herpetological research. Middle child really can't go wrong. Down the I-94 corridor is U of M, very similar scholarship possibilities and price, 14th in the nation, top 30 in the world, and possessing again, very, very nice herptological research facilities. Middle kid really can't go wrong staying in state at public U though he will be looking at other options, U of Wisconsin in Madison, Minn U at Minnesota/St. Paul, etc.

 

Anthropology/Archaeology boy will look at the College of Wooster because it has such a fine Archaeology department. However, the largest scholarship offered, if memory serves, is 75% on a $47,000.00 school bill. He'll apply and compete for that scholarship. However, if he managed to land it, just based on this year's total costs (likely to go up before he ever gets there), he'd have after our contribution, a little over $8000.00 to borrow...times four...plus grad school loans and archaeologists make maybe $50,000.00 a year if they are lucky (my Ph.D. world reknowned environmental researcher for a well ranked state U has never, ever, ever made in the course of her career, more than $50,000.00 a year and most of the time it's in the $45,000.00 range because researchers just do not make squat unless they are in aerospace/defense industries, robotics, and medicine!). I can't imagine that kind of debt for him. Michigan Tech (115 in the US News and World Report college rankings, Tier 1), is only $21,000.00 total and already courting him heavily. Their current estimate based on what we are projecting as a ballpark final ACT score plus his participation in competitive rocketry, civic volunteerism at the capitol through 4-H, etc. is $17,000 - 18,000 in scholarships. With what we can contribute, he would be debt free for his undergrad. Their anthropology and archaeology departments are very, very good and he will have many opportunities to participate in digs both in the US and abroad.

 

However, all that said, he is heavily interested in Bryn Mawr and I have to admit, I really like what I have seen so far of their archaeology department. But, that's another mega expensive school so again, he'd need a virtual full-ride scholarship and many, many privates are no longer handing those even less for anthropology/archaeology. So, I really think that though we will be looking at private U's and seeing what they have to offer, public tier 1's is where our kids are headed.

 

Now, for dh and I, back in the mists of time, our experience was akin to yours with your boys. I was in music performance and hands down the private LAC's handed out WAY more money than the state U's. That's because most state U's don't invest in performance in the same way the privates do...most do not desire to compete on that level and their departments exist primarily for music education majors or music therapy. Dh also received mega scholarships at our private institution but for an odd reason. His dad's alma mater had landed a major grant from Tri-Star corporation for expanding and making their computer technology and mathematics department world class. All of their upgrades, new faculty, etc. were in place and they were seeking the best and brightest in computer programming. Dh auditioned for a scholarship with code he had written his senior year of high school...totally self-taught. Definitely, the private U was not only the better option, but the cheaper option for the two of us.

 

I think there are so many factors involved that it would be difficult to predict a general trend one way or another and especially for those of us with kids not going into the top 10 or 20 most popular majors.

 

Faith - this probably needs major editing, but I'm trying to supervise math exams and get ready for an important meeting so I'll have to get to that later!

[creekland]

I suspect which state one is in has a lot to do with it all as well. In PA, state and state related colleges/universities are getting funding cuts and they never did as much with merit or need based aid anyway (with rare exceptions - more exceptions for out of state students than in state :glare:). They are less expensive than privates for sticker cost, but not for us once merit and need based aid factored in. Then too, I don't like what the cuts in funding could potentially do to the actual educational opportunities.

 

Some states, indeed, have nice merit and/or need based aid for their state colleges. It could make a bit of difference.

 

My advice to anyone who asks will still be the same - try multiple places (state and private) and see what happens. Just don't fall in love with any one place.

[Lori D.]

Tuition at our state public universities has increased by almost 250% in the past 10 years -- from $2500/year to $9700/year -- for in-state residents. :eek: (And of course, that does NOT include books, fees, transportation, etc.) And with continued annual rate increases, at that rate, we're looking at just about $40,000 in tuition alone for a public school 4-year degree! (We are in a state that has been VERY hard-hit by the economy, with state funding of the universities drastically reduced in the past few years.)

 

 

Middle class here, too, so until DSs know for sure what they want to do, we're doing the community college route -- about $2500/year. (At that rate we could spend 4 years at the CC for the cost of 1 year at the university!) And, like Faith Manor, we have all the wrong demographics for scholarships (no super academics, no ethnicity, no female gender, no sports/music/talents, no special organization involvement, etc.), and FAFSA thinks we should be able to live on air, I guess, for the amount they think we should be contributing for education. (FAFSA numbers indicated we should be able to use a little over 25% of DH's *take-home* pay for college! I guess FAFSA does not take into account families like ours who live within our means, and will not be going into debt with student loans -- especially when DSs don't have any clear future career plan.)

 

The bonus is that we are lucky and have a decent CC; mostly good, experienced teachers and smaller class sizes (usually capped at 25-35). And, all of our state public universities have a special program with our local CC in which you can take all your specific, required, "gen. ed" classes at the CC, and then transfer to one of the universities as a junior to complete your 4-year degree there. That drops a 4-year degree cost to about $25,000 ($5000 for 2 years at the CC, + $20,000 for 2 years at the university).

 

I know this is not the solution for everyone, especially those who already know what they want to do, have high academics or other demographics that will bring in scholarship dollars -- but for those of us in the middle class who are very ordinary and average, this is a workable solution! BEST of luck to everyone as you plan for the post-high school years! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Lori D.

[creekland]

Tuition at our local cc is $2670 per semester, not year (not counting books, etc). It's still less expensive than a 4 year school, but it appears to be twice what a pp mentioned for their state.

 

In state tuition for our 4 year true state schools is listed at $6240 per year (quick google search, but then add fees, etc, so I suspect $8,000 would be closer) and are probably a better buy, but don't come with much prestige or name recognition.

 

State related schools (Penn State, Temple, Pitt) are in the $16,000 range if I remember correctly when looking at Pitt (I'm running out of google time). These are the names most people associate with PA.

 

None of these factor in room and board.

 

There's a lot that varies by state.

 

We're paying less out of pocket (our share) than all of the above except CC as their loans would cover that - however, one should factor in the room and board mine will have at their 4 year schools vs what we'd be paying to feed them at home. The loans my guys have are the same they would have with any of the options.

[Jane in NC]

I'm glad the article mentions that many of the private schools make the push to graduate students in four years. Faith mentioned a couple of colleges. I'd like to bring up some graduation numbers for two of these schools. The caveat here is that the stats are old, i.e. before the cutbacks of recent years.

 

According to the College Navigator at the federal report site IPEDS, 48% of an incoming freshman class at Michigan State University will graduate in four years. 77% will graduate in six years. Granted, some students may transfer to other institutions and graduate in a timely fashion. These numbers obviously cannot be provided.

 

Now look at Bryn Mawr. 80% of freshmen will graduate in four years. The graduation rate of the incoming class after six years is 87%.

 

I am not going to suggest that students cannot graduate from state unis in four years or less. We are surrounded by anecdotal stories of successful students. One of my son's friends is graduating in May after receiving her AA (two years of dual enrollment in high school, one year full time), followed by two years at the regional university. It was a careful dance to insure that she had the specific credits--but she is not in a major where certain courses have long lists of prerequisites.

 

Obviously everyone's mileage will vary. My message has always been do not look at the sticker price of private colleges and walk away. One of the new features at IPEDS is called "net price". It gives the average cost of the college per year for people within certain income levels.

[3andme]

Faithmanor, Bryn Mawr is an all women's college at the undergraduate level. Maybe I misread this but it appears you are considering it for ds. Haverford, a nearby LAC is very good and coed. They have an exchange agreement where they can take courses with Bryn Mawr and Swarthmore.

[mum]

We are in the middle of it all with 2 graduating high school this year. One is going to state U on a FULL RIDE!!! An academic one. WHOOOO-HOOOO. We are blessed. Other child is looking at private U, who is offering more aid that the full ride at state U comes to, but that is still only a portion of the total price for that school.So though private schools are offering more aid if you look at the numbers only, if you look at it as a percentage of the total cost then you still might do better at state U. Another thing to think about is that at state U., child is surrounded by many who are in the same socioeconomic group as they are, and I know (having gone to private U. myself, as well as speaking to many others) that at private U. kids are surrounded by many who are much wealthier, and it shows in lifestyle-cars they drive, trips they take, etc. So that can be hard if your child can't participate in some things, eg travel abroad, because they don't have similar money.

 

But, the biggest factor should be, what program does child want to do, and where are they best served doing that? Our state U. has great program in what that child wants to do and undergrads get to do projects and interact with professors one on one all the time. I had family member graduate from big name private U in last couple years and that wasn't the case there.

 

My advice is don't listen to the hype, go and do the research for yourself, so you know the real answer based on where you are and what your child wants to do.

 

We also sat our children down and told them that we intended for them to get 4 year degree, and we didn't intend to go into debt for it, nor did we intend for them to go into debt for it. So they needed to work hard and look for something that was affordable. We would like to teach them to live within their means, and what better lesson to start on than choosing a college that can be paid for through scholarships, federal money, working minimally and an attainable price to begin with.

 

My BEST wishes for all you who are looking right now.

[FaithManor]

Faithmanor, Bryn Mawr is an all women's college at the undergraduate level. Maybe I misread this but it appears you are considering it for ds. Haverford, a nearby LAC is very good and coed. They have an exchange agreement where they can take courses with Bryn Mawr and Swarthmore.

 

 

Thanks! I hadn't had my first cup of coffee yet and had a list of colleges on my right hand side that were recommended for their archaeology programs by a museum docent...I know I've probably already vetted Bryn Mawr and for obvious reasons scrapped it, but a night of sleeplessness and NO COFFEE completely short-circuited my brain! :lol: I'll have to get the list out later and figure out which P.A. LAC is on the list that he'd expressed interest in....I've got one in that bunch...maybe it's Haverford...I'm still running on only one cup of coffee and have to go meet up with some irate parents because I gave their dear angel a C+ on a chemistry assignment; I think I was being generous. However, they feel the child has been cheated by a mean spirited teacher. So, I have to go listen to them rant and rave while I smile blithely. Thankfully, I will not have to say a word. The principal has already decided to "have it out" with these people since they COMPLAIN about every grade under perfect A that their less than motivated child graces the faculty desks with and therefore, I'm in no danger...well, other than the danger of being unhappy about giving up an hour of ACT prep with my own son and five other students in order to listen to this nonsense and all without another pot of coffee! I think I hate today!!!!!!!!!

 

Again, thanks for pointing that out. Wow do I need some sleep!

 

Faith

[wapiti]

Thanks for the link! I tried, in vain, to explain this to some relatives. The student in question applied only to state schools (in spite of the fact that ultimately, he was awarded, and is on, a rotc scholarship). The student's younger sibling is likely to have test scores that could make selective schools a good possibility, so this link may come in handy.

[Gwen in VA]

Much to our surprise, my kids' MOST EXPENSIVE college options were state universities!

 

People ask us how we can afford to send our kids to private colleges. I've given up trying to explain that for us the private college route was less expensive!

[Trilliums]

Recently Janice posted a poll with a link to a tuition calculator:

 

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=351947&highlight=tuition

 

 

(yippie! I embedded a link!)

 

After playing around with the calculator a bit, I could see that private schools with average scholarship contributions would be equal to or less than our local state U. The main consideration though, is room and board. If the kids attend the local U and live at home, costs are reduced considerable. Room and board are figured in at almost 2xs the state tuition cost.

 

Still, hard to know how accurate that calculator is...of course that was the whole point of her poll, to try to gauge its accuracy among hsers.

[Halftime Hope]

And then there is another complicating factor. Some private schools have tuition locks, whereby you can, for a nominal fee (less than the tuition for one class in several schools I've seen) lock the cost of tuition at the cost their freshman year. IOW, when tuition rises each year, theirs will not. Dd's school does this for every student at no charge.

 

At our local state uni the increases have averaged 8% per year for the last twelve years.

 

Students who are offered a specified dollar amount scholarship that is supposed to cover everything for four years might find out that it is inadequate by the time tuition costs increase every year.

[Elisabeth in IL]

I thought this was interesting in light of this discussion ..... http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/1496069662001/

[Lori D.]

Students who are offered a specified dollar amount scholarship that is supposed to cover everything for four years might find out that it is inadequate by the time tuition costs increase every year.

 

 

We know several students who are in this bind at the local public university -- received full tuition scholarships about 3-4 years ago when tuition was about $5000/year; now it is nearly $10,000/year. Tough to have to unexpectedly have to end up having to decide whether you're willing to end up paying $8000-$10,000 for that 4-year degree that you THOUGHT would be "free" tuition-wise -- or switch schools. :(

[mum]

Still, when it's all said and done, $10,000 for a 4 year degree wouldn't be bad, and I'm guessing that unless there's big scholarship money involved, then that is going to be the similar where ever they go. There isn't much 'free' college out there.

[readinmom]

I can remember sitting through an information session at one of the University of California campuses with oldest ds. Talk about sticker shock! I came home and told dh that there were small private colleges that cost less than our state schools.

 

We get "0" on the financial aid help, even with dh being out of work for two years now. When you have the scholarship papers, read carefully. Ds got a generous amount of tuition paid at small private school, only to lose it last year. (budget cuts) He is now working, weighing his options. It does not look promising.

[flyingiguana]

 

But the other two, Anthropology/Archaeology for eldest and Zoology/Herpetology for middle (they will need at least master's degrees and one is definitely already planning for a PH.D), I just can't see the feasibility of $40,000.00 a year U who may award them $25,000.00 in scholarships (which would be very generous) and leave them needing to borrow $11,500.00 each year knowing we were pitching in the other $3500.00 in loans and then borrowing for grad school too! Scary....it's not as though anthropologists/archaeologists and herpetologist (research) are raking in the big bucks. It could easily morph into $100,000.00 in student loans for each by the time they are done with school. It makes my eyes twitch.

 

 

 

Are you seeing indications that these fields won't get grad school assistantships? Back when I was in grad school, the zoology students were all supported with assistantships and tuition waivers. I don't know about archaeology.

[Halftime Hope]

We know several students who are in this bind at the local public university -- received full tuition scholarships about 3-4 years ago when tuition was about $5000/year; now it is nearly $10,000/year. Tough to have to unexpectedly have to end up having to decide whether you're willing to end up paying $8000-$10,000 for that 4-year degree that you THOUGHT would be "free" tuition-wise -- or switch schools. :(

 

First, I'm going to preface my comments by saying that I don't mean to sound ungrateful, because we are very thankful for every bit of money my students don't have to come up with themselves.

 

Scholarship money seems to come with all kind of strings attached, and it behooves students to know exactly what the strings are.

 

I have three students and we have looked very closely at merit scholarship programs from seven (?) institutions (the "serious contender" schools after others were winnowed out), ranging from big to small, public to private, so I'm not identifying any particular school. We've found strings attached in many ways:

 

- the first string (or limit) was the one I mentioned in my previous post, inflation diminishing the buying power of a scholarship for a $ amount.

 

- one school had a big ticket scholarship, not guaranteed. Fine print: student must live on campus all four years to be awarded that money.

 

- another had stackable scholarships that amounted to 80% of tuition, (multiple award letters in hand,) but in a conversation with the adcom who was vetting eligibility for another scholarship, we found out that school policy caps total merit aid at a $ amount that was significantly less. At this school, the proverbial right hand and left hand did not know what had been offered. Their $ cap was not in writing in their printed or online materials but was well-known to the adcom.

 

- one school had all their merit scholarships renewable for four years but tied to a certain GPA. The cummulative GPA required for those scholarships to renew on a yearly basis was 3.x for the first two years, then it went UP for the junior and senior years to 3.x + .25. I kid you not. Mathematically, a student would have to keep at least the higher GPA in the early years to renew the scholarship for the junior and senior years. In addition, the last two years' classes were much more difficult in one of the majors we were looking at, so in practicality, a student would almost have to have an even higher GPA to make up for lower junior and senior years grades. It was almost as though the school wanted to set it up so students would be enticed by the early money then "on the hook" to finish their degree. At that school, if the student fell below the required GPA, the scholarship money dropped to zero, not to the next lower $/GPA level.

 

- one school said that for a particular difficult field of study, they considered 12 hours to be full time and encouraged freshmen to sign up only for that number of hours. In the fine print, they required 27 hours in the scholastic year to renew the scholarship; in reality that meant that students would need to plan on summer school or forfeit the scholarship.

 

- another had a large renewable merit scholarship that would pay a percentage of tuition, but the fine print said only for eight long semesters, not for summer school, and not for any of the school's study abroad programs, because study abroad would involve tuition paid to another institution. So if a student wanted to study abroad one of the semesters, it would be entirely their own money, not the school's.

 

My point: it is OK for there to be strings attached to scholarship money, but a student should make a *fully informed* choice.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Valerie(TX)

[FaithManor]

Are you seeing indications that these fields won't get grad school assistantships? Back when I was in grad school, the zoology students were all supported with assistantships and tuition waivers. I don't know about archaeology.

 

 

Well, the big issue is budget cuts. Many of the research schools are hurting in this regard and as a result, the number of assistantships are lower than they used to be thus increasing competition for them. Therefore, we are very worried about college debt for the undergrad degree when there are a dwindling number of assistanships/tuition waivers on the horizon. Maybe we'll get lucky and things will pick up economically by the time they head to grad school. However, that's not a gamble we are likely to encourage them to take. We will likely still fall on the side of fiscally conservative for the undergrad program.

 

Faith