S/O of Bible Copywork....Sin

[ezrabean2005]

I know there are many Christians on this board and I have a question for them. This is a genuine question that I don't wish to offend with.

 

Why do you say that you "sin"? From what I know, in your teachings, Christ died for all sins. So even when you make a mistake, how is that a sin? Isn't that already gone? Isn't sin already gone from your life if you believe this? If not, what did Christ do exactly?

 

Again, this is a genuine question and I don't want to come off as snarky or sarcastic. I am very curious about this belief.

[PeacefulChaos]

I know there are many Christians on this board and I have a question for them. This is a genuine question that I don't wish to offend with.

 

Why do you say that you "sin"? From what I know, in your teachings, Christ died for all sins. So even when you make a mistake, how is that a sin? Isn't that already gone? Isn't sin already gone from your life if you believe this? If not, what did Christ do exactly?

 

Again, this is a genuine question and I don't want to come off as snarky or sarcastic. I am very curious about this belief.

 

We say we sin based on the definition of sin from the Bible and what sin is.

Yes, Christ died for all sins. Both those already committed and those that haven't been committed yet. We still need forgiveness- his dying for them doesn't make them go away in the sense that we are then free to do whatever we please because it is no longer sin - his dying for them keeps us from paying the price for them once we confess them to God and ask for forgiveness. We don't have to make sin offerings like the Old Testament Jews did, for example. Also, the Bible states that the 'wages of sin is death' - by Christ dying for our sins, we aren't going to die for lack of sin offerings.

I'm not sure if what I'm saying is making sense - I'm just kind of writing what comes to my head. :) But basically, Christ dying was so that we can have forgiveness, and He was the ultimate sacrifice. He died for our sins so that we don't have to.

I'm probably forgetting pieces of it (maybe lots!), but that's it in general.

[TXBeth]

Christ's death did not stop the existence of sin; it took the penalty for sin. So we still sin, but we are no longer condemned to hell because of that sin. Christ's death made a way for us to be reconciled with God.

[Dustybug]

Christ died to save us from the punishment for our sins, not to stop us from sinning, because then we would be perfect and Jesus is the only perfect man who has or ever will walk this earth. As the pp mentioned, it is about the forgiveness for our sins, not the eradication of them.

[raceNzanesmom]

:iagree:What they said.

[ezrabean2005]

So Christ died to be punished for sins. Now if you sin, you are not punished. Right?

So then, how is it a sin if there is no punishment? Isn't it just another choice?

 

Obviously, each person would want to make good choices to not injure themselves or others, but wouldn't it just be another choice since there are no eternal repercussions?

 

How does this go along with knowing God? Are they related? Is the point just to be forgiven from sin? Or is it something else?

 

Sorry if I'm using the wrong words. I'm not very familiar with the exact wording that is used. I hope my questions make sense.

[PeacefulChaos]

So Christ died to be punished for sins. Now if you sin, you are not punished. Right?

So then, how is it a sin if there is no punishment? Isn't it just another choice?

 

Obviously, each person would want to make good choices to not injure themselves or others, but wouldn't it just be another choice since there are no eternal repercussions?

 

How does this go along with knowing God? Are they related? Is the point just to be forgiven from sin? Or is it something else?

 

Sorry if I'm using the wrong words. I'm not very familiar with the exact wording that is used. I hope my questions make sense.

 

I believe there are eternal repercussions. Just because the forgiveness is there, doesn't mean everyone automatically gets it. We have to accept it and actually believe.

Here's the breakdown of what my beliefs are:

If I were to go through life, and be a pretty good person but never believe in God, never accept Christ as Savior, etc, I would not live eternally with him - 'go to heaven', so to speak.

If I were to go through life and murder 27 people and never believe in God, never accept Christ as Savior, etc, I would not live eternally with him.

If I were to go through life and murder 27 people but then come to believe in God, accept Christ as Savior, and ask for forgiveness of my sins, I would live eternally with him.

Etc.

Forgiveness of sins is free to anyone. But if we just say, oh, yeah, we're forgiven, but don't believe in God or have faith in him, it really probably doesn't mean much. If we don't believe in God, and don't believe Christ died to save us, and don't accept that Christ is our Savior, etc, then this forgiveness doesn't mean anything anyway.

That is a very basic rundown. :) There are more intricacies to it, obviously. But that's what I believe, in a nutshell.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Sin is an offense against God who is holy. The payment for sin is eternal separation from God - death. During our lifetime, that death is a spiritual death - one analogy would be a wall between you and God. At the point of physical death, that separation becomes permanent and eternal. Jesus Christ paid for sin by dying both spiritually (He was separated from God the Father for a time) and physically. Because He was sinless, He was able to pay for our sins rather than it just going on His own account. Because He is God, He was able to conquer death.

 

A person who believes that good news (the meaning of "gospel") applies to himself, has a number of invisible things happen to him. The main invisible thing is that the wall between him and God is broken down and he is now part of God's family.

 

But God is still holy. And while we are now part of God's family, we still have a sinful nature and make sinful choices. Those sinful choices don't remove us from God's family but they do the spiritual equivalent of slamming a door between us and God. When we sin, we are no longer plugged into the power of the Holy Spirit (another one of those invisible things we received at salvation) but are plugged into the power of our sinful nature for a time. To get back into fellowship with God, we confess our sins (1 John 1:9) and because of what Jesus had done way back on the cross, our relationship is restored again.

 

There is a whole lot of theology and doctrine from a whole lot of verses behind what I just said. I don't have the time to look them up. (Other Christians will have different explanations based on the theology/doctrine of their church. I think there are ways to look at the verses to see what it says but that's not a direction I want to go.) So - read this with the caveat that this is what I believe the Bible says on these topics.

[milovany]

So Christ died to be punished for sins. Now if you sin, you are not punished. Right? So then, how is it a sin if there is no punishment? Isn't it just another choice?

 

First I would say that not all Christian traditions believe Christ died as a punishment for sin. Some believe He died to conquer death.

 

Obviously, each person would want to make good choices to not injure themselves or others, but wouldn't it just be another choice since there are no eternal repercussions?

 

The repercussions of sin are in this life. The goal of the Christian life is to become united with Christ. When we sin, we harm that communion in the now. The focus on Christianity isn't just in the future, but a lot of it is in the NOW.

 

How does this go along with knowing God? Are they related? Is the point just to be forgiven from sin? Or is it something else?

 

The point is to be in union with God. Part of this is receiving the forgiveness He offers. But there's more to it than that, like living the life of faith, being a part of His church and participating in the sacraments, praying with the saints of the ages, giving alms, etc. Things He has given us to aid us in communion with Him.

 

Sorry if I'm using the wrong words. I'm not very familiar with the exact wording that is used. I hope my questions make sense.

 

Questions are good! Here's an article that I really appreciate, about how the original church viewed sin and its effects/consequences.

Edited February 23, 2012 by milovaný

[ezrabean2005]

So is the purpose of the whole thing to "not sin"? Or to put it another way...it doesn't sound like it has much to do with knowing God as much as not sinning. Is this right?

 

Thanks for your help - there are people I know IRL that don't understand my questions. I hope I'm not asking wrong.

[milovany]

So is the purpose of the whole thing to "not sin"? Or to put it another way...it doesn't sound like it has much to do with knowing God as much as not sinning. Is this right?

 

That's the point I'm trying to make (although you probably posted this post before you saw my post just before yours). The purpose IS communion with God. Being forgiven of sins is part of that, but there's much more. It's an organic whole that encompasses it all, interactively, with communion with God the goal. This is the belief in Eastern Christianity; I can't speak for other Christian faith traditions. Others can step in with their replies.

 

Hope that helps!

Edited February 23, 2012 by milovaný

[ezrabean2005]

First I would say that not all Christian traditions believe Christ died as a punishment for sin. Some believe He died to conquer death.

 

What does this mean - "conquer death"?

 

The repercussions of sin are in this life. The goal of the Christian life is to become united with Christ. When we sin, we harm that communion in the now. The focus on Christianity isn't just in the future, but a lot of it is in the NOW.

 

The point is to be in union with God. Part of this is receiving the forgiveness He offers. But there's more to it than that, like living the life of faith, being a part of His church and participating in the sacraments, praying with the saints of the ages, giving alms, etc. Things He has given us to aid us in communion with Him.

 

What does it mean to be in union with God? What does that look like?

 

Questions are good! Here's an article that I really appreciate, about how the original church viewed sin and its effects/consequences.

 

Thanks for understanding my motives. The link didn't work, but I'd be interested in reading it.

.

[milovany]

What does this mean - "conquer death"?

 

Death is destroyed. Death has no more power over us. Our bodies still die physically, but we will be resurrected both physically and spiritually -- just like Christ was. There's a wonderful icon in the Eastern church of the Resurrection of Christ -- He's standing on a cross, pulling people out of the grave.

 

What does it mean to be in union with God? What does that look like?

 

Union with God is being in relationship with Him in all ways, both physical and spiritual. For a lot of us (not all), it means (for one thing) to receive the Eucharist, which is bread and wine which has been mystically changed to be the body and blood of Christ. Receiving this gift from Him unites us with Christ physically. Another part of communion with God is communion with His Body, the church. We commune with God by communion with others in the church. In these things, and others, we are living our faith in the here and now, our communion with God is now; we're not waiting for the great "bye and bye" as a somewhat recent hymn says.

 

Thanks for understanding my motives. The link didn't work, but I'd be interested in reading it.

 

My apologies. I fixed it in my post, but here it is again. It's called "The View of Sin in the Early Church."

Edited February 23, 2012 by milovaný

[PeacefulChaos]

So is the purpose of the whole thing to "not sin"? Or to put it another way...it doesn't sound like it has much to do with knowing God as much as not sinning. Is this right?

 

Thanks for your help - there are people I know IRL that don't understand my questions. I hope I'm not asking wrong.

 

No, the purpose isn't to 'not sin'. Everyone sins.

The purpose is to know God, to follow Him and have faith in Him. To live eternally with Him. (Heaven, etc)

Honestly, 'not sinning' really has nothing to do with anything. It's all about being forgiven by God and then believing in Him and walking with Him, both during our life here on earth and thereafter.

[gardenmom5]

I know there are many Christians on this board and I have a question for them. This is a genuine question that I don't wish to offend with.

 

Why do you say that you "sin"? From what I know, in your teachings, Christ died for all sins. So even when you make a mistake, how is that a sin? Isn't that already gone? Isn't sin already gone from your life if you believe this? If not, what did Christ do exactly?

 

Again, this is a genuine question and I don't want to come off as snarky or sarcastic. I am very curious about this belief.

 

mistakes (e.g. grabbing the salt instead of the sugar and ruining a dish) aren't the same as "sin". (which are violations of eternal law.)

We believe Jesus atoned to pay the demands of justice for all sin, BUT, we also believe we must sincerely exercise faith in Him, and be constantly striving to be obedient to the commandments of God in order to recieve a remission/forgiveness of our sins. (eta: it is adam's sin no one will be punished for.)

 

It is an ongoing and constant process of refinement. just saying "i believe", then going out and living a sinful life anyway doesn't get you forgiveness if you aren't sincerely trying.

 

e.g.

the poem of the children asked to do something by their mother. (Honeslty, I can't even remember enough to do a search).

two say "yes mother," and give all the pretty words about how obedient they are - but never do anything they were asked. and one who doesn't give any pretty agreeable words, but goes and does what she is asked.

 

which child is obedient? (king lear is a great illistration of this concept)

Edited February 23, 2012 by gardenmom5

[mlbuchina]

I know there are many Christians on this board and I have a question for them. This is a genuine question that I don't wish to offend with.

 

Why do you say that you "sin"? From what I know, in your teachings, Christ died for all sins. So even when you make a mistake, how is that a sin? Isn't that already gone? Isn't sin already gone from your life if you believe this? If not, what did Christ do exactly?

 

Again, this is a genuine question and I don't want to come off as snarky or sarcastic. I am very curious about this belief.

 

I say that I sin because I still do things that are against, or opposing to, God. Such as, He has said that we should not lie. If I choose to tell a lie (even a "little" one), then I have gone against Him, and have sinned. Making a mistake is not necessarily a sin.

 

Christ died, was buried, and was resurrected on the third day to pay for the "wages" of (or price of, or punishment for), sin. The penalty for sinning, or going against God, is Hell.

 

No, sin is not gone because I still live here on earth in my "flesh" body. That part of me is still capable of going against God. However, when I believed and trusted in Jesus and His finished work on the cross, I was given a pardon from that penalty. ALL the sins I did do, and will do, was forgiven. I can now live in freedom with the knowledge that I get to be with God and Jesus in Heaven when I die, and not be in Hell.

 

This, of course, leads to the question: So, does that mean I can just sin all I want too now that my penalty has been taken from me?

 

NO! LOL I don't want to do those things (not that I can't or won't), that are against my Heavenly Father. I want to do better and better because of the love He showered on me. I want to read His words and learn more about Him, so that I can be more like Him. But, praise be to God, when I do screw up, I don't have to worry that I am going to be d*mded, or that I am going to struck down, or that someone I love is going to suffer because of something I did wrong.

 

I must say, the Apostle Paul talks about this soooo much better than I can. LOL I would gently suggest reading his letters to perhaps get a better insight. AND, don't be afraid of asking lots and lots of questions!

[ktgrok]

I have always been taught that to sin is to "miss the mark". It means to go in a direction that is not what God wants from us.

 

In a practice game of darts, any darts that miss the mark are not scored, because it is just practice. No penalties are assessed. But the dart still missed. It isn't what you were trying to do. And you should work on getting better.

[Celia]

I know there are many Christians on this board and I have a question for them. This is a genuine question that I don't wish to offend with.

 

Why do you say that you "sin"? From what I know, in your teachings, Christ died for all sins. So even when you make a mistake, how is that a sin? Isn't that already gone? Isn't sin already gone from your life if you believe this? If not, what did Christ do exactly?

 

Again, this is a genuine question and I don't want to come off as snarky or sarcastic. I am very curious about this belief.

 

I see Christ as our representative, not as a substitute. He didn't die instead of us, he died for us. When we are baptised into Christ, we are figuratively "putting on" Christ. Through baptism, we're figuratively putting ourselves to death, and being raised into a new life. So, it's something we actually participate in, taking up our cross daily and following him, continually trying to put our sinful desires to death, and to live in a way that is pleasing to God. Salvation then, isn't something we're owed as if our sins never happened, or don't continue to happen, we still need forgiveness for sins. And should we participate in Christ's death, then we shall also participate in his resurrection.

 

The parable of the unjust steward comes to mind

Matt. 18

18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

 

My point that this highlights participation. No one said they'd pay the debt for them, the debt was actually forgiven. But, the debtor had to participate in doing the same, which he didn't, so his debt that was initially pardoned was no longer.

 

Just editing to add on a wee bit more here, because I don't think I directly answered the question of what Christ exactly did. What he did was live a sinless life, which is something none of us can do. He condemned sin in the flesh, and by doing so, his death declared God's righteousness. And God's righteousness was also declared in his resurrection, as he did no sin. Through his life, he perfectly showed for the character of his father, which is what we're called to do, though we do it imperfectly. God's plan is that his glory (which is his character, as shown in Exodus) should cover the earth, and that would be made possible by many who reflect the glory of God by manifesting his character as Christ did.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Celia