Is there an educational value to projects/presentations?

[Dmmetler]

I'm starting to wonder, listening to the PS moms at dance, if I'm missing something in DD's schooling-because it seems like these kids have a project of some form, to do at home and present at school, practically every month. So this month, the girls are all researching some person for Black history month, making timelines of his/her life, writing paragraphs about them, and then dressing up in costume to present this person to their class.

 

My DD regularly does narrations related to history, and she's quite good at that, and reads a lot of books about people, and we do big, global timelines, but I can't say she's ever done something like that. Is this something worth doing? She regularly comes up with ideas like "Let's build Mount Olympus out of Legos" or "Let's mummify a stuffed animal, make items for the tomb out of clay, build a cardboard box pyramid, decorate it with heiroglyphics, put toy food inside...."-but I've never had her write about what she's done in these projects.

 

Basically-I want reassurance. Is what we're doing enough?

[Ester Maria]

Yes, it is enough, and no, there is no need for projects of the kind they do in PS to meet your educational goals.

 

I do not do them. At all. I do "business", strictly academics, no costumes anything and no presentations of that type. Research and presentations, yes, but in a more serious vein and at an older age. Generations of kids grew up without those types of activities and were educated just fine.

[melissel]

Yes, it is enough, and no, there is no need for projects of the kind they do in PS to meet your educational goals.

 

I do not do them. At all. I do "business", strictly academics, no costumes anything and no presentations of that type. Research and presentations, yes, but in a more serious vein and at an older age. Generations of kids grew up without those types of activities and were educated just fine.

 

Does this also go for coloring and crafts? Please say yes! I'm the least crafty person on the planet, and I hate coloring pages, and I feel terrible about it all the time!

 

ETA: I hang out with people who like to quote this: "I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand." They're all the very Waldorfy, crafty types. It makes me paranoid that I'm not doing enough too!

Edited February 15, 2012 by melissel

[Laurie4b]

Yes, what you are doing is enough. However, there is a kind of writing that would be super to practice that would involve writing up what she does in one of her "projects" occasionally. She could dictate to you if it would otherwise make it onerous to her.

 

However, there is quite a bit of value in doing presentations in front of a group. That can wait until middle school, though some kids do better if they've been doing it. Music recitals, being in a play, making a speech to family & friends are all some things that aren't that hard to work in.

[OrdinaryTime]

I would assume she is completely fine as far as projects go. Presentations are a bit different than just projects. I do think it is important to be able to speak well and comfortably in front of others. I think the younger you start, the better (excepting kids who are naturally extremely shy). If you haven't done any type of public speaking, even just in front of grandparents or neighbors, I would.

[Karen in CO]

I think that the reports and presentations done in ps are fulfilling the same "need" as your dd is having fulfilled by doing narrations and coming up with her own crafts. These are just an institutionalized version of the same type of output. It is a way for the kids to research something, do something, then show what they've learned.

[MomatHWTK]

The projects probably help reinforce the learning and (hopefully) involve the parents in the child's schooling. By including visual and audio components, the presentations would also benefit children with a variety of learning styles. Not everyone can or will succeed with a memorization-based model. In addition, making a presentation to the class allows the rest of the class to learn the information from a peer's perspective. We do the same thing here, only it's called the big kids teaching the younger ones. ;)

 

Finally, there is a public speaking component. Some children are natural performers and others are not. Learning to present information to others in a way that is engaging and effective is a valuable skill. In your hs you do this via narration. I wouldn't say it's harmful to not have presentations, but it probably wouldn't hurt to allow a child to research the dress or customs of an era now and then and put on a show. ;)

[JennyD]

She regularly comes up with ideas like "Let's build Mount Olympus out of Legos" or "Let's mummify a stuffed animal, make items for the tomb out of clay, build a cardboard box pyramid, decorate it with heiroglyphics, put toy food inside...."-but I've never had her write about what she's done in these projects.

?

 

I think that projects can be very valuable, but I have also concluded that the projects that my son comes up with on his own -- very much like the ones you describe here -- are exponentially more educational than the ones I devise. So while we rarely do projects or crafts of part of our official 'school' time, I also make sure that there is enough time, space, and materials for my son to do these kinds of things on his own (and sometimes with my limited assistance). Indeed, this is the big reason why I actively don't want to do a long formal school day -- I want him to have the 2 hours to build a paper model of the Cassini spacecraft or build a square root machine or do whatever it is he does with the eleventy-thousand rolls of Scotch tape he goes through every week.

 

As for presentations, I've never thought about tying them to projects, but for a while we have had a weekly family 'book club' in which all members of the family who can understand the basic concept (i.e., older than about 2.5 or 3) take turns standing up and delivering a short spiel about a book that he or she has read/been read over the past week, followed by questions from the audience. DH came up with this, actually, and it's proven to be a really fun family ritual.

Edited February 15, 2012 by JennyD

[regentrude]

Yes, it is enough, and no, there is no need for projects of the kind they do in PS to meet your educational goals.

 

I do not do them. At all. I do "business", strictly academics, no costumes anything and no presentations of that type. Research and presentations, yes, but in a more serious vein and at an older age. Generations of kids grew up without those types of activities and were educated just fine.

:iagree:

 

Oral presentations are useful because kids need to learn to speak in front of an audience - but narrations can serve the purpose at this age. Later, more formal presentations should take the place.

Costumes, dioramas in shoe boxes, "projects" help alleviate boredom and break up a monotonous seven hour school day. They do not IMO contribute to any higher level of understanding.

Neither does the famous mummified chicken. (running and ducking)

[melissel]

Costumes, dioramas in shoe boxes, "projects" help alleviate boredom and break up a monotonous seven hour school day. They do not IMO contribute to any higher level of understanding.

 

I always knew dioramas were some kind of evil plot by bored schoolteachers :glare:

[melissel]

I never made a diorama. I guess I was deprived. :D

 

Lucky! I didn't have parents that would help with that sort of thing. How is an 8-year-old supposed to know where to get the supplies for that? We didn't have Michael's on every corner in 1982!

 

(Clearly, I am still harboring some resentment...)

[swellmomma]

ETA: I hang out with people who like to quote this: "I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand." They're all the very Waldorfy, crafty types. It makes me paranoid that I'm not doing enough too!

 

I solidly believe in this, I am not waldorfy at all, but I do a lot of projects and hands on things with my kids as a result

However, there is quite a bit of value in doing presentations in front of a group. That can wait until middle school, though some kids do better if they've been doing it. Music recitals, being in a play, making a speech to family & friends are all some things that aren't that hard to work in.

 

I would assume she is completely fine as far as projects go. Presentations are a bit different than just projects. I do think it is important to be able to speak well and comfortably in front of others. I think the younger you start, the better (excepting kids who are naturally extremely shy). If you haven't done any type of public speaking, even just in front of grandparents or neighbors, I would.

 

Finally, there is a public speaking component. Some children are natural performers and others are not. Learning to present information to others in a way that is engaging and effective is a valuable skill. In your hs you do this via narration. I wouldn't say it's harmful to not have presentations, but it probably wouldn't hurt to allow a child to research the dress or customs of an era now and then and put on a show. ;)

 

:iagree:I completely agree with all of the above quotes. This is why I did speech competitions when younger. Why my siblings and parents to this day still participate in toastmasters (a public speaking group) etc. 4-H has a public speaking day as well. Being able to confidently stand in front of a group and present a topic or idea without waving, engaging your audience etc is a very important skill imo and a huge benefit professionally when the kids are grown and in the workplace.

 

You do not have to do huge elaborate presentations, but standing up in front of the group (especially if the group is different than just mom and siblings) to recite a peice of memorywork, or to showcase an idea etc is beneficial. Participation in a science fair would meet this. Acting on stage or doing a music recital can meet this. Being part of a debate team is an excellent way to develop this skill.

[swellmomma]

I always knew dioramas were some kind of evil plot by bored schoolteachers :glare:

 

Haha and yet my kids have begged that I make sure to include creating dioramas when we do Zoology 2 swimming creatures.

[Rhonda in TX]

The one advantage to projects is that your child will learn how to break down an assignment into parts and get it done over a period of time. This is a valuable skill for a work environment where a boss will expect you to get something done by a deadline.

[melissel]

I solidly believe in this, I am not waldorfy at all, but I do a lot of projects and hands on things with my kids as a result

 

See, and my kids won't do hands-on projects or crafts if they're in anyway related to school. They went crazy with Valentine's Day crafts and they beg for crafty things, but if I try to put together something for, say, SOTW, they lose interest! I've struggled with this for years. I never know what to do about it!

[melissel]

Haha and yet my kids have begged that I make sure to include creating dioramas when we do Zoology 2 swimming creatures.

 

Weirdos! :glare: (:tongue_smilie:)

 

My parents didn't help me with school projects either. We didn't really get tons of them though.

 

Ugh, we did. We got no real guidance from the teachers about any of it either, and my parents were totally hands off. Hmm, I wonder if that all contributes to my craft issues?! :001_huh: Sometimes I actually get a little sick feeling in my stomach if I think I'll have to design or set up a craft! Great, now I may need handwork-and-papercraft therapy *sigh*

[regentrude]

ETA: I hang out with people who like to quote this: "I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand." They're all the very Waldorfy, crafty types. It makes me paranoid that I'm not doing enough too!

 

But that depends on your learning objective!

If you want your child to learn a specific skill, such as building something, of course they have to "do" it. If you want them to learn how to work math problems, of course they need to be the ones who do them (not have them explained or watch somebody do them).

But building a replica of a pyramid with 21th century materials does not teach you much about the Egyptians.

 

My kids run fast if I want to do "hands on " projects. I was excited about building the cell model from jello and candy, and they asked why they could not just read about it in a book.

[melissel]

But that depends on your learning objective!

If you want your child to learn a specific skill, such as building something, of course they have to "do" it. If you want them to learn how to work math problems, of course they need to be the ones who do them (not have them explained or watch somebody do them).

But building a replica of a pyramid with 21th century materials does not teach you much about the Egyptians.

 

My kids run fast if I want to do "hands on " projects. I was excited about building the cell model from jello and candy, and they asked why they could not just read about it in a book.

 

Thank you so much. I like your kids. Can I come hang out at your house?!

[swellmomma]

See, and my kids won't do hands-on projects or crafts if they're in anyway related to school. They went crazy with Valentine's Day crafts and they beg for crafty things, but if I try to put together something for, say, SOTW, they lose interest! I've struggled with this for years. I never know what to do about it!

 

I think it all depends on the kids. For your kids projects are not a good fit so they would not get anything out of it. My kids prefer projects to any otehr form of schooling. ANd given that 1 has visual processing disorder, 1 has auditory processing disorder and 3 have adhd plus other issues. Doing project really has proven to be the only way they "get it" Projects for me do not need to be over the top things, we do lapbooking, and build stuff (displays/dioramas/models), do related crafts, etc. Because of this love of projects SOTW was a huge hit, as is Time Travelers stuff, lots of science kits, etc They are kinestic learners for sure so even things like HWOT and AAS that have more components to them not just reading and writing are what work best here. My kids could never use a program like CLE that was just reading and writing for example, it wouldn't work. For them they could not understand it if it was presented like that.

 

Now whether that is because of their learning style, their learning differences or because that is how I have done things with them since birth I don't know. I have always followed the belief that true understanding comes from doing not just talking/listening, or reading/writing.

[swellmomma]

Weirdos! :glare: (:tongue_smilie:)

 

 

 

Ugh, we did. We got no real guidance from the teachers about any of it either, and my parents were totally hands off. Hmm, I wonder if that all contributes to my craft issues?! :001_huh: Sometimes I actually get a little sick feeling in my stomach if I think I'll have to design or set up a craft! Great, now I may need handwork-and-papercraft therapy *sigh*

 

 

:lol: yeah my kids are weirdos, though not necessarily for the crafty stuff :lol: We are a crafty family over all. You should have seen the excitement over cub cars/scout semi's. They got their kits last Tuesday. The leader told the boys to make sure their wood was cut for last night and then they would take the meeting to assemble them. My boys arrived with their fully built and painted ready to race. They were over the top excited about it. It was my boys that asked to learn how to crochet first. The kids love tehir projects, handcrafts, general crafting, right on down to coloring (well DS8 is not a huge fan of coloring, he would rather draw not color someone else's picture). It all depends on teh kids, your goals, and what you are comfortable with.

 

I am terrified about teaching physics next year. I don't know how to teach it. Creating a paper mache model of the solar system, and teaching how to make a perfect souffle no problem. Teaching about physics is daunting. I feel the same way about grammar. I struggle with teaching it because I can not keep it straight myself beyond the 4 very basic parts of speech. After that I am a mess hoping to heaven's I am not screwing up completely. It's all in the personalities and goals (I still teach grammar and will teach physics but really wish I could do basket weaving or something instead. Heck in high school I dropped physics and took foods instead, so even back then I knew which way I prefered lol)

[OrdinaryTime]

I solidly believe in this, I am not waldorfy at all, but I do a lot of projects and hands on things with my kids as a result

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:iagree:I completely agree with all of the above quotes. This is why I did speech competitions when younger. Why my siblings and parents to this day still participate in toastmasters (a public speaking group) etc. 4-H has a public speaking day as well. Being able to confidently stand in front of a group and present a topic or idea without waving, engaging your audience etc is a very important skill imo and a huge benefit professionally when the kids are grown and in the workplace.

 

You do not have to do huge elaborate presentations, but standing up in front of the group (especially if the group is different than just mom and siblings) to recite a peice of memorywork, or to showcase an idea etc is beneficial. Participation in a science fair would meet this. Acting on stage or doing a music recital can meet this. Being part of a debate team is an excellent way to develop this skill.

 

My dad actually made all my siblings and I participate in 4-H's "Demonstrations and Illustrated Talks" competitions for at least four years, though most of us eventually liked it so much we did it all ten years of 4-H. We all started out in 3rd grade with our first talk. My dad had a terrible fear of public speaking when he was younger, though he was a total natural at speaking once he got past his stage fright. He was SO insistent we were all going to be comfortable in front of a crowd! It worked. All of us can talk in front of a crowd easily.

 

I've started with my kids already. Our co-op has a oral reports for each kid every few weeks. It has been one of the best things for our home school this year! We spend a few days reading on the topic. Then I walk my kindergarten and 1st grader through a basic writing process to develop a five minute presentation. Then they memorize it until it is down cold. We often work together to come up with visual aids that will also serve as memory cues. Our co-op has a 6 point checklist of presenations skills (eye contact, posture, projection, etc.), and my kids grade each other on these points when they practice at home. It's been fabulous; we learn researching skills, basic verbal organization skills, memorization practice, and presentation skills all at once!

 

My kids tend to be hams, which helps quite a bit.:tongue_smilie:

[Ester Maria]

Does this also go for coloring and crafts? Please say yes! I'm the least crafty person on the planet, and I hate coloring pages, and I feel terrible about it all the time!

Of course. :)

 

No need to feel terrible about it.

 

I am very much against craftsy stuff as a part of school. It is a hobby.

On the other hand, I am *pro* offering a technical arts education (focus on technique and skill, not "personal expression" - in a sense of actually systematically learning to draw as opposed to random creative projects). But costumes and acting out and coloring pages and time fillers of the kind, nope. Not as a part of school.

[JennyD]

:iagree:

 

Oral presentations are useful because kids need to learn to speak in front of an audience - but narrations can serve the purpose at this age. Later, more formal presentations should take the place.

Costumes, dioramas in shoe boxes, "projects" help alleviate boredom and break up a monotonous seven hour school day. They do not IMO contribute to any higher level of understanding.

Neither does the famous mummified chicken. (running and ducking)

 

As I said above, I think that the projects my 6yo spends hours independently on each day (mostly science-related) are invaluable to his education, even if I don't consider them 'school,' exactly. He has, for example, worked his way through building nearly all of paper spacecraft models that NASA has posted on their website. I'm not sure that it's 'higher understanding,' exactly -- he's 6 -- but he seems to be learning an awful lot about the differences between the various spacecraft, their purposes, their design, etc. I'm not sure that I would assign this to him, but OTOH it's definitely something that I don't want to crowd out of his day with more 'school,' either.

 

I will also add here that a supposedly throwaway project in 7th grade ("Pick a country, dress in costume, and teach the rest of the class something about this country") set me on an academic trajectory that continued in earnest for about 15 years and still strongly influences my work today (I teach philosophy at a university.)

 

So while I am the last person in the world to defend the IMO rightly-maligned shoe-box diorama, I agree with a PP that one of the great benefits of homeschooling is the ability to explore these different sorts of learning paths, often all at the same time.

Edited February 15, 2012 by JennyD

[Photo Ninja]

There can be value in a project. Some are time wasters, but others are valuable. I have seen many school assigned projects that are time wasters with very little educational value. But some are good. I weigh the projects I assign. I want educational value. This may be more than just research. I want to make sure that the learning involved outweighs the time investment.

 

I think the school is looking at presentations as learning to be comfortable speaking in front of a group, which is an important skill. But, I have not yet heard of a teacher actually teaching public speaking skills alongside the project and presentation (apart from a Speech course in high school). So while students in ps may have opportunity to speak and present before the class, they are not necessarily learning necessary public speaking skills.

 

You can teach public speaking skills to your dc, and your dc may already have opportunities to become comfortable being in front of a group. When they are older, in middle school and high school, they can have more opportunities to hone these skills with speech or debate, 4H, or through other venues.

[swellmomma]

My dad actually made all my siblings and I participate in 4-H's "Demonstrations and Illustrated Talks" competitions for at least four years, though most of us eventually liked it so much we did it all ten years of 4-H. We all started out in 3rd grade with our first talk. My dad had a terrible fear of public speaking when he was younger, though he was a total natural at speaking once he got past his stage fright. He was SO insistent we were all going to be comfortable in front of a crowd! It worked. All of us can talk in front of a crowd easily.

 

 

.:tongue_smilie:

 

This was me and why I feel it is so important. I was the not quite selective mute person in my classes growing up. We had those in front of the class presentations, my job was to actually create the presentation, then I let my teammates actually do the presentation while I just stood there. I was too scared to talk. Grade 8 we started to have to do speeches in front of the class in language arts. I couldn't get the words out. My teacher decided to humiliate me and told me to pretend there was a fire at the back of the class and I had to warn everyone to get them out. I couldn't say it loud enough despite his prompts. I finally ended up saying "you can all burn" and walked out of class. It became the joke in the class than for people to randomly say "fire" to me as they walked by me. I got mad. I was not going to take it. About 6 weeks later there was a speech contest to be held. I entered, I worked everyday after school with the teacher that was from our school (it was a community contest not hosted by the school itself). I shook like a leaf the whole time as I gave a speech about AIDS (this would have been in '91) I won 3rd place and got a bronze medal. Holy cow I talked in front of a group and won something. The next year I entered again, this time with a talk about suicide. I won 2nd place and got a silver medal. Between that speech in 8th and the speech in 9th my confidence grew 100%. I was able to present in front of the class (though I still shook like a leaf and my heart raced). After the 2nd place win the teacher that had been working with me onthis for 2 contests now recommended that I enter the school hosted contest. I did with the same suicide speech that I tweaked from the comments the judges gave me before. I won 1st place. From that contest my world opened up because I had so much confidence in my ability to talk in front of a group. I was recruited to be on the suicide prevention teen team. I toured local schools and gave presentations to classes about suicide prevention, warning signs etc. I was selected for my school's reach for the top team and was in public contests for that as well as on tv for it. I have been interviewed and quoted in books, I have appeared on tv in a parenting segment, I have had so many opportunities that I would not have had if I had never learned how to present in front of a group of people.

 

In high school, college and even now as an adult. I regularily present to groups on various topics. In things where we have groups (like an inservice where we do small group work and present) I am now the one doing the presentation while the others stand off to the side. I run committees and groups now because I have not problem being the spokesperson/mouth peice of a group. I have a presentation coming up for scouts. I have to present in front of the board for the neighboring town to explain why they should give enough funds to support our scout troop for the next several years so that we do not have to close down do to decreased enrollment. This presentation will determine if we will have a group anymore after this year. If I had not developed the confidence to stand up in front of a group and present my topic, field questions etc I would not have the ability to do this for our group.

 

These skills are not learned only in school, I certainly did not develop mine in school. But I think they are extremely important. For some kids it is never an issue nor is it something they have to work at. For others this is a skill like any other that needs to be explicitely taught and practiced. The one downside to homeschooling is it is harder to get that practice outside of mom and siblings.

[regentrude]

As I said above, I think that the projects my 6yo spends hours independently on each day (mostly science-related) are invaluable to his education, even if I don't consider them 'school,' exactly. He has, for example, worked his way through building nearly all of paper spacecraft models that NASA has posted on their website. I'm not sure that it's 'higher understanding,' exactly -- he's 6 -- but he seems to be learning an awful lot about the differences between the various spacecraft, their purposes, their design, etc. I'm not sure that I would assign this to him, but OTOH it's definitely something that I don't want to crowd out of his day with more 'school,' either.

 

I see this as an example of is what is meant by "children learn through play"

If the kids like to do stuff like this, sure by all means - that's why there is a lot of free time outside "school". But I would not assign these activities and I do not believe that building models is necessary for an understanding - for many kids, reading a book serves this purpose just fine.

 

That is NOT to say that activities outside of formal school can not be educational

[Virg]

My twins are with a previous poster's children. Any school-related art project/craft they rush through and moan and complain about.

 

However, they are constantly using a ton of tape, paper, glue, cereal boxes and anything else they can get their hands on to "make projects". They ask all the time, "Mama may I make a project?" What they mean though is may they create something they make up without my direction or intervention that they will then want to keep for at least a year somewhere in our house. They definitely do not mean a parent/teacher led project, no matter how much fun or glue is involved, especially if it is about a school assignment. Halfway through MFW ECC I gave up on the country's art projects, that day of the week goes so much more smoothly now.

 

Thank goodness some children don't learn through crafts and that those children belong to me because I HATE crafts. Dioramas and the like that were supposed to make learning "fun" made me ask if I could just write a report instead. (I couldn't.)

 

We do have them recite poetry though and present information more formally sometimes for public speaking practice. Speaking in front of peo terrifies me and I want my children to be more comfortable with it.

[J-rap]

I agree with others who have said that project-wise, you are fine. However, I think oral presentations are really great experience, and if your children aren't getting that in other areas, you could incorporate that into your school work. More and more these days, ps students are having oral presentation opportunities, and I can see how much more comfortable students seem to be these days to speak in front of a crowd. If your children do not have other opportunities for this type of practice -- such as at church, in 4H, or whatever -- I would recommend you having them do oral presentations at home. Plus, it helps students succinctly organize what they have learned. (Which can be done in writing assignments as well, of course, but then they don't get the oral practice in front of groups.)

[Ester Maria]

That's part of the problem though. There isn't a lot of free time outside of school these days (for many children). So it's like some of the "learning through play" has to be artificially injected.

But it is a part of the vicious cycle. There is not a lot of free time *because* kids are babied into being at schools all days long *because* schools are not "business, academics only", but fill time in other ways too. Normally grade school kids should have school half days anyway, and by the time you reach full days, i.e. high school, absence tracking should end anyway and teens should be allowed some flexibility as to attendances. In my little bubble :tongue_smilie:, but it was not very far away from that when I was a child.

 

If we eliminated non-academic stuff from schools (barring minimal breaks, one longer recess and making sure each class is about 10-15 minutes longer than what it should be to allow for tardiness / chit chat / revision / a bit of downtime because one cannot keep one's concentration on the raw material for so long, etc.), the school day would be significantly shorter.