Stumbling block - Catholic knowledge/help needed

[knit247]

I was going to post this to the Crossing the Tiber social group, but think that there are several more Catholics here on the General Board, and I just know that someone can help me with these issues. My background is that I grew up mainline Protestant, and am now in RCIA. I fully intend(ed?) to join the Catholic Church at the Easter Vigil, and am unsure and scared by the doubts that I am having.

 

I saw our priest last week. I really, really like him and he was nothing but kind while I met with him. The reason for the meeting was two-fold: 1. DH (baptized in the Catholic Church, but no other sacraments received) was married prior (in a Las Vegas chapel, no less!), and 2. The church where I was baptized as a child can not find a record of my baptism.

 

On the first subject, Fr. told me that we would have to be married in the Catholic church. Our marriage is not considered valid. Now, I knew that was likely to be the case but once I heard it out loud, it really rubbed me the wrong way. We have been married almost 16 years (married in a United Methodist Church) and love each other very much. Why must we be married again? I simply do not get it. To say that our marriage is not valid is to me the same as saying it is invalid. And I am not sure that I can agree to that. And I'm really not sure that I could get DH to agree..

 

On the issue of my baptism, I remember getting baptized on Mother's Day when I was somewhere between 4-6 years old. I remember it - I really do. It happened. I'm sure of it (did I mention that). But because there is no paperwork to be found at my former church, I will have to be conditionally baptized. I know what that means - it will cover me in case I really wasn't baptized. But I was. And I really don't want this - to me it feels like another baptism. I can completely understand why it needs to be done in some (most?) cases, but why when I already have been baptized?

 

There's actually a third issue, if I might. DH - at this point at least - has no desire to join the Catholic Church and strongly prefers that the children not go to Mass nor take RE classes, although he has been supportive of me in going through RCIA. He believes that they will get confused. He grew up with Catholic mother and Southern Baptist father, so he knows all about confusion ;) We have always been Protestant, and until we moved to Germany were very active in our local church. He firmly believes that we will again become active in a Protestant church once we return to the US (we just aren't happy with the English-speaking ones here). What is the wisdom here? I am almost 100% sure that the Catholic church is where I want to be. I do believe that it along with the EO Church were the original church that Jesus set up. I'm not knowledgeable enough to say that it still is the "right" church, but I do believe (hope?) that it comes closest. But if DH refuses to go to a Catholic church - but will go to a Protestant one - am I not splitting the family up? Should I not go where he wants to go - after all, Protestants are Christians as well...

 

As you can see I am insanely confused. I appreciate anyone who has read this far, and would love to hear what you have to say. I am headed out for several hours, but will check back as soon as I return. Thanks!

[Adrianne in TX]

I have to run off but, the convalidation of your wedding is a very short ceremony...but be aware they will meet with your husband with you and with out you to talk about the state of your marriage. This is to protect you as the Catholic. If you were to divorce then remarry a Catholic you would need an annulment because you were married in the Catholic Church. As to a baptism or rebaptism it is just to make sure you have had this wonderful sacrament. To tell you the truth when I came back to the church (last yr much in your situation) I was a bit jealous of those who got to go through all 3 sacraments...it was so beautiful.

As to the conflict of your faith and your hubbies, only you can make that choice. I felt convicted that I needed to return to the Catholic Church and I am happy to be there. Has it created conflict in our marriage yes I wont lie but I know in my heart that God will have graces for us and hopefully by my faithfulness and love of the Church my hubbie might in time follow me.

 

God speed and if you need to PM me please do....I am or have faced all you are (with the exception of the baptism).

 

Also realize that the Catholic Church has records that go back hundreds of hundreds of years or more. They are big on paper to show things have been done. My friends father became a priest (death of spouse) and her own father held her at baptism....when she remarried she had to get her baptism papers for him to remarry her....and he was there!!!!!

[Violet Crown]

Briefly on the marriage issue ... Marriage law is complex, as the Church seeks both to take seriously Christ's strong words about putting aside and marrying again being equivalent to adultery, and to discern whether a true marriage ever took place - a matter which involves determining the capacity and consent of the parties. The rules are thus simple - if one is already married and one's spouse still lives, one cannot take another spouse, because marriage is permanent until death - and yet complicated - a baptized Catholic, for instance, has no right to marry outside the purview of the Church, which likely means your husband was not truly married before (and so was free to marry you) - but for the same reason, was obligated to contract marriage with you under the auspices of the Church.

 

HOWEVER, since you were both presumably free to marry, and presumably gave consent, and have been living as husband and wife, the usual fix is Convalidation, which is just supplying the missing ingredient of having the Church bless the marriage. This is only necessary where one of the couple was Catholic and so had the obligation to marry as a Catholic. This is a sufficiently complicated area, though, that you should consult a priest trained in canon law (not all priests are!) and disregard what you hear from people on the internet. Including me. :)

 

ETA: Regarding your baptism - again, internet advice is what you pay for it - but have you discussed this fully with a trained priest? Don't go by what the well-intentioned people in the pastor's or bishop's office tell you, as their confidence in their knowledge of canon law is generally equalled only by their ignorance of it (I could tell you stories...). Were there witnesses to it who are still alive?

Edited January 27, 2012 by Sharon in Austin

[Pod's mum]

Dear Laurie,

I joined the Church at Easter 4 years ago.

I had remembered getting Baptised with my sisters, but Mum gave me my Baptism papers and I saw that I was welcomed into the church (different church) with them, but had been baptised privately, as a baby. Which she confirmed.

I started the RCIA programme not knowing if I would join, but needing to learn what to teach my kids, who had preceded me by a year. Their choice.

I realised during the lessons that I needed to follow them and did.

My case was different in that I was separated, am now divorced and was aware that I could end up officially married to him forever.

Not a good prospect.

(And also have to remain single forever.)

I've just started the annulment process/application.

I have found the support, understanding and love shown to my kids and I to be phenomenal.

The rules do not cut out the people. The Church has had a lot of practice in dealing with complex cases. Keep talking with your Priest.

One thing I keep hearing is that there is no rush. Change is big. Prayer is powerful.

Peace be with you.

 

Edited to add, There have been a couple of beautiful weddings in our church of couples who had been married for years, but were finally able to do so in the Church.

Also, Can you ask a parent about your baptism? Possibly your memory may be different?

Edited January 27, 2012 by Pod's mum

[pageta]

I remember it irritating me too that they thought my baptism in a Protestant church was invalid because it was done - once - by immersion and I wasn't dunked three times. Seriously! They have their little rules about things and can get their undies quite in a bundle over them.

 

That aside, I have much enjoyed becoming and being a Catholic otherwise so I consider those irritations minor in retrospect.

 

As for whether your family will join you, that is a larger aspect altogether which I have no input on at the moment.

[Ellie]

I saw our priest last week. I really, really like him and he was nothing but kind while I met with him. The reason for the meeting was two-fold: 1. DH (baptized in the Catholic Church, but no other sacraments received) was married prior (in a Las Vegas chapel, no less!), and 2. The church where I was baptized as a child can not find a record of my baptism.

 

On the first subject, Fr. told me that we would have to be married in the Catholic church. Our marriage is not considered valid. Now, I knew that was likely to be the case but once I heard it out loud, it really rubbed me the wrong way. We have been married almost 16 years (married in a United Methodist Church) and love each other very much. Why must we be married again? I simply do not get it. To say that our marriage is not valid is to me the same as saying it is invalid. And I am not sure that I can agree to that. And I'm really not sure that I could get DH to agree..

Did the priest not address the fact that your dh's first marriage has not been annulled? That would be one reason that your marriage is not valid. It should be a simple thing; as he was Catholic (even though he had only been baptized and had received none of the other sacraments) the annulment would be granted for "lack of form." Easy peasy.

 

And since there had not been an annulment, that would make your marriage invalid. Once Mr. Knit has the annulment, your marrige can be convalidated. Or, if you think he'll completely refuse the simple ceremony, there is something called a "radical sanation." It's what I did when I returned to the Church after 35 years and knew that Mr. Ellie would not want to participate in a convalidation of our 1974 marrige. It was also easy peasy.

 

I'm thinking that more converation needs to take place between you and the priest.

 

On the issue of my baptism, I remember getting baptized on Mother's Day when I was somewhere between 4-6 years old. I remember it - I really do. It happened. I'm sure of it (did I mention that). But because there is no paperwork to be found at my former church, I will have to be conditionally baptized. I know what that means - it will cover me in case I really wasn't baptized. But I was. And I really don't want this - to me it feels like another baptism. I can completely understand why it needs to be done in some (most?) cases, but why when I already have been baptized?

Because there must be a record of some kind. Lacking that record, there must be a baptism. There is also a "Profession of Faith," but if the priest has not mentioned it to you, I guess it wouldn't apply in your situation.

 

There's actually a third issue, if I might. DH - at this point at least - has no desire to join the Catholic Church and strongly prefers that the children not go to Mass nor take RE classes, although he has been supportive of me in going through RCIA. He believes that they will get confused. He grew up with Catholic mother and Southern Baptist father, so he knows all about confusion ;) We have always been Protestant, and until we moved to Germany were very active in our local church. He firmly believes that we will again become active in a Protestant church once we return to the US (we just aren't happy with the English-speaking ones here). What is the wisdom here? I am almost 100% sure that the Catholic church is where I want to be. I do believe that it along with the EO Church were the original church that Jesus set up. I'm not knowledgeable enough to say that it still is the "right" church, but I do believe (hope?) that it comes closest. But if DH refuses to go to a Catholic church - but will go to a Protestant one - am I not splitting the family up? Should I not go where he wants to go - after all, Protestants are Christians as well...

If you believe that the Catholic Church comes closest :-) then you need to go there, and pray for Mr. Knit to allow the dc to go with you, and perhaps some day to also join the Church.

 

I'm on the RCIA team at my parish, and I have learned that coming into the Church as an adult can be messy, but it's worth it, dear.

 

I'll be praying for you.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Ellie

[littlebug42]

I remember it irritating me too that they thought my baptism in a Protestant church was invalid because it was done - once - by immersion and I wasn't dunked three times. Seriously! They have their little rules about things and can get their undies quite in a bundle over them.

 

 

 

That must have been a local thing because I was never asked about how my baptism took place. They took my certificate and that was that. Maybe my church is the anomaly.

 

For the OP, since marriage and baptism are both sacraments, they are taken very seriously. The priest is just making sure that you receive both sacraments.

 

As for the religion issue with your husband, only you can make that choice. My dh was Catholic when we married and I was not. We received dispensation to marry within the Church so we were OK there. We had decided to raise our children Catholic however. I was the latecomer to the party and was accepted into the Church 6 years ago. I was initially led to do it because I couldn't see a world where I was supposed to teach my children one religion but practice a different one. Once I began RCIA though, so many of my questions were answered and I knew that was where I belonged all along. What about potentially the Anglican church? It is still protestant but very close to the worship/beliefs of the Catholic church.

[Parrothead]

First off none of this is insurmountable. :grouphug:

 

I was going to post this to the Crossing the Tiber social group, but think that there are several more Catholics here on the General Board, and I just know that someone can help me with these issues. My background is that I grew up mainline Protestant, and am now in RCIA. I fully intend(ed?) to join the Catholic Church at the Easter Vigil, and am unsure and scared by the doubts that I am having.

Congratulations!

 

I saw our priest last week. I really, really like him and he was nothing but kind while I met with him. The reason for the meeting was two-fold: 1. DH (baptized in the Catholic Church, but no other sacraments received) was married prior (in a Las Vegas chapel, no less!), and 2. The church where I was baptized as a child can not find a record of my baptism.

Is there anyone who remembers? You parents or grandparents? Dh was baptized as a teen in a UMC church. They do not keep records. All that was needed was a letter from a witness stating that he was baptized using the proper formula (In the name of the Father, Son and HS.)

 

On the first subject, Fr. told me that we would have to be married in the Catholic church. Our marriage is not considered valid. Now, I knew that was likely to be the case but once I heard it out loud, it really rubbed me the wrong way. We have been married almost 16 years (married in a United Methodist Church) and love each other very much. Why must we be married again? I simply do not get it. To say that our marriage is not valid is to me the same as saying it is invalid. And I am not sure that I can agree to that. And I'm really not sure that I could get DH to agree..

Yes, you marriage is valid. What it isn't is sacramental. Basically the convalidation (notice it is not called a validation ceremony) makes the marriage sacramental. Dh and I did it on our anniversary. We've been married 13 years not 2. It is really just as if one is renewing one's vows.

 

But because it is a sacramental marriage there are a couple of hoops to jump through if your dh decides to participate. That is just the nature of the church protecting its members.

On the issue of my baptism, I remember getting baptized on Mother's Day when I was somewhere between 4-6 years old. I remember it - I really do. It happened. I'm sure of it (did I mention that). But because there is no paperwork to be found at my former church, I will have to be conditionally baptized. I know what that means - it will cover me in case I really wasn't baptized. But I was. And I really don't want this - to me it feels like another baptism. I can completely understand why it needs to be done in some (most?) cases, but why when I already have been baptized?

Pray. Ask for understanding and ask for a witness to step forward.

 

There's actually a third issue, if I might. DH - at this point at least - has no desire to join the Catholic Church and strongly prefers that the children not go to Mass nor take RE classes, although he has been supportive of me in going through RCIA. He believes that they will get confused. He grew up with Catholic mother and Southern Baptist father, so he knows all about confusion ;) We have always been Protestant, and until we moved to Germany were very active in our local church. He firmly believes that we will again become active in a Protestant church once we return to the US (we just aren't happy with the English-speaking ones here). What is the wisdom here? I am almost 100% sure that the Catholic church is where I want to be. I do believe that it along with the EO Church were the original church that Jesus set up. I'm not knowledgeable enough to say that it still is the "right" church, but I do believe (hope?) that it comes closest. But if DH refuses to go to a Catholic church - but will go to a Protestant one - am I not splitting the family up? Should I not go where he wants to go - after all, Protestants are Christians as well...

Again, pray. Ask St. Monica's intercession if you are so inclined. Also St. Joseph as patron of families.

 

There are options for when you get back to the US. This does not have to be a point of contention within your marriage. I know a couple where he goes to his church, she goes to hers and they meet for lunch. They have made it a quirk not something to be angry about.

 

This does not have to be something that ruins your relationship with your dh. Keep the communication open. Don't get defensive or accusative. And pray.

 

 

As you can see I am insanely confused. I appreciate anyone who has read this far, and would love to hear what you have to say. I am headed out for several hours, but will check back as soon as I return. Thanks!

I hope I've been able to help. If you have any more questions just ask. :grouphug:

[Violet Crown]

I remember it irritating me too that they thought my baptism in a Protestant church was invalid because it was done - once - by immersion and I wasn't dunked three times. Seriously! They have their little rules about things and can get their undies quite in a bundle over them.

 

That aside, I have much enjoyed becoming and being a Catholic otherwise so I consider those irritations minor in retrospect.

 

As for whether your family will join you, that is a larger aspect altogether which I have no input on at the moment.

 

As long as a baptism can be determined to have been done with water that touches the body and in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, it is valid. Threefold ablution is not necessary for validity. Somebody told you wrong.

[Ellie]

I remember it irritating me too that they thought my baptism in a Protestant church was invalid because it was done - once - by immersion and I wasn't dunked three times. Seriously! They have their little rules about things and can get their undies quite in a bundle over them.

It is because the Church takes these things so seriously as Sacraments that they are so fussy about the details.

[Violet Crown]

It is because the Church takes these things so seriously as Sacraments that they are so fussy about the details.

 

Not that fussy. There is nothing wrong with immersion, and threefold ablution is required for liceity, but not validity. If conditional baptism was required, it was for some other reason. Or the priest got a C In his Sacramental Theology class.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Sharon in Austin

[Trish]

Huh! Wow those are a lot of issues.

 

Re: the family thing (everyone else being firmly Protestant) that might be the most difficult point. Are you going to be going to separate churches? That would not be ideal to say the least.

 

Re: Baptism, I guess if I were in your shoes I wouldn't object to an extra Baptism, even though you feel it is redundant, because Baptism washes away ALL sin. So I wouldn't see any harm in that -- it would have to be a brief ceremony.

 

Re: Marriage -- without looking anything up, my IMPRESSION is that Christian marriages are recognized by the R.C. church. They are considered valid. Perhaps he just wants to "bless" your marriage?

 

For me Catholicism is all about the Eucharist, and for many other reasons I find it my most direct and helpful path to Christ, who is the point of it all. In your shoes I might be tempted to continue with the Protestantism your family is comfortable with and then do my switcheroo once the kids are off to college or whatever.

 

But I see you're on a trajectory via RCIA, so I guess you'll just have to decide how to handle future church-going and so forth. I'd suggest double-checking on the marriage thing.

 

Good luck!

[Ellie]

Not that fussy. There is nothing wrong with immersion, and threefold ablution is required for liceity, but not validity. If conditional baptism was required, it was for some other reason. Or the priest got a C In his Sacramental Theology class.

ITA. I was just replying in kind. :-)

[Ellie]

Re: the family thing (everyone else being firmly Protestant) that might be the most difficult point. Are you going to be going to separate churches? That would not be ideal to say the least.

Not ideal, but it can be done.

 

Baptism, I guess if I were in your shoes I wouldn't object to an extra Baptism, even though you feel it is redundant, because Baptism washes away ALL sin. So I wouldn't see any harm in that -- it would have to be a brief ceremony.

Might be brief, might not. If it's done at the Easter Vigil, it's a really big deal. I don't know if adults are baptized at other times of the year or not.

 

Marriage -- without looking anything up, my IMPRESSION is that Christian marriages are recognized by the R.C. church. They are considered valid. Perhaps he just wants to "bless" your marriage?

The issue here is that (1) the dh had been married before and that marriage was not annulled, and (2) the dh may be unwilling to go through the "blessing" process or the annulment process.

[Violet Crown]

ITA. I was just replying in kind. :-)

:001_smile: Sorry; I'm less pastoral and more rules-focused I suppose. All those legalism threads are probably about me. :) But I have seen too many people, Catholic and non-, abused by Catholic bureaucrats armed with half-understood sacramental theology and canon law, breeding confusion and doubt among people like the OP who just want to live Christian lives. Personally, I now ignore any claim about marriage, baptism, or any sacramental/canonical issue that is not coming from an actual canon lawyer.

[Ellie]

:001_smile: Sorry; I'm less pastoral and more rules-focused I suppose. All those legalism threads are probably about me. :)

Or me. I tend to be that way, as well. The blessing/curse of being a First Born, lol.

 

But I have seen too many people, Catholic and non-, abused by Catholic bureaucrats armed with half-understood sacramental theology and canon law, breeding confusion and doubt among people like the OP who just want to live Christian lives.

Same here.

 

Personally, I now ignore any claim about marriage, baptism, or any sacramental/canonical issue that is not coming from an actual canon lawyer.

IKWYM. I've seen that in just the short time I've been back in the Church.

[justamouse]

You're not getting remarried, you're getting your marriage convalidated.

 

I am in the same boat-even with the baptism because it's somewhere in Brazil and I'm not looking for it. :001_smile:

 

I'm not getting 'rebaptized', I'm having a provisional baptisim done and frankly, I could care less about all this, it's a new beginning and I'm happy to be celebrating it with sacraments. I want my marriage to be a sacramental one.

[Tiramisu]

I was going to post this to the Crossing the Tiber social group, but think that there are several more Catholics here on the General Board, and I just know that someone can help me with these issues. My background is that I grew up mainline Protestant, and am now in RCIA. I fully intend(ed?) to join the Catholic Church at the Easter Vigil, and am unsure and scared by the doubts that I am having.

 

I saw our priest last week. I really, really like him and he was nothing but kind while I met with him. The reason for the meeting was two-fold: 1. DH (baptized in the Catholic Church, but no other sacraments received) was married prior (in a Las Vegas chapel, no less!), and 2. The church where I was baptized as a child can not find a record of my baptism.

 

On the first subject, Fr. told me that we would have to be married in the Catholic church. Our marriage is not considered valid. Now, I knew that was likely to be the case but once I heard it out loud, it really rubbed me the wrong way. We have been married almost 16 years (married in a United Methodist Church) and love each other very much. Why must we be married again? I simply do not get it. To say that our marriage is not valid is to me the same as saying it is invalid. And I am not sure that I can agree to that. And I'm really not sure that I could get DH to agree..

 

On the issue of my baptism, I remember getting baptized on Mother's Day when I was somewhere between 4-6 years old. I remember it - I really do. It happened. I'm sure of it (did I mention that). But because there is no paperwork to be found at my former church, I will have to be conditionally baptized. I know what that means - it will cover me in case I really wasn't baptized. But I was. And I really don't want this - to me it feels like another baptism. I can completely understand why it needs to be done in some (most?) cases, but why when I already have been baptized?

 

There's actually a third issue, if I might. DH - at this point at least - has no desire to join the Catholic Church and strongly prefers that the children not go to Mass nor take RE classes, although he has been supportive of me in going through RCIA. He believes that they will get confused. He grew up with Catholic mother and Southern Baptist father, so he knows all about confusion ;) We have always been Protestant, and until we moved to Germany were very active in our local church. He firmly believes that we will again become active in a Protestant church once we return to the US (we just aren't happy with the English-speaking ones here). What is the wisdom here? I am almost 100% sure that the Catholic church is where I want to be. I do believe that it along with the EO Church were the original church that Jesus set up. I'm not knowledgeable enough to say that it still is the "right" church, but I do believe (hope?) that it comes closest. But if DH refuses to go to a Catholic church - but will go to a Protestant one - am I not splitting the family up? Should I not go where he wants to go - after all, Protestants are Christians as well...

 

As you can see I am insanely confused. I appreciate anyone who has read this far, and would love to hear what you have to say. I am headed out for several hours, but will check back as soon as I return. Thanks!

 

The other posters have addressed your questions better than I could, but I just want to encourage you to persevere. When you are able to get the answers that you need about what you really have to do and you do it despite some discomfort or annoyance, I think you will find it has been worth it. Through your obedience to the details and most especially through the sacraments themselves, there are graces to be had which will help you immensely in your new life and will bless your entire family. Hang in there. I will be praying, too. :grouphug:

[knit247]

Wow - ty all so much for your thoughtful and helpful answers :grouphug:

 

I may need to talk to the priest again about the convalidation. I think that I could handle a blessing of our marriage far more easily than if I thought that our marriage in the UMC wasn't "good enough". Too bad I already screwed up and asked DH if he'd be willing to get our marriage validated... :tongue_smilie:

 

 

Briefly on the marriage issue ...a baptized Catholic, for instance, has no right to marry outside the purview of the Church, which likely means your husband was not truly married before (and so was free to marry you) - but for the same reason, was obligated to contract marriage with you under the auspices of the Church.

Totally off the subject, but theoretically then one could marry many times in anywhere but a Catholic Church, and none of the marriages would be recognized. That seems strange to me (not in a bad way at all - just something else to distract me) ;)

 

I joined the Church at Easter 4 years ago...I started the RCIA programme not knowing if I would join' date=' but needing to learn what to teach my kids, who had preceded me by a year. Their choice.

I realised during the lessons that I needed to follow them and did...[/quote']

Thank you so much - and so happy that you followed your children. What a neat story.

 

Did the priest not address the fact that your dh's first marriage has not been annulled?

 

...And since there had not been an annulment, that would make your marriage invalid. Once Mr. Knit has the annulment, your marrige can be convalidated. Or, if you think he'll completely refuse the simple ceremony, there is something called a "radical sanction."

 

If you believe that the Catholic Church comes closest :-) then you need to go there, and pray for Mr. Knit to allow the dc to go with you, and perhaps some day to also join the Church.

Can I just tell you that the first two times that I read your post I read "radical sanitation". :lol: I was miffed at why my marriage would need to be radically sanitized in case DH won't go for the convalidation!

 

At any rate, the one thing that keeps me going throughout this process is that I hear so many stories of spouses who have followed - even years later - and joined the Catholic Church. I think that DH had such a confusing time growing up RC and S. Baptist. The one thing he remembers most about his RC experience is that the Sisters at his elementary school were quite fond of smacking the children on the backs of their poor little heads if they mis-behaved in Mass. :001_huh:

 

Re: the family thing (everyone else being firmly Protestant) that might be the most difficult point. Are you going to be going to separate churches? In your shoes I might be tempted to continue with the Protestantism your family is comfortable with and then do my switcheroo once the kids are off to college or whatever.

 

Right now we do not go to a Protestant church - although I go to Mass once/wk. My children have been a few times, and DH came when I went through the Rite of Initiation. I do not think that DH & the children would go to a Protestant church if I became Catholic, and that bothers me so much. I was the one who grew up going to church every Sun. and Wed. nights, and I have always been the one who initiated going/joining. The girls and I were always far more active than DH: Sunday School, Wed. night activities, etc. DH would come for church, however, and really liked it. He reads the Bible and prays, but really sees the other stuff as fluff (for lack of a better word). I'm quite sure he'd like me to stop rocking the boat!

[Ellie]

I may need to talk to the priest again about the convalidation. I think that I could handle a blessing of our marriage far more easily than if I thought that our marriage in the UMC wasn't "good enough". Too bad I already screwed up and asked DH if he'd be willing to get our marriage validated...

And please ask the priest about your dh's previous marriage. It sure seems to me as if there needs to be an annulment.

 

You didn't screw up, dear. It will be ok. God is bigger than our vocabulary. :D

[Avila]

And please ask the priest about your dh's previous marriage. It sure seems to me as if there needs to be an annulment.

 

You didn't screw up, dear. It will be ok. God is bigger than our vocabulary. :D

 

We can't assume either way here. But an annulment would only annul a sacramental marriage. If there was no sacramental marriage (and no attempt at one), there is nothing there to annul. A civil marriage with no sacramental component is not a valid marriage to annul. Of course, if there is a possibility that it was a sacramental marriage, then it would take the annulment process to delve into whether one really exists. But in some cases, the priest is able to determine that even without the full annulment process.

 

My friend, who is Catholic, had a civil marriage and then a divorce. When she went to marry again inside the Church, she did not need to get an annulment because there had been no sacramental marriage. She, as a Catholic, should have been married inside the Church but was not.

 

Annulment and marriage issues are very complicated. Let the priest guide you on that. Unless we are well-versed in canon law and pastoral care, we cannot assume an annulment is required or not required. We have to rely on the priest.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Asenik

[ma23peas]

The only thing that I feel needs to be dealt with is the feelings of your husband...all the prior things are just hoops to jump through (amazing how many hoops we'll jump through for small mundane things in our life)...unless your husband is not on board, then those small hoops become rather large obstacles.

 

I honestly would recommend a sit down with you and your husband..I do believe in the man being the head of the household...they should lead spiritually (not often is the case) but that does not mean we should not allow them the opportunity to express their reservations.

 

First place is to start on common ground....you could start on a scale of 1-10 and just ask some key questions to both of you..fill it out on a separate piece of paper...keep it to less than 10.

 

1. How important is weekly fellowship to you? (Meaning mass or church service)

 

2. How important is sharing your faith with your children?

 

3. How important is having each of us declare the same denomination?

 

4. How important is making sure you (as the parent) are the spiritual leader for the family?

 

5. List three objections you have to the Catholic Church.

 

6. List three objections you have to a protestant church.

 

Have each of you fill out something like this and then read each other's replies..you may be surprised...you really need to know where you both are starting from and how motivated each of you are to making this important decision. As a married couple, (biblically) you are now considered one under God...it just does not bode well if you consider only your own desires in this situation and not his. It will take time but you both need to be in agreement as to what and how you take it..just as you are eager to declare, he may not be eager and can not let that dictate what you do as well...there needs to be some compromise...but fact finding is the first step.

 

Once you both are full onboard for a team decision, another wedding/another baptism would actually seem fun...but not if you both disagree on the starting points.

[TracyR]

My your story almost is similar to our family's story.

I was actually the one who was Baptized Catholic, but was brought up Protestant throughout my life as my mother changed faiths in her life. My father wasn't involved much in our faith upbringing. Though we did attend a couple of Catholic schools as a child and that was the only Catholic 'exposure' I ever had. I was only Baptized though and never had recieved any of the other sacraments.

Anyways, my husband was brought up Protestant all his life, but went to Catholic elementary and high school.

 

But it is a journey going through RCIA for sure and still almost a year later for us its still a journey. I'd lie if I said that there are times I struggle with things. But that's the time to stop what it is your doing and pray. Pray for guidance and discernment.

 

My husband and I have been married for 16 yrs and we had our marriage Convalidated and it was wonderful. Granted we had to do it at the last minute , but it was like getting our marriage vows renewed once again. It was wonderful to have our blessing on our marriage. Plus when my husband and I first got married , we eloped. So it was nice to have some family there finally to enjoy the occasion with us.

 

I wouldn't see this as a stumbling block, but an opportunity. Yes, your husband may have to annul the old marriage but think of it as a new and fresh start. I've never had to go through the process but I've heard its pretty easy.

 

AS for baptismal certificates, if you have any pictures or anything of that day to prove it that can be used as well. My oldest and 2nd daughter were baptized in the United Methodist church and when it came time for us to prepare for them to receive Reconnciliation I had to get their certificates. Only problem was that we never got any when they were born. But I did have picture to prove it. The church we went to gave us a very hard time and said they couldn't find their records even though they knew that they were Baptized there. So our Deacon just said if you've got the pictures and an approximate date ( I had a date for one of my girls because it was on the cake we had to celebrate with , but not the 2nd daughter's ) then that was good enough for them. So if you have some kind of verification it helps. But like others said the Catholic church takes the Sacraments very seriously and they are the best record keepers in the world. I was able to obtain my Baptizimal record and it was back from 1976! And the very church I never stepped foot in as a child still had them. LOL

 

Even if you have to be baptized again , its a beautiful ceremony in the Catholic church, that I will guarentee you will NEVER forget. Its not full body immersion, the worst is a patch of your hair may get wet. And the chrism! You'll smell like a baby for days its such a beautiful smell. And also a Protestant baptism is not invalid at all. My husband was brought up in the Presbyterian church. His was just as validated. As long as your Baptism was done with water and with the words In the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Then it is to valid. So it really depends on the Protestant faith you came from. I know there are many Protestant faiths, I would say most do a baptism like this. But there are some who do not such as : Jehovah's Witnesses, the "Jesus Only" Penecostals , Mormons, Unitarian, and Christian Science to name a few that baptize but not with the Trinity. So if you belonged to any of these faiths then your Baptism would be considered invalid by the Catholic church because it was not done in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If you didn't belong to any of these faiths then I wouldn't worry about it and just try your best to see if you can find any proof of baptism. And like I said, if you can't see this as a renewal. A new start in your life to a beautiful journey between you and God.

 

It is scary to take that leap. I remember feeling that way a few times, but in the end the Easter Vigil will be the most beautiful ceremony that you and your family will ever partake in. Trust me. Try not to be to frustrated about it. All the hassle to get things done will be so worth it in the end. Now almost a year later I am still proud to be Catholic :>)

Good luck to you. Really after all the formalities are said and done and over with it will be all worth it in the end.

[Parrothead]

And please ask the priest about your dh's previous marriage. It sure seems to me as if there needs to be an annulment.

 

You didn't screw up, dear. It will be ok. God is bigger than our vocabulary. :D

There doesn't even need to be a long drawn out annulment. Just a declaration of nullity for being without form. Way quicker, way cheaper. It can be accomplished within weeks. Of course this is contingent on this marriage being done outside the Church.

[Parrothead]

Wow - ty all so much for your thoughtful and helpful answers :grouphug:

 

I may need to talk to the priest again about the convalidation. I think that I could handle a blessing of our marriage far more easily than if I thought that our marriage in the UMC wasn't "good enough". Too bad I already screwed up and asked DH if he'd be willing to get our marriage validated... :tongue_smilie: !

No harm done. Just tell him you are still learning and got the terms confused.

 

It will look a lot like your original marriage ceremony. Which is why I liked looking at it as a renewal.

[Parrothead]

The only thing that I feel needs to be dealt with is the feelings of your husband...all the prior things are just hoops to jump through (amazing how many hoops we'll jump through for small mundane things in our life)...unless your husband is not on board, then those small hoops become rather large obstacles.

 

I honestly would recommend a sit down with you and your husband..I do believe in the man being the head of the household...they should lead spiritually (not often is the case) but that does not mean we should not allow them the opportunity to express their reservations.

 

First place is to start on common ground....you could start on a scale of 1-10 and just ask some key questions to both of you..fill it out on a separate piece of paper...keep it to less than 10.

 

1. How important is weekly fellowship to you? (Meaning mass or church service)

 

2. How important is sharing your faith with your children?

 

3. How important is having each of us declare the same denomination?

 

4. How important is making sure you (as the parent) are the spiritual leader for the family?

 

5. List three objections you have to the Catholic Church.

 

6. List three objections you have to a protestant church.

 

Have each of you fill out something like this and then read each other's replies..you may be surprised...you really need to know where you both are starting from and how motivated each of you are to making this important decision. As a married couple, (biblically) you are now considered one under God...it just does not bode well if you consider only your own desires in this situation and not his. It will take time but you both need to be in agreement as to what and how you take it..just as you are eager to declare, he may not be eager and can not let that dictate what you do as well...there needs to be some compromise...but fact finding is the first step.

 

Once you both are full onboard for a team decision, another wedding/another baptism would actually seem fun...but not if you both disagree on the starting points.

This is a good idea. The only thing I can take issue with is your first point. For Catholics going to Mass is way way more than fellowship. We have an obligation to go to Mass at a minimum on Sundays and the other holy days of obligation.

[justamouse]

Totally off the subject, but theoretically then one could marry many times in anywhere but a Catholic Church, and none of the marriages would be recognized. That seems strange to me (not in a bad way at all - just something else to distract me) ;)

 

[snip]

 

I'm quite sure he'd like me to stop rocking the boat!

 

It's not that they're not recognized.

 

The RCC was the first church to start asking if both partners were about to be wed of their own accord (I'm not sure about other religions). Meaning, they would not allow a forced/coerced/demanded marriage.

 

And, they want to know that certain markers ahve been met. It's not jumping through hoops-I used to think that too-it's the ultimate pastoral care. They don't want to see you divorced, they want to keep you from that pain, and the pain it would inflict on your family. Having children and making a family is a sacred, sacred thing. Marriage is Holy Orders.

 

So, when you view it like that, it changes.

 

I am a non fluff person. I do not like ceremony (see the irony here?) and pomp. But I handicap myself thinking like that. Wether it's to protect myself or because we're such a Protestant country that tries to throw off perceived trappings, I have no idea. And I can't say I'm ready to go with it-I have certain points of just going through the paces on a shallow level because I can't handle the depth of what's happening. But the sacramental is spiritual and physical. The physical is to help us touch the spiritual. And making myself walk though it is ...I can't explain it. I can tell you it's worth it.

 

This Easter Vigil is going to be monumental for myself and my family. And I'm almost terrified, not because I don't want to do it, but because of the enormity of what we're doing. Because of the beauty of the ceremony.

 

As far as your husband, if he'll let you take the kids, then just do that. Don't ask him, say nothing else, just go, light a candle, pray, and walk through the year.

Edited January 27, 2012 by justamouse

[Bluegoat]

Yes, you marriage is valid. What it isn't is sacramental. Basically the convalidation (notice it is not called a validation ceremony) makes the marriage sacramental. Dh and I did it on our anniversary. We've been married 13 years not 2. It is really just as if one is renewing one's vows.

 

But because it is a sacramental marriage there are a couple of hoops to jump through if your dh decides to participate. That is just the nature of the church protecting its members.

 

 

I may be understanding you, but this sounds off to me. I was very much under the impression that according to Catholic teaching if two baptized Christians marry outside the CC if the marriage is valid, it will always be sacramental.

 

If one or both are not baptized, then it will be a valid natural marriage but not sacramental, but in that case there is no need for convalidation.

 

The only reason to require a convalidation is if there was an invalid marriage, in which case the reason for the invalidity needs to be addressed and the convalidation is essentially creating a new marriage. And in addition in such cases the couple needs to live as brother and sister until that happens, because basically they are not married right now.

[justamouse]

I may be understanding you, but this sounds off to me. I was very much under the impression that according to Catholic teaching if two baptized Christians marry outside the CC if the marriage is valid, it will always be sacramental.

 

If one or both are not baptized, then it will be a valid natural marriage but not sacramental, but in that case there is no need for convalidation.

 

The only reason to require a convalidation is if there was an invalid marriage, in which case the reason for the invalidity needs to be addressed and the convalidation is essentially creating a new marriage. And in addition in such cases the couple needs to live as brother and sister until that happens, because basically they are not married right now.

 

My husband was baptized Catholic, I was also, but we married outside the church. Our marriage is not sacramental and we're getting ti convalidated. We are NOT living as brother and sister, and never, ever has that even been even intimated.

 

We, in essence, have a civil union as far as the church is concerned.

[oraetstudia]

All this has been answered, but I'll share anyway -- when my husband and I entered the Catholic church, we chose to have a provisional baptism. The church we came out of did not give certificates and can, at times, depending on the preacher be rather loose as to form. So we wanted it just in case. Provisional baptism says nothing about the validity of a previous baptism, of your previous baptism was valid and has already indelibly marked you as a Christian then the provisional baptism does nothing at all. It only is done to ensure that you are baptized correctly if the form wasn't complete originally.