Math Help Please

[Haiku]

My ds is in 3rd grade. He can do straight computations pretty well ... he's up to subtracting in the hundreds with borrowing.

 

However, he can't do a word problem or any type of multi-step problem to save his life.

 

It's extremely frustrating for both of us and has gotten to the point where I feel that we can't move forward in MM3A.

 

His main problem is that if there is more than one step in a problem (for example, we just learned order of operations, or if a word problem has you find one answer and use that to find the overall answer to the problem) he gets confused about how to use the numbers and what order to use them in.

 

He also has a lot of problems with missing addend problems. He can't identify which numbers are the parts and which is the whole, so he doesn't know which strategy to use to solve the problem (adding the parts for the whole; subtracting a part from the whole to find the other part).

 

I considered going back and redoing the MM2 material, but the problem isn't computational. It's a thought process problem. I don't want to continue pushing him forward, but I don't want to spend time just doing and redoing the same computation operations that he already knows.

 

I even considered getting TT just to back up and get another go at the material, but we already switched from RS to MM and I don't want to switch again.

 

Should we just detour to Evan-Moor's word problem books and work really hard on understanding word problems? Is there something else I can do to help my poor, frustrated son (and me)?

 

Tara

[Haiku]

Anyone?

 

Tara

[chepyl]

I would go back and review. Make up your own problems if you need to. Get the word problem book or Singapore Math CWP. Start with a lower level than where he is. Work one or two problems a day. My DS struggled with the problems at first, so we just did a couple a day. After a couple of weeks he could do them much faster. He can do 2 or more pages at a time now.

[Haiku]

I would go back and review.

 

The problem is that I don't know what to review. He can do math computation. He can't apply it to anything other than a straight math problem written on the page.

 

Tara

[Jay3fer]

We're using Evan Moor's word problems for Grade 1. They're pretty basic, and help kids go step by step.

You might back up into the 2nd grade book and just do one before math every day (that's what we do with the Grade 1 book).

 

You can preview all the problems as ePages at the Evan-Moor site to decide if it's something that might be useful to you. (I have TeacherFileBox - 30% off right now at HSBC! - and just print them off free)

[Hunter]

Strayer-Upton is a good option for extra word problems.

 

http://www.rainbowresource.com/prodlist.php?subject=10&category=9224

 

I ripped my book apart and put the day's lessons in a page protector. Sometimes I scan, enlarge and print certain pages.

 

I have some seizure related brain damage and am having to seriously remediate my maths. I switched from Strayer-Upton to Study Time for a bit, but switched back again, when I figured out how to make "worksheets".

 

This curriculum is very strong on application and speed.

[Momling]

We've had success with the Singapore "Process Skills in Problem Solving" (Fan Math or I-excel)

http://www.singaporemath.com/Fan_Math_Process_Skills_in_Prob_Solving_L2_p/fmpsps2.htm

 

They're not as challenging as the challenging word problems and they do a nice job of laying out how to solve the problems. I'd suggest going down a level or two to get the hang of the bar model.

[Farrar]

One of my ds is doing MM2b along with Singapore CWP. The CWP is what I feel like is teaching him that skill. He's doing it a year behind to help him build those skills and give him some confidence. I might take a MM break and try doing the Singapore CWP for grade 2.

[nmoira]

He also has a lot of problems with missing addend problems. He can't identify which numbers are the parts and which is the whole, so he doesn't know which strategy to use to solve the problem (adding the parts for the whole; subtracting a part from the whole to find the other part).

 

I'd start here before working on the word problems and multistep problems. C-rods with Miquon might do the trick. Alternatively, MEP Y1 and Y2 contain numerous problems in this type.

Edited January 18, 2012 by nmoira
autocorrect

[Critterfixer]

Second MEP. Both year 1 and 2 have a lot of work on identifying missing addends, and both use a addition/subtraction relay to help with holding numbers from one problem and using them in the second.

When I started this with the boys they were at first frustrated. I then made sure that they had a number line in front of them as we did them. So they would add 6+4 and put their finger on the ten to "hold it." Then the next part might be -8 so they would already be on the ten and could slide to the 2.

 

I don't feel that MEP is strong enough on word problems (only one or two per lesson) so I also want to add more word problem work. I was thinking about using Ray's Arithmetic rather than buying something for this year and looking at SM for CWP for next year. They don't need challenge at this point--basic will do just fine.

[Poke Salad Annie]

I'd start here before working on the word problems and multistep problems. C-rods with Miquon might do the trick. Alternately, MEP Y1 and Y2 contain numerous problems in this type.

 

:iagree:

 

I was going to suggest the first two years of MEP, too. I would also suggest working with the properties until he is comfortable, using C-rods if you have them.

[kolamum]

If it were my child I'd start doing applied math each day. I'd read mathematical books. I'd have him do a journal entry in regards to math each day. I would not touch a textbook until this particular thing were accomplished.

 

In fact, I've done this before and left the textbooks behind for a few years and my kids did fine, at grade level or beyond etc. :)

 

 

Here's a few examples:

 

1. Find a book{s} where child{ren} solve mathematical problems in more then one step. There's a WHOLE LIST of living math books out there to choose from. But don't limit yourself to just those!

 

2. Check out the Cyberchase math shows from PBS {also on youtube} and allow your child to watch a couple. We use to watch them at lunch time every day! My kids LOVED them, and still do. Basically it's a cartoon where children solve a problem with math. Then at the end of the shows they have an "On the street segment" where someone goes out in real life and applies the theories from the show.

 

3. Provide your child with a simpler version from the show/book. In fact, sometimes the books/shows have extras for teachers/parents. Scholastic has a book all about teaching Math with favourite picture books. It's AWESOME and we've used MANY of the lessons. One was about estimation and used the book Counting On Frank. We read the book and then estimated how many marbles would fit in a box. We had NOTHING to base our guesses on, then we did it again with information to base our guesses on. My kids adore that kinda stuff.

 

4. Next I'd have your child write down the theory from the book/show and come up with his own word problem based on the theory.

 

 

Another thing to do is make up simplistic word problems {to start with} roll them around a pencil so they make nifty little rolled up pieces of paper, and drop them in a jar with a lid. Each day have your son grab one out and solve it WITH PICTURE in his math journal. In otherwords. If the problem was Anna had 3 cookies and her Mum gave her 2 more how many does she have in all? He'd draw three cookies + two more and then draw a plate of five cookies. He'd then write down in words WHY he solved the problem as he did.

 

A great read for Mamma is A Collection Of Math lessons.. Get the Red & Blue book for your son's age level. They are awesome, full of fantastic hands on ideas and ways to help your children.

 

Lastly, is your son a math detective? By that, I mean does he know the clues for word problems? Find a piece of paper and freehand a magnifying glass on it. Draw a plus, minus, multiply, or divide sign on it. Then together write down all the words that will tell him he should do that particular method in math. If you scan the net you can find posters all ready made with the clues on them too. You could just snag those and print them out and either hang them near his work area or put them in the front of his math notebook. :)

[Haiku]

Thank you for all the ideas. I have come up with a plan that I think will help DS (and me) without making him feel like he's "bad at math."

 

Interestingly, I already had the Collection of Math Lessons books sitting on the hold shelf at the library. :) GMTA, I guess!

 

I found some good resources at Scholastic's Dollar Deals page this morning.

 

Tara

[Haiku]

With the missing addends, he needs to work with the fact families.

 

Thanks for the links.

 

The problem with missing addends is not with the easy problems. He knows the fact families. Something like 8 + ___ = 20 doesn't trip him up. 256 + ___ = 340 does. He needs to work on the strategy, and with the easy ones (fact families) he doesn't think about how he's doing it because it's so easy for him.

 

We have done parts/whole strategies for this ad nauseum. As long as we review it every day he remembers. Once we don't review it every day, he can no longer do it. It's because he can't identify parts and wholes in a math problem. He wants there to be a singe right answer (eg., the whole always comes after the equal sign), and there just isn't. It depends on how the problem is set up.

 

Tara

[Iucounu]

I would redo with SM. The bar model works wonders, and by the time it's drilled in, your son will be ready for more complicated multi step problems. I think he's got to start building up a picture of each problem in his head, instead of trying to fit it into a preconceived form. The specific order of presentation in SM 2 and 3 makes this easy and stress free. (From my phone)

 

ETA: I think just the textbooks would be enough.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Iucounu

[Haiku]

Math Mammoth uses the bar model, too. To me, the bar model is just another way of illustrating parts to whole. I do have the SM books for 2 and 3 sitting around, though, so I'll give it a look-see.

 

Tara

[jewel7123]

However, he can't do a word problem or any type of multi-step problem to save his life.

 

His main problem is that if there is more than one step in a problem (for example, we just learned order of operations, or if a word problem has you find one answer and use that to find the overall answer to the problem) he gets confused about how to use the numbers and what order to use them in.

 

He also has a lot of problems with missing addend problems. He can't identify which numbers are the parts and which is the whole, so he doesn't know which strategy to use to solve the problem (adding the parts for the whole; subtracting a part from the whole to find the other part).

 

I considered going back and redoing the MM2 material, but the problem isn't computational. It's a thought process problem. I don't want to continue pushing him forward, but I don't want to spend time just doing and redoing the same computation operations that he already knows.

 

I even considered getting TT just to back up and get another go at the material, but we already switched from RS to MM and I don't want to switch again.

 

 

 

Tara

 

Just curious, do you feel the problems he is having are a fault of the RS curriculum? As a RS user (we are on level B), should I be supplementing? :bigear:

[Haiku]

Just curious, do you feel the problems he is having are a fault of the RS curriculum?

 

No, I don't think so at all. He did very well with RS. Honestly, I think my ds just has some cognitive issues (which doesn't surprise me, as he was adopted from an orphanage and was malnourished when we got him). We left RS because I wasn't satisfied with C when my dd did it, but I think A and B did a fine job for my kids.

 

Tara

[Haiku]

He should be thinking add 4 to make a ten..that gets me to 260...add 40 that gets me to 300 add 40 more to 340...so 4+40+40 is 84.

 

Maybe I just have weird expectations, but he can do that. But that's not how I want him to solve that problem. To me, that's just counting up. In advanced math he won't be able to do that. He'll need to be able to solve the problem strategically, which is where knowing the parts and the whole come in. This is also a problem for him in word problems, where he often can't identify how to use the information he's been given because he can't determine what operation he needs to use (because he doesn't know if he needs to add parts to find a whole or subtract a part to find the other part).

 

Like I said, his computational abilities are fine. It's his problem-solving abilities that are lacking.

 

Tara

[mystika1]

Try re-doing this with Singapore Primary math. 256+__=340 being difficult means he doesn't have place value down. .

 

:iagree: That was my first thought as well. Maybe view the problem for 256+____=340 as 340-200 then -50 then -6. If it is broken down by hundreds/tens/ones he may see it better.

 

Penny

[go_go_gadget]

Maybe I just have weird expectations, but he can do that. But that's not how I want him to solve that problem. To me, that's just counting up. In advanced math he won't be able to do that. He'll need to be able to solve the problem strategically, which is where knowing the parts and the whole come in.

 

I'm a math major, my father is a nuclear physicist, and the procedure described (or the reverse, strategically subtracting by hundreds, tens, and ones) is *exactly* the way we approach that type of problem. How would you rather he do it?

 

 

This is also a problem for him in word problems, where he often can't identify how to use the information he's been given because he can't determine what operation he needs to use (because he doesn't know if he needs to add parts to find a whole or subtract a part to find the other part).

 

If you have RS, you've probably done some manipulative work already, but might more be helpful in this situation? Using an abacus or c-rods to solve exclusively word problems for a few weeks might help considerably.

[nmoira]

Maybe I just have weird expectations, but he can do that. But that's not how I want him to solve that problem. To me, that's just counting up. In advanced math he won't be able to do that.

I can do advanced math, and that's how I do those calculations.

 

He'll need to be able to solve the problem strategically, which is where knowing the parts and the whole come in.

I agree with this in principle, but it's not so straightforward. If I'm understanding this correctly, his (quite efficient) manner of mental calculation is not to your liking because you feel it is interfering with his being able to conceptualize the underlying problem. If this is the case, I'd have him do some number line work. This might better allow him to see how his manner of calculation relates to difference and parts/wholes.

[Iucounu]

I think we've gotten off track. The heart of the problem is not doing the computation; it's figuring out what to do with the numbers before computation begins. It's also not about doing mental math, unless I missed something.

 

His main problem is that if there is more than one step in a problem... he gets confused about how to use the numbers and what order to use them in... He can't identify which numbers are the parts and which is the whole, so he doesn't know which strategy to use to solve the problem (adding the parts for the whole; subtracting a part from the whole to find the other part)... the problem isn't computational. It's a thought process problem.

 

The reason that the thread got derailed a bit, I think, was confusion over the fact that he can do a certain type of problem with smaller numbers but not larger ones. However, he's able to calculate the operations with those same bigger numbers-- he's just not able to select the type or order of computations correctly.

[Haiku]

he's just not able to select the type or order of computations correctly.

 

Exactly.

 

How do you want him to solve it?

 

I want him to subtract 256 from 340, but more important than that, I want him to know why he can use this strategy.

 

Maybe view the problem for 256+____=340 as 340-200 then -50 then -6. If it is broken down by hundreds/tens/ones he may see it better.

 

That right there is the problem. He doesn't see it as a subtraction problem.

 

Let me put it this way. If it were the following word problem: School A has 340 students. 256 students are girls. How many students are boys?, he would not be able to solve the problem. He would not be able to recognize which number was the whole and which were the parts, so he would not know how to order them or what operation to use. He would not be able to set up the appropriate equation to solve the problem. I think a 3rd grader should be able to do this, and based on the several math curricula I have reviewed, I'm not alone in that thinking. His standard response to a word problem is to add together whatever numbers he is given, and then he doesn't understand why the resulting answer isn't correct.

 

Tara

[ChrissySC]

I think perhaps that his problem lies with his mathematical thinking. Do you do any logic workbooks? There are quite a few good ones by Bonnie Risby.

 

There are modern, new, and revised versions of Ray's Intellectual Arithmetic. Thinking math will go a long way to working with word problems and devloping a mind set that can handle multiple steps.

 

google book and new

[Crimson Wife]

Just curious, do you feel the problems he is having are a fault of the RS curriculum? As a RS user (we are on level B), should I be supplementing? :bigear:

 

I love, love, love RS B but do feel that one of its biggest weaknesses is the lack of word problem work. With my oldest, I waited until RS C to add in Singapore CWP but with DS, I started adding in CWP and Singapore IP partway through RS B.

[Crimson Wife]

Let me put it this way. If it were the following word problem: School A has 340 students. 256 students are girls. How many students are boys?, he would not be able to solve the problem. He would not be able to recognize which number was the whole and which were the parts, so he would not know how to order them or what operation to use. He would not be able to set up the appropriate equation to solve the problem. I think a 3rd grader should be able to do this, and based on the several math curricula I have reviewed, I'm not alone in that thinking. His standard response to a word problem is to add together whatever numbers he is given, and then he doesn't understand why the resulting answer isn't correct.

 

Tara

 

My oldest can solve a straight-forward equation easy-peasy but she has always had much more difficulty with word problems. Because of this, I have placed a lot of emphasis on solving word problems in our HS. After all, the math most of us use in our day-to-day lives typically comes in the form of a word problem rather than being given an equation to solve.

 

Crimson Wife has $80 in her pocketbook plus some change. She will have to pay a $25 co-pay at the pediatrician's office and also needs to buy a dozen eggs at $3.59. The "empty" light just came on. Does she have enough cash to fill up her 12 gallon tank at $3.79/gallon, or should she use her debit card?

 

I use Singapore CWP and IP, Kumon's word problems series, the Edward Zacarro Challenge Math series, and the Hands-on Equations Verbal Problems book. That sounds like a lot, but she skips the regular Singapore workbook so it isn't overwhelming. I personally feel like she gets more benefit from working through a few word problems than a lot of straightforward equations.

[Haiku]

you don't want him to use mental math subtraction by decomposition. You want him to set up a written equation. Correct?

 

Yes. I know that some people have said that they use the "counting up" strategy with high-level math, but I guess what I am thinking of is more along the lines of an algebraic equation. If the ___ in 256 + ___ = 340 is the variable (y), then we basically have a situation where the equation is 256 + y = 340. How does one solve, algebraically, such an equation? By adding -256 to each side (or, in practice, subtracting 256 from 340). So we end up with an equation of y = 340 - 256. And as one gets into harder equations, using fractions and exponents and the like, you can't just "count up" to find the answer.

 

Clarifying that in my mind has helped me see that this is a very complicated concept, and I am not surprised that ds doesn't get it, but then again, it seems to be a standard belief in 3rd grade math curricula that the student can do this.

 

Does he see a problem with simpler numbers as subtraction? For example, 14 students, 5 are girls, how many are boys? How about if you change the language? 14 students, 5 go to the library, how many stay in the classroom? Can he set these up as written equations?

 

 

I just asked him these questions (although I changed the numbers in the second one to 13 and 5). He got the answer right both times, and when I asked him how he did it, he said, "I added 5 to the 5 to get 10, and then 4 more/3 more." So even with the smaller numbers, he doesn't see them as subtraction problems.

 

Thanks for the tips on handling word problems. I am going to combine that with the "math detective" strategy someone else mentioned to really hone in on understanding how to solve word problems.

 

I think we are going to take a break from MM for a while. I will use some worksheets from worksheetworks.com and the MM extra worksheet maker to keep the computational skills sharp, but we are going to detour into more real-life math and focused work on problem-solving strategies. I have the Evan-Moor Daily Word Problem books, and Math and Logic Word Problems (which I love and used with RS but stopped using with MM because I felt MM had adequate word problems), and yesterday I read through the Collection of Math Lessons mentioned upthread, and I really that those. I'm also going to revisit our Lollipop Logic books to work on logical thinking with ds.

 

Thanks for all the help, everyone. :) I'm feeling more encouraged. I like to have a plan.

 

Tara

[Haiku]

Hands-on Equations

 

I'm thinking I might buy this, even though it's quite spendy, to go through with ds ins a few years. I've looked at it before and it looks neat and like something that would click with ds.

 

I also might be thinking too far ahead, but I am considering using Teaching Textbooks with ds after he finishes MM. I know that many people have said that TT is too "lite" in the upper levels, but I have also read many threads about TT turning math disaster into math success. I'm not going to decide ds's future at 9 years old, but if he turns out not to be mathy (dd 10 is very mathy) and isn't headed into a math/science field (which is not where his interests lie; I see him possibly going into sports marketing. Dd, on the other hand, is very interested in a science-related career), I don't think it so much matters whether he has an extremely meaty high school math career. I would rather him feel good about his math abilities than feel math-dumb.

 

As I mentioned earlier, ds was adopted from an orphanage and was mal-nourished when we got him. He has some cognitive and learning issues that are becoming more manifest only as he gets older, so this is somewhat new territory for us.

 

FWIW, I graduated early from high school. I did very well. I took trig in high school. From trig, I remember that there are such things as sines, cosines, and tangents, but I don't remember what they are. :blush: Dh's father was a math major. Dh took algebra in 7th grade because his father declared any math after 6th grade that wasn't algebra or higher was "bonehead" math. :lol: By the time dh graduated high school, he had taken college-level calc at the community college next-door to his school.

 

Tara

Edited January 19, 2012 by TaraTheLiberator

[Iucounu]

He is seeing them as number bonds,which is great. Many can't, and fall back on memorization.

I agree. After further thought, I think that what's happening is just that he gets flummoxed upon seeing the bigger numbers. Either he simply doubts his ability to deal with the twin complications of an equation and multidigit calculations at the same time, or he gets confused when he starts thinking about the problem because he's simultaneously realizing he's going to have to do the pencil-and-paper carrying work, plus he's got to figure out the right calculation to do.

 

OP, I noticed that the Scholastic Teacher Express $1 sale is still going on. I just downloaded some of those PDFs, and it seems to me that some of them might give some good drop-in prealgebra concept practice that isn't stressful for him, perhaps for example the "Algebra Readiness Made Easy" ones. Good luck-- I think you'll get through this soon, as I would bet that there's not a huge fundamental conceptual gap at work.

 

ETA: ... and, of course, I got off track too. I really think that for the aspect of not identifying parts and wholes in the wording of the problem, he just needs some more practice, and SM does a great job of building up that ability.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Iucounu

[In the Rain]

Would talking through the problem and drawing pictures help? Sometimes I do this with my dds.

 

My youngest is quick to randomly add or subtract whatever numbers she sees in the word problem. :blink: I make her talk through the problem with me, and possibly draw pictures to help. Sometimes I'll use smaller numbers to help demonstrate the process.

 

It is time consuming, but I don't really know what else to do either.

[Haiku]

Math Mammoth has students writing algebraic equations and working with negative numbers in third?

 

 

No, but it does expect students to be able to solve a problem like the one I illustrated in the word problem numerically, to be able to take the information provided in the word problem and come up with 340 - 256 = 84.

 

Tara

[nmoira]

Would talking through the problem and drawing pictures help? Sometimes I do this with my dds.

 

My youngest is quick to randomly add or subtract whatever numbers she sees in the word problem. :blink: I make her talk through the problem with me, and possibly draw pictures to help. Sometimes I'll use smaller numbers to help demonstrate the process.

 

It is time consuming, but I don't really know what else to do either.

 

I know I'm repeating myself, but there's nothing better to illustrate the concept of difference than a number line.

[Haiku]

"Algebra Readiness Made Easy"

 

GMTA. I bought 2-6 yesterday. :)

 

Tara

[kandty]

I didn't have time to read the responses, but I wanted to add my two cents. :D My oldest struggled with word problems. Even at the beginning of this school year he told me that he doesn't understand what he is suppose to do to solve them. I have just been doing them with him. Walking him through the problems. Now, after 5 months of doing all word problems together, he has greatly improved! He just took a little longer and lots of one-on-one practice. Just give it time.

[Penelope]

After further thought, I think that what's happening is just that he gets flummoxed upon seeing the bigger numbers.

 

It could be. I remember my son getting stuck on word problems. I'd do them with him for a while. We'd draw pictures. And most of the time, he'd get it if I'd make up the same problem using smaller (or simpler, in the case of fractions, multiplication, division) numbers. It's a strategy I remember using myself many times as a student in test situations where I could not figure out what they were asking.

 

After doing the problems with him enough times, he became much better at word problems.

[Haiku]

Ok, so here's what I did.

 

I created a Math Grab Bag. In it I put seven things: 1) A math library book (a living book, which will be changed out whenever we finish one) 2) Math and Logic Word Problems, grade 1-2 3) Evan Moor's Daily Word Problems, grade 2 4) Some worksheets from worksheetworks.com (some just straight computation, some puzzles and games) 5) The Math Detective magnifying glass picture I printed off (to be used to compile a list of words in word problems that indicate how to solve the problem 6) Lollipop Logic 7) Right Start's math card games book.

 

I may or may not add 8) Collection of Math Lessons. They are cool, but they are planned out lessons that require materials and time.

 

I numbered each, and I put two envelopes in the bag: To Do and Finished.

 

Every day, ds will pick three numbers from the bag. We will work 10 minutes from each of the three items he selects. We will move the three numbers from To Do to Finished until all have been moved over. Then I will move all the numbers back to To Do.

 

We will do this for one month without me worrying about math or that he's getting behind or whatever. I marked in my Google calendar when the month is up. I am not allowed to worry during this month.

 

Then I will evaluate our progress and decide where to go from there. I may introduce some MM stuff back in at that point.

 

I am not creative. I am not free spirited. I am not a unit studier. I am not an unschooler. I do not come up with neat ideas. I like structured plans and lessons. I am proud of myself that I created the Math Grab Bag. :D

 

Tara

[Haiku]

Will he be drawing pictures or using base10 blocks to understand the problems?

 

I don't own any base-10 blocks, so for now we will be drawing pictures. I'll have to look into buying base-10 blocks, but we also have to RS abacus, so we could use that.

 

Tara

[Haiku]

Ds had a lot of fun this morning. I didn't tell him about the Math Grab Bag until it was math time. He was really tickled that I had created it just for him. He asked if we can do just that for a month and was happy when I said yes.

 

I added two things to the Grab Bag: 8) 2nd Grade Mental Math (a pdf file I have on my Kindle) and 9) Fact Families. For Fact Families we will work with neon-colored markers on a dry erase board, using the different colors to illustrate how you can move the numbers around to create the different equations.

 

I just opened a soda to split with the kids. I said, "Hey, Neeley, if this soda has 12 ounces and three of us are drinking it, how much do we each get?" He said, "Four, because 4 + 4 + 4 = 12. Unless you gave yourself more."

 

I also graded the chapter review for his last MM chapter. He scored a whopping 19% correct. :/

 

Tara