Will college-prep become obsolete?

[TheHomeScientist]

I was reading an interesting article the other day, although I can no longer find it. The article was talking about the proliferation of free on-line university courses from MIT and the like. The thing about those courses, of course, is that you can learn the material but you don't get a degree from MIT after you've done so. But that may be changing. Students who complete on-line courses are now able to be tested on the specific skills covered in those courses and get certificates that show they mastered each specific topic covered in the material.

 

The article makes the point that having a college or university degree doesn't really say much in terms of specifics. Even a full transcript says only that you took certain courses and received certain grades in those courses. A BS in chemistry from Duke, for example, tells me that the graduate fulfilled all of Duke's requirements for graduation and took the courses required by the chemistry department for that major. If I see the transcript, I'd know that the graduate got, say, an A in first-year organic chemistry and a B in physical chemistry. But these certificates are much finer-grained. Someone who's been studying organic chemistry on-line, for example, might have one certificate showing that he mastered (for example) Grignard reactions, and numerous other certificates for that same course showing that he mastered other aspects of organic chemistry.

 

Someone who went through many of these on-line university courses might end up with literally hundreds of certificates. And apparently employers are starting to take these certificates seriously as an alternative to a formal degree. So I wonder if this is where things are headed. Will parents who are homeschooling elementary-age kids now end up homeschooling all the way through university (and, I suppose, potentially, graduate school)?

 

Obviously, college costs have gotten completely out of hand, and I wonder if what we're seeing now will eventually redefine the whole mechanism of tertiary education.

[jewellsmommy]

I was reading an interesting article the other day, although I can no longer find it. The article was talking about the proliferation of free on-line university courses from MIT and the like. The thing about those courses, of course, is that you can learn the material but you don't get a degree from MIT after you've done so. But that may be changing. Students who complete on-line courses are now able to be tested on the specific skills covered in those courses and get certificates that show they mastered each specific topic covered in the material.

 

The article makes the point that having a college or university degree doesn't really say much in terms of specifics. Even a full transcript says only that you took certain courses and received certain grades in those courses. A BS in chemistry from Duke, for example, tells me that the graduate fulfilled all of Duke's requirements for graduation and took the courses required by the chemistry department for that major. If I see the transcript, I'd know that the graduate got, say, an A in first-year organic chemistry and a B in physical chemistry. But these certificates are much finer-grained. Someone who's been studying organic chemistry on-line, for example, might have one certificate showing that he mastered (for example) Grignard reactions, and numerous other certificates for that same course showing that he mastered other aspects of organic chemistry.

 

Someone who went through many of these on-line university courses might end up with literally hundreds of certificates. And apparently employers are starting to take these certificates seriously as an alternative to a formal degree. So I wonder if this is where things are headed. Will parents who are homeschooling elementary-age kids now end up homeschooling all the way through university (and, I suppose, potentially, graduate school)?

 

Obviously, college costs have gotten completely out of hand, and I wonder if what we're seeing now will eventually redefine the whole mechanism of tertiary education.

 

 

 

Wow, that would be wonderful! I hope this is a picture of the future. It would certainly encourage people to make education a continuing part of their lives. This seems like a great way to keep costs down too.

[OLG]

I am intrigued by this 'certification' by top universities too! My initial thought was that it was akin to the certification employed workers receive say, for tech or education and this might be why employers are responsive to the universities offerings and certification. Am not sure we are quite there though with regard to utilizing these courses for homeschooling college. I 'suspect' there is some movement afoot for the schools themselves to roll these courses into more sophisticated 'online' programs in order to generate funds for themselves int he rapidly growing online market. Just my two cents!

[creekland]

I think these can easily replace degrees for people who are in the field, but lack the piece of paper (and nowadays go back to school to get the paper). I can also see them adding to degrees for more direct specialties.

 

I don't really foresee them replacing the traditional 4 year college out of high school. Tradition takes a lot to overcome, plus, more is learned in college than just the coursework (for both better and worse).

[regentrude]

I can see the value of online courses for certain degrees and areas, but I do not believe an online education can and will completely replace a traditional university education.

For one thing, only certain subjects lend themselves to online instruction. Anything that requires a lab component is just not doable.

 

Also, if you are thinking of certificates in very specific, detailed areas, I would imagine that it requires a great deal of expertise to construct a comprehensive education from all these little building blocks. I am a physicist, and if you were to build a substantial undergraduate education from such small components (as opposed to full courses), you need an expert advisor so that you do not leave any gaps in your collection of one hundred certificates. The student himself does not possess this knowledge.

 

I can see the online certificate process to be very valuable in continuing education, because a person who already has a fundamental education in a specific field will be in a better position to select form the course offerings.

 

But I do not see online education replace face-to-face education. Despite the number of websites and online tutorials and free resources available to any of my students, the students who perform best in my physics class are the ones who attend lectures and face-to-face help session. I am not seeing them taking advantage of online options on a large scale.

Students do have the option to receive credit by examination; they could acquire their knowledge in self study, from online or textbook resources, at home. In ten years of teaching introductory physics, I have not had one single student request this option.

[In The Great White North]

On-line education will not replace the traditional four year college unless:

 

1. The institutions resulting diploma does not indicate whether it was on line or in person (as in: employers and graduates schools won't be able to tell which you did) or

 

2. Enough people quit getting traditional four year degrees that employers and graduate schools have no choice but to hire/accept people with online certificates.

 

I don't see either happening in the near future.

[Dmmetler]

I fully expect my DD to need to get a formal college degree in order to go into a professional field, just because I can't see that going away in the next decade, but I like the idea of being able to "outsource" higher level high school and possibly even college work to free and low cost online options. For example, I can't imagine that doing a Freshman physics class online through, say, MIT or CMU, for no-credit, wouldn't be good preparation for the AP physics exam (which potentially DOES have a financial value)-and the price is right!

[TheHomeScientist]

I can see the value of online courses for certain degrees and areas, but I do not believe an online education can and will completely replace a traditional university education.

For one thing, only certain subjects lend themselves to online instruction. Anything that requires a lab component is just not doable.

 

Also, if you are thinking of certificates in very specific, detailed areas, I would imagine that it requires a great deal of expertise to construct a comprehensive education from all these little building blocks. I am a physicist, and if you were to build a substantial undergraduate education from such small components (as opposed to full courses), you need an expert advisor so that you do not leave any gaps in your collection of one hundred certificates. The student himself does not possess this knowledge.

 

I can see the online certificate process to be very valuable in continuing education, because a person who already has a fundamental education in a specific field will be in a better position to select form the course offerings.

 

But I do not see online education replace face-to-face education. Despite the number of websites and online tutorials and free resources available to any of my students, the students who perform best in my physics class are the ones who attend lectures and face-to-face help session. I am not seeing them taking advantage of online options on a large scale.

Students do have the option to receive credit by examination; they could acquire their knowledge in self study, from online or textbook resources, at home. In ten years of teaching introductory physics, I have not had one single student request this option.

 

No, it's not the coursework that's fine-grained. Students can take on-line courses that are essentially identical to what they'd get sitting in a classroom: the same textbooks and supplemental materials, watching the same lectures, and so on. It's the testing and certification that's fine-grained. I might take a first-year organic chemistry course and then take 20 different exams that focus on specific aspects of organic chemistry. For each exam I took, I'd get a certificate saying that I'd mastered that particular aspect. Actually, I understand that some of the certificates differentiate different levels--just passed, passed with flying colors, completely nailed it, and so on.

 

The point about lab courses is certainly valid, but I can see that problem disappearing as well. Right now, for example, there are places in many cities that provide expensive equipment to anyone who walks in the door. (They often, of course, have requirements about knowing enough to use the equipment without damaging it.) Even in mid-size cities there are often facilities where one can book time on, say, a CNC milling machine or an NMR or a GC/MS. Kind of like the old community darkrooms, but with a science/engineering twist.

[Tess in the Burbs]

well Dh is running into the certificate issue at work. He has a BS degree in CS and has been working for over 14 years in his field. His current job requires him to get 2 certificates to keep his job. He has never had this issue at any other job. It seems to be future of employers. He doesn't mind continuing education...a class here and there but these certificate tests he is required to take are hundreds of $$$. He has very little time to study. And if he fails he will not be reimbursed. Only if he passes do we get the money back.

[elegantlion]

I got stuck in the gap years ago when I entered the work force. I didn't attend college for a plethora of reasons, and thought I could work my way up in a profession. My dad's position of broadcast engineer even went to requiring a degree in the late 80s.

 

I'd like to see the blanket need of a BA/BS to get hired go away. I'm thinking mostly white collar jobs that don't require specialized training. I worked at several jobs where I did the same thing as degreed individuals. I'd like to see a return to old fashioned work ethic and on the job training (most job require training anyway). I'd like to see more value on that vs the get-you-in-the-door-piece-of-paper. Certifications could be a good way to handle that. I was hired through a temporary agency for a few jobs, they understood my qualifications.

[creekland]

I got stuck in the gap years ago when I entered the work force. I didn't attend college for a plethora of reasons, and thought I could work my way up in a profession. My dad's position of broadcast engineer even went to requiring a degree in the late 80s.

 

I'd like to see the blanket need of a BA/BS to get hired go away. I'm thinking mostly white collar jobs that don't require specialized training. I worked at several jobs where I did the same thing as degreed individuals. I'd like to see a return to old fashioned work ethic and on the job training (most job require training anyway). I'd like to see more value on that vs the get-you-in-the-door-piece-of-paper. Certifications could be a good way to handle that. I was hired through a temporary agency for a few jobs, they understood my qualifications.

 

One student in our high school two years ago told me she needed a 4 year degree to be an airline stewardess. My first thought was, WHY? It's hearsay only because I never substantiated what she told me, but it goes along with the trend of needing a degree to be a new hire.

 

More kids are applying to colleges, not less. I don't see 4 year colleges going away anytime soon. While the "supply" of college age students in the US is soon to be heading down, more applicants are coming from overseas - according to posts on college confidential anyway.

 

I know 6 adults in real life who are also working on degrees (2 finish this year). They reached ceilings in their jobs. All are sending or have sent their kids to college right after their high school years. Certificates would be a great substitution for those folks (the parents). They've been at their jobs for years.

[kiana]

I'd like to see the blanket need of a BA/BS to get hired go away. I'm thinking mostly white collar jobs that don't require specialized training. I worked at several jobs where I did the same thing as degreed individuals. I'd like to see a return to old fashioned work ethic and on the job training (most job require training anyway). I'd like to see more value on that vs the get-you-in-the-door-piece-of-paper. Certifications could be a good way to handle that. I was hired through a temporary agency for a few jobs, they understood my qualifications.

 

If we had some other certificate of functional literacy and numeracy at a reasonable level (now that a high school diploma no longer serves), it might.

 

I've actually talked to several small employers who've moved recently to requiring at least an AA because of difficulties with literacy levels of applicants -- and for some reason, requiring a qualification tends to be okay while having a test tends to be 'discriminatory'

[TheHomeScientist]

If we had some other certificate of functional literacy and numeracy at a reasonable level (now that a high school diploma no longer serves), it might

 

A college degree is heading the same way, particularly for rigorous fields. If I were going to hire a BS chemist or mathematician, for example, I'd take a BS in chemistry or math from Duke or MIT or Caltech as reasonable assurance that the person had mastered chemistry or math at the undergrad level. But I sure wouldn't look at a degree from some random state university or private college as assuring the same.

 

In non-rigorous fields, even a degree from a prestigious institution doesn't say all that much about the person who holds it. There are too many examples of such people who hold a college degree but are barely literate or numerate.

 

That's why I think we're ultimately heading for certification programs like the Khan Academy badges. If someone can show me independently-attested evidence that he or she has mastered the skills I want to hire, I don't really care if that person has a college/university degree.

[fhjmom]

On-line education will not replace the traditional four year college unless:

 

1. The institutions resulting diploma does not indicate whether it was on line or in person (as in: employers and graduates schools won't be able to tell which you did) or

 

2. Enough people quit getting traditional four year degrees that employers and graduate schools have no choice but to hire/accept people with online certificates.

 

I don't see either happening in the near future.

 

This is already happening.

 

I am currently enrolled in the Masters of Deaf Education program at Texas Woman's University and taking all my classes online. They also offer the classes on-campus. There will be nothing on my degree upon graduation differentiating those students who attended virtually from those that attended classes IRL.

[beaners]

This is already happening.

 

I am currently enrolled in the Masters of Deaf Education program at Texas Woman's University and taking all my classes online. They also offer the classes on-campus. There will be nothing on my degree upon graduation differentiating those students who attended virtually from those that attended classes IRL.

 

You can do this with lots of Masters programs, but it's harder to find an online undergrad degree option with any school that isn't known for its online presence. It's even harder if you don't want to do something like English or History.

[kiana]

A college degree is heading the same way, particularly for rigorous fields. If I were going to hire a BS chemist or mathematician, for example, I'd take a BS in chemistry or math from Duke or MIT or Caltech as reasonable assurance that the person had mastered chemistry or math at the undergrad level. But I sure wouldn't look at a degree from some random state university or private college as assuring the same.

 

In non-rigorous fields, even a degree from a prestigious institution doesn't say all that much about the person who holds it. There are too many examples of such people who hold a college degree but are barely literate or numerate.

 

That's why I think we're ultimately heading for certification programs like the Khan Academy badges. If someone can show me independently-attested evidence that he or she has mastered the skills I want to hire, I don't really care if that person has a college/university degree.

 

Oh, I agree with you ... but I still think it shows more than a high school diploma at the moment. But what you're saying is why a lot of fields are now going to master's/phd when they used to require a bachelor's.

[mcconnellboys]

I hope that it will change favorably, and that earning these certificates will be monitored in some way so that it is known that the person earning the certificate really did complete the work on their own, rather than having someone else test for them, etc. I would hate to see any sort of dishonesty spoil this for everyone else....

[keptwoman]

This is already happening.

 

I am currently enrolled in the Masters of Deaf Education program at Texas Woman's University and taking all my classes online. They also offer the classes on-campus. There will be nothing on my degree upon graduation differentiating those students who attended virtually from those that attended classes IRL.

There is a New Zealand university that has been offering extra mural education for years. Not in all subjects, but in many at both under grad and grad levels. It has an excellent reputation for both campus and extra mural courses, now I'm sure it's not one of the worlds top Unis or anything, but if I had an extramural degree from them and applied for a job in NZ, I would not be looked down on as opposed to someone who attended the campus.

[creekland]

A college degree is heading the same way, particularly for rigorous fields. If I were going to hire a BS chemist or mathematician, for example, I'd take a BS in chemistry or math from Duke or MIT or Caltech as reasonable assurance that the person had mastered chemistry or math at the undergrad level. But I sure wouldn't look at a degree from some random state university or private college as assuring the same.

 

In non-rigorous fields, even a degree from a prestigious institution doesn't say all that much about the person who holds it. There are too many examples of such people who hold a college degree but are barely literate or numerate.

 

That's why I think we're ultimately heading for certification programs like the Khan Academy badges. If someone can show me independently-attested evidence that he or she has mastered the skills I want to hire, I don't really care if that person has a college/university degree.

 

Local engineering firms I know lean toward accepting particular colleges too (and not others) due to capability of grads. The two preferred schools around here are Penn St and Va Tech. Small privates won't even get a look no matter how prestigious they are. They simply don't have the facilities (labs) to give the experience the larger state schools do.

 

But there's no way we'd switch to accepting certificates without experience in the field. How would we know the person claiming to have gotten the online certificate is the one who has the knowledge? It seems really too easy to have a sit in replacement for the test - easier than the recent SAT cheating scandal. A degree from a respected U, especially if it comes with a prof recommendation or a previous internship, is FAR preferred.

 

But for engineering, more is required than a degree anyway. There are the EIT, and later, the PE exams. I suppose those other certificates are a way of doing similar things in other fields. I just don't see them replacing a degree unless one has experience.