s/o reporting for educational neglect

[StephanieZ]

Bare minimum:

 

1) reading well and widely. (Close to grade level competency in reading fiction and non fiction)

2) written and verbal competency. (Close to grade level competency in composing comprehensible non-fiction english communication in writing, and communicating clearly verbally. Creative writing/communication is optional.)

3) math (close to grade level competency in arithmetic as an elementary student, algebra by grade 9, and continued math throughout highschool)

 

When I say close to grade level, I generally mean within a year or two of grade level unless the child has clear limitations (which are being addressed appropriately).

 

And, I would allow for a wide range of "on grade level" depending on educational philosophy and approach, and depending on the age/subject. I wouldn't freak out about a (normal) 7 yo not reading yet, but I would freak out about a (normal) 16 yo not learning Algebra yet.

 

Personally, those are my red lines. IMHO, without those three foundational skills, it will be very hard for a child to have many choices in the future. But, with those three fundamentals, the child can probably switch on to a more demanding academic track at almost any time with little loss.

 

(And, of course, there are more moderate degrees of educational failure that I wouldn't APPROVE of or CHOOSE for my own family, but I wouldn't actually feel you are doing something REALLY BAD or NEGLECTFUL if you were keeping your kid up with those very basic fundamentals.)

[Sebastian (a lady)]

To play devil's advocate could you turn that around? To say that parental and school educational choices left the student with little option on graduation to try to pursue a trade?

 

I'm expecting my kids to go to college. But I also really value the shop class I had and the hours in our shop with my dad (I was the only kid I knew who took welding projects home to work on), pulling stumps, helping on the cars, driving a tractor, et cetera.

 

A choice isn't much of a choice if only one option is presented.

[SunD]

My bare minimum is reading, writing, and math on grade level. That's the absolute minimum I expect from myself and my children, barring learning issues. Past K, that is. I would not expect most boys to be writing what the local K expects.

 

The bare minimum I expect from others is a different thing altogether. That would be what they would be getting at the local PS, which is supposedly totally fair and adequate, given that DH and I can't sue them for educationally neglecting us as children. For reading, reading multisyllable words or able to sound them out (seriously, there are people who were in my classes who still, as adults, have to haltingly sound out the word "American"). Functional but not what I would consider literate. Writing, able to write legibly (print, cursive, block letters, whatever) and at least use phonetic spelling so others can mostly understand your meaning. Math would be multi-digit addition and subtraction, and multiplication and division (not necessarily long division). That's what the PS provides in a lot of cases here. I would think to myself that it was woefully inadequate, but I wouldn't have a real problem with it and the truth is that it would be enough to survive on. Not enough to have choices, really, but enough to get you by.

 

Now I'm going to be sad thinking about all my classmates who just get the paper for the sale ads because they can't read the rest. :crying:

[momma aimee]

So, the other thread about reporting a family for educational neglect has me wondering, exactly what do you consider to be a bare minimum for a family to do be doing in order to avoid being thought of as neglectful? (I have a feeling that by some people's definitions, I would be considered woefully uneducated.)

 

there is no set answer -- it is based on age and ablity.

 

also EFFORT -- if you child can't do fractions -- but he or she does math 4 days a week and you work on it -- that is one thing

 

if you child can't do fractions and is 13 and has never seen one -- that is something else

[Mrs Mungo]

I have been involved with the homeschooling community a long time now. I know lots of homeschoolers who have graduated kids and sent them to college/work. Some of those who appeared to have rigorous schedules wound up struggling in college. Some of those who looked like slackers of the highest order have graduated kids from Princeton. Some of the later group had kids who caught up later with or without the help of family friends or tutors in high school.

 

That is why I would be hesitant to label or report most families.

 

I understand why those with less actual experience with homeschoolers would feel differently.

[MegP]

:iagree:

Also, it worries me that some homeschooling families would put others in a bad light, thereby, jeopardizing the legality of homeschooling in the future. I know that many public schools don't live up to educational standards that are set, but IMO that doesn't mean that homeschoolers should then point to that as an excuse for having low expectations for themselves. Like it or not, public schools will never have the same spotlight put on them as homeschools do. I think it is important to make sure we then work to achieve more rather than less.

 

Lesley

 

I totally agree. The homeschooling laws where I live keep getting stricter because some homeschoolers have no expectations or goals for their children, and don't care that their 12 year olds are not reading and have never heard of multiplying and dividing. The state is cracking down and revoking these parents' rights to homeschool. It is unfair to the rest of us who are working HARD to teach our kids because the laws are getting so strict.

[momma aimee]

I totally agree. The homeschooling laws where I live keep getting stricter because some homeschoolers have no expectations or goals for their children, and don't care that their 12 year olds are not reading and have never heard of multiplying and dividing. The state is cracking down and revoking these parents' rights to homeschool. It is unfair to the rest of us who are working HARD to teach our kids because the laws are getting so strict.

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

Originally Posted by melissel

(I'm not picking on you, Starr, just using your quote as a jumping-off spot--several posters made the same point.)

 

Why is it that when issues like this come up here, it's always the woman who gets put in the position of providing the act of love/service? Wouldn't it be equally an act of love/service for the DH here to say, "You know what, hon, I get that you didn't plan to or want to cook this morning, so I'll go ahead and eat the French toast or grab something else from the fridge. Go ahead and relax."? I feel like it's always the women who are expected to bend in these situations.

 

I agree that it would have been an act of love to happily make him the sandwich for breakfast. But if you were feeling overly stretched or out of sorts, I think it would have been a prime moment for him to perform his own act of love and let you off the hook.

e have to police ourselves, and hold ourselves to strict standards -- or someone else will

[Momof3littles]

I have been involved with the homeschooling community a long time now. I know lots of homeschoolers who have graduated kids and sent them to college/work. Some of those who appeared to have rigorous schedules wound up struggling in college. Some of those who looked like slackers of the highest order have graduated kids from Princeton. Some of the later group had kids who caught up later with or without the help of family friends or tutors in high school.

 

That is why I would be hesitant to label or report most families.

 

I understand why those with less actual experience with homeschoolers would feel differently.

 

ITA. i haven't been a HSer for an incredibly long time, but have followed and read about HSing since DS1's infancy nearly 8 yrs ago. We've had more "unschooly" years, and are currently more classical HSers.

 

There are parents who may not have children "on grade level" at all times, but that isn't educational neglect. I don't believe everyone needs to follow state standards or keep their child on grade level at all times, by any means. I think a rich environment (even if that's varied library books, not expensive materials) and an involved parent can provide an incredibly enriching experience, far, far, far from neglect. The family might US, the child may not be "on grade level" (which IMO much of what is "on grade level" is honestly somewhat meaningless for many subjects), the child may have asynchronous development of skills, but that child might have an incredibly enriched education. One child may not be on grade level in one subject but be far above grade level in several other subjects. In some cases I don't think the expectations for a child being on grade level these days are always developmentally appropriate.

 

As someone who has worked in early intervention and has worked with families in crisis, families suspected of neglect/abuse, etc. I don't take reporting "educational neglect" lightly at all. I would be very, very hesitant to label someone as educationally neglecting their child.

 

I agree with most of Pamela H's post as well.

Edited December 10, 2011 by Momof3littles

[TracyR]

I can't imagine reporting a family for educational neglect. What about radical homeschoolers? Should they be reported? I would never report a family unless there was outright physical abuse or neglect taking place.

:iagree:

Absolutely. I would never report unless actual physical abuse and neglect was taking place.

With all of the posts I've read here today , I can honestly say EVERYONE has a different definition of what they feel a good education is.

 

We aren't able to do half of what most people do here because we live in the country and in the snow belt. So traveling in the winter is very difficult and we live 45 minutes from the city. We really don't have much to do here, but we make do with what we do have.

 

I agree that's its totally impossible for a child not to learn anything unless they are comatose. Children learn all of the time and quite a bit they learn on their own. There has been many things my daughters have learned on their own without me even having to teach them.

 

Do I feel that if someone waits until the age of 13 to start reading is wrong? Well its crossing the line. As long as they are complying with their state's law it is up to the parent to educate their children how they wish.

 

Because if we start reporting people then we might as well start reporting everyone else here. We might as well start reporting children who are being educationally neglected in the public and private schools as well while we're at it. Because that happens much more so then in a homeschooling enviroment. So the next time your neighbor's kid that goes to the public school can't read what your 5yr old can read. Then turn the school in while your at it. Because they are just as responsible for that child. Heck, why not turn the parent in for even sending them to that school to begin with? Or not being involved enough in their education?

 

I mean I know the school system really failed my brothers. They are 21 and 24 respectively now, and my 8yr old can read better than they can!!! So I guess I should have turned their schools in because of what they did , or what I should say, did not do.

 

We all have our own definition , our own priorties with our own children.

If that is what they feel they need to do with their own kids so be it. They will have to answer for it in the end.

 

Like Jesus has said " Judge not, lest ye be judged."

Its up to God to judge. Not human beings.

 

With all that said , it really makes me nervous to see that people on this board would turn others in for not doing what THEY feel is an appropriate education. Its like a child's tamtrum," If you don't do things the way I feel you should be doing them, then I'll turn you in."

 

As long as they are following their state law, and children aren't being withheld food, shelter, and aren't being physically abused, then we have no right to be telling them how to homeschool their children. Otherwise we all need to start bossing each other around about how we feel you should be homeschooling your children.

 

Because you all know how you homeschool your children may not be the right way for me, and the way I homeschool my children may not be the right way for you.

[MegP]

 

As long as they are following their state law, and children aren't being withheld food, shelter, and aren't being physically abused, then we have no right to be telling them how to homeschool their children. Otherwise we all need to start bossing each other around about how we feel you should be homeschooling your children.

 

Because you all know how you homeschool your children may not be the right way for me, and the way I homeschool my children may not be the right way for you.

 

 

In some states, however, a homeschooled child being significantly behind is violating state law.

[Swirl]

Could someone please give me a link to the original thread? Pretty please.

[MegP]

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=328906

[Lang Syne Boardie]

uh oh

[Swirl]

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=328906

 

Thanks! I always seem to log on this forum after the fact, and then I have to spend forever digging around to figure out what's going on. :)

[kiana]

Thanks! I always seem to log on this forum after the fact, and then I have to spend forever digging around to figure out what's going on. :)

 

It was a couple weeks ago already :P

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

So, the other thread about reporting a family for educational neglect has me wondering, exactly what do you consider to be a bare minimum for a family to do be doing in order to avoid being thought of as neglectful? (I have a feeling that by some people's definitions, I would be considered woefully uneducated.)

 

I think there are two questions here. One is what do I consider the minimal level of education that homeschoolers should be providing their children. The other is at what point do you consider an education incomplete enough to be neglectful and worthy of reporting to the CPS.

 

My answers to those would be radically different. I will say that I would be reluctant to report a family to CPS whose children were otherwise safe, happy, healthy, and provided for adequately. I am unconvinced that I could ever know enough about what really happens in another family's homeschool to appropriately judge.

[MegP]

Reporting to CPS is radically different than reporting to the Department of Ed or your local district. To whom you report depends on the state you live in.

[ThreeBlessings]

I have a hard time answering this question. There is a large gap in what *I* consider providing for an adequate education and what I feel would constitute neglect. For me to ever consider reporting another family I feel it would have to be pretty severe and I would feel seriously worried and disturbed by the situation of the child. In other words I would know it if I saw it. Anything less than that? Not my business.

[jewellsmommy]

I could not ever see myself reporting someone for educational neglect. There are too many variables. That would have to be one of those judgement calls made on an extreme case by case basis.

 

Now what I consider to be the minimum in education is a different question. My minimum applies to me and to my family. I would not impose it upon someone else. There are also 2 things to consider here, though.

 

1. The minimum that I will do, as educator, in instruction. The minimum of opportunities I will present for spontaneous/discovery learning. The minimum number of times I will initiate structured learning activities. These are things I do.

 

I can control the above. These ar my efforts. However, the above activities would produce 2 different results in the 2 children I have due to ds's problems. This brings me to number 2.

 

2. The minimum effort level I will accept from each child. One activity may challenge one child and be a breeze for another. Even if both succeed at this activity, I did not force child b to 'step up to the plate' and meet a challenge. I will teach both children how to push to their max and challenge themselves. There is also a minimum demonstration of competency. Both children will leave my house able to function in the adult world. If it takes me twice as long and is twice as hard to get ds to that point, then so be it. If it takes special therapy and special curricula, then so be it, it is my job to figure this out. These are the minimum outcomes that I expect from each child based on 12 yrs of doing the things I listed in number 1.

[Joyofsixreboot]

My bottom line~math at age appropriate levels at least through algebra and geometry. Good reading skills and the ability to write a 5 paragraph essay and/or research paper. A good understanding of history and science topics. Maybe not a "balance this chemical equation" kind of science but and understanding of big topics.

[jewellsmommy]

I also wanted to say that there are two things that I hate to hear homeschoolers say, especially in public. :tongue_smilie:

 

1. We only did xyz, but you know, that's more then they would be getting if they were public school.

 

2. Well, we don't do formal LA, but we read a lot and do madlibs. That's grammar right there. (said in a proud/bragging way about a 7th grader :001_huh:)

 

Now, before people flame me... :tongue_smilie: I have nothing against madlibs. They are a fun reinforcement. But if someone here had a child in public school who read and did madlibs as their LA, It would be all over this board! There is a huge double standard here. So many hsers are quick to jump all over the "this is why homeschool...the ps is full of idiots" bandwagon, but if we do it then it's cutting edge education :lol:.

 

Again, this is just me. No offense intended to anyone. We are on Christmas break so I am not even schooling while others are busy educating today.