Parenting Question

[Slipper]

My sister has been visiting with my parents (who live nearby) for the past few days. She has a 2 1/2 yr old daughter (adopted at birth) and another newly adopted daughter (2 months). They decided to adopt after she was unable to conceive for 12+ years. She is a nurse (he has a truck delivery route). They are both well educated, church-going, compassionate, hard-working people. My sister does have issues with anxiety and ocd-ish type behaviors.

 

They are both frustrated with the behaviors of their 2 1/2 yr old. She has had these behaviors since she could walk (so they are not related to the new baby, whom she loves). My niece bites, hits, pinches, punches, throws things, screams, etc. Interestingly, she ONLY does it when my sister is around.

 

She had asked me if I could help her watch my niece while she was here and of course, I agreed. The 'watching' turned out to be all day (she tried to keep her here all night, but my niece was very upset when my sis tried to leave at night). I want to help my sister and this post is actually a bit painful to write, but I'm struggling to figure out how to help her (and they have both asked for suggestions on things to try).

 

Both of my parents (divorced) have also experienced this issue - my niece is lovely (a typical two year old, but very polite and mannerly) until my sister walks through the door. What would cause that?

 

My sister told me that I was too nice to my kids and to please, at least yell at her kid when she mis-behaved. She said I needed to scream at her and frighten her into obeying. She suggested that I spank her, but I really don't believe in spanking (please no debates about spanking). She wanted to know where my time-out corner was and they were floored when I told her I didn't have one. (If my kids are that out of control, I tell them to sit on their bed for time-out). I am ashamed to admit that I did look my niece over for bruises after seeing how upset my sister became towards her when she mis-behaved. (And again, she was an angel until my sister stopped by). My Sister didn't spank her or anything like that, she was just very stern with her.

 

The other interesting thing I noticed was that when my husband came home from work, my niece lit up like a Christmas tree and went running towards him. (She had never really met him as he doesn't travel like I do). She hugged him and they played for a while together (he is very, very good with kids). Interestingly, she wasn't nearly as affectionate towards me and when she needed help in the bathroom, she went to him for help (I helped her, but she continued to go to him whenever she needed anything).

 

I'm assuming that my bil is the main caregiver, but I still don't understand why the bad behavior escalates when my sis is around. My sister broke down and cried last night she was so frustrated. Additionally, the baby they just adopted is having some health issues and will probably need surgery soon, so I know her stress is high.

 

Does anyone have any insight for the behaviors? I have heard of kids who behaved poorly when their parents were around, but had never seen it before.

[Lara in Colo]

Wow.

Don't know what to say just now.

Still processing.

But.... wow.

 

Lara

[Catherine]

Based on my experiences with an older child, and those of others, my first thought was RAD.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Many adopted children (even ones adopted as infants ) have RAD. A primary "symptom" of this is bad behavior that is centered on the mother - as in they will behave terribly for the mother and no one else. It is based on a disruption to the natural mother-child bond that these children should have had. Do not rush to judgment against your sister.

[LittleIzumi]

Many adopted children (even ones adopted as infants ) have RAD. A primary "symptom" of this is bad behavior that is centered on the mother - as in they will behave terribly for the mother and no one else. It is based on a disruption to the natural mother-child bond that these children should have had. Do not rush to judgment against your sister.

 

:iagree::iagree:

[Caribbean Queen]

I don't know whats up with your sister and her daughter.

The only times I have seen kids act terribly with their mothers and not other times it was because:

A. Their mothers were very permissive. The kids knew they couldn't get away with so much around other people.

B Their mothers were neglectful and abusive. The moms didn't set boundaries or rules. The moms didn't supervise the children at all. When the children got on their mother's nerves enough they would hit and scream at the children. When the children were around adults who treated them nicely, and supervised them, they were fine.

[Caribbean Queen]

Many adopted children (even ones adopted as infants ) have RAD. A primary "symptom" of this is bad behavior that is centered on the mother - as in they will behave terribly for the mother and no one else. It is based on a disruption to the natural mother-child bond that these children should have had. Do not rush to judgment against your sister.

 

But she was adopted at birth.

[simka2]

This doesn't necessarily sound like RAD to me, but I am not an expert.

 

That said, it sounds like your sister could benefit from some additional parenting classes as well as coping behaviors within herself. If she has pre-existing anxiety and OCD behaviors I can image this is very difficult for her. She is going to have to learn to soothe herself separate from her dd's behavior.

[Slipper]

Thanks for the thoughts so far. I'm not trying to judge my sister. (And I do not consider myself to be a perfect parent by any stretch). I'm very worried about her due to some heart problems she has. She fainted one day last week and my niece woke my bil up from his nap to 'go help mommy'.

 

She seems stressed beyond belief.

 

I'm grateful for any suggestions (and again, they have asked me for suggestions).

[Lawana]

Has she read about child development? Does she seem to have a clear idea about what constitutes normal behavior for infants and children of various ages? That might be a first step. I can imagine it would be stressful as a parent when an 18mo (give or take) starts opposing the parent's will, if she/he took it personally.

[Liza Lee]

Many adopted children (even ones adopted as infants ) have RAD. A primary "symptom" of this is bad behavior that is centered on the mother - as in they will behave terribly for the mother and no one else. It is based on a disruption to the natural mother-child bond that these children should have had. Do not rush to judgment against your sister.

 

:iagree:

 

My first thought was that your sister is abusive. But when you described the way that your niece acted overly attached to your husband, I then began to suspect RAD. Children with that will act the best for the "new" person and treat the person they know the best very badly. Parenting a child with this disorder is very, very difficult. IMO, your sister and her daughter need to be in therapy with someone who is an expert on attachment disorders.

[LittleIzumi]

But she was adopted at birth.

 

RAD can occur in infants adopted at birth as well. They bond for 9 months with the mother, through hormones and smells and the sound of her voice through the womb and so forth, and suddenly that mother/smell/voice is GONE. Forever.

[Caribbean Queen]

RAD can occur in infants adopted at birth as well. They bond for 9 months with the mother, through hormones and smells and the sound of her voice through the womb and so forth, and suddenly that mother/smell/voice is GONE. Forever.

 

This is said with a non snarky tone:

I find this hard to believe. I have never heard this and it doesn't 'ring true' to me. Hmm, it's something to google tonight.

[Cindyg]

This is said with a non snarky tone:

I find this hard to believe. I have never heard this and it doesn't 'ring true' to me. Hmm, it's something to google tonight.

 

Also in my non-snarky voice: I'd like to hear more about this. I have a nephew, adopted at birth, who has all sorts of RAD like issues. I've often wondered if this was possible. His adopted mom (my SIL) was in the room when he was born.

[LittleIzumi]

This is said with a non snarky tone:

I find this hard to believe. I have never heard this and it doesn't 'ring true' to me. Hmm, it's something to google tonight.

 

Absolutely research it yourself, but I have heard it mentioned in my recent research on adoption/RAD. For instance:

 

"One major group of children who are traumatized are those who become available for adoption. Every baby who becomes available for adoption has experienced some trauma. The most common trauma they can experience is the loss of their relationship to their birth mother. Over the past ten to twenty years, there has been growing evidence that a strong or significant bond exists at birth between the infant and his birth mother which develops during the nine-month period the child was inside his mother. In my experience, besides food and air, nothing is more important to a baby’s survival than his mother’s love. When the love from his relationship is lost, regardless of the reason, the bond is broken and the baby is adversely affected. Many babies, who are adopted at birth or shortly thereafter, bond to the adoptive parent or mother without any problems. Others do not."

http://www.reactiveattachmentdisordertreatment.com/ssi/article1.html

 

 

"In his article for Chosen Child Magazine, Walt Buenning states, "Based on my clinical experience, my estimation is that it occurs in 10-30% of infants adopted at birth"

http://www.attach-china.org/faq.html

[LittleIzumi]

I just realized those are both by the same person! Here's a different discussion:

 

"Until recently, many adoptive parents assumed that only post-institutionalized children adopted as toddlers and older were at risk of developing Reactive Attachment Disorder and that babies under age one would quickly and completely overcome early emotional deprivation once they were in a loving family. Indeed, this may be a factor in choosing only to adopt an infant. But many adoptive parents are discovering that children who seemed to have attached well as infants begin to display symptoms of attachment problems as toddlers, preschoolers, or in elementary school. As they grow older, new inappropriate behaviors, typically more extreme or excessive than developmentally normal, may indicate emerging unresolved attachment issues. "

 

http://www.rainbowkids.com/ArticleDetails.aspx?id=513

[NotSoObvious]

So RAD or not, your sister is obviously struggling. I feel for her because I went through a period of parenting my adopted twins that I was not proud of. I yelled a lot and was constantly frustrated, even though I have very (naturally) sweet kids. I was not the kind of parent I thought I'd be, it did not come naturally like I thought it would, and the learning curve was really, really big.

 

I just wanted to add that I've seen kids (I taught kinder and first grade for 6 years, so I watched lots of kids with their parents) who behave this way not because their parents are too permissive or too strict, but because they are unpredictable. If your sister is struggling and is frustrated, perhaps she has a hard time setting clear, reasonable boundaries, and then following through with consequences. It could even be as simple as not having a consistent routine at home.

 

Even without RAD, this child could simply have a demanding, stubborn personality, all the more needing a consistent, firm, and calm parent. Even young children can sense when the adult is not trustworthy (in this sense, meaning unpredictable).

 

Your sister is still a new parent, so try to be understanding. Unless there is some major cause for concern, I'd probably just try to be loving and supportive. If you have the kind of relationship where she's be open to your advice, give it. I find it's sometimes easier to recommend books rather than to dole out advice. "Parenting From the Inside Out" is wonderful because it focuses on me as the parent, and identifying MY issues as to why I react the way I do, or need the things I do. It's great for self-reflection.

 

Also, it may just come down to a difference in parenting styles. She may be an authoritarian, use time-outs, spank, etc. and you might not agree with them, but in the end, it is her choice. With a new baby coming, the next few years might not be her easiest ones. Being helpful and compassionate may be all that you can do.

 

So sorry you are broken up about it. It's hard to watch a family member struggle. Hang in there.

[misidawnrn]

It sounds like your sister doesn't have a good overall relationship with the little girl. Discipline isn't only when you get mad enough to be MAD, it is gentle reminders about having good behavior right at the start of the bad behaviors. (I don't have to tell you this, it sounds like you have it going on:)). It reminds me of my 2yo's birthmom and her son. He is just turned 4 and is very naughty for his mom and gmom. I watched him over 4th of July and he was an angel. (Well, after he had to stand on the wall for throwing sand in 2yo's eyes). When his mom showed up, he turned into Sir Naughty again. He refused to put his shoes on and threw down on the floor into a tantrum. I promptly picked him up and stood him on the wall and reminded him gently that he needs to listen to his mommy. After a minute his mom asked him if he was ready to get his shoes on and he said "NO! I am standing on the wall!!!" He craves the structure of being guided, something which his mom doesn't do...at all..unless mom is very mad.

 

Yesterday, they came to my sister's for TG and he was messing with the buttons on the washer and dryer and his mom told him to stop. He threw a fit and was basically cussing her out. My sister promptly took him by the shoulders and stooped down to his level and said "We don't talk to our mommy like that at Aunt Jacque's house. You say I'm sorry to your mommy." and he did and went out to play. He isn't a bad kid. He just gets no structure.

 

Can you have a heart to heart with your sister and give her pointers on constant guiding vs. on the fly madness? It might just make her relationship with her daughter better and smoother. You are a good auntie for worrying about it.

[deacongirl]

Absolutely research it yourself, but I have heard it mentioned in my recent research on adoption/RAD. For instance:

 

"One major group of children who are traumatized are those who become available for adoption. Every baby who becomes available for adoption has experienced some trauma. The most common trauma they can experience is the loss of their relationship to their birth mother. Over the past ten to twenty years, there has been growing evidence that a strong or significant bond exists at birth between the infant and his birth mother which develops during the nine-month period the child was inside his mother. In my experience, besides food and air, nothing is more important to a baby’s survival than his mother’s love. When the love from his relationship is lost, regardless of the reason, the bond is broken and the baby is adversely affected. Many babies, who are adopted at birth or shortly thereafter, bond to the adoptive parent or mother without any problems. Others do not."

http://www.reactiveattachmentdisordertreatment.com/ssi/article1.html

 

 

"In his article for Chosen Child Magazine, Walt Buenning states, "Based on my clinical experience, my estimation is that it occurs in 10-30% of infants adopted at birth"

http://www.attach-china.org/faq.html

 

As an AP who has read extensively about attachment in adoption, I agree. And FTR--bio kids can have RAD as well. I know of a bio kid who was parented from birth following Babywise (left to cry in his bed, not fed when hungry)--he was diagnosed with RAD by a professional.

[Slipper]

Thanks, I will definitely look into RAD. My niece's behavior doesn't bother me (even when it turns bad). My sister and bil have over-reacted at times (in my opinion) to their daughter's behavior. One time they insisted that their daughter had hurt mine, but my daughter couldn't recall the incident (even though it had happened less than ten minutes previously). It was awkward because other guests for dinner were commenting positively on my kids around the same time that hers would throw a shoe or something. It would have been comical if she hadn't been so upset.

 

I don't think my sister has really found a parenting style. I think she's still slightly confused at all the work that goes into raising a child. Our relationship is good and I think she would listen to suggestions as long as I phrased it very carefully. I do have time-outs for my kids, by the way, but we don't have a specific place other than their bed to sit. I don't disapprove of her discipline methods other than the yelling. I can be strict and I may yell, but I try to be in absolute control of the situation in regards to calmness (if calmly yelling makes sense?).

 

I can tell that my sister feels like a failure and she's had such a hard life at times that she deserves to feel good about herself. Thanks again to everyone who is commenting. I appreciate your kindness towards the situation.

[Murmer]

Give your sister some credit please...while she may be the root of the problem she may not. I had a young dd who was violent....very violent, extremely violent. It started very young and there was very little I could do about it. It turns out that said child has seizures and the seizures were in her temporal lobe and caused her brain to be in a constant fight or flight mode...for her it was fight. Since anti-seizure meds she has had 1 semi violent melt down versus 1 month earlier where we were being violently attacked daily. Honestly it had nothing to do with me but just parenting this child was exhausting and disheartening. She did not do discipline...at all of any kind no matter what. She could not learn cause and effect. I felt like I was constantly being judged as a bad parent, in addition all I heard was to be more consistent and to force time out which never worked until her medical needs where taken care of. In addition because she is an adopted child, at birth, I am always looking over my shoulder for RAD. I know it can happen and my dd was exhibiting similar symptoms, thankfully she is able to attach when her brain isn't stopping. So take the time to help your sister and encourage her to find help somewhere.

[Ellie]

But she was adopted at birth.

A dear friend has a ds who was adopted at birth. This child is the picture of RAD. Life with him has been h*ll.

[Farrar]

It does seem like, RAD or not, your sister has had trouble bonding with her daughter. So... I think that process goes both ways. She seems to have unrealistic expectations of the behavior of a 2 yo and some of that, I think, can come from not feeling in tune with what's right. I think I would just encourage her to see that you can be a strict parent but still understand what's developmentally appropriate in terms of actions and discipline. "Strict" with a 2 yo looks really different than "strict" with a 10 yo.

[happyhomemaker25]

Even if it's not RAD there could be Attachment Issues. It's hard adopting a child. There is this fairy tale perception that you and the child live happily ever after. I love my adopted kids, one we brought home from the hospital at birth. What surprised me is I did not know about the bond and love you feel when you have a biological child. DH and I sometimes say we wish we'd have had bio first just because we now understand what it's supposed to feel like.

That sounds bad, but I don't know how else to say it. I love all my kids and would do anything for them. It's just... different for lack of a better word. So much so that after my bio was born I went out of my way to try to firm up attachments with my other children. I felt guilty.

I remember feeling very overwhelmed in the beginning of my parenting journey. I always had this picture of what kind of a mother I'd be. (A great one by the way :tongue_smilie:) but reality was so different. I yelled way to much and was way to selfish with my time. I missed out on so much in the beginning. When my youngest son (adopted) was born I cried because I realized that I'd spent to much time striving for perfection with my other children and not enough time working on relationships.

I don't know if this makes any sense, but I hope it's given you some insight into what your sister may be going through.

 

Oh yeah, and as a mother of a RAD child I've done some research and found that it can start in the womb. If the mother detaches herself from the child she is carrying or even if she suffers some sort of trauma while the baby is in utero there can be lasting attachment issues. Drugs and alcohol can also cause attachment issues. Hostility is centered around the mother figure and it is very, very easy as the mother figure to begin to resent this child who constantly hurts you. There is also manipulation and triangulation where the child puts on this amazing front in front of others. People think my daughter is the nicest, most polite, obedient child on the face of the earth. In reality land if my husband treated me the way my daughter does these same people would tell me to get out and not look back. What I'm saying is don't always believe what you see around a child with attachment issues.

[deacongirl]

Attachment is a continuum. Even if it isn't RAD, it is still a process that must be given attention, even for kids who aren't adopted. (See the book Hold On To Your Kids). You said your sister seems confused about which parenting approach to take. I wonder if she is surrounded by a lot of the Gary Ezzo/Babywise/punitive discipline/authoritarian/do it this way or you aren't a good Christian kind of parenting philosophy. If so, that approach is completely contrary to developing a strong attachment. And from my experience, the Hold On to Your Kids author has it right--the desire to behave and to please the parents (or mother in this case) springs from a strong attachment and unconditional positive regard.

 

I might not approach saying that I thought the kid had RAD, but that working on attachment may very well improve the behaviors.

 

"While a smaller percentage of adopted children will be diagnosed with RAD, others may exhibit milder versions of attachment disorders or insecure attachment. Some experts believe that the majority of attachment problems in children are caused by parental ignorance about child development rather than abuse. This has resulted in an estimated 1 in 3 people with avoidant, ambivalent or resistant attachment. (11) Whatever the causes, adoptive families need the appropriate information, training and support in raising children with attachment difficulties."

 

I also think the book Transforming the Difficult Child could be helpful.

[HS Mom in NC]

RAD can even happen to children adopted at birth or children in outstanding foster families. See an attachment therapist with experience with adoptees. Anyone else is unqualified. Do not seek out parenting advice from people with no qualifications in this area- you can make if far worse. Find someone competent to diagnose it or rule it out-this does not mean your local ped. or typical shrink or church counselor. This requires a specialist in the field.