MBM Posted November 26, 2011 Share Posted November 26, 2011 Guidance counselors merely suggest options; they don't dictate. IMO, students would be foolish not to consider their advice. Of course, they don't have to take it -- they can make their own decisions -- but a guidance counselor can offer good advice that might not have been considered. I see it as a means of gathering more information to help make an informed decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ester Maria Posted November 26, 2011 Share Posted November 26, 2011 If I had not started to research already , I would not even know that there are subject SATs and that the schools want to see them and that we should take them as soon as we finish a course [...] I would have been utterly unprepared for the hoops one has to jump through that have nothing to do with academic content (that's the easy part). I was thinking about this thread again and I think that I am closer to articulating what rubs me the wrong way about this. (By the way, I hope you are not taking this disagreement personally in any way - I hope you know that you are one of my favorite members on the boards. :)) The problem is that I do not see the student in this. You talk about your blame, your duty, your lack of preparation - but in my mind, it is the student who should know the ins and the outs of the system they are within, first and foremost. IOW, if otherwise you would not request your children to take SAT2s and APs as a kind of exit exams spread out throughout the years - I think it is they who should come to you (rather than the other way round) and 'nag' you about registering them for this and that (if they cannot register alone), paying fees for this and that, because they know they need it for university acceptance. Now, if they start informing themselves of these things too late, it may certainly happen that they lose a year along the way (however, in my view, that is not nearly the worst thing that can happen, there are plenty of ways to invest time during that year and for many it can be just the gap year they need) - but does not the fact itself that they started informing themselves late say something about their maturity and readiness? So, a very college-focused child will probably learn the ins and the outs early on in high school, but some will learn later - I see nothing wrong with that, in and of itself. I tend to think, to each his own, in his time. I am not at all worried about "getting into college" - I am considering an optimization problem: which school is the best fit for my student's ability and personality and chosen major(s). But I still do not see why would the optimization problem not be the student's responsibility as well. I think it is the student who should sit the parent down, not the other way round, and ask questions, ask help, if parents have professional expertise with that; that it is they who should be comparing syllabi, reading acceptance criteria, googling who are the lecturers and what they are working on, considering research opportunities and mobility opportunities, and so forth, ultimately making the choice based on all they manage to inform themselves about while consulting with parents about the finances, and then dealing with further application and post-application process. This is not to discourage anyone from researching things indepedently, like Violet explained before. I am just really surprised with the importance many people in this thread attribute to other people in the process, rather than the student. I am still trying to wrap my mind about that and about whether I do have some additional responsibilities here I had not considered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ester Maria Posted November 26, 2011 Share Posted November 26, 2011 You must mean about the idea of a "guidance counselor" in general, and not Paula's particular situation, correct? I understand the idea you are talking about (I think), but I don't think it's what Paula is talking about, really. Thanks for putting yourself in her (and my) shoes and understanding. You know, EM, if you started a separate thread about your ideal, I'd be interested to read more about what you are talking about. Okay, okay, hint taken. You are right, I really meant all these things quite generally, not specifically related to Paula's situation. Sorry Paula for having disrupted the flow of your thread. :001_smile: It was an interesting conversation, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted November 26, 2011 Author Share Posted November 26, 2011 Okay, okay, hint taken. You are right, I really meant all these things quite generally, not specifically related to Paula's situation. Sorry Paula for having disrupted the flow of your thread. :001_smile: It was an interesting conversation, though. Oh no, you haven't disrupted. I prefer to think of these threads as conversation, and apt to meander through a topic. I appreciate everyone's input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie in MN Posted November 26, 2011 Share Posted November 26, 2011 (edited) I wasn't really paying attention to this thread, since I do not think of myself as a guidance counselor. But it's grown so much that I had to take a read thru. I hate to read something like this: I'll be honest, this is the part that scares me most about homeschooling high school. The thing is that many folks on this thread have shared that their high school and college guidance counselors were no good. You, yourself, had that experience. So did I. DH and I were both let down by our HS counselors as well as our parents. I totally agree. Same experience. I met my guidance counselor once, to transfer a class. They never brought up college, my parents were no help. So why would doing it as a homeschooler be scary? You will have no trouble equaling most of our guidance counseling experiences, and the potential to do much better. As for when to start, I am NOT in the camp of panicking and spending 4+ years planning every detail, like some have said: I have to disagree with you. It's too late to start planning at 17/18. You need to start planting those seeds now, and working with your child now. I have a 15-almost-16-year-old and have had two before that. Pushing hard at this age for adult goals could help to motivate, especially if the student is on board, but it could be time wasted when plans change, or could potentially even backfire. I also know young adults who had potential but were pushed too hard before they knew what they wanted to do. Wouldn't it just take a short visit to a local public school or online search in order to find out these things and lay them on the table when you do your planning? Students have to take the PSAT in 11th grade precisely (not in 10th, and not in 12th) to be eligible for National merit scholar. We need to plan for enough SAT2's to satisfy the most picky schools (which demand FIVE) and spread them out over the years. The student must have taken every necessary standardized test by September Senior year. APs are offered only on fixed dates in May. (So, most students have 10th and 11th grade to do the exams. Exams from 12th grade are too late to be a factor in the admission decision.) Some SAT2s are offered only in November. (DD did not get in this year to take the exam she wanted because it was full; so she has exactly ONE more shot next year November for her to take it.) How can I plan my student's high school years, their courses of study, the scheduling of their standardized tests, if I do not start thinking about university in 9th grade??? This is where I think realistically you can spend student time to the max: I also want to show him that his study habits over the next four may could make the difference between his ideal college and the affordable one. He is currently unmotivated by grades. I think right now I just want him to see how big the doors of opportunity can be if he applies himself. It sounds like this is your real concern -- not how to match up with a high school guidance counselor, but how to be the guidance counselor that isn't out there, how to be something new: I do feel sometimes I've managed a "settle for" existence because I had no one showing me how to achieve my goals. I suppose that is the bottom line, I want ds to have an opportunity to achieve what he wants out of life. Again, I'm really not seeing all these amazing guidance counselors. Maybe a few. I haven't met many. And granted I am not an ivy leager, but the couple I have known were not coming from ivy league central on the East Coast, and didn't have these things: One of the issues is that our home schooled kids will be in competition for scholarships and spots at universities with kids who have professional guidance counselors working at their schools. Good colleges will vary, but often they are looking for the student who stands out and doesn't just pass tests well. College counselors we've talked to all seem to think testing doesn't really reflect how well a student will do in college, it's just the only standardized tool they have. What I'd try to do if I wanted to recreate the role of a guidance counselor in the ideal way is to maybe make that reference list of tests and such, and then spend the majority of my time finding ways that my student naturally might stand out from the crowd. When my oldest was researching college (which he did on his own, even though he was public schooled), he would search online for the average ACT/SAT scores, and he would read online comparisons like College Navigator & US News rankings. The early college visits we did didn't really tell him much. I'd say the best thing to motivate my kids has been to talk with adults who have exciting jobs. And you'd be surprised how willing folks all around you are to talk about those jobs and how they got there. Those conversations took my kids further than my reminders or their guidance counselors' warnings about the future. Oh, and those "general classes" you mentioned are usually at a Liberal Arts university, which by definition exposes their graduates to a range of specialties, not just one. Julie Edited November 26, 2011 by Julie in MN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapiti Posted November 26, 2011 Share Posted November 26, 2011 I don't know if this will help anyone, but it is possible to hire a college admissions consultant to assist with the college search and/or with the application itself. School guidance counselors are so overburdened or not particularly helpful that there is a surprising market for these consultants. My understanding is that in some cases, particularly for those planning to apply to selective schools, it can be helpful to meet with such a person earlier in high school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted November 26, 2011 Author Share Posted November 26, 2011 So why would doing it as a homeschooler be scary? You will have no trouble equaling most of our guidance counseling experiences, and the potential to do much better. I have no illusions about the public school guidance counselor. Perhaps it's a matter of incorrect semantics, but I'm not looking to equate to the public school As for when to start, I am NOT in the camp of panicking and spending 4+ years planning every detail, like some have said: Panicking and planning are two different things. ;) It sounds like this is your real concern -- not how to match up with a high school guidance counselor, but how to be the guidance counselor that isn't out there, how to be something new: Again it may be a matter of semantics, but I'm not trying to recreate the public school experience. The early college visits we did didn't really tell him much. I'd say the best thing to motivate my kids has been to talk with adults who have exciting jobs. And you'd be surprised how willing folks all around you are to talk about those jobs and how they got there. Those conversations took my kids further than my reminders or their guidance counselors' warnings about the future. I know about three people that are working/studying in the fields my ds is currently interested. Also on my "agenda" (in quotes because it's not really an agenda, but simply a plan) is to find more experts, but that also will require looking outside my current community. Oh, and those "general classes" you mentioned are usually at a Liberal Arts university, which by definition exposes their graduates to a range of specialties, not just one. The college I referred was our local state university. They have a slew of general classes before moving to the majority of classes in your major, they are not considered heavily Liberal Arts. Julie My thoughts in green. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
at the beach Posted November 26, 2011 Share Posted November 26, 2011 A few more thoughts (hopefully not too off-topic): I don't think there's just one perfect college for a child. There are often numerous valid options. I like the author of Debt-Free U's perspective on this. How far do we go as guidance counselors/parents? Have any of you read The Overachievers? There are detriments to having concerns about college admission loom too large in children's minds. I would venture to say that more often than not, it's the parent going overboard (whether the kid is homeschooled or not) when it comes to this sort of stuff, not the school guidance counselor, who is likely, as a previous poster said, showing the kid options as to what might be a good fit and letting the child take it from there. Paula said she would like her son to see that there is a world of opportunity out there if he applies himself. So, how do we motivate kids to apply themselves? Isn't that the magic question? I don't think we really can. Well, maybe we can by helping them find things to spend time on that they love, maybe that helps motivate--but what they love isn't always necessarily academic in nature, either. Kids often seem perfectly unimpressed by what parents think are great opportunities. And if a child does not apply themselves now, it's really not the end of the world. Most things can be remedied when one is ready. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted November 26, 2011 Share Posted November 26, 2011 (edited) Okay, okay, hint taken. You are right, I really meant all these things quite generally, not specifically related to Paula's situation. Oh no!!! I wasn't hinting that you *shouldn't* talk about it here - I was just thinking, because you seemed to have far more thoughts about it, that it would be *interesting* to read an entirely new thread about it. Sorry that it came across like I was hinting for you to take a hike! :D I really did not mean that - I have a lot of respect for the way you put your thoughts out here on the boards - I hope you know that. I find your thoughts on this topic interesting, and you are getting me to consider some things I hadn't considered before. In fact, I am enjoying hearing all the different perspectives here, too. (that sounds so cliche here on the boards, but it's true for me of this particular thread) Julie said this, too, which is encouraging for me: "So why would doing it as a homeschooler be scary? You will have no trouble equaling most of our guidance counseling experiences, and the potential to do much better." Sometimes I just need to hear things like that, to get rid of panic and begin doing practical things. ETA: I had said "thanks for putting yourself in her (and my) shoes and understanding," because you had actually said that you did understand. I wasn't pleading with you to try and understand - I already knew you did. And I appreciated that. Edited November 26, 2011 by Colleen in NS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brigid in NC Posted November 26, 2011 Share Posted November 26, 2011 (edited) See, these are the things that give me palpitations because I have no personal experience with all of this. I did go to university but it was 30 years ago and I did not do any of these tests etc. Some of that may be because I was applying from overseas and did not have access to all of them. I want my children to have OPTIONS. I agree with this. Concern about "options" is why I started planning in 9th for the "end line." My ds had no idea where he wanted to go to college, so I wanted to make sure that my school planning did not find him deficient in the college admissions hoops he was going to have to (or might have to) jump through later. I really think that it is important to plan early, if we want to make sure there are no doors closed because of our lack of awareness of college admissions expectations. That doesn't mean in 9th grade that we need to know where our students want to attend college--or what major they will pursue--but there are some schools that have requirements for all students and for homeschoolers, if students are to be competitive for admission. For example, Princeton wants to see four years of the same foreign language (from everybody) and Georgia Tech wants three SATII tests (from homeschoolers). I'm sure some students get around these, but that's what they say they want. So looking at the possible schools that our students might be interested in will help take some of the stress out of the high school years. If you have the kind of student who might be interested in Princeton, you don't want to begin planning in 10th or 11th grade. If you have the kind of student who might be interested in Ga Tech, you want to help them plan their testing schedule in high school so that everything doesn't hit all at once, or so that you can help them understand what the junior year will look like when testing can get pretty ugly. I actually think doing some of the "guidance counselor" leg work early eases the the stress on us. It's the unknown that can be so stressful IMHO. Best, ~Brigid Edited November 26, 2011 by Brigid in NC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted November 26, 2011 Share Posted November 26, 2011 (edited) ...I'm looking for hints on the subtleties. I'd like to show him some options and what they require as part of his prep for high school. How do I know what is a "good" school? How do I know if a school is respected for the particular department ds desires? Just popping this down here to remind myself of what I was interested in, in case anyone else has input. Oh, and Paula, your thread prompted me to dig out my Nov. 22, 2010 issue of MacLean's magazine (Canadian) - it has the 20th annual "University Rankings - How Does Your School Stack Up?" I found it last year in a thrift store, and I kept it. In fact, I wonder if the 2011 rankings issue came out this week...I should go look in the stores. It's full of good statistical info. on Canadian universities. And then funnily, this afternoon, ds picked it up from the coffee table and thumbed through it, then asked if he could look up some of the schools online to check out their programs and admissions requirements. Thunk went Colleen. lol Edited November 27, 2011 by Colleen in NS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brigid in NC Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 But I still do not see why would the optimization problem not be the student's responsibility as well. I think it is the student who should sit the parent down, not the other way round, and ask questions, ask help, if parents have professional expertise with that; that it is they who should be comparing syllabi, reading acceptance criteria, googling who are the lecturers and what they are working on, considering research opportunities and mobility opportunities, and so forth, ultimately making the choice based on all they manage to inform themselves about while consulting with parents about the finances, and then dealing with further application and post-application process. This is not to discourage anyone from researching things indepedently, like Violet explained before. I am just really surprised with the importance many people in this thread attribute to other people in the process, rather than the student. I am still trying to wrap my mind about that and about whether I do have some additional responsibilities here I had not considered. Boy, how many times did I wish that my ds would step up and own this. I think for some kids it is just not going to happen soon enough. My older ds had so much going on academically and with extra-curriculars, I wanted him to focus on those. He had NO idea where he wanted to go to college in 9th, 10th, or even 11th, and I really did not want him spending time thrashing around (which is what it would have looked like :)). I know some students who have done just what you described, but I know far more who are clueless in the early high school years. I think for many students, considering college options is utterly overwhelming. They (like us) have no idea where to begin. Just our experience. Best, ~Brigid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie in MN Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 (edited) The college I referred was our local state university. They have a slew of general classes before moving to the majority of classes in your major, they are not considered heavily Liberal Arts. A "University" is a group of colleges. So my alma matter, the University of Minnesota, has several "colleges" and "schools" under its umbrella, such as: College of Liberal Arts College of Pharmacy College of Education Law School School of Nursing etc So the "College of Liberal Arts" is one part of the University of Minnesota, and you wouldn't say it was "heavily" liberal arts -- it simply is a Liberal Arts college. They offer a huge number of degree options, but all of them will require a liberal arts base -- meaning I had to take a few classes each in the sciences, humanities, maths, etc. However, if I had been at the same University but received my degree from one of the other colleges, they likely would have only required courses within their own specialty. Some of them might sound similar but are likely more specialized with fewer choices, such as requiring agricultural economics or medical ethics. The reasoning behind it is different. I think the philosophy of a Liberal Arts college comes out of the idea of a "classical" education. Julie Edited November 27, 2011 by Julie in MN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 This has been an interesting thread to read. Now that I'm home from our Thanksgiving trip to my Grandmothers I have time to actually respond as well. ;) My background is from a top public high school with really good guidance counseling for my own high school experience, working at a lower than average high school now, and getting one student into his top choice (not so selective) college as well as working with middle son. It's not a whole lot, but take it for what it's worth. ;) The VAST majority of students do not know anywhere near enough to prepare themselves for nor select a "good" college for themselves. Guidance is a must IMO. Many parents also know very little, but can know more than the students themselves especially if they went to college and have been through the experience of applications, etc. There's NO WAY I would ever recommend a student preparing themselves for a very critical decision in their lives. However, for my own boys, I've brought them alongside - teaching them what I'm looking for (and why) - and then letting them make the final decision - more or less. I don't let them get into more debt than I am comfortable with. I also am 100% responsible for deciding their tests - what, when, and where. They simply don't know what to take or when, etc. Some of these tests are not common among their friends. They are way too busy with studying and extra-curriculars to do extensive research online. I certainly never had to do that part at my good high school and even at our below average high school guidance counselors still give testing recommendations (not up to my expectations, but they don't leave the student on their own). I ask my boys what they are interested in or "see" myself where their interests tend to lie. I check with those I can about possible good schools. They may e-mail contacts I find (or they find) to ask about recommendations, but they do it after I've told them it'd be a good idea. I proofread their e-mails to be certain they are understandable, tactful, and ask the pertinent questions before those e-mails get sent. I tell them to study for the SAT/ACT and any other tests. My oldest one chose not to. My middle son didn't need any reminders. I plan to not let my youngest opt not to (experience on my part). We both search for colleges, then I do more research on them. Those that pass "my" test the kids then research more. Either of us can offer suggestions or shoot down a school based upon what we find out. I want mine to find a good fit that will prepare them well and is affordable. That's our joint goal. Kids who are left to themselves tend to fall into trends. They may go where "Jimmy" is going because "Jimmy" likes it, they may pick based upon their favorite sports team, they may pick solely upon weather or distance from home (less or greater), they may pick the "easiest" school, they may pick a "fun" school, or they may pick based upon perceived prestige and not give any thought to the cost and debt. Very seldom do I see them doing research into their actual major to see if it is a decent one at their school without recommendation from someone to do so and someone showing them how. Even our guidance counselors suggest shadowing and such things. Parents who assist without research almost always choose based upon distance from home (closer being better), personal experience "local U" worked for me (or my friend) regardless of the time difference or major difference, money (cc/public is cheapest, and therefore, the way we go), or sometimes sports teams or alumni affinity (our family has always rooted for or gone there). My goal is to find the best choice for each of my boys. Originally hubby and I fell into the "alumni" category and assumed all three of ours would go there since we loved our experience. Now it appears each of us will go elsewhere, but they'll be going to the best places within our parameters for them. I prefer it that way. Had I not done a little bit of research, oldest wouldn't even have known about the college he's now thoroughly happily attending as HIS first choice. Middle son will likely have choices - he did to apply - but it's possible the financial necessity will make the choice for him. Had I not done research I'd have never discovered HIS top options at this point. If I'd left him in ps for high school he'd have never had the stats needed to get into some of them nor merit aid. I don't regret much. I do regret not having middle son take more AP tests and not having my oldest take the PSAT sophomore or junior years or making him study to boost his ACT score (it was already high, so not too much regret there), but that's all I can think of at this point. I'll be bucking my school's advice by having youngest take the AP Bio test next year... and perhaps English Language too. My high school prepared me well. Here I see many kids get fairly mismatched from both ps and homeschool. I prefer the former and have taken on the guidance counselor position willingly. It does take a fair bit of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez J Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Another factor that weighs on the college search is money. Do you stay in state and go to the inexpensive state flagship university? Not directed to you, JennW. But, many of you are talking from states that don't have highly selective state universities. We live in Texas. UT Austin, the flagship state school, is required by law to admit ALL top students from EVERY state high school. This law accounts for nearly 85% of its entering freshman class every year. It is HIGHLY selective. DD will have to jump through major hurdles to even get on their radar compared to all the elite private schooled students who "just" missed the mandatory cutoff level. I'm planning early! ... extracurriculars play a huge role as well. My husband and I sat down with our son at the end of 8th grade. We explained to him that if he had his heart set on attending one of the most selective schools, in order to increase his chances of acceptance, he would need to ramp up his extracurriculars. He made the decision not to increase or add to his extracurricular activites. I am concerned about this as well. DD wants to drop band this spring to focus on swimming. Does a competitive sport that is a year-round activity count as the extracurricular activity? Or, does it have to be something other than athletics? Also, imo, the SAT subject exams test a very specific body of knowledge. I believe it is my job as the guidance counselor to determine which SAT II's my children will take (they will not be taking the same tests) and to make sure that our homeschool class covers the material that will be tested on the SAT II exam. My son took his first SAT II last year as a freshman - something that I would not have known he should take if I had not planned/researched ahead of time. Thanks to you and Regentrude for discussing testing. I copied her post into a document. I had not thought about the difficulty of scheduling all those tests. We live in one of the top 4 metro areas in the country, so space will be at a premium. Gotta add that to my planning list. I am having DD go for a "distinguished" level diploma. It requires 4 AP tests. But, some universities expect the SAT subject tests instead. Lots of test planning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted November 27, 2011 Author Share Posted November 27, 2011 A "University" is a group of colleges. So my alma matter, the University of Minnesota, has several "colleges" and "schools" under its umbrella, such as: Julie Thanks. This particular university attained that status in the last decade, so I use the term interchangeably when, perhaps, I shouldn't. I I just looked and for one of the majors ds is interested in. Over the four year period they take less than a dozen courses (quick look, still waking up) in their actual major. Classes that I would consider beyond the basic of drawing 101. Another university with the same degree has 18 classes specifically in that major. Again, still waking up, so I didn't look to see how many are required. The one with 18 classes has many more focused classes, not just advanced. I guess that part that I see, as a non-college graduate, is that you take a dozen classes on whatever and suddenly you're qualified to do that job. I'm not wording this correctly, but I worked outside the home for many years. I was a great employee. I can see why some students may be having a hard time getting job, if they walk out with a bachelor's degree, having a dozen or so classes focused on their major and then feel entitled to a job. I had a few jobs where they told me up front, you'll have six months of on the job training. I've taken more than a dozen continuing ed type classes over the years, I certainly don't feel like an expert. Maybe that's part of the college experience game that I don't get. Maybe that's why the masters is becoming necessary. Also my son is interests now are in a field that changes daily, technology. Who knows what will be cutting edge in 4 years. How do I determine which college stays on top of cutting edge stuff? One very expensive film school I looked at uses one specific teaching software (style?). Anyway a quick search showed me that software/style is quickly going out of date. In four years that school will either have to adapt or the students will be unable to be hired. Obviously, I do expect my son to research some of this, but I want the background to support/debate/discuss research as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Not directed to you, JennW. But, many of you are talking from states that don't have highly selective state universities. We live in Texas. UT Austin, the flagship state school, is required by law to admit ALL top students from EVERY state high school. This law accounts for nearly 85% of its entering freshman class every year. It is HIGHLY selective. DD will have to jump through major hurdles to even get on their radar compared to all the elite private schooled students who "just" missed the mandatory cutoff level. I'm planning early! I am concerned about this as well. DD wants to drop band this spring to focus on swimming. Does a competitive sport that is a year-round activity count as the extracurricular activity? Or, does it have to be something other than athletics? Thanks to you and Regentrude for discussing testing. I copied her post into a document. I had not thought about the difficulty of scheduling all those tests. We live in one of the top 4 metro areas in the country, so space will be at a premium. Gotta add that to my planning list. I am having DD go for a "distinguished" level diploma. It requires 4 AP tests. But, some universities expect the SAT subject tests instead. Lots of test planning. While I am a firm advocate of preparing our children well for admission into competitive schools (our 15 yos wants to attend a very select school), worrying about extracurricular activities of a 7th grader is completely unnecessary. Schools don't care about anything prior to high school, so middle school activities are irrelevant. You also need to keep in mind that what they want from homeschoolers is different from those that attend school. W/homeschoolers they want to see that students have used their unique educational opportunity to develop their particular interests and aren't necessarily looking for a replica of school-attending individuals. For example, our ds has a passion for astrophysics. He is spending a lot of time working on a space station competition. He is also senior patrol leader for his BSA troop and has earned his Eagle. He rock climbs for fun. He attends our local astronomical society meetings when he doesn't have conflicts. But, he isn't overloaded w/ extra-curricular activities. But, he is well-balanced. I am not worried about him doing more. I think he will be very competitive when he applies. However when he was in 7th grade, we were very laid back and didn't worry about anything. He was still ready for his first SAT2 when he was a 9th grader and 2 APs in 10th. There is no way I would have felt pressure or allowed my child to experience any pressure as a 7th grader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowbeltmom Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 ... DD wants to drop band this spring to focus on swimming. Does a competitive sport that is a year-round activity count as the extracurricular activity? Or, does it have to be something other than athletics? A competitive sport is an extracurricular activity. My son was in the same boat as your daughter - he has elected to concentrate on his sport and has decided that if it hurts him at college admissions time, so be it. Has anyone read the book, What High Schools Don't Tell You (and Other Parents Don't Want you to Know)? I don't know how accurate this advice is, but the book provides year by year recommendations on what your child should be doing (beginning in 7th grade!) to increase the chances of being accepted to the "elite" schools. This is the book that my husband and I discussed with my oldest at the end of his 8th grade year. (Just as a side note, I had a very negative reaction to this book, but I wanted to make my son aware of what others were doing in regards to extracurriculars.) Like I said in my previous post, my son elected not to follow this advice. Some of my friends' kids (all traditionally schooled) did follow this advice and did gain admittance to the "elite" schools. However, these kids did burn the candle at both ends and functioned on less than 5 hours of sleep through much of their high school days. I am not criticizing these kids, it was just something my son has chosen not to do - but I felt that I needed to provide him with the information because he would not have known otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez J Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 (edited) While I am a firm advocate of preparing our children well for admission into competitive schools (our 15 yos wants to attend a very select school), worrying about extracurricular activities of a 7th grader is completely unnecessary. Schools don't care about anything prior to high school, so middle school activities are irrelevant. I'm not so sure. To do anything well requires years of dedication, which I think is the point of the extracurricular activities. Just to reach symphonic band level took her three years. All that time and experience is what I worry she is tossing aside. However, with swimming, she is swimming four days a week. Something needs to give. You also need to keep in mind that what they want from homeschoolers is different from those that attend school. W/homeschoolers they want to see that students have used their unique educational opportunity to develop their particular interests and aren't necessarily looking for a replica of school-attending individuals. This is an interesting commentary! One of the benefits of dropping band will be more time for things like engineering camp. But, most engineering schools require AP Chem, AP Calc, AP Physics, etc. So, still gotta have that traditional school transcript. I do have my eye on MIT open course ware classes. There are some very interesting electives she could take. There is no way I would have felt pressure or allowed my child to experience any pressure as a 7th grader. Living in Texas, "I" feel a tremendous pressure to get it right. Only way to get into UT Austin. I hope I am not relaying that feeling to my dd. But, she does understand that she can't slack off and expect to achieve her goal. She saw a list that had UT as one of the top engineering schools in the country and said, "that's where I want to go." Okay, I told her she's gotta make it happen - starting now. Edited November 27, 2011 by Chez J fix quote Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 I'm not so sure. To do anything well requires years of dedication, which I think is the point of the extracurricular activities. Just to reach symphonic band level took her three years. All that time and experience is what I worry she is tossing aside. However, with swimming, she is swimming four days a week. Something needs to give. This is an interesting commentary! One of the benefits of dropping band will be more time for things like engineering camp. But, most engineering schools require AP Chem, AP Calc, AP Physics, etc. So, still gotta have that traditional school transcript. I do have my eye on MIT open course ware classes. There are some very interesting electives she could take. Living in Texas, "I" feel a tremendous pressure to get it right. Only way to get into UT Austin. I hope I am not relaying that feeling to my dd. But, she does understand that she can't slack off and expect to achieve her goal. She saw a list that had UT as one of the top engineering schools in the country and said, "that's where I want to go." Okay, I told her she's gotta make it happen - starting now. The highlighted portions are very different philosophical views than my own. Perhaps this partially relates to EM's POV. While I agree becoming very accomplished in an activity does take yrs of practice, I'm not convinced that is what college admissions officers are looking for. My personal POV is that they are looking for well-rounded/balanced individuals. For example, my 13 yod was heavily involved in competitive figure skating. It got to the pt we were living at the rink. She had to make a decision as to what the goal of her skating was. She was not going to be Olympic level, so what were her objectives? She decided that spending so much time skating was actually limiting who she wanted to become and she quit skating. I think her volunteering at the nursing home a couple of weekends/month is actually more evidence of being well-rounded than spending hrs upon hrs on the ice. Academically, I don't "push" my kids. I expect them to do the level work they are capable of doing. So, while yes, competitive schools want to see high levels of academics, if I have a child that isn't getting himself/herself there and I am simply providing appropriate work, I wouldn't want them to pursue the competitive school atmosphere. For example, our 15 yos spends 10+ hrs on academics every day. (many days it is closer to 12). Those are his goals, not mine. I would never expect it of any student. He thrives on it and he is pushing himself to reach very specific goals. I feel NO pressure to keep that level of performance up. He is going to be very competitive simply b/c of who he is. His transcript beyond the normal AP/SAT 2 transcript and will also have 4 yrs of astronomy, 3 yrs of 1 foreign language, 4 yrs of another, and if I give in to him and let him take Greek in 11th and 12th, he'll have 2 yrs of it as well.......and this is a kid that wants to major in physics, astronomy, and math! I wonder if this is what EM is referring to? My child has ownership over all of this. I simply research the options that meet what he wants. Similarly, doing units on Shakespeare and poetry are feeding off of my 7th grader's interests. I don't feel compelled to go into this level of depth for a 7th grader, but she has specifically asked me to. I am simply along for the ride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Living in Texas, "I" feel a tremendous pressure to get it right. Only way to get into UT Austin. I hope I am not relaying that feeling to my dd. But, she does understand that she can't slack off and expect to achieve her goal. She saw a list that had UT as one of the top engineering schools in the country and said, "that's where I want to go." Okay, I told her she's gotta make it happen - starting now. I'd be a little concerned for anyone thinking there is only "one" college that fits or is a dream school. What happens if they don't get in? Many then think their life is ruined (yes, I've seen this happen multiple times). Sometimes they get depressed. Sometimes they can go years wondering, "if only." I far prefer the attitude that there are a few (or many, pending major) colleges that can work and part of finding the "right" one is both being accepted and being able to afford it. If one doesn't get accepted, the mindset then is more of, "well, obviously that wasn't my path in life, but this place is." Personally, I had my first choice school picked out, got in, and then couldn't go due to finances. I ended up being extremely happy with my second choice school - and met my wonderful hubby there... There was a reason the first choice school didn't work out for me. ;) My guys are told to list pros and cons of places they apply to. They can mentally list them, but are warned about falling in love too much. So far, it's worked. Of course, oldest is at his first choice school, but middle has told me a few times that he'd be happy at any place he applied to as he'll concentrate on the pros, not the what ifs. Youngest (10th grade) has even started looking for other options besides his #1 choice and is happy looking at other possibilities online. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 How do I know what is a "good" school? How do I know if a school is respected for the particular department ds desires? Asking around won't do much as our academic circle of influence is small. I'm on the hs2college yahoo group and I can google, but... any other tips would be helpful. Google will be your friend here. Try to find people in a job and/or hiring for jobs that your son might want and e-mail them. Many are quite happy to assist others. None of my boys are following in our footsteps. I've had to learn about micro-finance, medicine + research, and ethnobotany. That's been part of the fun actually. I've yet to have a person I've contacted or who I've had them contact who wasn't willing to help or offer their suggestions about colleges. Then I look to see what common denominators I come across in the advice. College Confidential's site can be useful, but it's stacked with high stat kids which could be rather discouraging when one is looking for average kid stats. That said, it can still be worth posting a question or two. My ethnobotany guy is going to be more average with SAT/ACT stats as his niche is botany, not math and somewhat not English. I got very good advice on where to start searching for ethnobotany from one question I posted. The Pre-med forum was essential (as well as talking with local doctors) about heading the med school route. Also I'm finding some schools seem to put you in classes for your major right away, a few seem to require a lot of core classes. What are the pros/cons of that? Those who see college as training for work or who prefer to be highly involved in their major like the former. Those who are more well-rounded overall or those who aren't so sure where their niche is tend to do better in the latter. There are oodles of colleges from community colleges to top level 4 year schools. Each one is right for someone. Finding that fit for our guys is our goal. IMO a wrong fit can be quite detrimental, so it's worth the effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie in MN Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 I just looked and for one of the majors ds is interested in. Over the four year period they take less than a dozen courses (quick look, still waking up) in their actual major. Classes that I would consider beyond the basic of drawing 101. Another university with the same degree has 18 classes specifically in that major. Again, still waking up, so I didn't look to see how many are required. The one with 18 classes has many more focused classes, not just advanced. I'd have to look at specifics, but again if you go through a Liberal Arts college, then the philosophy is going to be a more general education. However, the same University may have several options for you, so I wouldn't look up one program from each University. Within one location, you may find - Different colleges or schools with similar degrees at the same University. - One college or school likely offers several options (B.A., B.F.A., B.S., major, minor, honors). - As you mentioned, some degrees are designed more for the student going on to a master's program. But other degrees are designed more for the student who just intend to get a bachelor's degree. Some bachelor's degrees prepare students to head directly into the field. It isn't necessarily a mark of "better degrees" in my opinion, but just the way a particular field tends to operate. I still think the best source of info is going to be those who are in the field. What got them their jobs? Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 I still think the best source of info is going to be those who are in the field. What got them their jobs? That depends on the major. In some fields, where you get your undergraduate degree is not very relevant; it is where you go to graduate school what matters and what gets you a job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie in MN Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 I still think the best source of info is going to be those who are in the field. What got them their jobs? That depends on the major. In some fields, where you get your undergraduate degree is not very relevant; it is where you go to graduate school what matters and what gets you a job. Yes, wouldn't those who are in the field be the ones to tell you that info? The colleges are going to promote what they offer. It's the actual professionals who got real jobs in the field who would be able to tell you whether the undergraduate program mattered, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted November 27, 2011 Author Share Posted November 27, 2011 I'd have to look at specifics, but again if you go through a Liberal Arts college, then the philosophy is going to be a more general education. However, the same University may have several options for you, so I wouldn't look up one program from each University. Within one location, you may find - Different colleges or schools with similar degrees at the same University. - One college or school likely offers several options (B.A., B.F.A., B.S., major, minor, honors). - As you mentioned, some degrees are designed more for the student going on to a master's program. But other degrees are designed more for the student who just intend to get a bachelor's degree. Some bachelor's degrees prepare students to head directly into the field. It isn't necessarily a mark of "better degrees" in my opinion, but just the way a particular field tends to operate. I still think the best source of info is going to be those who are in the field. What got them their jobs? Julie yeah, this university doesn't have a lot of diversity in its degrees. It's a BS or BA major or minor. The university itself is small enough that there isn't much overlap in departments. But the location is good because ds could live at home. See this dialogue is helping. These are good pros and cons ds and I could discuss down the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez J Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 While I agree becoming very accomplished in an activity does take yrs of practice, I'm not convinced that is what college admissions officers are looking for. My personal POV is that they are looking for well-rounded/balanced individuals. That's good to hear that longevity is not what they are looking for. Wasn't the case when DH and I went. It did matter. Fortunately sports counts, which is what DD wants her focus to be. Academically, I don't "push" my kids. I expect them to do the level work they are capable of doing. ...For example, our 15 yos spends 10+ hrs on academics every day. (many days it is closer to 12). Those are his goals, not mine. I would never expect it of any student. He thrives on it and he is pushing himself to reach very specific goals. I feel NO pressure to keep that level of performance up. He is going to be very competitive simply b/c of who he is. I really don't think anyone can really make a kid who doesn't want to do it, do the work. We read on here all the time about unmotivated kids and how parents can't get them to focus. If you are saying that because I am posting on a thread about being a guidance counselor that "my" feeling pressure is translated into pushing a kid, then I didn't articulate well. We are talking about the stress and strategy of being a guidance counselor. I do feel pressure about that. It's part of the job of homeschooling. DD is pretty well-rounded. She is accelerated, she is getting straight A's, she has found a sport she wants to spend more time pursuing, she volunteers at church. I'm not sure why I feel like you're saying my worry about dropping band translates into pushing academically. I'm betting I'm reading you wrong. :confused: I'd be a little concerned for anyone thinking there is only "one" college that fits or is a dream school. ...I far prefer the attitude that there are a few (or many, pending major) colleges that can work and part of finding the "right" one is both being accepted and being able to afford it. This is the HUGE problem for Texans. It's the state school - translate as the affordable one - that is so selective! We probably have an easier chance to get into Rice, which is an excellent engineering school. But it's way more expensive! She could go to UTA in Arlington, but it has limits on the wholeness of the college experience. No way on Texas Tech - party school extraordinaire! I'm talking up a bunch of different schools - even out of state ones. But, living in Texas, well Texans wanna go to UT. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Yes, wouldn't those who are in the field be the ones to tell you that info? The colleges are going to promote what they offer. It's the actual professionals who got real jobs in the field who would be able to tell you whether the undergraduate program mattered, etc. :iagree: So far, it's worked well for us. I suppose I won't KNOW until my guys get jobs, but... I've also learned not to go the cc route for pre-med and other good info that I might otherwise not have known. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowbeltmom Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 I've also learned not to go the cc route for pre-med and other good info that I might otherwise not have known. Creekland, we too are avoiding the cc route because of what I have read in regards to pre-med. My son still has very excellent options outside of the cc, but I was wondering if you have been told by any "official person" that cc should be avoided? I have been advised by the folks on College Confidential, but I was never able to get a definitive answer from the admissions staff at the two medical schools I contacted. Both just referred me to their websites...eh, gee, thanks a lot for that info.:confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 That's good to hear that longevity is not what they are looking for. Wasn't the case when DH and I went. It did matter. Fortunately sports counts, which is what DD wants her focus to be. I really don't think anyone can really make a kid who doesn't want to do it, do the work. We read on here all the time about unmotivated kids and how parents can't get them to focus. If you are saying that because I am posting on a thread about being a guidance counselor that "my" feeling pressure is translated into pushing a kid, then I didn't articulate well. We are talking about the stress and strategy of being a guidance counselor. I do feel pressure about that. It's part of the job of homeschooling. DD is pretty well-rounded. She is accelerated, she is getting straight A's, she has found a sport she wants to spend more time pursuing, she volunteers at church. I'm not sure why I feel like you're saying my worry about dropping band translates into pushing academically. I'm betting I'm reading you wrong. :confused: This is the HUGE problem for Texans. It's the state school - translate as the affordable one - that is so selective! We probably have an easier chance to get into Rice, which is an excellent engineering school. But it's way more expensive! She could go to UTA in Arlington, but it has limits on the wholeness of the college experience. No way on Texas Tech - party school extraordinaire! I'm talking up a bunch of different schools - even out of state ones. But, living in Texas, well Texans wanna go to UT. :lol: My comments were in regards to the pressure you feel and EM's comments about not understanding the pressure. I can't imagine feeling pressure about anything in regards to the college application process in 7th grade, so thinking about things from this perspective made me appreciate EM's. While I don't feel pressure about the college application process one way or the other b/c my view is that if one doesn't work out, there are always alternative options, I couldn't quite relate to her posts. But after reading some of the other responses (it just happens to be yours that clarified some issues) I do think I am starting to understand what she was discussing. FWIW, your description about colleges is not unique to TX. VA and GA schools are top ranked schools w/very competitive admissions. It is actually easier to get scholarships to top-tier private schools and end up w/lower costs than the public unis b/c the public schools offer much less scholarship $$. I wouldn't restrict the application process to only the state schools b/c you might be surprised by the cost outcomes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Creekland, we too are avoiding the cc route because of what I have read in regards to pre-med. My son still has very excellent options outside of the cc, but I was wondering if you have been told by any "official person" that cc should be avoided? I have been advised by the folks on College Confidential, but I was never able to get a definitive answer from the admissions staff at the two medical schools I contacted. Both just referred me to their websites...eh, gee, thanks a lot for that info.:confused: The only thing I heard from one med school admin person is that, "It's very competitive to get in," in response to that question. I took it as a "best not go that route" when listening between the lines (so to speak). By stating it that way it wasn't a direct, "no," but matches what I've read that it tends to be a nick against an application. I'd rather not have any nicks. This same person freely mentioned that their school accepts AP credits if the undergrad university does, but agreed that other medical schools don't. Therefore, I don't think it's a 100% "no" thing (or she'd have said so). I do just think it's a nick and with competitive admissions, we'd prefer no nicks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teachin'Mine Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Regarding the avoidance of cc, is that for any classes or is it just for required pre-med classes - such as biology, chemistry, etc.? Is it really detrimental for a high school student to have taken dual enrollment classes at a cc? :confused: What if the courses are repeated at the 4 year university, is it still a strike against them? :confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmilyK Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 I don't know if this will help anyone, but just as a PSA, it is possible to hire a college admissions consultant to assist with the college search and/or with the application itself. School guidance counselors are so overburdened or not particularly helpful that there is a surprising market for these consultants. I know one consultant personally, and I'll probably seek at least a little advice from her, if not a lot, when the time comes, even though my kids hopefully will attend a Jesuit high school. My understanding is that in some cases, particularly for those planning to apply to selective schools, it can be helpful to meet with such a person earlier in high school. I was going to post this as well. I'm not sure of the range in costs, but I've heard some will "meet" remotely with folks who don't live where there are any private college consultants. I've known a couple and heard of others, and if you can afford it, I think it could be worthwhile. Most public schools are too overwhelmed to do much on this front anymore, and so many people I know go this route. There seem to be some accrediting bodies: American Institute of Certified Educational Planners Higher Education Consultants Association National Association for College Admission Counseling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Regarding the avoidance of cc' date=' is that for any classes or is it just for required pre-med classes - such as biology, chemistry, etc.? Is it really detrimental for a high school student to have taken dual enrollment classes at a cc? :confused: What if the courses are repeated at the 4 year university, is it still a strike against them? :confused:[/quote'] Just the required pre-med classes. It generally believed that it's better to retake the required classes at a 4 year school (turning down dual enrollment credit) as many med schools want to see those "difficult" weeder classes taken at the 4 year school. They don't want to see students trying to get out of them by taking them "somewhere easier." Med school is tough and they want to know the student is up to the challenge - not trying to avoid it. My guy took Microbio at a cc as a dual enrollment class. That should be ok since it's not a pre-req class (even though it's science). We avoided Bio and Chem since I learned about the potential cc/med school issue. We also avoided the AP tests for both, but he still is doing "advanced" work in both to be up where other students likely to be in his classes will be at. And, if you did take anything at a cc, it'd better be an A and followed up with other higher level courses at the 4 year school. Med schools get ALL grades from college level science classes - even those that were AP and cc dual enrollment, etc., to calculate the GPA. (Summing up a bit of what I've read in various places regarding med school admissions.) It's not necessarily colleges that frown upon cc credits (though some do). It's med school admissions after undergrad. In 2010 there were some 86,000 people who took the MCAT leading to some 42,700 (if I remember correctly) applicants (individual applicants), for just 18,600 med school slots. Less than half the applicants get in anywhere and almost all are top caliber undergrads. There's a lot of data here: https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/ Look at Table 17 at the bottom for the average stats of those who make it in. (MCAT of 31.1, GPA of 3.67 of which 3.61 in science classes and 3.75 outside of those, etc) Compare those to the applicants average (MCAT of 28.3, GPA of 3.53 of which 3.43 in science and 3.65 overall). There isn't much difference IMO. Taking perceived "easier" pre-req courses at cc is a rather big nick due to the competitiveness of it all. I don't want any nicks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Tangent: I thought avoiding cc coursework only applied if one intended them to used for college credit or to waive majors coursework? My eldest, for example, took a gazillion cc courses, all of which are for high school credit only, effectively speaking, and she is not going to try to have classes waived at Brandeis based on that coursework. As I understand the system, if she were to (inexplicably, and uncharacteristically) decide to go premed, she wouldn't have any issues. Am I misunderstanding? I think you're correct if they are high school level only. The issue comes when they are considered college level courses. Some colleges won't allow any dual enrollment courses to count. Those are ok. When colleges do allow the credit there can be issues for med schools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teachin'Mine Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Just the required pre-med classes. It generally believed that it's better to retake the required classes at a 4 year school (turning down dual enrollment credit) as many med schools want to see those "difficult" weeder classes taken at the 4 year school. They don't want to see students trying to get out of them by taking them "somewhere easier." Med school is tough and they want to know the student is up to the challenge - not trying to avoid it. My guy took Microbio at a cc as a dual enrollment class. That should be ok since it's not a pre-req class (even though it's science). We avoided Bio and Chem since I learned about the potential cc/med school issue. We also avoided the AP tests for both, but he still is doing "advanced" work in both to be up where other students likely to be in his classes will be at. And, if you did take anything at a cc, it'd better be an A and followed up with other higher level courses at the 4 year school. Med schools get ALL grades from college level science classes - even those that were AP and cc dual enrollment, etc., to calculate the GPA. (Summing up a bit of what I've read in various places regarding med school admissions.) It's not necessarily colleges that frown upon cc credits (though some do). It's med school admissions after undergrad. In 2010 there were some 86,000 people who took the MCAT leading to some 42,700 (if I remember correctly) applicants (individual applicants), for just 18,600 med school slots. Less than half the applicants get in anywhere and almost all are top caliber undergrads. There's a lot of data here: https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/ Look at Table 17 at the bottom for the average stats of those who make it in. (MCAT of 31.1, GPA of 3.67 of which 3.61 in science classes and 3.75 outside of those, etc) Compare those to the applicants average (MCAT of 28.3, GPA of 3.53 of which 3.43 in science and 3.65 overall). There isn't much difference IMO. Taking perceived "easier" pre-req courses at cc is a rather big nick due to the competitiveness of it all. I don't want any nicks. I can't get the link to work, but I understand what you're saying. I'm glad to hear that it's only a negative if the student is taking the main pre-reqs at cc and then not re-taking them at the university. In looking at some of the more selective colleges, I'm noticing that some don't accept either AP or cc dual enrollment credits, and many don't accept the cc de credits. I wasn't expecting the math courses to be accepted, but I was hoping the other credits would carry over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowbeltmom Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 I'm glad to hear that it's only a negative if the student is taking the main pre-reqs at cc and then not re-taking them at the university. In looking at some of the more selective colleges' date=' I'm noticing that some don't accept either AP or cc dual enrollment credits, and many don't accept the cc de credits. I wasn't expecting the math courses to be accepted, but I was hoping the other credits would carry over.[/quote'] I was told that it is a negative to take any pre-med science classes at the cc regardless of whether the student will use those class credits at his four year college. My son is taking AP Chemistry this year, and I was planning on him taking Organic Chemistry next year at our cc. This class would have been listed on his transcript as a high school class as he had no intention of using the credits from this class to place out of Organic at his 4 year college. (In fact, our local four year private university would not even accept these cc credits.) I questioned why is would matter what classes my son took while in high school, especially considering the fact that he was not using the credits to place out of any classes in college - these classes were meeting his high school requirements. Many answered my question by stating that is would look like my son needed to take a class twice to "get it." I then questioned how the med schools would even know what my son did in high school when he was not using any cc credits gained in his high school years at his four year college. Someone then posted me a link to the medical school application. The application specifically asks the student to list all college level classes taken during the high school years. The only exception was AP classes - those they did not want listed. Even classes that were audited or self-studied they wanted the student to list. My son wants to major in chemistry in undergrad. It seems silly to me not to continue his education in chemistry. He is taking Organic next year using MIT Opencourseware. However, I may not list it on his high school transcript since he has more than enough science credits. I also plan on him taking Calc based physics his senior year. I am planning on jumping through the extra stupid hoop to have his course approved by the College Board - otherwise, he would have to list this self-study class on his medical school application. That way he can list it on his high school transcript, but not his medical school application. Again, I have never received an official confirmation of what I was told on College Confidential. But as someone on College Confidential pointed out to me, these classes taken during high school must be important or else the medical schools wouldn't ask for them to be listed on the application. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 These were all college level courses - most 200 level. ...but if they are all credited only as high school, it is okay? Sorry to be so dense... Any that are not science or possibly Calc, feel free to use if Brandeis allows it. Med schools won't care. Decline any credits from General Bio, Chem, Organic Chem, and for some med schools, Calc. Also note that the MCAT is changing in 2015 (the year 2012 high school grads would generally take it). That's an additional, huge, UGH for those of us caught in the change. They are adding in more social sciences making me really iffy on knowing if my guy should take the AP for Psychology or not. I've told my guy that whether or not he takes AP Calc and AP Psych will depend upon what his med school adviser tells him. We're also asking each school we visit what they are doing to prepare for the MCAT change. Better schools are thinking pro-actively and share that. Other schools seem to be taking a wait and see attitude - making me think they're going to just see what happens with the first year or two, then adjust. Pitt seemed to be in the latter, so it's another reason I'm kind of glad they are off our list now. Of our choices, Furman and Wash U in StL are in the former. We didn't get to Baylor at all and we didn't get to see the pre-med adviser at Alabama. I suspect Brandeis would be pro-active. In our experience, the vast majority of pre-med advisers at decent colleges are aware of AP credit/cc issues and advise accordingly coming in to their undergrad. The main worry would be for someone who decided later on that they wanted to go to med school. Then, since med schools aren't 100% against things (some allow AP, some don't), you might just have to apply to med schools that are more flexible. I can't get the link to work, but I understand what you're saying. I'm glad to hear that it's only a negative if the student is taking the main pre-reqs at cc and then not re-taking them at the university. In looking at some of the more selective colleges, I'm noticing that some don't accept either AP or cc dual enrollment credits, and many don't accept the cc de credits. I wasn't expecting the math courses to be accepted, but I was hoping the other credits would carry over. I just got the link to work this morning. I wonder if it was down last night. It does take longer to load than some, but I blamed that on our computer. Maybe not. I've found that many top notch schools don't accept much in cc or de credits. AP seems accepted the most, but even at schools that accept AP (Wash U in StL is one), they won't accept AP Bio nor Chem for pre-med students. Pitt would have allowed it, but even they cautioned that med school applications would be limited by accepting those credits. Cc credits tend to be more frowned upon than AP (by med schools). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez J Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Many answered my question by stating that is would look like my son needed to take a class twice to "get it." The only exception was AP classes - those they did not want listed. Even classes that were audited or self-studied they wanted the student to list. I also plan on him taking Calc based physics his senior year. I am planning on jumping through the extra stupid hoop to have his course approved by the College Board - otherwise, he would have to list this self-study class on his medical school application. That way he can list it on his high school transcript, but not his medical school application. But as someone on College Confidential pointed out to me, these classes taken during high school must be important or else the medical schools wouldn't ask for them to be listed on the application. Thank you!!!! You just gave me the final little justification for continuing homeschool through high school, unless DD gets more, um, competitive in swimming. All the schools here seems to use dual-enrollment as their main source of upper-level courses. We have been toying with sending dd to school because of the selectivity of the state schools. However, they all say that if you want certain courses, they provide that through dual-enrollment. This has always made me nervous. You explain why very well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 I was told that it is a negative to take any pre-med science classes at the cc regardless of whether the student will use those class credits at his four year college. I agree that the best deal is to not take them at all and not have any indication of them. It's why we avoided Bio and Chem at cc and are self-studying AP level, but not for the AP. However, for someone who has already taken them, they can't go back and change anything, therefore, the second best is to not accept credits for them and take the weeder classes at the 4 year school. Any AP credits accepted do show up on the transcript. Therefore, even if one takes AP Bio or Chem, 'tis best not to accept them. This, perhaps, is another reason why it's good to research and learn a bit ahead of time - the original issue with this thread. ;) Even though it's science I've been told my guy's 200 level Microbio class will be ok since it's not a pre-req. It's good that he got one of the 4 As in the class... It will count toward his science (and overall) GPA. He'll have Effective Speaking and English Comp too (if his undergrad allows those credits). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 All the schools here seems to use dual-enrollment as their main source of upper-level courses. We have been toying with sending dd to school because of the selectivity of the state schools. The school I work at has dropped almost all APs in favor of DE. I try to tell them that AP is better, at least for certain cases. They refuse to listen. It's frustrating. Part of why we did DE is because I went along with them at first - until I've discovered the truth with middle son. One of my biggest regrets was not doing more AP with him. My school likes DE because students can get credit in class with no national test. On the AP tests (when we had them), very few students would get a 2 or higher. It's a perfect example of why many colleges consider AP better... DE varies in quality way too much to be trusted (ditto that with cc in general). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowbeltmom Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 This, perhaps, is another reason why it's good to research and learn a bit ahead of time - the original issue with this thread. ;) Exactly! There is no blueprint for homeschoolers to follow, and I am trying to research all I can to avoid those "nicks" as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Exactly! There is no blueprint for homeschoolers to follow, and I am trying to research all I can to avoid those "nicks" as well. My original plan called for my guy to take both Bio and Chem at the cc. At the time I thought that would BETTER show his ability to schools... silly me! Research helped us and I'm thankful! People who have been there, done that (recently) are a valuable treasure trove of knowledge to be gleaned especially for super competitive niches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastian (a lady) Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 I honestly do not see how a child can come up with ideas what is important to ask, and how to evaluate the answers, if he does not have an adult who can help. So, why does the adult have to be a stranger, and not a parent? If I see what kinds of criteria people use for college choice, I am scratching my head, because most of the factors have very little to do with the academic quality of the department where the kid wants to major. Most of the information that is readily available through the schools is about things which, in my opinion, are completely extraneous. The admissions departments of the universities are certainly not giving unbiased information. Ideally, the student would have to contact faculty members in his desired major at different universities and ask them whether they would encourage their own son or daughter to study at their own university in their own department. I suspect that many professors would be wary of answering this question honestly when asked by a complete stranger, let alone put the response in writing ;-) I've been reading up on college apps. The bolded above was hammered home in a couple books (Crazy U and Debt-Free U). Lots of skepticism from both these authors about college rankings and even visits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teachin'Mine Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Well, back to the original thread topic, unfortunately my dd's guidance counselor isn't too swift and and has actually encouraged her student to take de classes at cc. I was thinking that it would be outside verification for grades she's received and proof of her ability to handle college courses. So far, she's not interested in medicine, but of course that can change. How frustrating that schools would look at it as "not being able to get it" rather than "has exceeded what's available at high school and wants to continue learning". With math, honestly we'll have no choice. She's self studying, through Saxon, with Calculus I but after that we really don't have a choice - other than having her attend a university for the classes and that's not financially possible. Sounds like I need to be self-educating more than I have been on this college stuff. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Well' date=' back to the original thread topic, unfortunately my dd's guidance counselor isn't too swift and and has actually encouraged her student to take de classes at cc. I was thinking that it would be outside verification for grades she's received and proof of her ability to handle college courses. So far, she's not interested in medicine, but of course that can change. How frustrating that schools would look at it as "not being able to get it" rather than "has exceeded what's available at high school and wants to continue learning". With math, honestly we'll have no choice. She's self studying, through Saxon, with Calculus I but after that we really don't have a choice - other than having her attend a university for the classes and that's not financially possible. Sounds like I need to be self-educating more than I have been on this college stuff. :tongue_smilie:[/quote'] Pre-med is totally different than "colleges." When we're talking about pre-med specifics we're talking about trends med schools (not undergrad schools) look for or penalize against. To get into "college" DE can be good for grade substantiation. I went that route myself with oldest (not pre-med) and did some of it for middle son too. While finding this "stuff" out with middle son I've come to the conclusion that AP is better than DE in the overall sense. But, it doesn't mean that DE won't work for college admissions. Oldest got accepted to all three of his schools, although none were highly selective (they weren't low level either). All offered merit aid. Middle son has already been accepted to three of his schools with merit aid and Honors College at all three. He has three DE classes (two with grades already) and one AP. I'm pretty sure all of his credits will transfer to these three schools (AP and DE). I'm not so sure about the schools he's waiting to hear from (they notify in the spring). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teachin'Mine Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 I'm wondering if this is only applicable to medical schools because of the stiff competition for the available spots, or if this applies to other selective graduate programs. I can't imagine that they're the only ones looking at it the way they are. With as complicated as it all is, I can't imagine that many students could devote the time needed to research all of this while still carrying a full course load and having other interests. This is just one example of why we as parents are needed for guidance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowbeltmom Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 ... How frustrating that schools would look at it as "not being able to get it" rather than "has exceeded what's available at high school and wants to continue learning". With math' date=' honestly we'll have no choice. She's self studying, through Saxon, with Calculus I but after that we really don't have a choice - other than having her attend a university for the classes and that's not financially possible. Sounds like I need to be self-educating more than I have been on this college stuff. :tongue_smilie:[/quote'] :iagree: with the bolded. I don't think that studying math beyond Calc at the cc would be a problem if she decided to apply to medical school since medical schools do not require any math beyond calculus. Since we will be avoiding the cc, my son will only have one non-online outside class grade on his transcript (he took AP Physics B at our high school last year.) He will be relying more on AP and SAT II scores for his outside verifications. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ester Maria Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Okay, that is it. I am going to hire private councelors for them to work with them, whatever that "work" consists of, in spite of the fact that, in my stingy eyes, it is still going to be a wasted money. Seeing that you all are dead serious about the need for guidance from early on, I am going to accept this as one of my many personal idiosyncrasies where I part with reality and go against my instincts. Now of course I feel like a monster, thinking about the general level of independence I require from my kids. :glare: But they also get a lot of freedom in return! :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie in MN Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Many answered my question by stating that is would look like my son needed to take a class twice to "get it." I wonder if this was mere speculation. My son wasn't premed, but he was competing for admission & scholarships, and he - took calculus at the high school - calculus at the CC - and calculus at his college That was never frowned upon. All his grades were A. I suppose if the student got poor grades? Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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