lisabees Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Just wondering. Dd is amazing with logic. Rips through tons of logic books, of all kinds, and has an amazing visual/spatial sense. But she doesn't pick up math facts easily (although she loves MEP and totally gets it). Just trying to figure her out, so I can help her "see" math facts in a way that might help her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boscopup Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 People can be good at math but have problems memorizing math facts. Have you tried methods that visualize the facts? Cuisenaire Rods do this very well. Other folks might have other methods. I'm not well versed in VSL, but that sounds like what your DD might be. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleIzumi Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Dd is amazing at logic and at math conceptually. She has a much harder time with her facts and with explaining WHY the answer is _____. :lurk5: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 I notice when working with math here that the short term memory can get in the way. Especially with story problems! Holding more than one step of a concept at a time and reorganizing that I think can be a maturation skill. If the math you see a struggle with are more than one step in depth that might just be it. Lots of practice is the only thing I know that helps, or just backing down to rote drill skills if it's not a "good day" for it. I don't know what it is about transferring numbers to paper, but that can be a sore spot here also. But put her in a card game? Whole different level of fluency. It could be different approaches work different ways for now. Do you notice a difference in her skill ability depending on the tools used to work or solve problems? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca VA Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Here's a thought: Maybe the stories in the logic books are more interesting than math problems. She might get really interested in sorting out, say, which name belongs to which dog...or solving a logic mystery...or doing the very appealing puzzles. My own child (now 14) is like this. She's very good in math, but her verbal skills are even greater. (I would never have dreamed this was true when she was younger, because she was a late talker who didn't like to read, but standardized testing has borne this out repeatedly.) Numbers by themselves bore her, but she'll drop everything for the chance to solve a fun logic problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lisabees Posted October 13, 2011 Author Share Posted October 13, 2011 (edited) I notice when working with math here that the short term memory can get in the way. Especially with story problems! Holding more than one step of a concept at a time and reorganizing that I think can be a maturation skill. Do you notice a difference in her skill ability depending on the tools used to work or solve problems? It is not just multi-step problems. It is an interesting thought, though, and I'll keep my eye out for it. Dd is amazing at logic and at math conceptually. She has a much harder time with her facts and with explaining WHY the answer is _____. :lurk5: Yup. This is dd. Have you tried methods that visualize the facts? Cuisenaire Rods do this very well. Other folks might have other methods. I'm not well versed in VSL, but that sounds like what your DD might be. :) Hmmm. She likes the abacus and Singapore's way of visualizing (but prefers MEP by a mile; she calls it puzzle math). She and I use the Singapore way when she is confused about something in MEP. Here's a thought: Maybe the stories in the logic books are more interesting than math problems. She might get really interested in sorting out, say, which name belongs to which dog...or solving a logic mystery...or doing the very appealing puzzles. Well, you certainly described her personality. Everything is a story to her. Everything must be solved using creative thinking. She sees images in everything. Just reading a book aloud is frustrating because she needs to talk about it and tell me what she is thinking and imagining. Sigh. ETA (to show her personality): Just the other day, ds12 used the word "war" in a conversation. DD8 said, "Mom. Every time I think of war, I see a maze. The soldiers are trying to get through the maze and at the end, they see a mother and kill her. I always see that in my head when I hear the word war." WHAT? Poor girl - she thinks too much. Thanks for your thoughts! Edited October 13, 2011 by lisabees Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zenjenn Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 (edited) My DH was "slow" as a young student, including math. Dyslexia played a part. After algebra he took off, graduated cum laude in physics from UCLA and is now a successful physicist/R&D engineer. I think I am seeing the same patterns with my DD age 9. She has no trouble remembering new concepts or working word problems but just basic calculations/fact memorization is difficult for her. Cuissenare rods have been very valuable for addiction/subtraction and Times Tales DVD for multiplication and division has been a miracle. The former works because she can easily work if she can see things visually/symbolically - which is exactly why my husband describes algebra was a breath of fresh air for him. To this day, he works exclusively with variables while doing complex calculations. No numbers are used until he is forced to do so (and at that point, uses a calculator of course). And when it comes to reading a clock or something like mentally calculating a tip - I can do so faster than my DH, even though his mathematical understanding and proficiency FAR exceeds mine. Edited October 13, 2011 by zenjenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleIzumi Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Well, you certainly described her personality. Everything is a story to her. Everything must be solved using creative thinking. She sees images in everything. Just reading a book aloud is frustrating because she needs to talk about it and tell me what she is thinking and imagining. Sigh. ETA (to show her personality): Just the other day, ds12 used the word "war" in a conversation. DD8 said, "Mom. Every time I think of war, I see a maze. The soldiers are trying to get through the maze and at the end, they see a mother and kill her. I always see that in my head when I hear the word war." WHAT? Poor girl - she thinks too much. YES. That is totally dd. I am very :lurk5::lurk5::lurk5: for ideas. If she's not in the math mood, she starts drawing all over the numbers--turns them into people, animals, princesses, gives the numbers mittens and makes snow over them, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lisabees Posted October 13, 2011 Author Share Posted October 13, 2011 YES. That is totally dd. I am very :lurk5::lurk5::lurk5: for ideas. If she's not in the math mood, she starts drawing all over the numbers--turns them into people, animals, princesses, gives the numbers mittens and makes snow over them, etc. Oh my word!!! Yes! That is dd! I have a feeling our daughter's papers would look very similar! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 I did great at math, except for memorizing facts. I didn't get the times tables memorized until algebra, but since I wasn't allowed a calculator until precalc I just kept figuring out the multiplication by hand until I finally remembered it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKDmom Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 YES. That is totally dd. I am very :lurk5::lurk5::lurk5: for ideas. If she's not in the math mood, she starts drawing all over the numbers--turns them into people, animals, princesses, gives the numbers mittens and makes snow over them, etc. Haha! My dd does this too! Maybe not quite so much, but a few weeks ago, I sat her down with a couple Math Mammoth worksheets, and I went to take a shower. Twenty minutes later she had done 2 or 3 problems, and drawn shapes all around the borders of her page. :glare: She is highly verbal and artistic, but she's about a year behind where she ought to be in math. She tore through one of those Mind Benders books in about a week. The logic is so much more interesting to her than boring old numbers. I keep telling her that she will like math once she gets to algebra. (So please finish your worksheet so that you can get to algebra sooner rather than later...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 I was a good logic student, and a lousy math student. So it is possible. I did really well in high school computer programming to, the best math mark I ever made. One of the problems I had is that I find it very difficult to hold numbers in my head. Another issue was motivation. But I wonder if a big issue isn't that a lot of students find math to be abitrary or almost too concrete. As far as I have been able to tell talking to people who are really gifted at math, even very advanced, abstract mathematics are very structural to them. I've often thought that if I had been taught in a way that made this more clear I might not have struggled so much as a child. I was an abstract thinker, for me the abstract was more real than the concrete. So I loved things like logic. But math had only been tied to the concrete, and no one ever showed me how it was part of an abstract reality. I know that sounds a bit backwards, but that is my intuition about this; it's something I've been considering as I can see my young daughter has a similar way of thinking that I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenmama2 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 But I wonder if a big issue isn't that a lot of students find math to be abitrary or almost too concrete. As far as I have been able to tell talking to people who are really gifted at math, even very advanced, abstract mathematics are very structural to them. I've often thought that if I had been taught in a way that made this more clear I might not have struggled so much as a child. I was an abstract thinker, for me the abstract was more real than the concrete. So I loved things like logic. But math had only been tied to the concrete, and no one ever showed me how it was part of an abstract reality. I know that sounds a bit backwards, but that is my intuition about this; it's something I've been considering as I can see my young daughter has a similar way of thinking that I do. I suspect the same. In my country educators go to lengths to tie high school maths to the "real world" to keep students motivated. I feel for a lot of kids this is exactly the wrong approach. I was always far more interested in the abstract applications. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Sounds like she's very strongly VSL. You can research that on the boards as well as Freed's book "Right-Brained Children in a Left-Brained World" and products like Times Tales which attempt to give the dc pictures to visualize for their math. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnegurochkaL Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) I have a 9 years old who is always very good with logic and very good at math when she is in mood. She memorized a multiplication table(;, but still culculate too slow for my taste. She gets concept, figures out the logical part of the word problems but makes mistakes during a calculation process. My 4 years old is very strong at logic, but needs a lots of visual stimulation to solve simple equations. He does better when he "sees" the concept, so I am using RS math and a lot of manipulatives to reinforce his understanding of math. Edited October 17, 2011 by SneguochkaL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catz Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I have math degree and I'm terrible with math facts. I nevergot good with them until I gwot more interesting math. Conceptual math and speed recall of math facts are 2 completely different skills IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lisabees Posted October 19, 2011 Author Share Posted October 19, 2011 You all are making me feel better! :D I was a good logic student, and a lousy math student. So it is possible. I did really well in high school computer programming to, the best math mark I ever made. One of the problems I had is that I find it very difficult to hold numbers in my head. Another issue was motivation. But I wonder if a big issue isn't that a lot of students find math to be abitrary or almost too concrete. As far as I have been able to tell talking to people who are really gifted at math, even very advanced, abstract mathematics are very structural to them. I've often thought that if I had been taught in a way that made this more clear I might not have struggled so much as a child. I was an abstract thinker, for me the abstract was more real than the concrete. So I loved things like logic. But math had only been tied to the concrete, and no one ever showed me how it was part of an abstract reality. I know that sounds a bit backwards, but that is my intuition about this; it's something I've been considering as I can see my young daughter has a similar way of thinking that I do. So - how are you teaching your dd differently? Sounds like she's very strongly VSL. You can research that on the boards as well as Freed's book "Right-Brained Children in a Left-Brained World" and products like Times Tales which attempt to give the dc pictures to visualize for their math. Yes, Elizabeth, she certainly is a VSL! Much like my older dyslexic son. He struggled tremendously with language, of course, but he has freakish visual spatial awareness - aware of concrete objects, people and their emotions. DD is all that, along with a wild imagination! :D Dd has to go the eye doctor to see if she needs glasses. She told me that she hopes glasses don't stop her from "seeing" things the way she does! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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