Obedience vs. Responsibility in our dc.

[5LittleMonkeys]

My dh and I have been making a bigger effort to instill in our oldest dc a sense of responsibility versus just being obedient. This morning dh was trying to explain to dd13 that she wasn't really living up to our expectations regarding her responsibilities. We did offer that it was probably our fault for not making it more clear that she needed to not wait for someone to tell her to do this or that but that from here on out we did expect her to step up and own all of her responsibilities(he stressed all because there are things...her bed, her clothes, her room that she maintains without having to be reminded). She offered that she always complied any time he or I asked her to do anything and so she didn't understand why he was frustrated with her. He told her that responsibility is doing x because you know it needs to be done, not just doing it when your told to do it. Her attitude implied that she felt that was above and beyond what should be expected of her.

 

She said, "If you want the dishwasher emptied then just tell me and I'll do it." He replied, "I'm telling you that from now until further notice you need to empty the dishwasher before breakfast every morning. There, I've told you." She responded with, "But sometimes I forget...why can't you or mom just remind me?" He finished with, "Because it's your responsibility to remember just as it's your responsibility to do it."

 

In our home, we have obedience covered. Make your bed, pick up those clothes, put a load of laundry in, vacuum that room, dust those blinds, and even the less specific...do the chores on your list, are all commands meet with almost immediate compliance by my dc. We are good on that front. What seems to be lacking in our home is the shift from complying when told to do something with just taking it upon themselves to do it because they know it needs to be done.

 

An example: Dd13 and dd12 are responsible for clearing the table and cleaning up the kitchen after dinner each night. They always finish eating dinner before the rest of us and as dh and I like to linger at the table to chat, we excuse them and they go upstairs. They KNOW they have to do the kitchen, have been doing it for two years, yet every. single. night. I have to call them back down to do it. I have, on occasion, not called them down to see if they will come down on their own after a reasonable time and get it done. They don't. I have gone upstairs to chat with them after everyone is finished with dinner...they know everyone is done becuase they see everyone upstairs...yet they still don't go do the kitchen without being told. When asked at 10:30 at night why they haven't cleaned the kitchen they respond with, "No one told us to.":glare:

 

I know that I could set consequences for not "remembering" and train them to do this but I know I would be just training them for this one specific task. It wouldn't instill in them the true sense of responsibility that I want them to have. So, I have to ask myself if what I'm expecting is age or developmentally appropriate. I know all dc gain maturity at different ages but are my dc even in the ballpark as far as being of the ages that I should be expecting more responsibility instead of just obedience?

[Jean in Newcastle]

"With freedom comes responsibility". Does she have growing freedom to go with her growing responsibility? And if she doesn't show responsibility are you taking away some of her freedoms? Brainstorm with her on how she can remind herself of her responsibilities - a check list, a calendar, post-it notes.

[AvasMom]

What about having daily checklists for them? You can even make them fill them out and you can just once at the beginning of the week make sure everything is on there. Honestly, I live and die by my Motivated Moms checklist or I feel lost and like I'm just scurring around aimlessly. Then it's their responsibility to check the list every day. If they "forget" something then they are without excuse because it's in black and white in front of them.

[helena]

This is EXACTLY where we're at too! I have a no TV, computer, DS rule until chores are done. Of course, they don't care too much about those thing. :glare:

 

The last chores of the night are especially frustrating though.. I'm tired of this rut.

 

(We have a very simple, straight forward chore list.)

 

:lurk5:

[eternalknot]

I'm an "out of sight, out of mind" person, so I relate to your daughters being upstairs ... lost in their world up there ... and forgetting about, though not avoiding per se, the PM kitchen chores. I don't know if this is the case with your girls, but even now I have to see things to remember they need my attention! Over the years I had to find ways of making sure I "saw" everything, which resulted in my being a master list maker - I can always "see" my list! I usually keep one in my pocket and check it throughout the day; might that work for them, too?

 

With regards to the dinner situation, I have a few questions. When you say "sit and linger" does that mean you eat slowly? Or does that mean you all finish meals around the same time but you and DH sit and linger over dessert or wine or something? What's keeping the girls from starting on clean-up immediately after they finish, but before you and DH do? I think it's reasonable that anyone who wants to sit and linger should do so, but would then accept responsibility for any clearing or dishes that stayed to sit and linger with them. They can play once their chores are done, without worry. I'm missing a few details about your routine, but going off of what I read in the original post it seems like they're accepting of responsibility ... they just sometimes defer it for reasons outside of their control. Then, because it's not fun or important for them, it slips off of their radar entirely (resulting in the need for reminders from you). Maybe if they could begin clean-up right away when they "see" it needs to be done, the responsibility aspect will become more evident?

 

ETA: We worked on Anticipation of Someone's Needs by focusing on one specific task (helping me bring in stuff from the car), and I'm pleased to share that all on his own -in very short time- did my boy start anticipating someone's needs in other areas of life. That one specific task was a catalyst -the Gateway!- so I definitely think focusing on one specific task can be a good stepping stone into fully owning whatever trait you aim to teach (Responsibility).

Edited October 1, 2011 by eternalknot

[Lily_Grace]

My oldest is 12 and still needs a visual reminder for responsibilities. We had homemade chore charts, but just recently switched over to the Accountable Kids chart because it fits his needs at this age better. The chores have color coded stripes on the bottom and are different lengths to represent morning, afternoon, and evening. We have time limits on them - nothing is taken away if chores aren't done, but privileges are only earned with their completion.

[5LittleMonkeys]

 

With regards to the dinner situation, I have a few questions. When you say "sit and linger" does that mean you eat slowly? Or does that mean you all finish meals around the same time but you and DH sit and linger over dessert or wine or something? What's keeping the girls from starting on clean-up immediately after they finish, but before you and DH do? I think it's reasonable that anyone who wants to sit and linger should do so, but would then accept responsibility for any clearing or dishes that stayed to sit and linger with them. They can play once their chores are done, without worry. I'm missing a few details about your routine, but going off of what I read in the original post it seems like they're accepting of responsibility ... they just sometimes defer it for reasons outside of their control. Then, because it's not fun or important for them, it slips off of their radar entirely (resulting in the need for reminders from you). Maybe if they could begin clean-up right away when they "see" it needs to be done, the responsibility aspect will become more evident?I can see your point with this. The two oldest eat quickly and are excused while the rest of the family continues eating. We've tried having a "stay at the table until everyone is done eating" rule but my three youngest are excruciatingly slow eaters so dh and I use that time to chat. The two oldest do get into their own worlds up there in their rooms. Your words have made me realize that perhaps a simple "Everyone is finished" call on the intercom could be a courtesy I extend to them. I wouldn't actually be telling them to do the chore. It would still be up to them to come down at some point and do it.

 

ETA: We worked on Anticipation of Someone's Needs by focusing on one specific task (helping me bring in stuff from the car), and I'm pleased to share that all on his own -in very short time- did my boy start anticipating someone's needs in other areas of life. That one specific task was a catalyst -the Gateway!- so I definitely think focusing on one specific task can be a good stepping stone into fully owning whatever trait you aim to teach (Responsibility).

 

Anticipation of Someone's Needs...I'd like instill that in my dc regarding walking over trash on the floor twenty times without thinking to pick it up.:tongue_smilie:

[goldberry]

I am working on this with DD12. But I remember reading awhile back that going from doing things when told to doing them on their own responsibility is a pretty big development shift. In other words, I am expecting this to be a process that takes place over the next couple of years rather than something I just tell her "Now you need to start doing this on your own."

 

One thing I haven't implemented yet, but thought was a good idea, was an extra incentive for doing something without being asked. Not getting in trouble if they still do it WHEN they are asked, but something extra when they do it on their own.

[goldberry]

Anticipation of Someone's Needs...I'd like instill that in my dc regarding walking over trash on the floor twenty times without thinking to pick it up.:tongue_smilie:

 

Can I teach my husband that?:glare:

[5LittleMonkeys]

So, what I'm getting is that these ages may still need some type of reminders. I have told them to make reminders for themselves but they obviously aren't using them if they have, and I obviously haven't enforced their use.:glare:

 

We do take away privileges if I remind them and they still don't do it but I haven't established a consequence yet for not taking ownership of a responsibility. I'm not sure how to actually implement that. Perhaps, using the PM kitchen responsibilities as an example, if they don't complete the task by a certain time of the evening (after I've told them we are finished) they have privileges revoked. I don't know, that doesn't feel any different than saying, "Please take out the trash in the next 30 minutes, if it isn't done there will be a consequence." I feel like I'm just back to ensuring obedience.

 

Is this more an issue of character trait vs. a behavioral one? It feels like teaching ownership of responsibility should be different than the above example. Maybe I'm missing something or trying to hard.:tongue_smilie:

[5LittleMonkeys]

 

One thing I haven't implemented yet, but thought was a good idea, was an extra incentive for doing something without being asked. Not getting in trouble if they still do it WHEN they are asked, but something extra when they do it on their own.

 

Lightbulb! That is an excellent idea I hadn't even thought of! I like that much better than consequences. Like I said, consequences makes it feel too much like ensuring obedience.

[Lily_Grace]

 

Is this more an issue of character trait vs. a behavioral one? It feels like teaching ownership of responsibility should be different than the above example. Maybe I'm missing something or trying to hard.:tongue_smilie:

 

I think it is behavioral and developmental, if that makes sense. If you take my kid and put him in a leadership position or where he can assume charge, he will. In the house, though, he still looks to us for guidance. Anticipating needs is a slow change over the years that grows with their empathy skills and chances to lead. I know at age 12 my son is more scatterbrained than he was at 10 and needs handholding more. He needs things directly pointed out sometimes so that he can see the forest for the trees, so to speak.

 

Tonight I was at a friend's and I watched a group of 4 boys playing at the computer. One knocked over a soda that was on the ground. 3 of the boys started arguing about who had the soda/who kicked it...1 boy watched. They needed an adult to intervene and start them off: "You - pick up the can. You - go get a dry cloth to sop this up." Once they got on track they could figure out the rest of the steps on their own: move the cans, take turns wiping it up with a wet cloth, take the rags to the laundry..they were just too consumed with a minor detail to start fixing things. It's like that in lots of issues in their lives right now. As they have more practice they start to use those leadership skills in their daily life. It just takes a long time to get there after learning to listen to someone else all the time. It's part of why we do the chore charts, so that he isn't listening to a person but to a list. It's helping him to trust himself more.

[angela in ohio]

This is why we don't have chore charts and lists. We have a "see it - do it" rule. If you see something that needs done, you do it, or you face consequences. It teaches responsibility welll, but yes, we had to use consequences to start the ball rolling. We get frequent comments about how helpful and considerate our dc are (and questions about "our trick" :lol: from other parents,) so I think it has worked pretty well.

 

No, they won't just grow up into responsibility. Age helps, but it's not the primary ingredient. And just because you use consequences for forgetting her responsibilities to start with, it doesn't mean you will always have to.

 

I also give my dc power over certain areas as they get older. My dd does the laundry for the dc and the towels, sheets, etc. She can choose when and how to do it, as long as it is done. Same with middle dd and the dishes. She can wait a bit to empty the dishwasher if she is doing something else, because I know that she will get it done. They get the freedom to manage it as they wish as long as they keep up their end of the bargain.

 

I think you need obedience from a toddler and responsilbity in the teen years and on. In between those years is a long, slow process of less call for obedience and more call for responsibility. But unless you take steps to make that happen, it doesn't happen just because they get older. And you can't just do it all at once when they are 18 (or 16, or 8, or 12, or whatever.)

 

I can't see spending my time reminding teens of what they need to do. I could never keep up with that, because I get distracted. :D When they were younger, yes, there were sometimes reminders, when they were starting to learn to be responsible. But by now, it's "get it done or suffer the consequences." They know there will be no reminders, so they just do it. I can't remember the last time one of the older two didn't do what they needed to do. If they knew they would get a free reminder, I'm sure they would use that.

 

Practically, if they didn't come back down to clean the kitchen, I just wouldn't let them go upstairs until it was done. I would do that for a while until it was happen, and then I would let them try it again (going upstairs and coming back down.) The very first time they didn't come down - with no reminders - I would go back to them staying downstairs. I would be talking to them throughout the whole process, letting them know that I am sorry, but it is my job to teach them to be responsible. It's a natural consequence, and those will teach responsibility (that's how we learn to be responsible as adults - hopefully - if our parents never taught us, by the natural consequences we face.) They are absolutely old enough to be able to remember that.

Edited October 1, 2011 by angela in ohio

[Pamela H in Texas]

What we do, even with the littles, is to help the children come up with solutions to situations like these.

 

So the littles have picture schedules. They can't very well write their own so I made it for them. Well, in the morning, it is THEIR responsibility to work through their pictures. This means my four year old is asking me for his medication. I also have been working with him to remember that he takes 1 on MWF and 1½ on THSS. Obviously, I will make sure a four year old takes his medication, but it is good for him to try to take responsibility for it in the inbetween. And he is the first one done with his chart every day though he has the most on his.

 

For my big kids, it was a matter of telling them what *I* needed (kitchen clean at a certain time) and insisting they find a solution. So in your situation, i would say, "okay, I think it is fine for y'all to go upstairs but I don't want to have to call you back down to clean up the kitchen. Can y'all come up with a few ways you can remember to come down?" Then give them the opportunity to brainstorm, choose the ideas to try, and to try a couple ideas til one works.

 

I use to-do lists. I also have alarms on my phone for certain things. I email myself sometimes. I have a big calendar up on the wall. I don't simply just do what needs to be done. I have skills and tools to help me.

 

I would help bridge the gap from compliance to responsibility rather than just expecting it without teaching them how.

[myfunnybunch]

I think it's age-normal. They're growing up and they're not. I agree that this is both developmental and behavioral.

 

Whether you leave it to them to figure out how they'll handle their responsibilities or implement a system of consequences or have a "chores-first, then freedoms" rule, be consistent. If you have consistent expectations and follow through on teaching them, they will eventually take on those responsibilities. With my dd, it started to happen really consistently around age 15; I remember my mom remarking that she rarely had to remind me to do my chores when I was about that age too.

 

Cat

[Lady Florida.]

An example: Dd13 and dd12 are responsible for clearing the table and cleaning up the kitchen after dinner each night. They always finish eating dinner before the rest of us and as dh and I like to linger at the table to chat, we excuse them and they go upstairs. They KNOW they have to do the kitchen, have been doing it for two years, yet every. single. night. I have to call them back down to do it. I have, on occasion, not called them down to see if they will come down on their own after a reasonable time and get it done.

 

It's difficult for me as an adult to clean the kitchen "later", so I'm not surprised that it's hard for them either. They are done eating, but since you and dh are lingering, they have to put off their chore until later, when they could be relaxing. Could you, instead of excusing them, have them clean all but yours and dh's dishes while you and he sit and linger? And if they leave the kitchen area, could you let them know you're done instead of expecting them to keep checking? Or you could have them clean all but your and his plates, and you or he clean those? It just seems unfair to linger and cause them to have to clean up later than they would have liked to. Honestly, when I clean the kitchen, I don't allow lingering because I don't want to be cleaning it later in the evening. My rule is "Eat and get out of the kitchen, or finish cleaning it yourself".

 

I know that I could set consequences for not "remembering" and train them to do this but I know I would be just training them for this one specific task. It wouldn't instill in them the true sense of responsibility that I want them to have. So, I have to ask myself if what I'm expecting is age or developmentally appropriate. I know all dc gain maturity at different ages but are my dc even in the ballpark as far as being of the ages that I should be expecting more responsibility instead of just obedience?

I understand you wanting them to do things without being told. We want ds to mow the lawn without being told, but it's just not happening. Some people need reminders, regardless of their age and maturity level. If no one needed to remember what has to be done there would be no need for Flylady, Organizedhome.com, the Home Routines app, or anything else that gives us reminders of what tasks to do throughout the day. Could you make a reminder list for her? She would be responsible for checking the list, so you wouldn't have to tell her what to do, but at least she'd have a checklist. I don't see why it's okay for adults to have lists of their routines and not for kids. Teach her to use a list to her advantage.

[SunD]

Some people need reminders, regardless of their age and maturity level. If no one needed to remember what has to be done there would be no need for Flylady, Organizedhome.com, the Home Routines app, or anything else that gives us reminders of what tasks to do throughout the day.

 

I am one of them. I'm an adult, a mom ... I know I have responsibilities and I try hard to make sure things get done in a timely manner. But I don't have the greatest memory. I need reminders to get a start. Nobody reminds me anymore, so the only thing that's worked is to get into a routine. Eat dinner, clean up immediately. If I wander off and get engrossed in something else, I am not going to remember to clean up the kitchen, maybe not even if I walk through it ... only if I "see" the mess and something clicks in my brain to remind me.

 

So I have a routine, and a checklist of the parts of my routine, in case I get off track. Your "dinner is over" announcement might be a good memory jogger, or maybe there's a way to make it part of their routine, like letting them do most of it immediately and then clearing your own plates when you're done later. It might be easier to assign it as "everyone clears their own plate and does one more thing that doesn't depend on others being finished", like washing pots or wiping counters.

 

I know I drove my mom crazy. I didn't mean to. I just genuinely don't remember, and no amount of consequences would have "made" me remember. Natural consequences in the real world have driven me to create routines and checklists, but I think doing that on your own is really a maturity issue.

Edited October 2, 2011 by SunD

[5LittleMonkeys]

Really good advice everyone. Thank you!

 

Okay, I read all of the responses and then talked to dh. I think we're going to go at this two-fold. I'm kind of at a point in my parenthood that I'm tired of consequences and loss of privileges for everything. With 5 dc it sometimes feels like I'm running a prison ward or something. Their are days that it's just way to much negative floating around, especially when they've all had to face a consequence at the same time. So, I'd really like to put a positive spin on this. So, first I'm going to put a dry erase board in their room and they will list all of their daily chores and responsibilities on it with times each has to be completed by if applicable. There will be another board on the pantry door in the kitchen with all of the chores\responsibilities listed. Once they complete a chore they have to check it off in the kitchen. That way I can check throughout the day to make sure they are being done and offer a reminder if they haven't done it in time. At the end of the day they will get a point for every item done without my reminders. If they had to have a reminder, so be it, no harm no foul, I'll give them a few words about doing better the next day.

 

So, here is where I get stuck. I don't mind assigning a monetary value to each point so that they can buy things that they have on their Amazon wishlists, treats for their rats, computer\video games...but what is a fair amount for each point? A dollar seems like too much considering they have quite a few chores and responsibilities. Between the two of them I could end up paying out 20 bucks a day! We've never done an allowance although they do have special chores they can do to get paid but I assign an amount of money for those based on the difficulty of the job. Would .10 per point seem like a good amount? They could earn up to 1.00 a day, depending on the day. Does that seem fair or should it be more?