Anyone else find the killing of Awlaki disturbing in precedent?

[NanceXToo]

It doesn't bother me. The process was open and transparent. We didn't seek to kill this guy in private; we didn't poison him with radiation and then deny involvement, His dad went to court to get the "kill order" removed and lost.

 

He wasn't within the criminal jurisdiction of the United States and Yemen wasn't going to extradite him. In the meantime, he had ordered two attacks on American soil (or at least was involved in the attacks) and was actively recruiting more terrorists. What if the US passed up the opportunity to kill him and one of his recruits bombed the Mall of America at Christmas time???

 

We didn't sneak into Yemen, but coordinated with their intelligence forces., This wasn't a typical assassination, but a legitimate military strike.

 

I'm not a big fan of the death penalty, but this doesn't bother me. I prefer targeted strikes to collateral damage. We got an enemy military leader and no civilians got hurt. It's a win in my book.

 

:iagree:

[unsinkable]

I am actually not even supposed to post on this thread (as pr. dh). He is right, but sometimes I don't care. I (and my fellow Muslims) have had our phones tapped (listened in on) and our children know to now mention names in public when talking politics or current events. Yes, I cannot freely google on my computer or I'd be dead silly.

 

I once owned a photo a Muslim Scandinavian convert had mailed me of her first-born son being held by a visiting sheikh. Well, 15 years down that road and that sheikh was black-listed in the US where we by then were residing and dh asked me to find the picture and throw it away... For clarification, then this sheikh was travelling via Scandinavia, had an overnight and stayed at my friend's house en route to the US. He was not black-listed at the time, but I think he came with opinions a la Awlaki whilst residing here. Anyways, point of the anecdote was that I had to get rid of a picture I had gotten in the mail of my friend's baby because this person was in it!

 

Who would kill you?

 

I'm not being silly. I legitmately want to know.

 

You've posted links to articles about your DD in major US newspapers. People know who you are. How many of your American friends had their property seized? How many were killed because of google searches?

[Osmosis Mom]

I'd be dead silly....there is no comma in that sentence. It meant I'd be naive. I am not expecting to get killed, silly. I certainly don't hope so! But any Muslim can get their lives wrecked at any point in time. It only takes a blow of a rumor, an arrest (who cares if you are free the next day, week or month). People have gotten branded, not able to get jobs after (after losing their business and livelihood), never gotten an excuse for their investigations that were unwarranted. I know families this happened to. Innocent people who eventually moved abroad and to another state after having not gotten a job after losing their business and contacts.

 

So, to me, it is enough that I am Muslim and for some reason (a suspicious WTM'er or someone) call in, people come check my computer and find links to terrorist articles. Gosh, people have gotten arrested and held for less than that.They might not shoot me in the head, but they could kill my livelihood. I am not sitting in a corner, that is correct, so apparently then I am not that scared, right. I am not living in a country like Syria, now am I?? I am half-Syrian and Syrians are some of the most paranoid people you could now (and rightly so).

[burleygirl]

Not only did George W. Bush declare war on terrorism after 9/11 he specifically declared war on Al Qaeda and that American terrorist, Anwar al-Awlaki, was a lead operative in Al Qaeda. Unfortunately, our country is at war and war is not pretty. So as a terrorist I guess he should be treated differently from Osama Bin-Laden because he's an American terrorist although both want to destroy Americans.

[seraphina]

Should she have to be afraid because she is Muslim? How many of us have to worry about how we will be viewed because of our religion? Not many I think. Look back on 9-11 of this year a suburban housewife was detained for 6 hours because of her ethnicity, not because of anything she did. This world post 9-11 is insane and people are okay with it. That frightens me.

 

Leaving thread now, I don't want to say anything that might get me in trouble around here.

[unsinkable]

I'd be dead silly....there is no comma in that sentence. It meant I'd be naive. I am not expecting to get killed, silly. I certainly don't hope so! But any Muslim can get their lives wrecked at any point in time. It only takes a blow of a rumor, an arrest (who cares if you are free the next day, week or month). People have gotten branded, not able to get jobs after (after losing their business and livelihood), never gotten an excuse for their investigations that were unwarranted. I know families this happened to. Innocent people who eventually moved abroad and to another state after having not gotten a job after losing their business and contacts.

 

So, to me, it is enough that I am Muslim and for some reason (a suspicious WTM'er or someone) call in, people come check my computer and find links to terrorist articles. Gosh, people have gotten arrested and held for less than that.They might not shoot me in the head, but they could kill my livelihood. I am not sitting in a corner, that is correct, so apparently then I am not that scared, right. I am not living in a country like Syria, now am I?? I am half-Syrian and Syrians are some of the most paranoid people you could now (and rightly so).

 

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I'd never heard the expression "dead silly" before so I assumed you were referring to me as silly.

 

Oh, left out the most important part: I am glad you are not expecting to be killed, either! I am sorry for your other fears, however. :grouphug:

Edited October 2, 2011 by unsinkable

[unsinkable]

Should she have to be afraid because she is Muslim? How many of us have to worry about how we will be viewed because of our religion? Not many I think. Look back on 9-11 of this year a suburban housewife was detained for 6 hours because of her ethnicity, not because of anything she did. This world post 9-11 is insane and people are okay with it. That frightens me.

 

Leaving thread now, I don't want to say anything that might get me in trouble around here.

 

Ummm...bye?

[tntgoodwin]

Not only did George W. Bush declare war on terrorism after 9/11 he specifically declared war on Al Qaeda and that American terrorist, Anwar al-Awlaki, was a lead operative in Al Qaeda. Unfortunately, our country is at war and war is not pretty. So as a terrorist I guess he should be treated differently from Osama Bin-Laden because he's an American terrorist although both want to destroy Americans.

 

A. The President has the same authority to declare war that my couch has. That is, none at all.

 

B. There wasn't enough evidence to indict him as a terrorist in the US.

[Osmosis Mom]

nm

Edited October 2, 2011 by Osmosis Mom

[unsinkable]

You probably never heard of that expression because it doesn't exist!!!! Have no clue why I wrote it but perhaps it was my sub conscience talking there??!

 

Anyways, just to clarify something else. When I show links about my kids etc. then it is not because I love to show off my kids but because I am trying to break down barriers and make a difference. I am a proud parent, but I am more than that aware of fear and of stereotypes.

 

My point about the article was that since you & your family are in the public eye (even in that small way) many of us would notice & be concerned if something happened.

[Osmosis Mom]

My point about the article was that since you & your family are in the public eye (even in that small way) many of us would notice & be concerned if something happened.

 

Hmmm. Honestly? I don't think many would go beyond care *if* I disappeared or was in prison. I think most would assume there would be some guilt and/or be scared to get involved. And why not? read 1984, aren't we all a bit afraid/suspicious of eachother?

[Laurie4b]

Could someone point me to where Awlaki has become a terrorist? I have not followed the news and was stunned to hear a couple of years ago that he now was a terrorist.

 

As far as I understand it (and I barely follow the news, so bear with me as you get all excited), then he spoke out about the US gov. but I have not heard anything beyond that. I know that millions of Muslims listen to his wonderful non-political audio sessions that are historically interesting and spiritually moving.

 

I am just curious if he was being used as a scapegoat because he was anti-US -which is not the same as wanting to kill US citizens or eradicate the country.

 

Someone please show me some links where Awlaki talks, not where he is being accused of having said this or that. I can't search on my own computer (might bring me to sites that would not look good for me in case somebody ceases my laptop, ifkwim).

 

What I have read is that there *was* a lot of stuff posted on Utube but that it was taken down because of likelihood to incite violence. So I don't think that the original material is easily available. And I totally understand why you would not want to go around looking for it and yet you would like to see the evidence yourself before you totally change your opinion of someone. The family of the other American who was with him tried an intervention http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/09/30/family-jihadist-blogger-tried-intervention-before-left-for-yemen/ I don't know if that will help at all. Khan wasn't a target, but was in the vehicle.

 

ETA: don't know if there is enough in here for you to hear because it is in Arabic http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6512422n&tag=re1.channel

Edited October 2, 2011 by Laurie4b

[burleygirl]

A. The President has the same authority to declare war that my couch has. That is, none at all.

 

B. There wasn't enough evidence to indict him as a terrorist in the US.

 

 

Well, I do understand that it is Congress who declares war. My point is I don't think during war we have time to put enemies on trial.

[Mrs Mungo]

Due process doesn't always mean the same thing in all cases.

 

News story from today:

http://m.cbsnews.com/storysynopsis.rbml?feed_id=0&catid=20114273&videofeed=36

[FairyMom]

Not only do I find the lack of due process disturbing, the fact that most people don't seem to care sickens me. I have just about given up hope in Americans...I don't know what to do anymore.

 

To execute a US citizen, without due process, outside a declared warzone, is a terrible precedent. I don't like the idea of one person being judge, jury, and executioner. If you want to throw out the Constitution, at least have the guts to say so. A CITIZEN SHALL NOT BE DENIED DUE PROCESS, even an alleged terrorist.

 

I envision a day where Christians are considered enemies of the government, and we will be hunted down and killed without due process. Do you not see how the Constitution protects us?

 

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

 

P.S. Don't even start to pull some "sit back and let the big boys do what they have to do" kind of BS with me.

 

It doesn't matter what he did or said, it only matters what our all-knowing, benevolent government claims he did or said. Of course, he was denied a trial, since it was believed that they wouldn't be able to convict due to a lack of evidence. That's okay, though, he has been tried in the court of public opinion, and by the Federal government. Nothing to worry about citizen, move along.

 

 

War is Peace

Freedom is Slavery

Ignorance is Strength

 

A. The President has the same authority to declare war that my couch has. That is, none at all.

 

B. There wasn't enough evidence to indict him as a terrorist in the US.

 

:iagree: Well said.

[Starr]

You probably never heard of that expression because it doesn't exist!!!! Have no clue why I wrote it but perhaps it was my sub conscience talking there??!

 

Anyways, just to clarify something else. When I show links about my kids etc. then it is not because I love to show off my kids but because I am trying to break down barriers and make a difference. I am a proud parent, but I am more than that aware of fear and of stereotypes.

 

 

We do use the expression, dead wrong. Dead silly isn't that different. :)

[Kate in Arabia]

Could someone point me to where Awlaki has become a terrorist? I have not followed the news and was stunned to hear a couple of years ago that he now was a terrorist.

 

As far as I understand it (and I barely follow the news, so bear with me as you get all excited), then he spoke out about the US gov. but I have not heard anything beyond that. I know that millions of Muslims listen to his wonderful non-political audio sessions that are historically interesting and spiritually moving.

 

In this interview with al-Jazeera, he states that the general US public is a legitimate target for attack; that bombing a commercial airliner is fine (although a military one is preferred); because the US is a democracy all its citizens can be held accountable for its government's actions.

 

And in this clip, also from al-Jazeera, you can hear and see him say "Don't consult with anybody in the killing of Americans. Fighting the devil doesn't require consultation or prayers seeking divine guidance, they are the party of the devils." Edited to add: I listened to the beginning of the clip again; he's saying (in Arabic), "Don't consult anyone when killing Americans. Fighting the devil doesn't require a fatwa, doesn't require consultation, doesn't require istikhara (a form of prayer when seeking Allah's guidance in any issue). They are the Party of the Devil (Hizb ash-Shaytaan)."

I don't know what happened to him. I have heard some of his earlier lectures, and there was nothing of this extremism. However, given what he turned into, I want nothing to do with him or any lecture he has ever given. To me, his later words and actions have negated any good he may have given in the beginning.

 

jmo

Edited October 2, 2011 by Kate in Arabia

[ChristineW]

He gave English interviews to the BBC and Al-Jezeera encouraging Muslims to kill Westerners. He was an identified leader of Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. The Yemenis gave us permission to kill him but refused to extradite. We couldn't convict him for the massacre in Fort Hood or the attempts in Times Square and Detroit because he wasn't in our jurisdiction. It had nothing to do with the lack of evidence. They had plenty.

 

BTW, in the wake of 9/11, Congress authorized the use of lethal force against members of Al Qaeda. It did not specify which countries. The executive branch carried out a mission approved by Congress and tacitly approved of by the Supreme Court (refused to rule calling it a political question). Three branches of government weighing in on the matter is not a rogue president murdering enemies. I respect those who raise Constitutional questions. I just think that they are wrong.

 

Christine

[asta]

I'm Catholic and would raise red flags were I to seek out terrorist websites for information. Want to know why? Because it isn't easy to find them! From everything I've ever seen in the press, intelligence agencies work hard to find terrorist chat groups and websites that are fronts for "real"'info. (eg: a person usually has a vague idea of where to start looking).

 

I'm not talking about YouTube channels, BTW.

 

I'd NEVER go wandering through the web for that kind of stuff - like someone else said, Al Jazeera pretty much covers the basics of what most people are looking for.

 

When the stated aim is to kill Westerners, those who are doing so are not stopping to check the religious preferences of everyone on the plane or in the building before blowing it up. If it were me, I would be a heck of a lot more vocal about THAT then the perception that I *might* be discriminated against.

 

 

a

[azmomx3]

yes

[Osmosis Mom]

Kate, I am stunned. I did not press on the links, but your word is enough. Not sure where he took such a crooked turn. Perhaps he should have just committed suicide since he was condemning himself!

 

Asta, how hard is it to get terrorist information? Some young man from a regular subdivision and from the local uni. here in the Boston area was just arrested this week for wanting to bomb this and that place, do harm to US soldiers (and thinking he was already doing so) and for buying real weapons. Apparently the only contact he had throughout this whole process (since April?) was undercover agents. So basically (from what I heard on the news the other day), they met with him, exchanged money for weapons and bombs/materials etc. They were not witnesses, but participants. Where do we draw that line? Anyways, I'll be really looking forward to learning more about this case, because he looks like a nutcase but came right from our community in Boston, so I want to know if he was psychologically sick, temporary insane due to not finding work, or if he was thinking. This guy was 26 and some nobody.

[asta]

Kate, I am stunned. I did not press on the links, but your word is enough. Not sure where he took such a crooked turn. Perhaps he should have just committed suicide since he was condemning himself!

 

Asta, how hard is it to get terrorist information? Some young man from a regular subdivision and from the local uni. here in the Boston area was just arrested this week for wanting to bomb this and that place, do harm to US soldiers (and thinking he was already doing so) and for buying real weapons. Apparently the only contact he had throughout this whole process (since April?) was undercover agents. So basically (from what I heard on the news the other day), they met with him, exchanged money for weapons and bombs/materials etc. They were not witnesses, but participants. Where do we draw that line? Anyways, I'll be really looking forward to learning more about this case, because he looks like a nutcase but came right from our community in Boston, so I want to know if he was psychologically sick, temporary insane due to not finding work, or if he was thinking. This guy was 26 and some nobody.

 

Couldn't tell you.

 

I would imagine about as easily as it is to get illicit drugs.

 

 

I am actually not even supposed to post on this thread (as pr. dh). He is right, but sometimes I don't care. I (and my fellow Muslims) have had our phones tapped (listened in on) and our children know to now mention names in public when talking politics or current events. Yes, I cannot freely google on my computer or I'd be dead silly.

 

I once owned a photo a Muslim Scandinavian convert had mailed me of her first-born son being held by a visiting sheikh. Well, 15 years down that road and that sheikh was black-listed in the US where we by then were residing and dh asked me to find the picture and throw it away... For clarification, then this sheikh was travelling via Scandinavia, had an overnight and stayed at my friend's house en route to the US. He was not black-listed at the time, but I think he came with opinions a la Awlaki whilst residing here. Anyways, point of the anecdote was that I had to get rid of a picture I had gotten in the mail of my friend's baby because this person was in it!

 

My religion does not have a prohibition against defying my husband. If it did, I would be very concerned about pursuing things such as this on an open forum.

 

 

asta

[Osmosis Mom]

Asta, Seriously, you are having some cranky weekend! Dh is my friend, not my master.

 

Geez. It seems as if we are standing on two different planets and you only want to find faults.

 

 

Whatever, girl. Find yourself some other meat to hunt down and peck at.

[Amirah]

I'd be dead silly....there is no comma in that sentence. It meant I'd be naive. I am not expecting to get killed, silly. I certainly don't hope so! But any Muslim can get their lives wrecked at any point in time. It only takes a blow of a rumor, an arrest (who cares if you are free the next day, week or month). People have gotten branded, not able to get jobs after (after losing their business and livelihood), never gotten an excuse for their investigations that were unwarranted. I know families this happened to. Innocent people who eventually moved abroad and to another state after having not gotten a job after losing their business and contacts.

 

So, to me, it is enough that I am Muslim and for some reason (a suspicious WTM'er or someone) call in, people come check my computer and find links to terrorist articles. Gosh, people have gotten arrested and held for less than that.They might not shoot me in the head, but they could kill my livelihood. I am not sitting in a corner, that is correct, so apparently then I am not that scared, right. I am not living in a country like Syria, now am I?? I am half-Syrian and Syrians are some of the most paranoid people you could now (and rightly so).

 

 

i know ppl this has happened too as well. i am american but live i canada and even here i am careful. i remember someone sent me a link to a islamic forum that turned out to be crazy and i freaked out because i know what happens. i dont even think i will take my computer with me if i travel to the states because i wear niqab and that already causes enough problems

[Margo out of lurking]

As a prior Military Intelligence soldier, and a student getting her degree in Intelligence Studies, I can say with confidence that you are absolutely right.

 

And I would like to remind people that you are enjoying a free country BECAUSE of these activities.

 

The people who want to treat our enemies like pets and take them out to tea and give them a "talking too" usually have NO. IDEA. what war is about and what goes on behind enemy lines. Stop assuming that these people are rational adults, capable of negotiating peace and able to be reformed. They are not.

 

You just sit back and enjoy the fruits of secret labor and leave the how's and why's to the big boys.

 

 

:hurray::hurray::hurray:

 

:patriot:One of the best-ever posts on these boards.:patriot:

[bbkaren]

It is remarkable to me to find so many supposedly-enlightened people taking the Blue Pill on a daily basis.

[Mrs Mungo]

It is remarkable to me to find so many supposedly-enlightened people taking the Blue Pill on a daily basis.

 

You live safely and happily ensconced within US borders, yes? Can you even name 10 terrorists? Have you known anyone who has died due to fighting terrorist groups between 9/12/01 and now? So, are you referring to yourself here?

[pqr]

It is remarkable to me to find so many supposedly-enlightened people taking the Blue Pill on a daily basis.

 

 

He was an admitted traitor, his words indicate that he would have been happy to KILL YOU.

 

Tell me again who is taking a "blue pill."

[bbkaren]

He was an admitted traitor, his words indicate that he would have been happy to KILL YOU.

 

Tell me again who is taking a "blue pill."

 

NOT the point, what HE would've done.

 

The point is what our GOV'T has taken upon itself to do, and the precedent that has been set.

 

This whole thread isn't about what some dirtbag terrorist wanted to do, or "would have done". It's about what our government did in fact do, and what it may mean to the rest of us one day.

[pqr]

NOT the point, what HE would've done.

 

The point is what our GOV'T has taken upon itself to do, and the precedent that has been set.

 

This whole thread isn't about what some dirtbag terrorist wanted to do, or "would have done". It's about what our government did in fact do, and what it may mean to the rest of us one day.

 

So just what would YOU have done? Walked over there with a polite request to please stop advocating the murder of innocents? Perhaps send him a warrant in the mail like a traffic ticket with a date to appear in court.

 

Taking out terrorists who are beyond the reach of our legal system and who present a clear threat to this nation IS what I expect our government to do.

 

When we caught a traitor in the person of the "American Taliban" we did try him and gave him a pathetically short sentence but that was not an option in this case.

[Mrs Mungo]

NOT the point, what HE would've done.

 

The point is what our GOV'T has taken upon itself to do, and the precedent that has been set.

 

This whole thread isn't about what some dirtbag terrorist wanted to do, or "would have done". It's about what our government did in fact do, and what it may mean to the rest of us one day.

 

It isn't about what he "would have done," it is about what he DID. He was actively involved in terrorist plots against the US, some of which DID result in dead US citizens. The government went through a process, it involved all three branches of government, to include the Supreme Court.

 

I a not celebrating, but neither am I afraid that my husband's veteran status or my support of this or that group is going to make me a target. That is an absurd leap in logic.

Edited October 2, 2011 by Mrs Mungo

[pqr]

It isn't about what he "would have done," it is about what he DID. He was actively involved in terrorist plots against the US, some of which DID result in dead US citizens. The government went through a process, it involved all three branches of government, to include the Supreme Court.

 

 

Exactly!

[bbkaren]

So just what would YOU have done? Walked over there with a polite request to please stop advocating the murder of innocents? Perhaps send him a warrant in the mail like a traffic ticket with a date to appear in court...

 

We have to be bound by our Constitution. For all of OUR sakes, not his.

 

But, whatever - obviously the views on this precedent are polarized.

 

When one day it's turned against someone you agree with, you'll see things differently.

[Mrs Mungo]

We have to be bound by our Constitution. For all of OUR sakes, not his.

 

Again, SCOTUS serve as the interpreters ofthe Constitution, did you read about this case and the process involved?

 

But, whatever - obviously the views on this precedent are polarized.

 

When one day it's turned against someone you agree with, you'll see things differently.

 

Agree with? I don't agree with funding and assisting with killing random US citizens, no matter what rhetoric I may believe or political beliefs I may hold. This is not about speech, it is about specific *actions*.

[tntgoodwin]

You live safely and happily ensconced within US borders, yes? Can you even name 10 terrorists? Have you known anyone who has died due to fighting terrorist groups between 9/12/01 and now? So, are you referring to yourself here?

 

I do currently, yes. I can be sent overseas at the whim of Uncle Sam though.

I can name 10 terrorists, plus many more.

And I know people who have died fighting these terrorist groups.

 

That doesn't mean I am okay with this situation. And there are a lot of people who agree with me, including military members. Including people in Military Intelligence. Including people directly involved in these types of drone strikes.

[pqr]

We have to be bound by our Constitution. For all of OUR sakes, not his.

 

.

 

 

I hold as strict an interpretation of our Constitution as anyone I know. I understand the concern that there is creep in the role of the Federal Government, but this case does NOT violate any Constitutional Tenet that I see.

[Mrs Mungo]

I do currently, yes. I can be sent overseas at the whim of Uncle Sam though.

I can name 10 terrorists, plus many more.

And I know people who have died fighting these terrorist groups.

 

That doesn't mean I am okay with this situation. And there are a lot of people who agree with me, including military members. Including people in Military Intelligence. Including people directly involved in these types of drone strikes.

 

Did you read about the process? Do you honestly believe it is only one step from killing labor leaders or members of the NRA?

[ChocolateReignRemix]

So just what would YOU have done? Walked over there with a polite request to please stop advocating the murder of innocents? Perhaps send him a warrant in the mail like a traffic ticket with a date to appear in court.

 

Taking out terrorists who are beyond the reach of our legal system and who present a clear threat to this nation IS what I expect our government to do.

 

When we caught a traitor in the person of the "American Taliban" we did try him and gave him a pathetically short sentence but that was not an option in this case.

 

Exactly.

The part of your quote that I bolded is what baffles me the most when some try to argue against this action. If our government was dropping Hellfire missiles on those within our own borders, or even within the borders of nations which fully cooperate us, then I could see the concern. How can a reasonable person expect us to handle a person like this any other way? Is this really any different than shooting a suspect who resists arrest?

[Mrs Mungo]

Is this really any different than shooting a suspect who resists arrest?

 

Resisting arrest while shooting at cops with a bomb strapped to them in a city. Someone *actively involved* with killing.

[asta]

It is remarkable to me to find so many supposedly-enlightened people taking the Blue Pill on a daily basis.

 

The Matrix

 

written by Andy Wachowski & Larry Wachowski

 

Morpheus: I imagine that right now you're feeling a bit like Alice. Tumbling down the rabbit hole?

Neo: You could say that.

Morpheus: I can see it in your eyes. You have the look of a man who accepts what he sees because he's expecting to wake up. Ironically, this is not far from the truth. Do you believe in fate, Neo?

Neo: No.

Morpheus: Why not?

Neo: 'Cause I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life.

Morpheus: I know exactly what you mean. Let me tell you why you're here. You're here because you know something. What you know, you can't explain. But you feel it. You felt it your entire life. That there's something wrong with the world. You don't know what it is, but it's there. Like a splinter in your mind -- driving you mad. It is this feeling that has brought you to me. Do you know what I'm talking about?

Neo: The Matrix?

Morpheus: Do you want to know what it is?

(Neo nods his head.)

Morpheus: The Matrix is everywhere, it is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window, or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work, or when go to church or when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.

Neo: What truth?

Morpheus: That you are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else, you were born into bondage, born inside a prison that you cannot smell, taste, or touch. A prison for your mind. (long pause, sighs) Unfortunately, no one can be told what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself. This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back.

(In his left hand, Morpheus shows a blue pill.)

Morpheus: You take the blue pill and the story ends. You wake in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. (a red pill is shown in his other hand) You take the red pill and you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes. (Long pause; Neo begins to reach for the red pill) Remember -- all I am offering is the truth, nothing more.

(Neo takes the red pill and swallows it with a glass of water)

 

It's a daily pill? I thought we were just all unwitting alien food unless we took the red pill.

 

Maybe I'm confusing myself. What color was the pill in Valley of the Dolls? No, wait, those were just downers. Stepford Wives! Every time the bell rings, take your pill!

 

Yes, I'm being sarcastic on purpose.

 

 

a

[FO4UR]

This is not what made this country great. :angry: I live in a free country because of the guarantees of The Constitution. Not because of "secret labor" where guys wearing dark clothing skulk around killing people they have identified as a threat.

 

 

 

 

There is this cute little book I read to my 8yo last spring...George Washington, Spymaster.

 

Evidently, there has been secret labor from the birth of our Nation...in fact, one could argue that secret labor *birthed* our Nation. It's no surprise that secret labor is needed to sustain it's life.

 

 

 

The penalty for treason throughout our history has been death.

 

 

Good point.

 

I guess we could argue if he was a terrorist or a traitor, but I think the end result must be the same either way.

 

I, personally, am thankful to our military for keeping the USA a little safer. No, I'm not bothered that a known terrorist was killed. No, I don't fear that this sets precedent for targeting innocent citizens.

[bbkaren]

It's a daily pill? I thought we were just all unwitting alien food unless we took the red pill.

 

Maybe I'm confusing myself. What color was the pill in Valley of the Dolls? No, wait, those were just downers. Stepford Wives! Every time the bell rings, take your pill!

 

Yes, I'm being sarcastic on purpose.

 

 

a

 

Of course there's this one as well...;)

 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

:001_huh:

Resisting arrest while shooting at cops with a bomb strapped to them in a city. Someone *actively involved* with killing.

 

You are missing my point (we agree btw).

If the police cannot safely effect an arrest, then there is the possibility the suspect will be shot/killed.

In this case, we cannot safely effect an arrest, so we fall back to plan B - shoot/kill.

 

There really isn't a significant difference, and I simply do not understand the moral outrage some are working up over this.

[Mrs Mungo]

:001_huh:

 

You are missing my point (we agree btw).

If the police cannot safely effect an arrest, then there is the possibility the suspect will be shot/killed.

In this case, we cannot safely effect an arrest, so we fall back to plan B - shoot/kill.

 

I was agreeing with and emphasizing the point. :)

[unsinkable]

I haven't taken my pill today.

 

I am too full from my daily ration of soylent green.

 

Burp

[Cheryl in NM]

NOT the point, what HE would've done.

 

The point is what our GOV'T has taken upon itself to do, and the precedent that has been set.

 

This whole thread isn't about what some dirtbag terrorist wanted to do, or "would have done". It's about what our government did in fact do, and what it may mean to the rest of us one day.

 

Um, NO. In America the GOVERNMENT IS the PEOPLE. You, effectively, YOU killed this traitorous terrorist. So did I and I'm glad; not celebrating, but glad. It is a necessity in war. He wanted to kill ordinary citizens and put us on the same level as the military and government workers.

 

Thank you to my military!

[asta]

Um, NO. In America the GOVERNMENT IS the PEOPLE. You, effectively, YOU killed this traitorous terrorist. So did I and I'm glad; not celebrating, but glad. It is a necessity in war. He wanted to kill ordinary citizens and put us on the same level as the military and government workers.

 

Thank you to my military!

 

It's such a sobering thing to internalize, isn't it?

 

I mean, people all over the world are clamoring to get to our shores, to get US citizenship... and yet those of us who have it quite often forget that our government is, indeed, a Republic.

 

If we perceive there to be an enemy in "the government", it is us - because it IS us - as you have said.

 

This is why I have never understood "us vs them" arguments vis a vis "the government".

 

 

 

a

[lionfamily1999]

The penalty for treason throughout our history has been death. During the American Revolutionary War, if Benedict Arnold had been captured, i'm quite sure he would have been tried, found guilty and sentenced to death for treason. How is Al-Awlaki any different? He was killed as part of a war against America because he was actively fighting against the U.S.

He wasn't captured or tried. That's how it's different.

So just what would YOU have done? Walked over there with a polite request to please stop advocating the murder of innocents? Perhaps send him a warrant in the mail like a traffic ticket with a date to appear in court.

 

Taking out terrorists who are beyond the reach of our legal system and who present a clear threat to this nation IS what I expect our government to do.

 

When we caught a traitor in the person of the "American Taliban" we did try him and gave him a pathetically short sentence but that was not an option in this case.

Why wasn't it an option (sincere question)? We went into Bin Laden's house and shot him while he was trying to evade arrest. Why didn't we do the same thing here?

Exactly.

The part of your quote that I bolded is what baffles me the most when some try to argue against this action. If our government was dropping Hellfire missiles on those within our own borders, or even within the borders of nations which fully cooperate us, then I could see the concern. How can a reasonable person expect us to handle a person like this any other way? Is this really any different than shooting a suspect who resists arrest?

Yes, because someone that resists arrest has been given the option not to resist. I know it sounds silly, but even a drug dealer with tons of bucks may decide, after having murdered rival gang members and proven himself a menace to society and a danger, that life under arrest is a superior choice to dead. The choice wasn't there, from what I understand. Even Osama got a chance, he chose to run.

 

I haven't taken my pill today.

 

I am too full from my daily ration of soylent green.

 

Burp

:lol: :lurk5: I prefer it in tasty nugget form, by the bucket :D

[Mrs Mungo]

He wasn't captured or tried. That's how it's different.

 

Look up Ex Parte Quirin. "Citizenship in the United States of an enemy belligerent does not relieve him from the consequences." This was applied against lawful and unlawful combatants who were US citizens during WW2. Being subject to attack was one of those consequences.

 

Why wasn't it an option (sincere question)? We went into Bin Laden's house and shot him while he was trying to evade arrest. Why didn't we do the same thing here?

Yes, because someone that resists arrest has been given the option not to resist. I know it sounds silly, but even a drug dealer with tons of bucks may decide, after having murdered rival gang members and proven himself a menace to society and a danger, that life under arrest is a superior choice to dead. The choice wasn't there, from what I understand. Even Osama got a chance, he chose to run.

 

He was given the option of returning to the US for trial and refused. An operation in Pakistan against a Saudi is WAY different than an operation in Yemen against a Yemeni citizen.

 

Eta: If we had good options for capturing him, then yes, he would have been tried. But, because he made himself a military target? This is no different than anyone else killed by the military with bombs or drones.

Edited October 5, 2011 by Mrs Mungo

[lionfamily1999]

Look up Ex Parte Quirin. "Citizenship in the United States of an enemy belligerent does not relieve him from the consequences." This was applied against lawful and unlawful combatants who were US citizens during WW2. Being subject to attack was one of those consequences.

 

 

 

He was given the option of returning to the US for trial and refused. An operation in Pakistan against a Saudi is WAY different than an operation in Yemen against a Yemeni citizen.

 

Eta: If we had good options for capturing him, then yes, he would have been tried. But, because he made himself a military target? This is no different than anyone else killed by the military with bombs or drones.

Thank you for taking the time to respond :)

 

I accept that there are things I don't understand about this and am somewhat relieved that someone I trust (you) feel that it's all on the up and up. It's still strange to me, but I'm not sure there is a remedy for that. I just have to accept it and move on, ya know.