Hard to teach some subjects

[BakersDozen]

I see the value in teaching writing, spelling, etc. I do not see the value in teaching most math when I know the chances of my dc actually needing to use what they are learning are slim to none. I have never needed to use the quadratic equation, distance problems, slope-intercept form, etc. I got through college and am raising a family with no need for most of what I learned in math beyond the basics.

 

I'm so angry right now and frustrated! My dc just finished their second year of Algebra 1 and they bombed their final test...again. So here we go on a third year of Algebra to their frustration and mine. We've tried different programs and approaches and the truth is I can't find a way to show them why what they are learning matters; there is little application to their daily life so why learn it at all other than to take a test and forget it?

 

Does anyone else feel this way? I love math because I love problem-solving yet I hate math because it is useless (again, for the most part beyond the basics).

 

I'm tutoring a girl in Algebra 2 and we have the same frustration. At this point she is simply learning "to the test" just to get through this stupid course and move on.

 

I apologize to all the math lovers out there. If anyone has something you can share with me that will help both me and my dc I welcome the input.

[regentrude]

I do not see the value in teaching most math when I know the chances of my dc actually needing to use what they are learning are slim to none. I have never needed to use the quadratic equation, distance problems, slope-intercept form, etc. I got through college and am raising a family with no need for most of what I learned in math beyond the basics.

... I can't find a way to show them why what they are learning matters; there is little application to their daily life so why learn it at all other than to take a test and forget it?

 

Do you already know exactly what kinds of career paths your children will choose??

There are several reasons why math can matter to them.

1. Many professions require the student to take a lot of math in college. Not just obvious fields like science and engineering. Even if your kid wants to be a doctor, or a veterinarian, they must take math and pass algebra based physics at college level, in order to get into med or vet school (calculus does give the the edge -all my premeds have taken calculus). The aspiring pharmacist I had last year was required to master calculus based physics in order to be admitted to pharmacy school.

So, without studying math, you close the door on a large number of opportunities.

 

2. Many things in science make a lot more sense if you have the math background. If you find science useful, then math is useful as well, because it is one of the most important tools.

 

3. There are applications in every day life that go beyond adding up the grocery bill.

Understanding the behavior of the exponential function and of compound interest goes a long way in understanding the dangers of credit card debt, enable you to figure out mortgage payments and compare different mortgages. (Sure, you can pay somebody to do that for you.. I guess you can pay a personal shopper and do your shopping as well...)

One of the trickiest algebra problems my DD encountered was the example of a farmer who has to maximize his earnings by deciding which portion of his land to plant in which crop, taking into account the varying costs for seed, herbicide needs, and prices he can get for the different crops.

Statistics knowledge is extremely useful in evaluating everyday information from newspapers and TV. It will enable you to judge the validity of a study that is published to show xyz (the effect of a medication, or a life style change or whatever) if you understand the impact of sample size on standard deviation, and things like that. So, a more informed consumer than one who has to take these things at face value because he can not recognize a faulty study.

 

I am sure others can come up with more examples.

[Greensa]

I will let those more articulate than I respond more fully. However, I will mention two reasons to study math:

 

1. Through Algebra and into Geometry, I have used mathematics a great deal.

 

You may not even realize you are using it but when you try to figure out a whether the extra widget at Target makes it a good deal (let's see, if 2 widgets cost X and 3 cost Y, which is the better price? Is it better to pay $6 for 64oz or $3 for 29 oz?) you are using Algebra to solve for the unknown. But since it's "just everyday math," you don't think of it as Algebra. The quadratic equation? probably not. But you are using Algebra.

 

When you measure the furniture in a room to see if it will work to rearrange things, when you plan to add a wall/see if a 64 sq. ft. bedroom can be changed into an office/plan an addition to the house, you are using Geometry to see if it will work first.

 

If you go sailing, you are using Trigonometry every time you tack into the wind (as a matter of fact, realizing that enabled my husband to understand Trig). It is all angles and direction.

 

2. Math requires the learner to figure out how to complete one step at a time.

 

For my daughter, this is one of the most invaluable skills math has taught / is in the process of teaching. She thinks conceptually. Great for understanding concepts. Lousy for working through things stepwise. The realization that some things require one step at a time is, in fact, translating into other areas. She will stop herself as she gets frustrated, blow out a breath, and say out loud "One step at a time." She is learning that shortcuts sometimes just make it longer to finish.

 

In my opinion, or maybe just in my house, math is one of the really useful subjects, clear on up.

 

Now if we want to start another thread with which subjects we consider useless and why, I have a whole LIST of Things We've Studied Which Were a Waste of Time. But as I said, that's a list for another thread.:tongue_smilie:

 

In the meantime, if nothing else, consider it one minor step toward Proof You Really Can Stick To It. From learning to write neatly to finishing a Bachelor's, there are things we do just to demonstrate we can push through to success. As a teen, your daughter really can't be sure where her life will lead. She might never need it. But then again, she might. Depends on what career or life path she ultimately decides to follow.

 

So, not as short a response as I had initially thought I'd give. Sorry that I grew a bit verbose, but hope it helps, at least a bit. And if not, hope that just venting helps a bit.

 

Sara

[BakersDozen]

2. Math requires the learner to figure out how to complete one step at a time.

 

For my daughter, this is one of the most invaluable skills math has taught / is in the process of teaching. She thinks conceptually. Great for understanding concepts. Lousy for working through things stepwise. The realization that some things require one step at a time is, in fact, translating into other areas. She will stop herself as she gets frustrated, blow out a breath, and say out loud "One step at a time." She is learning that shortcuts sometimes just make it longer to finish.

 

 

This is an excellent point and one my dd has had to learn as well.

 

I agree that math can be useful in many ways. Yet when we are learning the quadratic formula or slope-intercept form and my dc ask me when they will have to use this or if I have ever had to use it, I can't lie! I've never used it, period. The problems such as those are the ones that frustrate me to no end because all I think is, "WHY do we need to know this??" I see the value in statistics, percents, fractions, etc. Yet there are so many other topics in math that just seem pointless unless one is planning on pursuing a major that requires higher math.

 

I'm sorry to vent. I want school to mean something to my dc and when they don't do well on things that I suspect will have absolutely no bearing on their life overall, it is hard to fail them or make them repeat a course.

[regentrude]

Yet there are so many other topics in math that just seem pointless unless one is planning on pursuing a major that requires higher math.

 

 

But can you say with absolute certainty that they will NOT choose a career that requires this? Do you want to limit their options that much?

 

ETA: the same argument that it has no bearing on their practical life can be made for Greek mythology (who needs that in daily life?), Latin, writing essays (many jobs get by completely without writing more than a phone note), music - anything! You still teach these subjects - because they belong to an educated person. Why do you treat math differently? Just because it is difficult?

Edited September 1, 2011 by regentrude

[regentrude]

I see the value in statistics, percents, fractions, etc. Yet there are so many other topics in math that just seem pointless unless one is planning on pursuing a major that requires higher math.

 

 

To understand statistics requires a lot of prior math knowledge, at least algebra 2. (To REALLY understand statistics, you need calculus.)

[Teachin'Mine]

When they did Saxon, did they do all the problems? Did they re-work any wrong answers until they got them right? I've found those two things to be critical when using Saxon.

 

Have you thought about having them do a class with Jann in TX? Having the help of a math teacher and tutor might make a world of difference. :)

 

You've been given lots of good reasons why higher math is important. :)

[fischerl]

I tell my kids the purpose of "useless" math (besides opening doors to college) is to teach us to think logically, to solve problems, and to persevere through trials. :D These are lessons they'll benefit from all their lives.

 

But I empathize with you, OP. Been there!

[Amy in TX]

To all the other replies, I would add my own feeling that algebra, geometry, trigonometry, etc., are simply part of the body of human knowledge that each generation passes on to the next. It actually feels like tragedy to me if someone is deprived of some big chunk of knowledge that most other people have (kind of like missing out on the "great conversation" of literature).

 

Sometimes I think of the brain as a house, and for every area of knowledge a person is never exposed to, one of the rooms is closed and dark. The mind is literally smaller.

 

Will they ever need to work the quadratic formula again? Maybe, maybe not. Who knows? But they will have seen that it exists and what it means, they will know that much more about the universe, (if you are a person of faith, that much more about the doings of God). They will have been pushed to think in a way that's challenging for them. Another door has opened and the mind is a little larger.

 

:grouphug:

 

BTW, I've found Jann in TX to be very insightful wrt how to guide different types of learners in math. She also offers online tutoring, I think.

[elegantlion]

My dh is a carpenter, he did not finish a college degree. He uses math everyday, From how much paint to buy to how to do a room addition. Geometry, algebra, measurements, converting from metric to standard. A miscalculation can cost us money, lots of money if it's a minor miscalculation on something like a room addition. The longer it takes him to do a calculations the more money it costs, his time is valuable.

 

I've looked at some of his estimate sheets, they look like my son's math homework.

 

I worked as a cashier for many years, way before digital fancy cash registers. Knowing how to make change and count money backwards and forwards correctly was important. If my drawer was off, I had to account for the reasons why.

 

At some point your children may do their own tax forms. I'm pretty good at quick calculations, but I make people leave me alone on the days I work on the tax return. IRS does not equal user friendly.

 

I believe knowing algebra and geometry at a minimum are important. I also understand how frustrating they can be to teach. I agree with the person who suggested looking into outside sources.

[smillard00]

I would seriously consider the possibility that your feelings about the value of math could be rubbing off on your children. If they don't think you value it, then they might not be putting in the effort to learn it that they need in order to pass it. The math classes where I learned the most were taught by teachers who were excited about the subject. They were fascinated by math and their enthusiasm was passed on to their students. Maybe it's time to outsource Algebra or just to re-evaluate your feelings about the subject.

[BakersDozen]

I would seriously consider the possibility that your feelings about the value of math could be rubbing off on your children. If they don't think you value it, then they might not be putting in the effort to learn it that they need in order to pass it. The math classes where I learned the most were taught by teachers who were excited about the subject. They were fascinated by math and their enthusiasm was passed on to their students. Maybe it's time to outsource Algebra or just to re-evaluate your feelings about the subject.

Ah, see for years I have been so enthusiastic about math! As a believer in God I love teaching my dc and saying things like, "Isn't it amazing how God put this into place? Do you see the patterns He created?" Math has up until now been a great source for this kind of talk.

 

I guess grading problems wrong that make me shake my head as I realize I've not used the problem once in my "real" life (meaning nonacademic) is hard.

 

At least I had a really good time going over the test with my dc this afternoon. We laughed over the silly mistakes made and just had a nice time together. :)

[Carol in Cal.]

When I was in 6th grade, I wanted to be an inner city Lutheran school teacher.

 

In 8th, a social worker. Not that I really knew what they did.

 

In 9th, a singer. Right.

 

In my senior year in high school, I realized that I actually was pretty enthusiastic about chemistry, at least among the majors that I could imagine making a living from. So I decided to major in chemistry in college. When a scholarship turned up to the college of my choice in chemical engineering, I switched to that.

 

If I had not stuck with math all the way through, and slogged through all the lab science classes, I would NEVER have known that I liked this, and I would NEVER have been able to qualify to study it.

 

Moral: Keep those options open. You just never know where your kids will end up. And, no, I never did like math. You don't have to like it to major in engineering. You just have to be able to do it, and to apply it.

[emubird]

The two subjects I have insisted on are reading and math. If we skipped everything else, I figured that would be enough for my kids to do well in life and/or college. Spelling, writing, grammar, history, science -- all that stuff is either an off shoot of reading and math, or can be picked up later.

 

Don't close off doors for your kids by skipping math. If they don't do it now, they'll just find it harder later when they have less time.

 

Math is good for teaching how to think, in addition to just being plain useful.

 

And so what if your kids get every problem wrong and can't do the end of year test? That doesn't mean they're not learning the material, or at least getting a good basis in their heads for relearning the material when they need it.

 

My kids get just about every math problem wrong. (But they always rework them.) They always say they've learned nothing, but when they relearn the material, it comes so much faster.

 

And I would never dare to give an end of year test. It would be too discouraging for all concerned. I've just always figured that if we keep going over things, even if the kids never seem to get it right, that something will sink in. And it does. Eventually. My college daughter actually knows her math, even though she got just about every math problem wrong that we ever worked. She just got through differential equations without too much stress, so I'd say this method worked.

Edited September 2, 2011 by emubird

[lewelma]

I think I might dig myself a big hole here. But I would NOT do a third year of Algebra with these children. I have taught high school math to a range of abilities, and I disagree that all children need to take Algebra. I had to teach kids who found math difficult how to do quadratic equations, and these same teens could not do basic problem solving. If you gave them the measurements of an area you wanted to pave, and the size of the bricks you were going to use, these teens had NO CLUE how to even start. Yet I was teaching them algebra.

 

My recommendation to you is to get an applied Mathematics textbook and focus on problem solving that appears relevant to your children. These types of texts can get very difficult, so you can do more than a year of this kind of math. If your children need algebra in their future (for statistics etc) they will be more motivated to put in the time and effort to understand it. They can take a remedial algebra course in College if the need arises, and I think at an older age they will be much more likely to find success.

 

Ruth in NZ

[creekland]

What curricula have you tried?

 

There are definitely students who won't need higher math later on in their lives pending what job/career they choose, but I'm another that feels they ought to learn the basics through Alg 2 or Pre-Calc anyway. It does help build the brain. The more different things they learn in their teenage years, the more brain cells they will physically have the rest of their lives even if they choose to use those particular cells for a different purpose.

 

Plus, preliminary studies have shown a correlation between the more different things one learns as a teen, the less likely they will be to show signs of Alzheimers later in life.

 

Therefore, when students at school ask me "why this" whether with math or a different subject I tell them they can always fall back on Alzheimer's protection.

 

However, as the daughter of two music teachers I'm glad I was exposed to math/science via school. I have very little musical talent. Sure, I learned all the basics about music, but I have little talent. My parents recognized this and let me quit piano lessons in first grade (though I did play trombone throughout school). My brain loves math/science and I'd have never known if I hadn't been exposed to it. I never really decided what I wanted to do until 10th grade in high school, then I shifted in college. I'm glad I had my math background from high school.

 

Last note... the math brain can develop more slowly in some people (and more quickly in some). Don't go into another year assuming the same old misunderstanding of it. Their brains are growing and developing and this year might be their "aha" year. My two older boys did Alg 1 in 7th grade with complete understanding. I tried youngest on the same path and quickly drew back as he just wasn't getting it. I retried it in 8th, but was rather certain in my mind that he just wasn't going to be a math person. He did well in it that year. Last year in 9th he did superbly in Geometry. Had he not gotten Alg 1 in 8th I'd have delayed another year to try it in 9th... One can't see the inner development of the brain...

[Nan in Mass]

I have used trig sailing, laying out a garden, and making sewing patterns. I've used those distance formulas rather frequently. I use my simple algebra (like juggling around the rate x time = distance) pretty much weekly, just figuring out things like how long it is going to take us to get someplace when the traffic slows us down or how far a tank of gas is going to go. There are sometimes other ways to figure these things out but they require more work. The ability to assign variables to the different elements of a problem, make formulas that describe the relationship between those variables, and then juggle the formulas around to solve for the element that I want to know (which is what I think of as algebra, at least at my time of life LOL) has made solving many, many problems in my daily life easier, from figuring out how much material to buy to make curtains for the living room to figuring out how much medicine to give my child when I only have the adult version. My son uses his tinkering with electronics. I think perhaps if you aren't finding the slope-intercept applicable, it is because your math program hasn't introduced you to some of its daily uses? And the same with the quadratic equation? We did Singapore for algebra (which I don't recommend jumping into the middle of) and it was chock full of word problems that a street vendor or small business owner or housewife would run into. I can certainly see why one might wish to quit after algebra and geometry, but I think you would be handicapping your children badly if you let them graduate without those two. What if someday they want to drive a tugboat or run their own store or become an electrician or a plumber? What if they want to go to college? Can't you just tell them that you don't happen to have a use for this stuff in your life but many people do?

 

HTH

Nan

[angela in ohio]

I would seriously consider the possibility that your feelings about the value of math could be rubbing off on your children. If they don't think you value it, then they might not be putting in the effort to learn it that they need in order to pass it. The math classes where I learned the most were taught by teachers who were excited about the subject. They were fascinated by math and their enthusiasm was passed on to their students. Maybe it's time to outsource Algebra or just to re-evaluate your feelings about the subject.

 

:iagree:

[katilac]

Can you explain what you mean by bombing their final test? Are they taking some big, huge, end-of-year test, and if so, is that one test the main problem?

 

Doing poorly on one test does not have to mean you re-do the entire year of algebra. How do they do on tests throughout the year? Even if a "final exam" is weighted heavily, a student can still pass a class by doing well throughout the year. Certainly, in a home school situation, I wouldn't do algebra year after year if they seemed to understand most of it, but didn't handle the one final test well. How do they do throughout the year?

 

I agree with the poster who said to be careful that your attitude is not rubbing off on them. And I wouldn't spend too much time and energy debating the whys of taking algebra. No one can pinpoint exactly what will and will not be useful in the future, colleges require it, and no teen can KNOW for certain that their career path will not require algebra. Don't forget - as a homeschooling mom and tutor, you DO use algebra!

[Carol in Cal.]

FYI, my DD is attending a Catholic high school, and their finals count only 10-15% of the grade.