Aunty Social Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 So after reading the thread about the, erm, lack of rigor in most of the education programs, I'm wondering what the best course of study should be. My dd 17 wants to be a high school English teacher, with a minor in French. We've been looking at schools that offer ed programs as well as foreign language, but now I'm wondering if that is the right path. Any suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skadi Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 I say this as someone who considered becoming an English teacher: does she realize that teachers are only paid around $35,000 per year and that getting her degree will cost around $75,000 (assuming she attends a public college)? Does she know that many school districts are instituting hiring freezes because of the economy? In terms of job security and seeing a return on her college investment, she may want to think about going into a different field. I'm good friends with a graduating education major who is very, very worried about his future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twoforjoy Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 The thing to keep in mind is that, if she doesn't get her certification as an undergrad, she'll have to pay for a year or two of grad school to do it. So, honestly, I think a program that will allow her to come out certified after four years would be best, unless money isn't a concern. If she does want to go on to get her master's--and she can make more money if she does--then at least she'll have her certification already and can teach while she goes back to school. For secondary ed, she'd likely be taking most of her classes within the English department, anyway. At schools where I've taught, secondary ed students needed to complete the major in the field they planned to teach in just like any other major in that field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 So after reading the thread about the, erm, lack of rigor in most of the education programs, I'm wondering what the best course of study should be. My dd 17 wants to be a high school English teacher, with a minor in French. We've been looking at schools that offer ed programs as well as foreign language, but now I'm wondering if that is the right path. Any suggestions? Let me say this about grade inflation.... It is not new. It is not restricted to education majors. Especially at the graduate level, it is rampant. However, that does not mean that one needs to meet lowered expectations. I think that one should strive to do their absolute best work, simply for the satisfaction of having done it. You will get your A. So, will most of your fellow grad students who are floating by on the bare minimum. Yet, when recommendation time comes around YOU are the one that will stand out in the minds of your profs and mentors, and they will do everything they can to get you in the right doors for the right jobs at the right schools. It is worth the work. Don't get bogged down in the thought that others are coasting and getting the same grades. You will stand out for your excellence. I speak from experience on both sides -- as a former grad student, and as a former prof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smillard00 Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 I think with the current state of things, it would be good if she came out with an English degree and and education certification. Look for schools with a great English department but also a reputation for a more rigorous school of education. If you have the opportunity, you might talk to administrators at some of the better schools in your area to see which universities they think are turning out the better prepared teachers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 If my child wanted to do this, I would recommend majoring in English and minoring in French or even double majoring.I'd follow the undergrad with an MAT or MEd (look for a 15 month program). If he/she does the grad program at her undergrad school and she has good grades and room in her schedule her senior year she may be able to take grad classes for grad credit before getting her BA. I would recommend getting the stuff together to substitute as soon as he/she had enough courses (30 credits of anything where I live) to do so. The he/she can sub in May/June and Dec/Jan and make contacts over the next couple of years. If she has friends whose moms/dads are teachers she should start with them to find subbing jobs between semesters. My school system has a lot of college kids do this. My ds's IB English teacher in ps speaks French fluently. She had opportunities to study at both Oxford and The Sorbonne (?). I believe she had a Fulbright and she had a free ride undergrad so her total expense on school was not so much. One of the books they studied last year was by a French author, so my smarty pants son wrote his paper in French. His teacher liked that. My son is hoping to keep studying French too, but also not as his main major. Good luck to your dd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Well, I can answer a few questions. I was an English teacher for many years. I did not even major in English (very long story here!) I don't know what is available now, but even up to a few years ago, one could get full tuition from the State of NC if you majored in Education and fulfilled 4 full years of teaching in the state after college. California had some similar programs when we lived there. I don't know if there are any of the above offered any longer, but it is certainly something to look into and research. I would also strongly suggest we get a supplemental credential in a needed area, like teaching ESL. My ESL credential will almost always get me in the door even if I can't find a job in my other credential areas (English, History and School Counseling.) If one loves teaching, it really is a great job. I did love it and miss it terribly some days. I worked for over 16 years in Public Education and sometimes it upsets me when homeschoolers just knock it so much. Dawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 I say this as someone who considered becoming an English teacher: does she realize that teachers are only paid around $35,000 per year and that getting her degree will cost around $75,000 (assuming she attends a public college)? Does she know that many school districts are instituting hiring freezes because of the economy? In terms of job security and seeing a return on her college investment, she may want to think about going into a different field. I'm good friends with a graduating education major who is very, very worried about his future. I think it's great advice to consider the cost of a degree and the potential salary that can be earned with that degree if you can get a job in that field. The numbers will vary according to the college, of course, as to how much it costs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Well, I can answer a few questions. I was an English teacher for many years. I did not even major in English (very long story here!) I don't know what is available now, but even up to a few years ago, one could get full tuition from the State of NC if you majored in Education and fulfilled 4 full years of teaching in the state after college. California had some similar programs when we lived there. I don't know if there are any of the above offered any longer, but it is certainly something to look into and research. I would also strongly suggest we get a supplemental credential in a needed area, like teaching ESL. My ESL credential will almost always get me in the door even if I can't find a job in my other credential areas (English, History and School Counseling.) If one loves teaching, it really is a great job. I did love it and miss it terribly some days. I worked for over 16 years in Public Education and sometimes it upsets me when homeschoolers just knock it so much. Dawn :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmrich Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 I will be the voice that says pursue your passion. I wish I could go back and get an English degree. I do not regret my early childhood/elementary education degree (thank you - very much) b/c I know I made a significant difference in the lives of many sweet children - not just my own. Sorry just have to say that after the bashing of the education major.... Your dd will not be rich; she will struggle as she teaches. Hopefully, she will be rewarded beyond wildest richest when she knows that she changed a child's life for the better. Nothing can replace that knowledge that you MADE a difference. Best of luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamaTanya Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 I always recommend that my students work toward another certificate. My dh started as a secondary special ed teacher and added guidance counseling. I started as an elementary teacher and added gifted/talented. Despite budget cuts, there are still some high need areas. Our local ones have been math, science, and special education. There was (but I don't know about currently) a program to forgive a portion of your student loans for working several consecutive years in a Title One school (generally lower income population) in addition to the high need certificates. (I actually got a phone call this summer because some g/t teachers were retiring and there aren't enough applicants who have completed the requirements -- and the g/t certification here is K-12. For someone who has an English endorsement, that might mean teaching A.P. and other honors or gifted courses in a high school.) If your dd wants to teach English (my undergrad degree), she could major in English AND secondary ed. In our state (please check in yours), teachers get paid for a master's degree even if it isn't in their teaching field. IOW, she may be able to get a master's in English and get a raise. Or teach in a community college. Or French. Or ESL. (I see ads for ESL teachers all the time and the local master's in ESL is available online!) 2 programs I also considered were counseling and media science, but apparently there are more teachers who have this additional credential who are just waiting for someone to retire . . . Because education has specific certification areas, the more you have to offer, the better your chances -- even in a tough economy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 Well, here's the problem. Everybody and their uncle going into education programs get degrees in English or History (or elementary Ed). There are just too many of them and not enough jobs. And French is even worse. Most schools have dropped or are dropping their French programs in favor of Spanish and Mandarin (or none at all). Add that to a bad economy and her job prospects are not great. They are better if she is willing to work overseas but even we get hundreds of applications every year for just a few openings. If she wants to be a high school teacher and actually wants to get a job then she should major in math, science or special ed. She will always have a job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aunty Social Posted August 27, 2011 Author Share Posted August 27, 2011 Wow! Thanks for all of the replies. We're getting ready for Irene, so I've only been able to skim the replies. Looks like a lot of good points. I'm looking forward to being able to spend a little more time on them (and ask more questions) after the storm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kokotg Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 If she wants to be a high school teacher and actually wants to get a job then she should major in math, science or special ed. She will always have a job. I hate to say it, but...yeah. DH is a high school math teacher. He majored in math, minored in computer science, and worked in web development for a few years after college with no intention of ever going into teaching. When he did decide to try teaching, he walked into it, in a good district, with a provisional certification and no education classes or teaching experience whatsoever (stellar test scores, however). He got his certification through a "mentoring" program that largely involved filling out a lot of paperwork (again, no education classes). But. That was in math. And it was 8 years ago. Things are very different right now, and even in math and science it's not easy to find a job. Of course, there's something to be said for taking risks to get what you really, really want. But it is a lot of risk to take for the chance at a job that offers low compensation and a lot of headaches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aunty Social Posted September 1, 2011 Author Share Posted September 1, 2011 I say this as someone who considered becoming an English teacher: does she realize that teachers are only paid around $35,000 per year and that getting her degree will cost around $75,000 (assuming she attends a public college)? Does she know that many school districts are instituting hiring freezes because of the economy? Yes, she is aware that teaching is not a highly paid profession. However, she really wants to share her love for literature with others, and (realizing that many will just be completing a required course) hopefully ignite a love for it in her future students. The thing to keep in mind is that, if she doesn't get her certification as an undergrad, she'll have to pay for a year or two of grad school to do it. So, honestly, I think a program that will allow her to come out certified after four years would be best, unless money isn't a concern. If she does want to go on to get her master's--and she can make more money if she does--then at least she'll have her certification already and can teach while she goes back to school. For secondary ed, she'd likely be taking most of her classes within the English department, anyway. At schools where I've taught, secondary ed students needed to complete the major in the field they planned to teach in just like any other major in that field. She does (at this point) plan on getting her master's - whether it's before or after she is working is up in the air right now. Is it possible to get certification and also complete a full English degree in 4 yrs? However, that does not mean that one needs to meet lowered expectations. I think that one should strive to do their absolute best work, simply for the satisfaction of having done it. You will get your A. So, will most of your fellow grad students who are floating by on the bare minimum. Yet, when recommendation time comes around YOU are the one that will stand out in the minds of your profs and mentors, and they will do everything they can to get you in the right doors for the right jobs at the right schools. It is worth the work. Don't get bogged down in the thought that others are coasting and getting the same grades. You will stand out for your excellence. I speak from experience on both sides -- as a former grad student, and as a former prof. Thank you for this. I will be sharing with her. She subscribes to the mindset of 'do your best no matter what' - but the follow through is spotty. :tongue_smilie: It's just too easy to coast sometimes - especially when the work isn't overly challenging. I think with the current state of things, it would be good if she came out with an English degree and and education certification. Look for schools with a great English department but also a reputation for a more rigorous school of education. If you have the opportunity, you might talk to administrators at some of the better schools in your area to see which universities they think are turning out the better prepared teachers. I'm assuming you mean the high schools? Or would I want to speak with local colleges? If my child wanted to do this, I would recommend majoring in English and minoring in French or even double majoring.I'd follow the undergrad with an MAT or MEd (look for a 15 month program). I would recommend getting the stuff together to substitute as soon as he/she had enough courses (30 credits of anything where I live) to do so. The he/she can sub in May/June and Dec/Jan and make contacts over the next couple of years. If she has friends whose moms/dads are teachers she should start with them to find subbing jobs between semesters. My school system has a lot of college kids do this. She does plan on majoring in English/secondary ed (still not sure if that's one program, two programs, or a program and something else - the college websites haven't been especially clear) and minoring in French. She has a (probably not very practical:lol:) dream of working over in France as an English teacher if she can't get a job here. I told her to make sure her apt. has a spare room for Mom and Dad.:D The subbing during breaks is an awesome idea! We have a couple friends who are teachers. (duh - why did I not think of asking them these questions?!) I don't know what is available now, but even up to a few years ago, one could get full tuition from the State of NC if you majored in Education and fulfilled 4 full years of teaching in the state after college. I don't know if there are any of the above offered any longer, but it is certainly something to look into and research. I would also strongly suggest we get a supplemental credential in a needed area, like teaching ESL. My ESL credential will almost always get me in the door even if I can't find a job in my other credential areas (English, History and School Counseling.) Dawn Do you happen to remember what the tuition program was called? I did a quick google search and didn't find anything. She had mentioned ESL as an extra - but is it doable with everything else? Or should she take the courses after she has her primary degree? I think it's great advice to consider the cost of a degree and the potential salary that can be earned with that degree if you can get a job in that field. The numbers will vary according to the college, of course, as to how much it costs. Yes, we've talk a lot about trying to come out of college with as little debt as possible. For that reason, she will probably complete her first two years at the local cc and then transfer - unless she can get some killer scholarships. I will be the voice that says pursue your passion. I wish I could go back and get an English degree. I do not regret my early childhood/elementary education degree (thank you - very much) b/c I know I made a significant difference in the lives of many sweet children - not just my own. Sorry just have to say that after the bashing of the education major.... Your dd will not be rich; she will struggle as she teaches. Hopefully, she will be rewarded beyond wildest richest when she knows that she changed a child's life for the better. Nothing can replace that knowledge that you MADE a difference. Best of luck. This is the theory we have as well. You will have your job for most of your life. Don't get one you hate, and it's best if you can get one you love. I always recommend that my students work toward another certificate. My dh started as a secondary special ed teacher and added guidance counseling. I started as an elementary teacher and added gifted/talented. (I actually got a phone call this summer because some g/t teachers were retiring and there aren't enough applicants who have completed the requirements -- and the g/t certification here is K-12. For someone who has an English endorsement, that might mean teaching A.P. and other honors or gifted courses in a high school.) If your dd wants to teach English (my undergrad degree), she could major in English AND secondary ed. In our state (please check in yours), teachers get paid for a master's degree even if it isn't in their teaching field. IOW, she may be able to get a master's in English and get a raise. Or teach in a community college. Or French. Or ESL. (I see ads for ESL teachers all the time and the local master's in ESL is available online!) Because education has specific certification areas, the more you have to offer, the better your chances -- even in a tough economy. Wait - you have to have a special certificate to teach things like AP or Honors courses? How many pieces of paper is she going to need? And how long/much extra money will this be? (starting to panic here....) Well, here's the problem. Everybody and their uncle going into education programs get degrees in English or History (or elementary Ed). There are just too many of them and not enough jobs. And French is even worse. Most schools have dropped or are dropping their French programs in favor of Spanish and Mandarin (or none at all). Add that to a bad economy and her job prospects are not great. They are better if she is willing to work overseas but even we get hundreds of applications every year for just a few openings. If she wants to be a high school teacher and actually wants to get a job then she should major in math, science or special ed. She will always have a job. I understand what you are saying, and appreciate the advice...but we're going to ignore it. ;) I think she could be a great English teacher, because she has a passion for it - and the students will pick up on that. Math? yeah....not so much. She'd hate it and so would her students. But it is a lot of risk to take for the chance at a job that offers low compensation and a lot of headaches. It is indeed. And we've discussed the ridiculous paperwork, annoying parents, stifling state standards. She knows that it will not be all roses, but is really looking forward to making that connection with the students and igniting that love and excitement for good books. Thanks! I've gotten some really good information here, and been forced to re-examine her reasons for wanting this degree vs another as well. I think we're on the right track for now - until I run across something else I don't understand.:lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 I am not sure what you mean by tuition program. The program I did was called TESOL (Teaching English to Speakers of Other Languages) but it was an MA program. The MA has allowed me to be credentialed to teach K-College levels. There is another program that is a secondary credential program that can be taken along with an undergrad program. It varies around the country. In CA I had to have an English credential and an ESL supplementary credential to teach ESL. Here in NC, one can have ANY credential at all and teach ESL. She will have to see what requirement there are in her state and what her school suggests she do. I have to say that ESL students are THE sweetest, kindest, most generous kids I taught (shhhh, don't tell, it was a well guarded secret.) I taught Secondary and all my info is for middle or high school. I am not sure what requirements there might be for Elem. Dawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msjones Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Let me say this about grade inflation.... It is not new. It is not restricted to education majors. Especially at the graduate level, it is rampant. However, that does not mean that one needs to meet lowered expectations. I think that one should strive to do their absolute best work, simply for the satisfaction of having done it. You will get your A. So, will most of your fellow grad students who are floating by on the bare minimum. Yet, when recommendation time comes around YOU are the one that will stand out in the minds of your profs and mentors, and they will do everything they can to get you in the right doors for the right jobs at the right schools. It is worth the work. Don't get bogged down in the thought that others are coasting and getting the same grades. You will stand out for your excellence. I speak from experience on both sides -- as a former grad student, and as a former prof. This is the best thing I've read all day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aunty Social Posted September 1, 2011 Author Share Posted September 1, 2011 I am not sure what you mean by tuition program. The program I did was called TESOL (Teaching English to Speakers of Other Languages) but it was an MA program. The MA has allowed me to be credentialed to teach K-College levels. There is another program that is a secondary credential program that can be taken along with an undergrad program. It varies around the country. In CA I had to have an English credential and an ESL supplementary credential to teach ESL. Here in NC, one can have ANY credential at all and teach ESL. She will have to see what requirement there are in her state and what her school suggests she do. I have to say that ESL students are THE sweetest, kindest, most generous kids I taught (shhhh, don't tell, it was a well guarded secret.) I taught Secondary and all my info is for middle or high school. I am not sure what requirements there might be for Elem. Dawn Sorry, I wasn't very clear. I was trying to preserve space in the response of a thousand words.:tongue_smilie: I was referring to when you mentioned that NC would pay a teacher's tuition to get a degree if they then taught in-state for 4 years. I didn't know if it had a specific name when you knew of it - just looking for another google search idea, because mine are coming up bust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 ah, you know, I am not sure it is still the case. With teacher lay-offs and the economy, this may be one thing that is no longer valid. I did not attend college in NC but when I went to grad school in CA, CA was offering a similar deal to grad students in certain education programs. I will ask around and get back to you. Dawn Sorry, I wasn't very clear. I was trying to preserve space in the response of a thousand words.:tongue_smilie: I was referring to when you mentioned that NC would pay a teacher's tuition to get a degree if they then taught in-state for 4 years. I didn't know if it had a specific name when you knew of it - just looking for another google search idea, because mine are coming up bust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 I think this is it: http://www.cfnc.org/career/TeacherEd/modelTeacher.jsp But I will double check tomorrow. I am too tired to even read it tonight. Dawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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