Trying to decide on math - NEM, DM, AoPS

[Alessandra]

Can you share your personal experience choosing or using middle school math textbooks with math-loving kids? THANKS!

 

ETA edited because I found a lot of answers on the Singapore forums, but I would still love to know the personal experiences of people here.

Edited July 29, 2011 by Alessandra

[regentrude]

We have experience with AoPS.

My DD used Intro to Algebra in 7th grade, my DS used it for 6th (he went slower and got through haf the book during the school year and will finish in 7th.) DD completed Intro to Geometry this past school year and started working on INtermediate Algebra.

AoPS is a discovery based approach. The student is presented problems to solve , then the solutions are discussed in the text and the new concept developed. At the end of each section there are practice problems which are sufficiently different that the student really needs to think about how the concept is applied. The chapter ends with review and challenge problems, some of which are REALLY challenging.

We absolutely love AoPS and it works well for our children. It is a mastery based approach (we don't like spiral or incremental, as in Saxon). One of the best things is that the author's enthusiasm shines through on every page - these books are just FUN.

 

The material covered in Intro to Algebra is a lot more than in a traditional algebra 1 course. AoPS works for students who are good at, and excited about math - and who are willing to do the work and occasionally spend an hour puzzling on a challenge problem. I would not recommend the program for a student who is lukewarm or struggling.

[Jen500]

We have experience with AoPS.

 

 

The material covered in Intro to Algebra is a lot more than in a traditional algebra 1 course. AoPS works for students who are good at, and excited about math - and who are willing to do the work and occasionally spend an hour puzzling on a challenge problem. I would not recommend the program for a student who is lukewarm or struggling.

 

Regentrude, could you describe how you used Aops Intro to Algebra? Did your dc work through the book on their own? What role did you play?

We did the first 5 or 6 chapters of NEM1 last year, and I think I want to switch to AoPS this year. I have the book, but reading through the first chapter I'm not sure how to use it--I really don't want to just hand the book over to my dc--we enjoy doing math together.

[Alessandra]

We have experience with AoPS.

My DD used Intro to Algebra in 7th grade, my DS used it for 6th (he went slower and got through haf the book during the school year and will finish in 7th.) DD completed Intro to Geometry this past school year and started working on INtermediate Algebra.

AoPS is a discovery based approach. The student is presented problems to solve , then the solutions are discussed in the text and the new concept developed. At the end of each section there are practice problems which are sufficiently different that the student really needs to think about how the concept is applied. The chapter ends with review and challenge problems, some of which are REALLY challenging.

We absolutely love AoPS and it works well for our children. It is a mastery based approach (we don't like spiral or incremental, as in Saxon). One of the best things is that the author's enthusiasm shines through on every page - these books are just FUN.

 

The material covered in Intro to Algebra is a lot more than in a traditional algebra 1 course. AoPS works for students who are good at, and excited about math - and who are willing to do the work and occasionally spend an hour puzzling on a challenge problem. I would not recommend the program for a student who is lukewarm or struggling.

 

I have heard such good things about AoPS, and now I see that RR carries it -- no shipping!

 

We like a mastery approach too. I did see about it's being for children who like math and are good at it -- that fits my son.

 

This is such a difficult decision!

[Alessandra]

We did the first 5 or 6 chapters of NEM1 last year, and I think I want to switch to AoPS this year. I have the book, but reading through the first chapter I'm not sure how to use it--I really don't want to just hand the book over to my dc--we enjoy doing math together.

 

Jen -- I would love to know why you stopped NEM. Hearing why people don't use a program is valuable.

[Jen500]

Jen -- I would love to know why you stopped NEM. Hearing why people don't use a program is valuable.

 

We did SM through 6b and then moved on to NEM. I had previously bought AoPS Intro to Algebra, but knew we needed to cover some topics in NEM before starting AoPS. I did get off to a rough start w/NEM because I felt some topics didn't have enough explanation (and I bought DM to help w/this but haven't used it) and I wasn't very good at filling in the blanks. However, now I'm feeling a lot more comfortable w/NEM....I guess I just needed to get used to the new format. Just looking through DM, it looks as if NEM has more challenging problems. I want a program to challenge my dc, make them think through the problems, and not always be able to solve them.

I am trying to do some long-term planning and I'm not sure I want to commit to NEM1 and NEM2 (to cover algebra and geometry), and may just want to do them separately (AoPS)

I do love having several great programs to choose from!

[PeterPan]

No comment on those but a small suggestion to look at Crossing the River with Dogs (text on problem-solving) if you're looking for something to do for a bit to kill time till the AOPS pre-algebra comes out. :)

[regentrude]

Regentrude, could you describe how you used Aops Intro to Algebra? Did your dc work through the book on their own? What role did you play?

 

We had the kids work through the book from the beginning. For the beginning of each section, they have a parent next to them. They attempt the introductory problems without help, but if necessary, we may step in to assist or guide their discovery process. They read the explanations and we discuss the new concept with them (rarely it was necessary to explain something in different terms - AoPS explained the material just the same way we would have chosen to). After that, they work independently on the practice and review problems and consult us only if they encounter difficulties. Some of the challenge problems were REALLY hard, even for us parents (who are both theoretical physicists).

 

Intro to Geometry required a bit more coaching, because DD loves algebra and disliked geometry which she mistakenly believed not to be good at. So, parental presence was essential for the geometry work to get done. (More for moral support though- she did just fine with the material)

 

With both algebra and geometry, the kids were required to complete all practice problems at the end of each sections, but were assigned only a careful selection of end-of-chapter review and challenge problems.

 

We checked the answers to the problems immediately after work was completed and had the kids redo any wrong ones, but assigned no grades for homework. We gave them ONE comprehensive exam per semester (preceeded by a practice exam) to determine a grade.

[Jen500]

We had the kids work through the book from the beginning. For the beginning of each section, they have a parent next to them. They attempt the introductory problems without help, but if necessary, we may step in to assist or guide their discovery process. They read the explanations and we discuss the new concept with them (rarely it was necessary to explain something in different terms - AoPS explained the material just the same way we would have chosen to). After that, they work independently on the practice and review problems and consult us only if they encounter difficulties. Some of the challenge problems were REALLY hard, even for us parents (who are both theoretical physicists).

 

Intro to Geometry required a bit more coaching, because DD loves algebra and disliked geometry which she mistakenly believed not to be good at. So, parental presence was essential for the geometry work to get done. (More for moral support though- she did just fine with the material)

 

With both algebra and geometry, the kids were required to complete all practice problems at the end of each sections, but were assigned only a careful selection of end-of-chapter review and challenge problems.

 

We checked the answers to the problems immediately after work was completed and had the kids redo any wrong ones, but assigned no grades for homework. We gave them ONE comprehensive exam per semester (preceeded by a practice exam) to determine a grade.

 

Thanks!

[Alessandra]

We had the kids work through the book from the beginning. For the beginning of each section, they have a parent next to them. They attempt the introductory problems without help, but if necessary, we may step in to assist or guide their discovery process. They read the explanations and we discuss the new concept with them (rarely it was necessary to explain something in different terms - AoPS explained the material just the same way we would have chosen to). After that, they work independently on the practice and review problems and consult us only if they encounter difficulties. Some of the challenge problems were REALLY hard, even for us parents (who are both theoretical physicists).

 

Intro to Geometry required a bit more coaching, because DD loves algebra and disliked geometry which she mistakenly believed not to be good at. So, parental presence was essential for the geometry work to get done. (More for moral support though- she did just fine with the material)

 

With both algebra and geometry, the kids were required to complete all practice problems at the end of each sections, but were assigned only a careful selection of end-of-chapter review and challenge problems.

 

We checked the answers to the problems immediately after work was completed and had the kids redo any wrong ones, but assigned no grades for homework. We gave them ONE comprehensive exam per semester (preceeded by a practice exam) to determine a grade.

 

More thanks!

[Alessandra]

No comment on those but a small suggestion to look at Crossing the River with Dogs (text on problem-solving) if you're looking for something to do for a bit to kill time till the AOPS pre-algebra comes out. :)

 

Ds is just about to take the placement tests for algebra/prealgebra.

 

I will look at Crossing the River....

[HSDCY]

I've used both DM2 and AoPS Intro to Algebra and I'll say they are both very strong programs but maybe suitable for different students.

 

Like someone already pointed out, AoPS is a discovery based program. They ask you questions, see if you can come up with solution on your own, and then they provide different ways of solving them. Excellent explanations, very logical, and everything is step-by-step. However, their sample problems and exercise problems are not your regular hard algebra problems, they are often taken from past math competitions and require cleaver ways to solve.

 

DM, however, is an extension to Primary Math. It has the same cute illustrations except the kids in the pictures are teens, clear instructions, and same high quality problems. The problems in the textbooks are somewhat easier than the ones found in the workbooks. If you have younger children learning algebra for the first time, I'd recommend DM.

 

If I can summarize my own experience with DM and AoPS, I'd say that DM is for strong math students (or those who "get" math), and AoPS is for those who eat, breathe, and sleep math.

 

Strong math students can get an excellent math education using DM (maybe supplementing with AoPS), but not every strong math student is crazy about math and therefore AoPS could be "too much" and dampen the interest of the student if not used properly. But if you have a student who absolutely loves math, is self-motivated to learn, is not afraid of "not getting it right the first time", can take some frustration working through tough problems, and does not need visual clues, AoPS is the one to pick.

[Capt_Uhura]

OHElizabeth - Can you tell me more about Crossing the River with Dogs? Do you need the teacher book? Are there any threads about it here? I looked at the sample pdf and it looks interesting! I need another math book sitting on my shelf unused like I need ......

 

Can you compare Crossing the River with the Zaccaro problem solving books?

Edited July 29, 2011 by Capt_Uhura

[PeterPan]

OHElizabeth - Can you tell me more about Crossing the River with Dogs? Do you need the teacher book? Are there any threads about it here? I looked at the sample pdf and it looks interesting! I need another math book sitting on my shelf unused like I need ......

 

Can you compare Crossing the River with the Zaccaro problem solving books?

 

I just got it yesterday and looked at it enough to know we'll get some use out of it. We're at sort of an awkward age/stage, and I'm just gonna throw lots of things at her and make sure we're doing SOMETHING. I didn't know there's a tm, but it makes sense, dh. It didn't look like something I would need a tm for, but I could be wrong. And if someone else wants it, that's fine.

 

I hated Zaccaro, so I never made her use it and sold mine. To me they weren't whitty. But I'm just picky. The entire rest of the world seems to like it.

 

Other threads? KarenAnne used it, also at an awkward age, and that was enough of a recommendation for me.

[Alessandra]

I've used both DM2 and AoPS Intro to Algebra and I'll say they are both very strong programs but maybe suitable for different students.

 

Like someone already pointed out, AoPS is a discovery based program. They ask you questions, see if you can come up with solution on your own, and then they provide different ways of solving them. Excellent explanations, very logical, and everything is step-by-step. However, their sample problems and exercise problems are not your regular hard algebra problems, they are often taken from past math competitions and require cleaver ways to solve.

 

DM, however, is an extension to Primary Math. It has the same cute illustrations except the kids in the pictures are teens, clear instructions, and same high quality problems. The problems in the textbooks are somewhat easier than the ones found in the workbooks. If you have younger children learning algebra for the first time, I'd recommend DM.

 

If I can summarize my own experience with DM and AoPS, I'd say that DM is for strong math students (or those who "get" math), and AoPS is for those who eat, breathe, and sleep math.

 

Strong math students can get an excellent math education using DM (maybe supplementing with AoPS), but not every strong math student is crazy about math and therefore AoPS could be "too much" and dampen the interest of the student if not used properly. But if you have a student who absolutely loves math, is self-motivated to learn, is not afraid of "not getting it right the first time", can take some frustration working through tough problems, and does not need visual clues, AoPS is the one to pick.

 

What you said is so helpful. Ds is (very) good at math and he loves it. But he is in ps and will be doing math there -- in 6th grade, but doing 7th grade math (one of 6 students out of about 300). But since he will be doing math at school, I don't want to overload him. On the other hand, he is drawn to more difficult math and gets bored when he knows (or partly knows) the material.

 

I was really drawn to the whole AoPS website and community, even looking at the online courses. And it's a plus that AoPS costs significantly less than DM w/teacher guides/solutions manuals.

 

This morning I was ready to order one of the Singapore programs; now I'm leaning towards AoPS. I'm not a curriculum changer, so this is difficult for me!

[PeterPan]

Well this is terrible, but I've wondered if it would work out fine to use just the *workbook* from DM and skip the rest. We've done CWP without using the rest of the curriculum, so I figured it would be in the same vein. Don't have it in-hand mind you. It's just what I've been thinking of.

[Alessandra]

Update

 

I looked at Teaching Textbooks. Wow, the placement test for TT Algebra is so much easier than the AoPS Algebra test -- it's like being on different planets! The cds would drive ds crazy too. So I eliminated TT as a choice quickly.

 

I also checked out the Key to... books. Dc have never used them, but they look very appealing (as a supplement, obviously). We'll try a few -- it's a tiny financial commitment.

 

I did check out Crossing the River with Dogs -- looks great, but a tad expensive for now.

[8filltheheart]

 

If I can summarize my own experience with DM and AoPS, I'd say that DM is for strong math students (or those who "get" math), and AoPS is for those who eat, breathe, and sleep math.

 

Strong math students can get an excellent math education using DM (maybe supplementing with AoPS), but not every strong math student is crazy about math and therefore AoPS could be "too much" and dampen the interest of the student if not used properly. But if you have a student who absolutely loves math, is self-motivated to learn, is not afraid of "not getting it right the first time", can take some frustration working through tough problems, and does not need visual clues, AoPS is the one to pick.

 

I know nothing about DM, but I mostly agree with this assessment of AoPS. My ds that loves math loves AoPS. My dd that is very good in math isn't terribly fond of AoPS approach. I think that my dd that doesn't really like AoPS needs more of the details to be taught in order to see the big picture. AoPS tries to get the student to discover the details on their own via illustrating the big picture. (AoPS is more whole to parts vs. parts to whole)

[Capt_Uhura]

8FilltheHeart - there you go again making me think. :001_smile: That's three times now you've mentioned something being whole to parts and then bells went off in my head. I think DS will like AoPS for the very reasons you mentioned. He hates being given the details. He likes figuring it out for himself after being given the big picture.

[Jen500]

Alessandra,

Have you looked at Gelfand's Algebra? It might make an interesting supplement if your ds is already doing math at ps.

[PeterPan]

I did check out Crossing the River with Dogs -- looks great, but a tad expensive for now.

 

Look for an older edition. I got mine for $11 with shipping. Not chump change, but not horrible either. And if you like problem-solving stuff, don't forget the math olympiad books from AoPS. They're fun too. :)

[Alessandra]

Alessandra,

Have you looked at Gelfand's Algebra? It might make an interesting supplement if your ds is already doing math at ps.

 

I just googled it. It came up on the Singapore website when I googled, but when I clicked through the 'shop' menus, it wasn't there. Weird! Gelfand sounds like a major mathematician -- many thanks for bringing him to my attention! I put his book in my Amazon cart.

 

Ds probably would not like it, judging from the samples I could find. He likes to work problems right away. In Singapore Primary, he was always pushing away the textbook, anxious to get to the workbook and IP. Gelfand seemed more theoretical? Ds is only 11, not ready for this yet, IMO.

 

But, it looks like a book I would love -- I like the big picture. And it would probably help me teach -- my school/college math days are far away.

 

BTW, the discussion about whole to parts and parts to whole has been very helpful. It gave my half formed thoughts a clearer identity.

[Alessandra]

Look for an older edition. I got mine for $11 with shipping. Not chump change, but not horrible either. And if you like problem-solving stuff, don't forget the math olympiad books from AoPS. They're fun too. :)

 

Oh, I hadn't thought of used -- we are so used to math book that are written in. I"ll keep my eye out for it. Thanks!

[wapiti]

Oh, I hadn't thought of used -- we are so used to math book that are written in. I"ll keep my eye out for it. Thanks!

 

We have a 1994 edition that's inexpensive (used) at amazon and abebooks. I bought it about a year ago - despite being used, it is like new. The answer key, however, is rather expensive (I won't buy it unless I decide to use the book).

Edited July 31, 2011 by wapiti

[snowbeltmom]

I was really drawn to the whole AoPS website and community, even looking at the online courses.

 

Have you looked at Alcumus on the AoPS website? It is a free program and covers their Intro to Algebra, Counting & Probability and Number Theory books. (I think I read somewhere that they are working on geometry now)

[PeterPan]

Oh, I hadn't thought of used -- we are so used to math book that are written in. I"ll keep my eye out for it. Thanks!

 

If it says very good condition and doesn't specify any writing, there probably won't be any. And sometimes you can save even a fuzz more if you look for the book on alibris and use a coupon code with it.

[Guest]

We have a 1994 edition that's inexpensive (used) at amazon and abebooks. I bought it about a year ago - despite being used, it is like new. The answer key, however, is rather expensive (I won't buy it unless I decide to use the book).

 

We didn't need the answer key the year dd worked through nearly all of the book. The problems for each chapter begin on the easy level and become increasingly difficult; when dd reached her ceiling, we just stopped. Most chapters she got all the way through, but in a couple of places she got stuck near the high end. We could have worked through them all with the help of the answer key, but there were so few problems she didn't do that it wasn't really necessary.

 

There is one chapter specifically on formal algebraic methods of solving equations, but most of the other chapters require only strong pre-algebra skills. If as a parent you have those, you shouldn't need the answer book. If you feel shaky on some of that, having the solutions manual on hand would probably be really useful.

[wapiti]

We didn't need the answer key the year dd worked through nearly all of the book. The problems for each chapter begin on the easy level and become increasingly difficult; when dd reached her ceiling, we just stopped. Most chapters she got all the way through, but in a couple of places she got stuck near the high end. We could have worked through them all with the help of the answer key, but there were so few problems she didn't do that it wasn't really necessary.

 

There is one chapter specifically on formal algebraic methods of solving equations, but most of the other chapters require only strong pre-algebra skills. If as a parent you have those, you shouldn't need the answer book. If you feel shaky on some of that, having the solutions manual on hand would probably be really useful.

 

Thank you, KarenAnne - that is extremely helpful to know! LOL I don't even know why I bought this book so long ago, but it looks like fun.

[Guest]

 

It WAS fun; dd got more math done the year we used that book than she had any previous year! I think we got through most of it in about six months because she actually enjoyed it. I rewrote some of the word problems as Star Trek problems, as that was The Year of Star Trek in our house, and this made a difference too; but she liked the book better than she's liked any textbook since.

[Spy Car]

:lurk5:

 

Just lurking :D

 

Bill

[Alessandra]

We have a 1994 edition that's inexpensive (used) at amazon and abebooks. I bought it about a year ago - despite being used, it is like new. The answer key, however, is rather expensive (I won't buy it unless I decide to use the book).

 

Oh, thanks for the links. I had been looking at the keypress website and seen the book for $45 and then I found the college version on Amazon for $65. I sort of gave up after that. But at the prices on your links, definitely a buy.

 

Thank you!

 

http://www.keypress.com/x5488.xml

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=crossing+the+river+with+dogs&x=0&y=0

 

Have you looked at Alcumus on the AoPS website? It is a free program and covers their Intro to Algebra, Counting & Probability and Number Theory books. (I think I read somewhere that they are working on geometry now)

 

Alcumus looks interesting. I registered at the site, but haven't really explored yet. I see that Alcumus is "free for now" -- so I am thinking we should use it sooner rather later.