LPretty Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 (edited) I've been thinking a lot about this assertion. It seems to me (and I invite disagreement here, as I'm still learning and would learn from another perspective!) that the research is very solid in favor of homeschooling. I also understand the assertion that homeschooling isn't for everyone - mostly because not everyone has the time (some parents have to work full time) and not everyone has the desire. However, today something occurred to me. Did you know that the average per-pupil cost for public schooling is nearly $10,000? The average teacher makes a little over $50,000. Many homeschoolers homeschool five or six children. What if families that couldn't or didn't want to homeschool had the option to send their child to a personal tutor who would tutor no more than five-six children at once, and would do so for years (so the tutor wouldn't just be a teacher for one year, but would follow the child through his childhood, as long as the parents are satisfied with the work of the tutor). What if we had a voucher system that allowed parents to put the money that would go to public schools toward this "personal tutor," which would be as close to homeschooling as you can get without having the child's family doing the teaching? The tutor would thus earn what he or she earns teaching public school, but the job description would be different. Essentially, the tutor's job would be to do what homeschooling parents during the "school" portion of the day. Parents who like unschooling could send their child to an unschooling tutor. Parents who want their child to be taught formally throught the classics could find a tutor with that teaching style. Of course, parents who can homeschool themselves could - and could even invite other students to join them if they have capacity - but parents who couldn't would have the option of using voucher money to hire a tutor. Do you all think this would work? Do you attribute the success of homeschooling to the individualized attention and love the child gets (as a former teacher myself, I know that teachers do grow to love their students, and can only imagine that it would be even more true if teachers stayed with their children for many years)? Or do you think the fundamental success of homeschooling is that parents are the teachers? Edited July 19, 2011 by LPretty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucy the Valiant Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 I honestly believe that educational success is a combination of (A) parents who value education and (B) the quality of the education those parents are able to procure for their children. The sad truth is that (for a wide variety of reasons) some parents simply Do. Not. Care. No matter how excellent and personal the education given to their children might be, the children (**IF** they adopt their parents' values) are not going to be educationally successful. (The reverse side of that is the number of kids who DO manage to get a GREAT education out of a not-so-great system; their parents value education, and it shows.) I think a private-tutor-voucher system would be of most value to parents who VALUE education but are not financially able to procure a GREAT education for their children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vonfirmath Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 My friend has, on a couple of different occasions, homeschooled the child of a friend alongside her own kid. In both cases she discovered that the other child's parents did NOT enforce getting the work done that was not done "during the day" and thus that her "homeschooling" efforts were stymied by the lack of support of the other parents. So the advantages of homeschooling as a lot to do with the parents caring about their kids education. A voucher won't solve that :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 I agree with the other two posters. I've known a tremendous number of people who have hired tutors in the past just to help their children with public school work, but in the end, were not supportive of what the tutor was trying to accomplish. Additionally, the government - though it does not like to be held accountable for anything - likes accountability and one-size-fits-all programs and agendas. So, since the objectives and methods of individual tutors vary greatly, I think the whole concept would be rejected. Faith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In The Great White North Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Gee, now I know why our taxes are so high. :glare: Our high school has the option for kids from other towns to "tuition in" at $17,000 a year! It is cheaper to rent a house in town than to pay tuition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheryl in NM Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 I've been thinking a lot about this assertion. It seems to me (and I invite disagreement here, as I'm still learning and would learn from another perspective!) that the research is very solid in favor of homeschooling. I also understand the assertion that homeschooling isn't for everyone - mostly because not everyone has the time (some parents have to work full time) and not everyone has the desire. However, today something occurred to me. Did you know that the average per-pupil cost for public schooling is nearly $10,000? The average teacher makes a little over $50,000. Many homeschoolers homeschool five or six children. What if families that couldn't or didn't want to homeschool had the option to send their child to a personal tutor who would tutor no more than five-six children at once, and would do so for years (so the tutor wouldn't just be a teacher for one year, but would follow the child through his childhood, as long as the parents are satisfied with the work of the tutor). What if we had a voucher system that allowed parents to put the money that would go to public schools toward this "personal tutor," which would be as close to homeschooling as you can get without having the child's family doing the teaching? The tutor would thus earn what he or she earns teaching public school, but the job description would be different. Essentially, the tutor's job would be to do what homeschooling parents during the "school" portion of the day. Parents who like unschooling could send their child to an unschooling tutor. Parents who want their child to be taught formally throught the classics could find a tutor with that teaching style. Of course, parents who can homeschool themselves could - and could even invite other students to join them if they have capacity - but parents who couldn't would have the option of using voucher money to hire a tutor. Do you all think this would work? Do you attribute the success of homeschooling to the individualized attention and love the child gets (as a former teacher myself, I know that teachers do grow to love their students, and can only imagine that it would be even more true if teachers stayed with their children for many years)? Or do you think the fundamental success of homeschooling is that parents are the teachers? I love this idea! I've said it for years! I think homeschooling success comes from a combination of low student:teacher ratio and a teacher that is personally invested in the children. Of course, if helps that homeschooled children get to learn at their own pace but I view that as a natural result of low s:t ratio and an invested teacher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melinda in VT Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Is this per-average-pupil cost or average per-pupil cost? Are they counting the costs of special needs students? It's not uncommon for homeschooling families to send their special needs students to public school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angela in ohio Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 The average cost is $10,000, but that doesn't mean it costs $10,000 to educate each child. Dh has many students in his school who cost many, many times that. That drives the average up. For some children, school is the only safe place they know. They are fed their only meals there, they are safe from abuse there for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 I don't like the idea. While I won't send my kids to public schools I do think they serve a valuable service for a lot of kids. A system like this might well drain away the best talents from the schools. Also, who will certify and determine what the tutors teach? If the public will be paying for them you can bet the government will want a say in that. If they're dictating qualifications and standards for tutors how long before they make the leap over the shrinking gap to dictating the same for homeschoolers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Is this $10,00 per year or per K-12 career? I ask because by the time we are done, we will have spent close to if not just more than $10,000 for a K-12 education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FO4UR Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 It's an interesting idea, I'm just wondering about the practicality. Truth be told a lot of parents rely on school to be a daycare if nothing else because the parents have to work and can't afford childcare. For some children, school is the only safe place they know. They are fed their only meals there, they are safe from abuse there for a while. :iagree: Public schools are not just about education...not even *primarily* about education. In terms of actual education, I think your idea is a good one. The reason we won't see it happen here is b/c schools are not about education. I wish we could have public-funded daycare, and call it such...a separate entity from the public schools. I would like to see a good voucher system in place. It seems parents and teachers have the least power to control what goes on in the child's education, and yet they are the ones who receive all the blame when things go wrong. Give teachers control over their own classrooms (They DO have professional degrees, right???), and give parents control over what classroom their child attends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginevra Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 I've been thinking a lot about this assertion. It seems to me (and I invite disagreement here, as I'm still learning and would learn from another perspective!) that the research is very solid in favor of homeschooling. I also understand the assertion that homeschooling isn't for everyone - mostly because not everyone has the time (some parents have to work full time) and not everyone has the desire. However, today something occurred to me. Did you know that the average per-pupil cost for public schooling is nearly $10,000? The average teacher makes a little over $50,000. Many homeschoolers homeschool five or six children. What if families that couldn't or didn't want to homeschool had the option to send their child to a personal tutor who would tutor no more than five-six children at once, and would do so for years (so the tutor wouldn't just be a teacher for one year, but would follow the child through his childhood, as long as the parents are satisfied with the work of the tutor). What if we had a voucher system that allowed parents to put the money that would go to public schools toward this "personal tutor," which would be as close to homeschooling as you can get without having the child's family doing the teaching? The tutor would thus earn what he or she earns teaching public school, but the job description would be different. Essentially, the tutor's job would be to do what homeschooling parents during the "school" portion of the day. Parents who like unschooling could send their child to an unschooling tutor. Parents who want their child to be taught formally throught the classics could find a tutor with that teaching style. Of course, parents who can homeschool themselves could - and could even invite other students to join them if they have capacity - but parents who couldn't would have the option of using voucher money to hire a tutor. Do you all think this would work? Do you attribute the success of homeschooling to the individualized attention and love the child gets (as a former teacher myself, I know that teachers do grow to love their students, and can only imagine that it would be even more true if teachers stayed with their children for many years)? Or do you think the fundamental success of homeschooling is that parents are the teachers? There are several reasons why I would not agree with this idea. 1) Simply taking a child out of the public school system does not equal that school requiring $10,000 less to operate. Taking five children out of the public school system does not equate to the school now needing $50,000 less to operate. 2) Another problem with giving vouchers is that I do NOT want to take government money to educate my kids. This totally blows the whole element of freedom that I cherish. Even if initially the government "promised" that people electing to use vouchers would be free to choose their education, it would not stay that way. It would be no time at all before someone would object to vouchers being used by tutors who teach Creation or The Lord's Prayer or what-have-you. They would scream violations of church/state separation and vouchers would immediately be shackled the same as public school is. 3) I personally believe the success of homeschooling is dependent on the parents, not just "small class size." There is nothing on earth similar to the investment of a committed homeschooling mom. I don't believe that can be easily replaced by "just anyone" who professes to love kids and who knows a lot of stuff. I feel the same way about infant care by full-time nannies. Though anybody can clean a baby's tushie and feed them a bottle, a full-time nanny is a poor substitute for a full-time committed mother. Lastly, I don't see homeschooling as merely an education-delivery system. it is a lifestyle. If a family doesn't want the lifestyle that homeschooling means, I'd rather they didn't homeschool. I've known families who do odd blends of homeschooling, such as mostly a nanny does the schoolwork, and from what I've seen anecdotally, it doesn't work. IMO, those children would be better off in a public school than for the parents to stick to a model that doesn't mesh with their work/life goals. Homeschooling truly is not for everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeeBeaks Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 The average cost is $10,000, but that doesn't mean it costs $10,000 to educate each child. Dh has many students in his school who cost many, many times that. That drives the average up. For some children, school is the only safe place they know. They are fed their only meals there, they are safe from abuse there for a while. :iagree: That average means that lots of kids are taking less than that to educate. And some are requiring much, much, much more to educate if they are special needs in various senses of the word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPretty Posted July 19, 2011 Author Share Posted July 19, 2011 Wow - What interesting responses! Thanks everyone. I did some searching to try to find the difference between Special Ed and mainstream spending, and didn't come up with much (admittedly, I didn't search long, so if anyone finds something more recent, please share!). But here is what I did find: http://www.csef-air.org/presentations/KS%20SE%20presentation%203-1-06.pdf If you go to slide 26, it shows the difference in expenditures between Special Education and regular ed students with no special needs. This estimates the average regular ed student to cost a over $6,000 per year, per student (in 1999-2000, so it's probably gone up since then). If that is the case, it would take too many students to pay a teacher what they can earn in a public school setting. Hmm. Still thinking and listening... :bigear: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CariS Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 There are several reasons why I would not agree with this idea. 1) Simply taking a child out of the public school system does not equal that school requiring $10,000 less to operate. Taking five children out of the public school system does not equate to the school now needing $50,000 less to operate. 2) Another problem with giving vouchers is that I do NOT want to take government money to educate my kids. This totally blows the whole element of freedom that I cherish. Even if initially the government "promised" that people electing to use vouchers would be free to choose their education, it would not stay that way. It would be no time at all before someone would object to vouchers being used by tutors who teach Creation or The Lord's Prayer or what-have-you. They would scream violations of church/state separation and vouchers would immediately be shackled the same as public school is. 3) I personally believe the success of homeschooling is dependent on the parents, not just "small class size." There is nothing on earth similar to the investment of a committed homeschooling mom. I don't believe that can be easily replaced by "just anyone" who professes to love kids and who knows a lot of stuff. I feel the same way about infant care by full-time nannies. Though anybody can clean a baby's tushie and feed them a bottle, a full-time nanny is a poor substitute for a full-time committed mother. Lastly, I don't see homeschooling as merely an education-delivery system. it is a lifestyle. If a family doesn't want the lifestyle that homeschooling means, I'd rather they didn't homeschool. I've known families who do odd blends of homeschooling, such as mostly a nanny does the schoolwork, and from what I've seen anecdotally, it doesn't work. IMO, those children would be better off in a public school than for the parents to stick to a model that doesn't mesh with their work/life goals. Homeschooling truly is not for everyone. :iagree: Said much better then I could have, and much nicer when it comes to #2. ;) ~Cari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diana B Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Lastly, I don't see homeschooling as merely an education-delivery system. it is a lifestyle. If a family doesn't want the lifestyle that homeschooling means, I'd rather they didn't homeschool. I've known families who do odd blends of homeschooling, such as mostly a nanny does the schoolwork, and from what I've seen anecdotally, it doesn't work. IMO, those children would be better off in a public school than for the parents to stick to a model that doesn't mesh with their work/life goals. Homeschooling truly is not for everyone. :iagree: This was my first thought. The OP asked if it is just the one-on-one or the parent. And it's even more than that. It's the ability to be at home, being taught by someone who loves you. There are many families who have more than 5-6 kids who homeschool and turn out exceptional students. Obviously it's not just 'class' size. It is a lifestyle. The idea that education and learning do not end when school lets out and the books are closed. You can start up a thread and ask this forum to share their experiences of non-book learning and we'd have an encyclopedia going. If you are hiring someone to teach your child, this attitude toward education and toward life are not (necessarily) going to be the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 :iagree: This was my first thought. The OP asked if it is just the one-on-one or the parent. And it's even more than that. It's the ability to be at home, being taught by someone who loves you. There are many families who have more than 5-6 kids who homeschool and turn out exceptional students. Obviously it's not just 'class' size. It is a lifestyle. The idea that education and learning do not end when school lets out and the books are closed. You can start up a thread and ask this forum to share their experiences of non-book learning and we'd have an encyclopedia going. If you are hiring someone to teach your child, this attitude toward education and toward life are not (necessarily) going to be the same. :iagree: Especially number 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterflymommy Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Where I live it is closer to $20,000 per student per year, yet we have one of the worst school districts you can imagine. 75% of students entering public city colleges from the city's "top graded" high schools need remedial math and reading instruction. The "tutor" idea is great... my local school district would spend more than 100k a year to have all my kids in their system. I'll take 30k please and hire an in house tutor. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 I'd rather see more alternative schools. Instead of standardising all schools, why not have different streams of education? There's a school in our city that runs traditional and Steiner streams. Perhaps more of that could be done. Rosie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdwinglips Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 In agreement with the idea that the parents' attitudes affect the results. I tutored different children in 2 different states. Most of the time I felt I was an overpaid babysitter hired to just get the kid's homework done with minimal trouble for the parents. When students really excelled, they had parents who were committed to their education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.Balaban Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 The issue with public education is very deep and complex. I know in some areas, the voucher system is in affect that allows a public school system student to attend a private school. This is mostly in urban areas. I agree with what the other posters have said about regulations, if a private tutor voucher was issued, the government regulations would trickle down- nullifying any bonus a tutor might provide. I did a big research project in college on homeschooling statistics, and I would be more than happy to share what I found with everyone. Based on research statistics, homeschooling isn't for anyone. Most families with children in public and private school nowadays are two-parent income families, or single-income families where the only parent is working. In urban areas, where children could benefit the most from a "homeschooling" environment- it is simply not an option. Not all parents are responsible, and proactive about their children care and well-being. (Please do not misunderstand me, I am not insinuating that all inner-city parents are bad parents!!) I agree with the other posters, homeschooling is a lifestyle and a huge commitment, and as someone pointed out- sometimes the only kid is safe is at school. Makes me sad to say, but it is true. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPretty Posted July 20, 2011 Author Share Posted July 20, 2011 A. Balaban - I'd be interested in seeing the research if you are comfortable sharing it. Thanks, everyone for your thoughts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 I don't like the idea. While I won't send my kids to public schools I do think they serve a valuable service for a lot of kids. A system like this might well drain away the best talents from the schools. Also, who will certify and determine what the tutors teach? If the public will be paying for them you can bet the government will want a say in that. If they're dictating qualifications and standards for tutors how long before they make the leap over the shrinking gap to dictating the same for homeschoolers? :iagree: You will find a lot of homeschoolers are openly hostile to the idea of taking money from the government because it would probably result in more government oversight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aelwydd Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Well, there are also those of us who are only hs'ing for the interim, because of a medical issue, or because it allows us more time to pursue interests such as French classes or ice skating classes. But, when we move in a year or so, we fully intend to have ds matriculate back into public school. We feel it is the best way for ds to connect with his new community and make friends. Also, I received a very good education from my ps experience, even though I had the occasional bad teacher and almost completely uninvolved parents. I would match my education against any of my hs'd peers and consider myself every bit as informed (probably more so) and educated as they. So, I don't feel that ps, as a system should just be abandoned. Several decades ago, the US had one of the best ps systems in the entire world. It can and does serve many children, who would not otherwise receive any education at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 But, when we move in a year or so, we fully intend to have ds matriculate back into public school. You better not matriculate away from the WTM boards though.:glare: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twoforjoy Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 The issue with public education is very deep and complex. I know in some areas, the voucher system is in affect that allows a public school system student to attend a private school. This is mostly in urban areas. And, in general, the results are not good. I know that a large study was just done in Detroit showing that students in charter schools (not exactly the same as a voucher system, but something promoted by "school choice" proponents) perform the same or worse than students in the public school system here. There is simply no evidence to back the contention that a voucher system or more "school choice" would improve education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iquilt Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Technically this is already offered if you consider things like K12 (which is completely paid for in some states). Yes the parent has to facilitate and be there, but it seems as if most of the organizing and planning is all done. :iagree: I've met many families in this last move to our new neighborhood who homeschool with K12 because of problems at school. If you ask me, there are plenty of choices out there with a SAHM homeschooling her own children being just one of many that works for families. I have come to see homeschooling as a lifestyle choice for our family but it is not for everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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