Teacher Says Not All "Sex With Student" Stories Should Be Treated Equally

[Sputterduck]

Additionally, do we know that either of these people were students at the martial arts studio? Or that the man in questioned outranked the woman? What if she were the senior student? Would he have to be obedient to her?

 

Tara

 

No, we don't know. I originally said I *hope* that was not the case. Sex mixed with a power situation is not a great thing.

 

 

And, of course, no one means for the obedience thing to ever go that far. But it happens. In schools, in the whole Catholic church scandal, in martial arts schools. Even though *you* weren't, many young people are vulnerable to those in charge. You can't deny that. Even many adults are. That's why it's inappropriate for a boss to have sex with the people under him/her.

[AmyTompkins]

My dad has a black belt in Tae Kwon Do. He also teaches Pentjak Silat, which is Philippine stick fighting. I talked to him a few minutes ago, and he said in no way is the "obedience to a higher rank" thing taught as, implicitly or explicitly, "you must do whatever anyone of a higher rank tells you." He said, in fact, that a student who were so reflexively obedient and thoughtless that she would be pressured into doing something "dishonorable" (his word) would be a poor student.

 

Additionally, do we know that either of these people were students at the martial arts studio? Or that the man in questioned outranked the woman? What if she were the senior student? Would he have to be obedient to her?

 

Tara

 

Actually, I think my point was lost. You are either disciplined or you are not. You had mentioned that the martial arts do not intend for the discipline taught in class to extend to all of life and I was disagreeing with that. A disciplined nature is a disciplined nature across the board.

 

There is a possibility, perhaps a likelihood, that my 59 year old single father might be physically tempted by a 18 year old senior "woman" in high school. I would expect him to show some restraint and self respect. Our family would certainly disapprove, perhaps yours would not.

[Haiku]

You had mentioned that the martial arts do not intend for the discipline taught in class to extend to all of life and I was disagreeing with that.

 

No, I didn't. I said "obedience," not "discipline." These are not one and the same.

 

Tara

[AmyTompkins]

No, it absolutely should have been statutory rape, but because 14yo "loved" the guy, the police wouldn't do anything. By the time anybody found out, she was 16yo & this had been going on for a couple of years.

 

Gross. That is what I mean about the adult (or if they are both adults, the more mature 50 something compared to a high school student. Legal coming of age has nothing to do with actual maturity) having the discipline to resist the temptation. I would expect more wisdom and maturity with age and life experience... so perhaps it is not reasonable to say that this case is "more" creepy because he man was 50+ rather than in his late twenties. But I certainly expect more restraint and better decisions from a person who has been around for more than half a century. Just gross!

[DarlaS]

I am really disturbed this took place in a martial arts studio. There are huge power dynamics going on in martial arts schools. Huge. I hope that he was not higher rank than she was. Teaching obedience to higher ranks is a big deal in any school I've ever seen that was at all traditional. Obedience plus sex plus a huge age difference is freakishly inappropriate. I just hope that wasn't the case.

 

This makes me glad to have had no experience with these schools that you describe as "traditional martial arts". :001_huh:

 

Certainly you didn't mean obedience to people that are higher ranking students? Respect, yes. Obedience? This brings to mind the whole "submissiveness" culture (the kind that leaves a bad taste in your mouth).

[DarlaS]

I think it's probably a valid argument for there being nothing perverted, predatory, or sick about it. Now, we can say that it doesn't fit with our modern lives, and that's fine. But, unless we are willing to write off vast swathes of men across history as dangerous, creepy pedophiles because they were in relationships with teenagers, then I think we need to acknowledge that we are setting up arbitrary cultural boundaries--which all cultures do, and which is fine--rather than protecting children from some great harm.

 

Just because something was an accepted practice historically is NOT a good argument for it not being wrong. That would be opening up quite a few cans of worms no? (Slavery, bloodletting, torture, foot binding...)

 

Now keep in mind, I'm not talking about 18 year olds or even 16 year olds. I was replying to Tony, who spoke of Mary and Joseph. Mary us believed by some to have been as young as 12 years old. (I'm not going into my beliefs here, but was addressing the comment as I felt he may have intended it.)

[tntgoodwin]

I think it's probably a valid argument for there being nothing perverted, predatory, or sick about it. Now, we can say that it doesn't fit with our modern lives, and that's fine. But, unless we are willing to write off vast swathes of men across history as dangerous, creepy pedophiles because they were in relationships with teenagers, then I think we need to acknowledge that we are setting up arbitrary cultural boundaries--which all cultures do, and which is fine--rather than protecting children from some great harm.

 

I'm not comfortable with calling teens "young girls," either. My son has a 5-year-old girl friend over today: she is a "young girl." A 16-year-old teenager is NOT a young girl, but a young woman, and it's demeaning to refer to her as such. And, yes, it does matter, because when we talk about older men marrying "young girls," it certainly does matter whether the "young girl" in question was six years old or sixteen years old, and if we don't see a distinction there, then I'm not really sure what to say.

 

 

Exactly. Thank you for understanding my point.

 

However, if he broke the terms of his contract, he absolutely should face those consequences.

[twoforjoy]

Just because something was an accepted practice historically is NOT a good argument for it not being wrong. That would be opening up quite a few cans of worms no? (Slavery, bloodletting, torture, foot binding...)

 

I agree, but if we want to talk about "universal morality," this would be a VERY hard sell, given that it's been prevalent, as far as I know, across cultures and for most of human history. I think we could argue very rightly and clearly that sexual interactions with prepubescent children are wrong, period. But when it comes to consensual sexual relationships between two people who have gone through puberty, then I think it's very, very difficult to start making sweeping judgments.

[Sputterduck]

This makes me glad to have had no experience with these schools that you describe as "traditional martial arts". :001_huh:

 

Certainly you didn't mean obedience to people that are higher ranking students? Respect, yes. Obedience? This brings to mind the whole "submissiveness" culture (the kind that leaves a bad taste in your mouth).

 

In my art, the rule was if a higher rank asks you to do anything and you have to move more than 3 steps, you run. If a higher rank is carrying anything you have to offer to do it. etc etc etc

 

And, no, you weren't allowed to question what you were told. I got in trouble a lot at first for that. Of course, none of that is meant to have anything to do with sex, but people abuse power. And, yes, a student would be expected to say no. But again, people use power incorrectly and people act weakly sometimes. Anything like that would be really dishonorable, of course.

 

No, that doesn't sit will with Western society. It was good for me, though.:001_smile:

[Sputterduck]

I agree, but if we want to talk about "universal morality," this would be a VERY hard sell, given that it's been prevalent, as far as I know, across cultures and for most of human history. I think we could argue very rightly and clearly that sexual interactions with prepubescent children are wrong, period. But when it comes to consensual sexual relationships between two people who have gone through puberty, then I think it's very, very difficult to start making sweeping judgments.

 

It's my understanding that most 16 year olds haven't finished puberty. Boobs and periods don't mean that puberty is finished. It's a long process.

 

Come to think of it, I was 19 before my boobs grew though I got my period at 12. I also kept growing in height until I was 21. Surely at 16 I was nowhere near being physically finished. Neither were my friends.

 

I did have a friend in third grade though who was in puberty... boobs, periods, and all. So... would it be okay for a teacher to sleep with her?

[Mrs Mungo]

I did have a friend in third grade though who was in puberty... boobs, periods, and all. So... would it be okay for a teacher to sleep with her?

 

That question has already been asked and ignored twice by my count.

[Sputterduck]

That question has already been asked and ignored twice by my count.

 

I didn't ask her that last time, I don't think. It's okay if I address different people.

 

I think it makes a great case for puberty not being the be all and end all of when someone should be able to sleep with someone.

 

In fact, I think brain maturity matters more.

Edited June 24, 2011 by Sputterduck

[tntgoodwin]

Well, personally, I think you should be married to someone to sleep with them.

[Sputterduck]

Well, personally, I think you should be married to someone to sleep with them.

 

So do I. But age matter there, too.

[Mrs Mungo]

I didn't ask her that last time, did I.

 

LOL, no. I asked that question and so did Sis. If someone else asked, then I missed it.

 

I think it makes a great case for puberty not being the be all and end all of when someone should be able to sleep with someone.

 

I agree.

 

In fact, I think brain maturity matters more.

 

That is a tricky area since that doesn't happen until 25. It's why men's insurance rates go down after that.

[Sputterduck]

LOL, no. I asked that question and so did Sis. If someone else asked, then I missed it.

 

 

 

I agree.

 

 

 

That is a tricky area since that doesn't happen until 25. It's why men's insurance rates go down after that.

 

I'm sorry. I totally misread your intent above.

 

That's actually a good tangent. Car accidents are the leading cause of death in teens directly because of their immaturity! If they can't even drive safely, how can they navigate sex safely? And let's not forget that even with the utmost precautions, HIV still happens. Pregnancy still happens. Herpes still happens. HPV and cervical cancer deaths still happen. Many teens cannot stand to have their fun messed up by thinking about the future and possible consequences. And should those consequences happen, and boy do they, they generally aren't capable of handling them well.

[Mrs Mungo]

I'm sorry. I totally misread your intent above.

 

That's actually a good tangent. Car accidents are the leading cause of death in teens directly because of their immaturity! If they can't even drive safely, how can they navigate sex safely? And let's not forget that even with the utmost precautions, HIV still happens. Pregnancy still happens. Herpes still happens. HPV and cervical cancer deaths still happen. Many teens cannot stand to have their fun messed up by thinking about the future and possible consequences. And should those consequences happen, and boy do they, they generally aren't capable of handling them well.

 

Well, what you describe is directly related to the part of their brain that is not fully mature.

[silliness7]

Of course you can be a jack*ss and still hold a teaching license. That point is proven every day.

 

It might not be illegal, but it is unethical as cited above by Mrs. Mungo. He doesn't deserve to have his license back, not because he's a jack*ss, but because he had sex with a student. Like, Mungo said, "cut and dry".

 

 

Side note: For those of you that believe he should not have his teaching credentials revoked, would you feel the same way if it were your 18 year old daughter/son?

 

Well, if it were my 18yo daughter I'd be having much more concern about her values, goals, morals, poor judgment, etc.etc.etc. And heaven forbid they were "in love" and getting married then YES I would want him to have his job back. ;)

 

I think the better question is if my 18yo daughter was a student in his classroom. Could I be comfortable in *that* situation knowing his ummmm....proclivities.

[Mrs Mungo]

I think the better question is if my 18yo daughter was a student in his classroom. Could I be comfortable in *that* situation knowing his ummmm....proclivities.

 

Honestly, at this point? I'm just glad I homeschool. These threads are making me ill enough as it is.

[Sputterduck]

Well, what you describe is directly related to the part of their brain that is not fully mature.

 

Yes, I know. And that's my point. They aren't mature and shouldn't be seen as new adults. They aren't finished growing up yet.

 

Of course, I also think a lot of it is our culture. Because, again, the teens in the native group I work with are very, very mature in comparison but their biology isn't different. They make far better decisions! They don't whine and complain that their mommy won't let them have any fun. They don't expect to go out on a regular basis to hang out or party. They expect to work their arses off every day and do it without complaint and even with smiles on their faces.

 

In some ways, I think our culture holds kids back. Yet at the same time, many of us like to pretend that they're ever so mature and just like adults. They're farther from adults than their age mates in many parts of the world. It's almost embarrassing when you see what our teens could be like.

 

Sorry. I'm rambling at this point.

[DarlaS]

It's my understanding that most 16 year olds haven't finished puberty. Boobs and periods don't mean that puberty is finished. It's a long process.

 

Come to think of it, I was 19 before my boobs grew though I got my period at 12. I also kept growing in height until I was 21. Surely at 16 I was nowhere near being physically finished. Neither were my friends.

 

I did have a friend in third grade though who was in puberty... boobs, periods, and all. So... would it be okay for a teacher to sleep with her?

 

Right. Which is why so many of those 12 yo brides died in childbirth or shortly thereafter.

[Greta]

Yes, I know. And that's my point. They aren't mature and shouldn't be seen as new adults. They aren't finished growing up yet.

 

Of course, I also think a lot of it is our culture. Because, again, the teens in the native group I work with are very, very mature in comparison but their biology isn't different. They make far better decisions! They don't whine and complain that their mommy won't let them have any fun. They don't expect to go out on a regular basis to hang out or party. They expect to work their arses off every day and do it without complaint and even with smiles on their faces.

 

In some ways, I think our culture holds kids back. Yet at the same time, many of us like to pretend that they're ever so mature and just like adults. They're farther from adults than their age mates in many parts of the world. It's almost embarrassing when you see what our teens could be like.

 

Sorry. I'm rambling at this point.

 

Don't be sorry, I found your post really interesting. On a practical level, I wish I had a better idea of how I should interact with my daughter in her teen years, what things I should expect of her, how to protect her appropriately without treating her like she's still a child. It concerns me a lot. So if you have any advice for me . . . :bigear:

[Sputterduck]

Don't be sorry, I found your post really interesting. On a practical level, I wish I had a better idea of how I should interact with my daughter in her teen years, what things I should expect of her, how to protect her appropriately without treating her like she's still a child. It concerns me a lot. So if you have any advice for me . . . :bigear:

 

I keep planning on asking all sorts of questions about their parenting. Maybe tomorrow when they are eating I'll sit down and try to find an opening for parenting questions. I'm in charge of a whole camp now anyway, so I really need to be sitting down and talking to people anyhow. When my job was to stand there and hand out food, I just kind of did my job and didn't talk much. So I don't have an answer today, but if they open up tomorrow I'll tell you what they said.

[Greta]

So I don't have an answer today, but if they open up tomorrow I'll tell you what they said.

 

Cool! If you do get to talk to them, maybe you could start a new thread? I'm afraid I'll forget that this topic is buried in this one ! :)

[Sputterduck]

Cool! If you do get to talk to them, maybe you could start a new thread? I'm afraid I'll forget that this topic is buried in this one ! :)

 

Sure. I can do that.

[Haiku]

I did have a friend in third grade though who was in puberty... boobs, periods, and all. So... would it be okay for a teacher to sleep with her?

 

There is a difference between being an adolescent who has gone through puberty and a child who is going through puberty. So no, of course it would not be ok for an adult to sleep with a child. I don't consider those in late adolescence to be children.

 

Tara

[Haiku]

Yes, I know. And that's my point. They aren't mature and shouldn't be seen as new adults. They aren't finished growing up yet.

 

 

 

So should we increase the age of legal adulthood to 25?

 

Tara

[Sputterduck]

So should we increase the age of legal adulthood to 25?

 

Tara

 

Legal adulthood has to do with many more things than sex. I'm all for different ages for different things. I'm happy with the drinking age being older than 18. When should it be legal to have sex with someone? I have no idea. When can someone deal with the ramifications that do happen (physically, emotionally, and mentally)? It varies from person to person, of course, but 16 too young for our culture.

[pdalley]

There is a difference between being an adolescent who has gone through puberty and a child who is going through puberty. So no, of course it would not be ok for an adult to sleep with a child. I don't consider those in late adolescence to be children.

 

Tara

 

 

What about teens on the spectrum? They might appear more mature - they can converse with adults at length - but the general rule of thumb is that a person on the spectrum is roughly 3/4 of their chronological age emotionally.

 

See this is why I have a huge problem with assuming someone who has gone through the physical changes of puberty is ready for sex.

[elizabeth]

Or profoundly gifted children?? This one:glare: had the privilege of being taken to the symphony repeatedly by a 35 year old friend of the family. I was likely" provocative" for my ability to converse in full sentences and cello ability. Thanks for the PTSD you jackass. Sweet memories.

[pdalley]

Or profoundly gifted children?? This one:glare: had the privilege of being taken to the symphony repeatedly by a 35 year old friend of the family. I was likely" provocative" for my ability to converse in full sentences and cello ability. Thanks for the PTSD you jackass. Sweet memories.

 

 

:grouphug: My brother would probably be diagnosed with PTSD if I could convince him to get help.

[Marylou]

That's a bit tricky because there appears to be no such thing as universal morality.

 

Rosie

 

 

Things are not always as they appear.

[AmyTompkins]

Honestly, at this point? I'm just glad I homeschool. These threads are making me ill enough as it is.

 

Agreed. But I must admit I am shocked to find so many parents here think this is okay on any level!

[AmyTompkins]

No, I didn't. I said "obedience," not "discipline." These are not one and the same.

 

Tara

 

My apologies, I misread your statement.

[Haiku]

Legal adulthood has to do with many more things than sex. I'm all for different ages for different things. I'm happy with the drinking age being older than 18. When should it be legal to have sex with someone? I have no idea. When can someone deal with the ramifications that do happen (physically, emotionally, and mentally)? It varies from person to person, of course, but 16 too young for our culture.

 

My point is that 18 is a rather arbitrary age for someone to become an adult, but we have to set the threshold somewhere. We could move it up, down, and around for a variety of reasons but it would never suit everyone and meet everyone's needs. Everyone is individual, but we have to have a common standard. I am fine with 18, I stick by my belief that teenagers are capable of more than we allow from them in this culture (in myriad aspects, not just sexual), and I work in a beer and liquor store and I think it's ridiculous that someone can be sent to die for our country but can't have a beer. Teenagers are not the ones coming in trying to buy alcohol when they are already completely ripped. That would be the older people. *sigh*

 

Tara

[Sputterduck]

My point is that 18 is a rather arbitrary age for someone to become an adult, but we have to set the threshold somewhere. We could move it up, down, and around for a variety of reasons but it would never suit everyone and meet everyone's needs. Everyone is individual, but we have to have a common standard. I am fine with 18, I stick by my belief that teenagers are capable of more than we allow from them in this culture (in myriad aspects, not just sexual), and I work in a beer and liquor store and I think it's ridiculous that someone can be sent to die for our country but can't have a beer. Teenagers are not the ones coming in trying to buy alcohol when they are already completely ripped. That would be the older people. *sigh*

 

Tara

 

I agree that teens *should* be more capable that what we allow. But in reality there is a terrible pattern of selfishness and immaturity and rebelling just for the fun of rebelling. The fact that they should be capable of far more doesn't change how they are turning out these days. Us suddenly deciding they are capable of adult things doesn't suddenly make them grow up. Reality is reality and today's reality is awful. The reality for most 16 year old boys and girls is if they accidentally (or on purpose as has been the latest trend) conceive they aren't capable of raising a baby yet. If you can't raise a baby, you shouldn't be having sex. And if you can raise a baby, you can also handle marriage and managing a household and holding down a full time job. If they can't do that, they have no business whatsoever having sex.

 

And really, 18 is pretty young in today's culture to do any of that. I think we focus far too much on the arbitrary age the law sets regarding adulthood. Making a law that says 18 is the cutoff for adulthood doesn't make people suddenly into adults at 18. They might legally be adults, but that doesn't mean they are capable of acting like an adult.

 

I think we focus far too little on the consequences of a morally liberal stance on sex.

Edited June 25, 2011 by Sputterduck

[Slartibartfast]

I did date an instructor in high shool. He was more of a tutor than a teacher there were several students from the nearby college that worked with the band. We had met before he taught at my school, we had an activity in common in which we were peers.

 

We were both goofy and immature. But we still went out of our way to make sure he didnt get in trouble.

 

I find it funny, as immature as we were at the time that we had more foresight and self control than a 51 year old. What an idiot.

Edited June 25, 2011 by Sis

[Joanne]

I was a teacher in TX. I signed the same agreement. I'll tell you: it *never* occurred to me that it meant students outside of my school. Now, I admit, I didn't give it much thought, lol, being married, monogamous, & preferring men my own age, but still...

 

!

 

I teach in Texas. It would never occur to me to consider or evaluate whether it was "okay" or "legal" to sleep with a high school student of any school. It seems a no brainer that the answer is no. It wouldn't even be a quesiton/consideration to me.

[DawnM]

I don't think anyone is saying, "This is great, I sure hope my 18 year old daughter goes and sleeps with a 51 year old teacher."

 

Somehow that is where I see you going with your comments. That is NOT where we are going, so please don't put thoughts or words into our mouths.

 

Most of us who are saying he didn't do anything LEGALLY wrong, nor did he break the contract if the contract indeed did say a student at his school or in his district.

 

What I don't want to see is work places making up rules for some and not for others after the fact.

 

If he did indeed break his contract (I still don't understand the wording), then he needs to suffer the consequences. However, if he did not break his contract, he certainly didn't break the law, he should not have lost his license or his job.

 

What he did was MORALLY wrong. But unless he broke any actual WRITTEN rules, he shouldn't have the consequences he received.

 

Dawn

 

 

 

 

 

Agreed. But I must admit I am shocked to find so many parents here think this is okay on any level!

[AmyTompkins]

My point is that 18 is a rather arbitrary age for someone to become an adult, but we have to set the threshold somewhere. We could move it up, down, and around for a variety of reasons but it would never suit everyone and meet everyone's needs. Everyone is individual, but we have to have a common standard. I am fine with 18, I stick by my belief that teenagers are capable of more than we allow from them in this culture (in myriad aspects, not just sexual), and I work in a beer and liquor store and I think it's ridiculous that someone can be sent to die for our country but can't have a beer. Teenagers are not the ones coming in trying to buy alcohol when they are already completely ripped. That would be the older people. *sigh*

 

Tara

 

I agree. No single age is going to suit everybody in every situation. As parents we need to know our children, which means spending time with them and interacting with them and helping to mold their character. Too many parents don't make the time, sadly.

 

I am thinking the reason why teenagers don't come into the liquor store ripped is because they cannot buy alcohol in the first place? :) I mean, even with a fake I.D., all but the most brash underage person is going to be stone cold sober about trying to get around the law...

[AmyTompkins]

I don't think anyone is saying, "This is great, I sure hope my 18 year old daughter goes and sleeps with a 51 year old teacher."

 

Somehow that is where I see you going with your comments. That is NOT where we are going, so please don't put thoughts or words into our mouths.

 

Most of us who are saying he didn't do anything LEGALLY wrong, nor did he break the contract if the contract indeed did say a student at his school or in his district.

 

What I don't want to see is work places making up rules for some and not for others after the fact.

 

If he did indeed break his contract (I still don't understand the wording), then he needs to suffer the consequences. However, if he did not break his contract, he certainly didn't break the law, he should not have lost his license or his job.

 

What he did was MORALLY wrong. But unless he broke any actual WRITTEN rules, he shouldn't have the consequences he received.

 

Dawn

 

I apologize if you misread me. That is not what I am saying at all.

 

What I am saying is that no one here would wish that for their own daughter, most likely. Why? Because we care for them and don't want to see them get hurt or make poor decisions, etc... And the Mamas here, hopefully, will not have to deal with this situation because we spend time investing into our daughter's lives as homeschool parents. I was, and remain, a bit appalled that we can casually shrug our shoulders and turn away because this is not *our* daughter. Surely, if it were, I suspect even a "legal" 18 year old high school senior daughter living under our roof (which was probably the case for this other young woman) of ours would not be free to engage in sexual activity as she pleased. And if it had been with a 50-something year old man, I would hope that we, as Mothers, can agree that we would feel our daughter had been manipulated and taken advantage of by a grown man who should and does know better. The fact that she was aggressive and initiated it only suggests, to me, that she is likely lacking in parental guidance and supervision overall. As a Mama, I don't think that makes it "okay". Just because she is not my daughter doesn't make it okay. Just because she is looking for affection and approval in the wrong places certainly does not make it okay for this man to prey on her weaknesses. Period. And the audacity of insisting he should be able to continue to have more young, vulnerable, maybe even sexually aggressive 18 year old "women" under his care and guidance is absurd to me. And disgusting. Like I have said, you cannot legislate morality, but if you have no morals, I would prefer you don't intend to shape our next generation. Go pound salt, thank-you-very-much. Personally, I don't think any parent should be expected to have to deal with that. And on the taxpayers dime, even more offensive! The end.

[Joy at Home]

Agreed. But I must admit I am shocked to find so many parents here think this is okay on any level!

 

 

I guess my feeling is this. I don't feel there is anything okay with this. My hesitance to display outrage at this teacher does not mean I condone either of their behavior. My gut? Yes, this teacher is probably a pig with no self-control. Is he a predator? Who knows. I have not invested the time or energy to learn who these individuals are and the circumstances under which their "encounter" took place. I do agree rules are rules and he clearly broke his contract and should be fired.

 

Here's the thing, though. I am raising five daughters, and my greatest hope for them is that they grow into confidant, strong, women with a sense of self-worth and dignity. I would be more concerned with what is going on within this child's mind that she would involve herself in such unseemly behavior. Forget him. He's just one of millions of morally challenged men who would take advantage of an opportunity. Is that right? Of course not. Am I outraged? Of course not. I expect it. We live in a fallen world. It's a sewer out there.

 

Where I concentrate my effort is teaching MY child to think more of herself than that. To navigatate this sick world in a way that maintains her dignity. THE ISSUE IS THE CHILD, not the man. I don't waste my time being outraged at lurid behavior of others. I want to concentrate on the hearts and minds of my children. I want them to think better of themselves than that.

 

Of course I know not every young woman has the same advantages. I know we need to protect them from abusers. But, as sleezy as his behavior is, aside from enforcing his contract and firing him, I don't see what else should be done here.

 

Lisa

[AmyTompkins]

I guess my feeling is this. I don't feel there is anything okay with this. My hesitance to display outrage at this teacher does not mean I condone either of their behavior. My gut? Yes, this teacher is probably a pig with no self-control. Is he a predator? Who knows. I have not invested the time or energy to learn who these individuals are and the circumstances under which their "encounter" took place. I do agree rules are rules and he clearly broke his contract and should be fired.

 

Here's the thing, though. I am raising five daughters, and my greatest hope for them is that they grow into confidant, strong, women with a sense of self-worth and dignity. I would be more concerned with what is going on within this child's mind that she would involve herself in such unseemly behavior. Forget him. He's just one of millions of morally challenged men who would take advantage of an opportunity. Is that right? Of course not. Am I outraged? Of course not. I expect it. We live in a fallen world. It's a sewer out there.

 

Where I concentrate my effort is teaching MY child to think more of herself than that. To navigatate this sick world in a way that maintains her dignity. THE ISSUE IS THE CHILD, not the man. I don't waste my time being outraged at lurid behavior of others. I want to concentrate on the hearts and minds of my children. I want them to think better of themselves than that.

 

Of course I know not every young woman has the same advantages. I know we need to protect them from abusers. But, as sleezy as his behavior is, aside from enforcing his contract and firing him, I don't see what else should be done here.

 

Lisa

 

I am not sure what I might have said to give a different impression, but I wasn't suggesting that anything be "done" with this guy. I am not "wasting my time" being outraged at the situation. I do not think it is unique. My heart is broken for a girl/young woman who doesn't have enough self respect to avoid such a situation and who would not have the foresight at her age, regardless of the legality of it, to see the negative consequences or implications of her actions. I was mostly disturbed that we, as mothers (and at least one Dad as well :) ), were actually parsing whether it was in his school or not, a martial arts studio or not, a subordination issue or not, she lied about her age or not, she is wrecking more lives as we speak or not, he broke his contract or he did not, your cousin's uncle Billy Bob married a 20 year old wen he was 50, it wouldn't matter if he were a garbage man, and on and on and endlessly on....

 

Have we become so cold? I guess I expect us Mamas to be more maternal, homeschooling Mamas perhaps even moreso. I don't need to research the situation to know that this man preyed on her immaturity and vulnerability (even as she played the role of Lolita)... that makes him predatory in that situation. I don't know if he would ever do it again and I don't care. His arrogance in assuming he should be able to be in a position of influence (and obviously temptation) despite his transgressions is irrational. And it disturbed me to see how many Mamas, who would never want that for their own daughters and who would like feel much differently if it were in fact, their baby girl ("woman") were saying this jerkoff had a point and should be allowed to continue to shape young women outside the guidance of their parents.

[Nakia]

I guess my feeling is this. I don't feel there is anything okay with this. My hesitance to display outrage at this teacher does not mean I condone either of their behavior. My gut? Yes, this teacher is probably a pig with no self-control. Is he a predator? Who knows. I have not invested the time or energy to learn who these individuals are and the circumstances under which their "encounter" took place. I do agree rules are rules and he clearly broke his contract and should be fired.

 

Here's the thing, though. I am raising five daughters, and my greatest hope for them is that they grow into confidant, strong, women with a sense of self-worth and dignity. I would be more concerned with what is going on within this child's mind that she would involve herself in such unseemly behavior. Forget him. He's just one of millions of morally challenged men who would take advantage of an opportunity. Is that right? Of course not. Am I outraged? Of course not. I expect it. We live in a fallen world. It's a sewer out there.

 

Where I concentrate my effort is teaching MY child to think more of herself than that. To navigatate this sick world in a way that maintains her dignity. THE ISSUE IS THE CHILD, not the man. I don't waste my time being outraged at lurid behavior of others. I want to concentrate on the hearts and minds of my children. I want them to think better of themselves than that.

 

Of course I know not every young woman has the same advantages. I know we need to protect them from abusers. But, as sleezy as his behavior is, aside from enforcing his contract and firing him, I don't see what else should be done here.

 

Lisa

 

Beautiful post, Lisa!

[Sputterduck]

Cool! If you do get to talk to them, maybe you could start a new thread? I'm afraid I'll forget that this topic is buried in this one ! :)

 

Sorry guys. We only had moms of babies yesterday, so I didn't ask about parenting teens. There weren't even any grandmas there. I'll start a thread about it when I do get to ask some good questions about it.

[twoforjoy]

Legal adulthood has to do with many more things than sex. I'm all for different ages for different things. I'm happy with the drinking age being older than 18. When should it be legal to have sex with someone? I have no idea. When can someone deal with the ramifications that do happen (physically, emotionally, and mentally)? It varies from person to person, of course, but 16 too young for our culture.

 

Saying that people under 18 are too young to have sex--and that anybody who does have sex with them is a predator and should be branded as such--is to go against pretty much everything we know about human nature.

 

In all seriousness, has there been a society in all of human history in which the average person routinely waited until they were 18 or older to have sex? Over 21? I mean, you sound here like you'd be fine at making the legal age for sex 25. Is there a society in all of human history where anything but a small minority of people have waited until their mid-to-late 20s to begin having sex?

[twoforjoy]

I think we focus far too little on the consequences of a morally liberal stance on sex.

 

I don't think the issue is a "morally liberal stance on sex," but raising the marriage age quite dramatically.

 

AFAIK, the age at which people begin having sex has not gone down; if anything, it's gone up. What has changed is that people are getting married much, much later.

 

In less "morally liberal" cultures, people married and began having sex in their teens. I don't think you're going to find a society where there is a morally conservative stance on sex where people are putting off both marriage and sex until their mid-to-late 20s.

 

Just a few generations ago, getting married at 17 or 18 wouldn't have been aberrant at all, and most women marrying that age would have been marrying men in their 20s.

[Sputterduck]

Saying that people under 18 are too young to have sex--and that anybody who does have sex with them is a predator and should be branded as such--is to go against pretty much everything we know about human nature.

 

In all seriousness, has there been a society in all of human history in which the average person routinely waited until they were 18 or older to have sex? Over 21? I mean, you sound here like you'd be fine at making the legal age for sex 25. Is there a society in all of human history where anything but a small minority of people have waited until their mid-to-late 20s to begin having sex?

 

I don't know what the legal age should be.

 

On an... ethical? level I think each individual ought to wait until they can handle the consequences. That can't be enforced with laws. There are many more considerations here than legal ones.

 

My post that you quoted didn't state an age to enforce under the law. The point at which people ought to be free to have sex varies very widely. And, yeah, if someone is 42 and doesn't have a spouse and can't hold down a job or otherwise can't handle the consequences of sex, they shouldn't be having it. I'm not sure why anyone thinks that me making statements like that has anything to do with the minimum legal age.

Edited June 26, 2011 by Sputterduck

[Sputterduck]

I don't think the issue is a "morally liberal stance on sex," but raising the marriage age quite dramatically.

 

AFAIK, the age at which people begin having sex has not gone down; if anything, it's gone up. What has changed is that people are getting married much, much later.

 

In less "morally liberal" cultures, people married and began having sex in their teens. I don't think you're going to find a society where there is a morally conservative stance on sex where people are putting off both marriage and sex until their mid-to-late 20s.

 

Just a few generations ago, getting married at 17 or 18 wouldn't have been aberrant at all, and most women marrying that age would have been marrying men in their 20s.

 

I think sometimes people underestimate the average age around the world of first having sex.

 

"For women, the countries with the youngest average age of first intercourse are in central Africa and the Czech Republic with an average age of 15. The countries where women's first sexual experience comes at age 20 and older are Egypt, Kazakhstan, Italy, Thailand, Ecuador, and the Philippines."

 

"For men, the earliest average age of first intercourse is 16 in Brazil, Peru, Kenya, Zambia, Iceland, and Portugal but the highest average age is 19 in Italy. A male in the U.K.'s average age of first intercourse is 18."

 

http://geography.about.com/od/culturalgeography/a/geographyofsex.htm

 

I do think that marriage comes younger in cultures where sex outside of marriage is taboo. I am *fine* with that. People want to man up and be responsible so they can take part in the one of the joys of being an adult.

 

Our culture is really, really screwed up. People are getting married later, which is good because our kids mature very late. But it's bad because it means that people are having more and more sex in situations where the natural outcome (babies) isn't welcome and often can't be handled very well. I wish our kids would mature faster and then they could handle marriage at a more practical age in a healthy way and then the very normal and healthy outcome from having sex would be a happy addition instead of a problem to be dealt with.

Edited June 26, 2011 by Sputterduck

[Sputterduck]

And let us not forget that more sex outside of marriage generally means more partners in peoples' lifetimes. That comes with the spread of more STDs.

 

Condoms don't protect well against things like herpes and HPV. Heck condoms break sometimes anyway, so whatever you are using them to protect yourself against happens sometimes anyway. You are taking a risk no matter what you do.

 

With all the cautions in the world HIV happens, other STDs happen, cervical cancer happens, and babies happen. You would think that with all that the rational people of the world would be emphasizing less partners instead of promoting sexual freedom. Sex isn't free. It comes with a cost, sometimes very high.

Edited June 26, 2011 by Sputterduck