Math for gifted/dyslexic 6th grader?

[myboyluvsdinos]

Hi there,

I have a gifted/dyslexic rising 6th grader that I've home-schooled for the past 3 years. Up to this point, we have used Math-U-See, with fairly good results. (My ds has slow processing speed and working memory and tends to forget where he's at in a problem when they have many steps.)

 

I'm considering doing another year of MUS, but I'd also like some opinions from others on good math programs, preferably something that can take us through high school. We prefer more secular programs.

 

It sounds like a lot of people use Teaching Textbooks, however I've also heard from some folks that in the end it wasn't a solid preparation for college, even though their kids liked it. So that causes some hesitancy on my part.

 

Any other recommendations?

 

Thanks!

Carolyn

[Testimony]

From what I have seen with Math-U-See, it offers subject all the way up to Calculus. I have seen veteran moms in my local support group using it for Calculus. One child even used it in conjunction with his community college courses. So, my thought is if this program is working why change?

 

Blessings in your homeschooling journey.

 

Sincerely,

Karen

http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony

[myboyluvsdinos]

Thanks, Karen. That's a valid question. I guess I'm under the impression (and it may be incorrect) that not many people use MUS through high school, and that it may not look good on a transcript? Not sure if that's the case...

[8filltheheart]

My personal opinion is that MUS is a very weak high school math program. It is OK for understanding the basics/fundamentals, but it does not go into much depth or require a lot of understanding.

 

(FWIW, I have taught MUS alg to 5 kids and use it as pre-alg followed by another full yr of alg.)

[PeterPan]

Carolyn, don't forget to post over on the special needs board as well, where this can get beyond slamming MUS. As someone in your shoes, I understand your reluctance to change. How are his facts doing? For us (big sigh here), math seems to involve sort of a do, do it again, do it again routine. And each time we go at it with the next step up of curriculum. I *think* what you might find is that he's extremely good at problem solving, even if he's sluggish at regular computation. So if you pair something like the Singapore CWP books (do they call them CWP now? that's what I have) with your more basic math program, it sort of balances out. You can plod along with your regular program but add in supplements like the Math Olympiad problem books that will let him exercise his gifts as well. Dyslexics tend to be unusually good problem-solvers.

 

We did A-D of RightStart, 3-6 and part of 7 of BJU, supplements like I was telling you about, some of the Fred books, and are now doing Math Mammoth. We've finished MM5, and now we're doing MM6. Oh, we started HOE. We seemed to hit a wall with her last summer, so we set it aside to come back to later. We've also fiddled around with the Dolciani pre-algebra. Personally, I think the dolciani (which I was taught with in school) is going to turn out to be too conceptual (all that set theory and stuff) and not enough into application. But Foerster is so boring it makes me think of vomiting. I may use it, but mercy I wouldn't be excited. (Bought and sold it, bleh.) But we're total opposites. In the meantime I have the rest of HOE, that dolciani pre-algebra we can finish, Russian Math 6, and some novel little workbooks (sort of pre-algebra brainteasers) to use with her.

 

I guess you could say I just try to keep it spicy. I found an Ivan Moscovich book at the library sale, so I'm excited about that. Just mix it up a bit, and you'll be fine. Have you done any testing yet? That might put your mind at ease. In the past we've done the CAT, which while not incredibly thorough is at least painless, cheap, and slightly informative. This year we did the Woodcock Johnson, which is done with a tester. So in 1 1/2-2 hours you have complete results and feedback. The test has no ceiling, so it's a more informative way to test. It yields suggested instructional ranges for each category. To the extent the feedback matched what my gut said, I found it very stress-relieving.

 

BTW, to get the facts faster, I gave her a multiplication table in a sheet protector. We've done lots of other things with some benefit. It's sort of hard to tell what is processing speed and what is simply not having the connections yet to be fast with their facts. I think we have both going on, but they definitely are two separate things. There are some things you can do to work on processing speed and working memory, but that's a discussion for the SN board. For us with facts, it was seeing them over and over again (literally seeing) as well as using them in contexts. It just took lots of time, much longer than you would have thought or preferred. That's why we've done the same things so many different ways.

[PeterPan]

Another tip of the day. Read posts by LoriD. She gave me this gem a while back that really, when the subject is the thing that sucks their brain, you need to do that thing *last*. That's so the opposite of what I had always been told. However for us it has turned out to be welcome advice. We're actually fiddling around with the idea now of not even doing math during the day, it drains her that much. Instead she has permission to do it at night, right after supper. That way she's energized for the stuff *she* likes to do the rest of the day, kwim? As long as it gets done, I'm flexible.

 

I just got the BrainGym book, haven't even looked at it yet to try anything. And I got some Mozart to try with her. It's supposed to do something magical with that part of the brain too.

 

We're now to the stage where I'm getting a lot that "I don't know how I did it" thing. I guess opinions vary on this, but I stop and make her go back to figure out the steps. That expressive language thing I think hinders them in getting out their thoughts. And with the most recent episode, it turned out she was using a really simplistic thought process (not what the author had intended) that got her there but didn't set her up to be able to do the harder problems. So that getting into their head thing and getting out what's inside is interesting. It means that I'm slowly giving in that math (and some other things) AREN'T gonna get independent any time soon. Not that I sit with her all the time, but she, because of these issues, needs a lot more of me rather than being able to cut the cords like with some kids. Nan in Mass has had some good posts on this.

 

In other words, when I look for inspiration, I pick these people on the boards who have kids like mine in some way (nan, Lori, CynthiaOK, Corraleno, etc. etc.), and I spend an evening reading their posts. If you go to Search, Advanced Search, then you can put in the user name, hit for posts instead of threads, narrow it down to specific boards, and start reading. This has been extremely helpful to me, because you start to see the person as a whole.

Edited June 23, 2011 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

Mercy, did any of that answer your question? LOL I think what I'm saying is that while I grant some curricula are better than others, the more important thing is to do it, make sure they understand it, and diversify as much as possible to stretch them. Then TEST. If you have the test scores, you have the test scores. If you don't have the test scores, Houston, we have a problem. But it's not like you have to be mystified. And if your less-loved program (TT, MUS, whatever), is giving you the test scores, I wouldn't blink an eye. Just add in some diversity with harder problem-solving stuff to take advantage of his gifts. But that's where I'm at. There's this huge shift that occurred with me where I went from looking at this as a bunch of can'ts (which sometimes it is) to a different list of cans. Your job is to flesh out the cans and take advantage of them, while plodding along to work on the can'ts. Sometimes going forward helps. Sometimes, like what happened with us, the can'ts hold you back so you CAN'T do the work fast enough to go forward, no matter what your cans are. So we just play around with those two sides.

[ondreeuh]

My son is bright and learns math easily, but forgets easily too. We used CLE, which has very little Christian content. The steps are small, and the emphasis on review really helped him.

 

He requested all-secular materials this year, so we are using Holt Middle School Math, starting with Course 1. This is the source of Thinkwell's 6th grade math - in fact the instructional videos are identical. I think the videos do a great job of demonstrating the concepts visually and they are available for free on the go.hrw.com website. They have a "Know-It Notebook" that walks the student through the steps of solving problems just like the examples in the book and videos. My plan is for ds to read the textbook aloud, watching the videos and practicing the sample problems in the know-it notebook as he goes along. I will start out doing this with him and move him to doing it independently. I am confident this will prepare him well to learn math in a traditional classroom setting eventually.

 

I bought the homework/practice workbook which provides problems of each type that align with the textbook. So instead of my son having to keep track of which problems are assigned and copy them onto paper, he can just do all the problems on the worksheet. He will be attending a community school next year and he will bring this homework sheet to do in class. This homework/practice book doesn't have review, so he will still do those out of the textbook. I will probably photocopy the review at the top of a page, and he can work out the problems on the bottom of the page.

 

I chose not to go with Thinkwell because the program offers very few problems in each lesson and does not include much review. I did buy the teacher's resource CDs for Course 1 so I can print quizzes and tests. Unfortunately the rest of the discs won't install on my computer :(. Holt has 3 courses of middle school math (1-3 cover 6th-8th grade) but you can skip course 2. After Course 3 you can do the high school Algebra-Geometry-Algebra 2 sequence. The videos are available for all levels. My dd has done Holt math in high school and I think it's an acceptable long-term plan.

 

Over the summer we are doing Daily Math Practice and Kumon Word Problems (one page per day) to keep skills fresh. Word problems are his biggest weakness due to the dyslexia, but he is getting better!

[8filltheheart]

Carolyn, don't forget to post over on the special needs board as well, where this can get beyond slamming MUS. .

 

For the record, my analysis of MUS is not a slam. The original poster asked a question and I gave an honest assessment of the quality of the program based on having taught it multiple times as well as supposedly equivalent level material which is significantly more advanced.

[myboyluvsdinos]

Gosh! Thanks everyone for the thoughtful comments -- I REALLY appreciate it. I'm new to this community and it's exciting to be on a board where there's some responses! :001_smile:

 

I test him using the IOWA each year. His math scores have gradually gone down a bit, but I was attributing that to MUS using a different sequence than a lot of programs, as well as his dyslexia. His Total Math score has gone from 2nd to 5th grade respectively: 97%, 85%, 96%, 92%. I'm not overly worried about his scores or the variability -- they seem fine.

 

I'm a bit scared of moving around a lot with math programs, because I don't want to miss something by switching programs. I'm not knowledgeable enough myself to know if I've missed something. He generally tolerates math and enjoys it somewhat, although he struggles with the longer-process problems. So that's why I'm trying to find a single program to make it work! But I can see that "spicing" it up would make it a bit more interesting, so that might be an option.

 

I did post this issue on the special needs board, and no one responded favorably to MUS. So that's why I posted over here -- to see what programs you guys like!

 

OhElizabeth -- thanks for all the time you spent answering my question! I really appreciate your thoughts! BTW, what is HOE? I'll have to look up some of those posters you mentioned...

 

8FillTheHeart -- What programs do you like?

 

Andrea -- thanks for mentioning all those programs -- I'll look them up for more info.

 

OK. Thanks so much everyone for the feedback. Please keep it coming! I have a lot to learn. :001_smile:

 

Carolyn

[PeterPan]

Sorry, I don't remember your post on the SN board. I hang out there a lot, because it's a place where you can say my kid is LD and smart at the same time and people know what you mean. :)

 

I think as long as you have something that as working, and as long as your test scores stay good (which they are), you could stay put and just add supplements. I wouldn't change. You change when it's NOT working, not when it is. I'm saying this, because MUS might be working for reasons that you don't even yet perceive. You go changing and screw that up. So in your shoes, as long as it's WORKING, I would keep going.

 

HOE = Hands-on Equations.

 

Have you noticed that one_l_michele on the SN boards uses MUS with her 3 boys? Maybe she just didn't respond in your thread?

 

Look, to be clear, I'm *not* saying MUS is somehow equivalent to Singapore or Dolciani or something, as clearly it's not. But you have to consider the situation as a whole. If the specific dc in question benefits from the explanations in MUS (which admittedly are pretty unique), then it would be unwise to change. If the dc naturally extends the concepts to new situations and is testing well, then again you have to wonder why the change. TT is another one of those curricula where you get mixed feedback, precisely for that reason. I would hate for you to change out of fear when it's working.

 

BTW, I think Sue in St. Pete here on the boards used MUS up until algebra and then went into Foerster, didn't she? I forget what level you're at, but it's not like you have to stay with MUS forever. You can stay with it now, while the explanations are making things click for this foundational stuff, and switch to something more challenging for algebra if you prefer. It's not an either or.

[lovemykids]

Wise words, Elizabeth.

 

Another thought- what if you used the new curriculum of choice...and just have MUS on standby for the explanations?

 

My 12 year old dd most definitely falls into the Visual Spatial/ Dyslexic/ ADD category. Since she was strong in math, almost anything and everything worked pretty well for her (in math) up until this past year. Teaching Textbooks (although she did start to loathe both TT and the computer for math), along with LOF, seemed to work for a couple of years before we switched into Chalkdust . But she got stuck somewhere in the middle of CD and now we are left wondering what to do. I was actually considering trying Saxon because of all of the review, but I highly doubt Saxon will work for her; just as it didn’t years ago. She doesn’t even like the page layout (and since she is visual that is important)!

 

We are not going to back to Teaching Textbooks because neither one of us could take it anymore (even though she was doing well). My youngest dd, however, is doing very well with Teaching Textbooks and I am going to let her continue until pre-algebra (per her request).

 

My new thoughts for my VS/ADD child- try Horizons Pre-Algebra with MUS CDs before going into Jacobs Algebra.

 

 

I hope some of this made sense. I haven’t been able to sleep properly the past few days. Good luck teaching your dyslexic type kiddo. They may be difficult to teach at times, but they are extremely gifted, and it’s a blessing to watch their minds at work. (well, when their minds are working) :lol:

:tongue_smilie:

[rafiki]

.

[PeterPan]

My dd has asked to use a calculator (which a few of the MM exercises allow for), and I only allow it where the exercises specify. Our big hurdle was getting the computation faster, and I think at this point a calculator would have gotten in the way. Usually what happens with her, when she gets bogged down, is that she has missed some trick or has an error that has made the problem not work out nicely. Most math problems at this level result in straightforward answers. If they're bogged down, they're doing something wrong. So that has actually been another stage of learning for her, to self-regulate and recognize when a problem is taking too long and that she needs to ask for help. Glory be, when she does that we can get through it!

 

But yes, the fatigue from overmuch computation is VERY real. I try to be merciful, but I also recognize that the only way to get there is to get there. I sneak it in other ways too, again trying to increase that flexibility and speed. Right now I have her doing the Fast Finishers e-books from that Scholastic sale. They're nothing overly difficult, but it's amazing how often she'll look at that page (which should take 2 minutes once she figures out the trick), and totally flip out, saying it will take FOREVER. Well no chickadee, it's wanting you to use estimation, that thing you did back in 4th grade as a matter of rote, without understanding why. So I don't want to short circuit that process of self-regulation in her work, that process of learning to ask when she needs help.

 

None of that probably has any bearing on why Michele is using calculators, lol, but I thought I'd throw it out.

[Stacy in NJ]

Many stop at the pre-algebra level. If that is a priority, though, I'd look at Saxon, BJU, TT, and Singapore. Singapore uses a different sequence of topics (geometry is intergrated) and offers less support than the others.

 

 

Hi there,

I have a gifted/dyslexic rising 6th grader that I've home-schooled for the past 3 years. Up to this point, we have used Math-U-See, with fairly good results. (My ds has slow processing speed and working memory and tends to forget where he's at in a problem when they have many steps.)

 

I'm considering doing another year of MUS, but I'd also like some opinions from others on good math programs, preferably something that can take us through high school. We prefer more secular programs.

 

It sounds like a lot of people use Teaching Textbooks, however I've also heard from some folks that in the end it wasn't a solid preparation for college, even though their kids liked it. So that causes some hesitancy on my part.

 

Any other recommendations?

 

Thanks!

Carolyn

[gracyomalley]

I don't know it this helps, but ds 11 is densely dyslexic and good at math/music/science (I don't know about gifted...his LD makes that so hard to see....). We have done a combo of TT (last year did 7) which being audio, and having less writing, allowed more independence, but wasn't conceptual enough on its own, MM (doing parts of 6 right now), and LOF. Kid loves Fred, but does point out that the reading makes it harder for him - at least he CAN read it now!!! The MM is semi- independent, but not completely.

 

Math takes a LONG TIME here - facts are all there, but processing speed is S>>>L>>>O>>>>W>>>>>>>>>so sometimes even he thinks he doesn't remember how to do something. Using more than one program has helped break out from the "I don't know how to do it" mode for us.

 

I have been dithering about pre-algebra for him....Looking at lots of stuff....including MUS. I THINK we'll finish MM 6, do LoF prealgebra with biology (and maybe the next one too), and possibly TT prealgebra too, haven't fully decided about that one....then I'm not sure for algebra.

 

We have (he and I) decided that he is more comfortable really understanding stuff than rushing ahead - and he'd requested to use challenging level texts but not neccessarily go at pace....filling in with others as we go. I think this is part of or a product of his processing speed - he likes to go in deep to things....common with dyslexics, and I think that's why he doesn't really like TT that much - his sister, on the other hand, loved it because it was "easy", and is only now realizing that she's not always learning enough there....

 

Look at samples with your child, have them do them....he's old enough to have some say - and you might be surprised. I do feel that you can go back and forth between programs easily, so wouldn't worry about that - math is a universal language once you understand it - when kids have trouble with different books/approaches its because they haven't really "gotten" the math in the first place!

Erin

[Sebastian (a lady)]

What level of math is your ds working with? Not just MUS level, but what sort of math (pre-algebra, decimals, fractions, ect).

 

Have you seen the Key To ... series? We used these when we were in transition this winter to beef up computational skills before pre Algebra.

 

There was a point where I had my kids make cards that outlined the steps to solving a problem, as well as a card that listed the steps for "checking their work". This helped them to look at the problem and think about what was being asked for and how to go about solving it.

 

I'm not experienced with MUS at all, so I won't comment on it.

 

We've used Saxon from K through Algebra 1/2. For us, it was a good fit and I liked that there was daily fact practice through the middle years as well as lots of review in the practice problems. However, those same features are so tedious for others that the program is intolerable. (Ironically, when I started requiring my kids to do EVERY problem instead of only odd numbered problems, their speed increased, probably because they were seeing each type of problem more often.) I know of many families who have used Saxon successfully through high school (with good college acceptances).

 

Another thought is to have him write a couple word problems every day that use the day's skill. That might help him with understanding how the math describes a real world situation. We used the Singapore Challenging Word Problems books in the past and found they were really good. But they can be quite challenging, so you might want to drop down several levels below your son's grade level.

 

One other idea for the test scores. I read a book by a classroom teacher who had his math students work a math problem and then also come up with the other answers that a test writer would put on a multiple choice test in order to catch students who did the wrong process. I did that for a while with my kids. It was a good way to make them think about what the common pitfalls on a problem would be (for example, not carrying when adding). [i don't remember exactly which book this was in, but it was probably Teach Like Your Hair's On Fire ]

[Sebastian (a lady)]

One other idea, though it might need to be something you read together, are books like the Sir Cumference books by Neuschwander or the math books by Tang. Maybe Schoolhouse Rock.

 

I'm thinking of math books that have a heavy graphic component that would help give him a mental picture rather than just a word description. With my kids, humor does a lot to glue concepts into their heads.

[rafiki]

.

[myboyluvsdinos]

This discussion has been so helpful to me -- thanks to all of you for your time.

 

I think I will stick with MUS for one more year and then re-evaluate. The 6th grade wraps up the last of the basics before algebra/pre-algebra start. I will test him on the IOWA again next spring and see where he's at. Since MUS does use a different sequence than other programs, I'm wondering if he'll pull ahead a bit when it all finally comes together and all topics are finally covered in 6th grade.

 

Also, we are doing neurofeedback this summer and fall, and that will be very interesting to see how/if it affects his math. Like I said, he tends to lose track of what he's doing in problems with many steps. I have found that watching the DVD together, and then basically me reteaching the concept works better. Mr. Demme explains the concept a bit too quickly for my guy's processor!

 

Also, I have found that it works much better to not leave his side until he's reached a certain level of automaticity with the new concept. Depending on how hard it is, I may help him through 4-5 problems before that occurs. I actually sit silently and watch him do the problems, only saying something if he asks, or if I see he's making a mistake. Once he reaches that certain level, then he tells me he can do it, and can get through the lesson fairly quickly. But if I don't do that, he's EXTREMELY slow and makes lots of mistakes. Too bad I didn't figure this out until about April of this year! :tongue_smilie:

 

I am making a list of the math programs to research over the next year so that I can make a better decision at the end of 6th grade. We'll see then -- I may actually stay with MUS if he's still testing well.

 

Thanks again!

Carolyn

[lovemykids]

Another thing for people to consider- these types of kids often hate programs that they have to do on the computer. Again, every child is different so it’s hard to say.

 

FYI. My VS child had some signs of dyslexia; but she could "read" in K (a little):lol:, she just took a long, long time to gain fluency. When she did, she took to reading quite well. She also never had the typical problems with writing. In fact, she has the best handwriting out of all of my children and she loves to write. She did have speech delay when she was younger and she has other symptoms. Her gifts show up in the areas of science and art.

 

Best wishes with your decisions. Trial and error is really what it takes. Most programs, as someone pointed out, only go up to pre-algebra. And many of the few that do go through high school are not secular. Again, good luck! We are all here to support you, so don’t be a stranger. ;)

[onaclairadeluna]

My gifted dyslexic 7th grader adores his Art Of Problem solving books. He went from liking math and being pretty good at it to finding his passion. I would strongly recommend AOPS to any gifted young mathematician.

 

Your child would need to be a pretty good reader. Otherwise I think the program would be fine (if not superior) for a dyslexic learner. One aspect of my son's dyslexia is he can't memorize rote steps. The fact that in AOPS everything is taught at such a deep level really helps him understand concepts. For example they PROVE the quadratic formula. They don't just show it.

 

The other really great thing in AOPS is that the problems are written so well that DS doesn't get bogged down in computational drudgery.

[lisabees]

Just want to add that my dyslexic 15 year old loves Khan Academy when he needs explanation. Because the only visual is the black background and the numbers etc, there is little distraction. Salman Khan also has a soothing, comforting voice.

[lovemykids]

My gifted dyslexic 7th grader adores his Art Of Problem solving books. He went from liking math and being pretty good at it to finding his passion. I would strongly recommend AOPS to any gifted young mathematician.

 

Your child would need to be a pretty good reader. Otherwise I think the program would be fine (if not superior) for a dyslexic learner. One aspect of my son's dyslexia is he can't memorize rote steps. The fact that in AOPS everything is taught at such a deep level really helps him understand concepts. For example they PROVE the quadratic formula. They don't just show it.

 

The other really great thing in AOPS is that the problems are written so well that DS doesn't get bogged down in computational drudgery.

 

Thanks for sharing this, even though I’ve seen this program before, I feel like I am looking at it for the first time. We just might test the waters with AoPS when we get through with some review.

 

 

Just want to add that my dyslexic 15 year old loves Khan Academy when he needs explanation. Because the only visual is the black background and the numbers etc, there is little distraction. Salman Khan also has a soothing, comforting voice.

 

 

Good point. :)

[SailorMom]

My son used MUS until we got to Zeta. We started it, but for some reaon - it just didn't click like the other years.

 

We actually used LoF for a year, then went to Saxon for more practice - but finished this year's pre-algebra with Transition Mathematics - which he liked much more than Saxon.

 

The problem with dyslexics, that I have found, is that they frequently learn different concepts in math in completely different ways - so that one text mwill not work all year. It can be a real pain!