Ugh! I am going in CIRCLES with making a decision on Latin for my rising 4th grader!!

[Halcyon]

I had settled on LfCA. Really, I had (see? It's even in my siggie!!). We've finished GSWL and my son loved it: loved the straightforward nature of it, the translations, the vocab, the lack of busywork.

 

Anyway, after much research, I decided LfC A would be up next, and I have purchased all the components. I finally sat down with it today to go through it and...I don't know...:confused: Something about the way it's laid out, it feels busy to me. And it feels like it "jumps" from one thing to another...am I crazy? Study, Apply, Chant, Vocabulary, Grammar....Ugh.

 

I keep revisiting Henle...I've browse the pages on googlebooks and the lessons just look so...serious. Clear. Straightforward. Well-defined goals for each lesson. Helpful diagramming of sentences. English to Latin translations in addition to Latin to English. I hadn't considered Henle before this week, but I feel like it would work for my son if we work through it slowly and with attention.

 

Help me decide what to do. Am I just being indecisive?

Edited June 10, 2011 by Halcyon

[wapiti]

As you know, I'm not familiar with LfC, so I can't compare it. Here are the reasons I chose Henle, if it might help you:

 

(1) lots of translation - for my dd, using the knowledge is the best way to learn it. She is not much of a rote memorizer, even though she created her own little tunes for the endings (I have her fill out a blank ending chart at the start of each lesson - that's it, just writing it out once per day. No chanting.) Plus, as you saw with GSWL, translating is the fun of Latin.

 

(2) limited vocabulary (compared to Wheelock, e.g.) - my understanding (maybe from the preface?) is that Henle limited the vocabulary intentionally so as not to overwhelm. I think this is one of the aspects that makes it accessible to students younger than those for whom it was written.

 

(3) straightforward, systematic organization - you can see this from the TOC, if you've looked at it. The first thing it does is march right through all five declensions. (Maybe you could call it a mastery program, LOL)

 

(4) efficiency - I didn't want to spend year(s) in other Latin programs and then later start something that required no prior knowledge anyway - I don't know how many years I'll be hs-ing dd. Why not simply start it now, I asked myself. While dd would have been overwhelmed if we hadn't done GSWL first, it was all she needed.

 

I think GSWL and Henle complement each other nicely. I think you'll find that Henle isn't all that unlike GSWL. It's just on a larger scale. Before we started it, it seemed a little intimidating, but once we actually got started, it's not.

 

You may have to play with the pace a bit, in terms of how much you include in each lesson. So, if it seems "too much" at first, simply back off a bit in how many exercises you're doing per day. He'd probably sail through the first few lessons on the first two declensions, and that may build confidence. It may feel more difficult when he gets to new material (probably starting with the 3rd declension).

 

I have trouble coming up with downsides to Henle. The format, with its smaller font, is probably the big one, but I'm getting around it with re-typing. DD can read the book, but she has a harder time writing on a separate paper. (I'm not sure whether it's a vision thing, but I wouldn't be surprised, considering her history. She's just a lot more resistant to a separate paper. Also, she is afraid of translating paragraphs, so I often break up paragraphs into numbered sentences.) I thought she'd have issues with war, battle, etc. but she doesn't.

 

Have you looked at First Form? My understanding is that it doesn't include much in the way of translation, but perhaps you could add translation from Henle. It has a nice, modern format. I have been tempted occasionally, by the clean white pages, but we're sticking with Henle ;). Just thought I'd throw that possibility out there, in case you could use another choice. I think First Form was designed for late elementary age range.

 

Good luck with your decision :)

[Mom0012]

As you know, I'm not familiar with LfC, so I can't compare it. Here are the reasons I chose Henle, if it might help you:

 

(1) lots of translation - for my dd, using the knowledge is the best way to learn it. She is not much of a rote memorizer, even though she created her own little tunes for the endings (I have her fill out a blank ending chart at the start of each lesson - that's it, just writing it out once per day. No chanting.) Plus, as you saw with GSWL, translating is the fun of Latin.

 

(2) limited vocabulary (compared to Wheelock, e.g.) - my understanding (maybe from the preface?) is that Henle limited the vocabulary intentionally so as not to overwhelm. I think this is one of the aspects that makes it accessible to students younger than those for whom it was written.

 

(3) straightforward, systematic organization - you can see this from the TOC, if you've looked at it. The first thing it does is march right through all five declensions. (Maybe you could call it a mastery program, LOL)

 

(4) efficiency - I didn't want to spend year(s) in other Latin programs and then later start something that required no prior knowledge anyway - I don't know how many years I'll be hs-ing dd. Why not simply start it now, I asked myself. While dd would have been overwhelmed if we hadn't done GSWL first, it was all she needed.

 

I think GSWL and Henle complement each other nicely. I think you'll find that Henle isn't all that unlike GSWL. It's just on a larger scale. Before we started it, it seemed a little intimidating, but once we actually got started, it's not.

 

You may have to play with the pace a bit, in terms of how much you include in each lesson. So, if it seems "too much" at first, simply back off a bit in how many exercises you're doing per day. He'd probably sail through the first few lessons on the first two declensions, and that may build confidence. It may feel more difficult when he gets to new material (probably starting with the 3rd declension).

 

I have trouble coming up with downsides to Henle. The format, with its smaller font, is probably the big one, but I'm getting around it with re-typing. DD can read the book, but she has a harder time writing on a separate paper. (I'm not sure whether it's a vision thing, but I wouldn't be surprised, considering her history. She's just a lot more resistant to a separate paper. Also, she is afraid of translating paragraphs, so I often break up paragraphs into numbered sentences.) I thought she'd have issues with war, battle, etc. but she doesn't.

 

Have you looked at First Form? My understanding is that it doesn't include much in the way of translation, but perhaps you could add translation from Henle. It has a nice, modern format. I have been tempted occasionally, by the clean white pages, but we're sticking with Henle ;). Just thought I'd throw that possibility out there, in case you could use another choice. I think First Form was designed for late elementary age range.

 

Good luck with your decision :)

 

What age are you using Henle with and did you use anything before it? Do you have know Latin yourself? I never realized just jumping into Henle was an option, but I know nothing about Latin, so I'm wondering if that would work here.

 

Lisa

[Narrow Gate Academy]

We really like Latin for Children here. It's a solid program, but it's fun as well. I have a schedule posted on my blog which schedules the DVD, primer, activity book, and history reader. Maybe it would help give you an idea of a typical week. HTH

[mamapjama]

Usually I can figure these out or look on the sticky :) But what is GWSL?

[kwg]

Henle from memoria press? I thought that was for older students? I am intrigued :bigear:

 

(We use lively latin though so I am no help:lol:)

[Mom0012]

Usually I can figure these out or look on the sticky :) But what is GWSL?

 

I think it is Getting Started With Latin.

 

Lisa

[Halcyon]

Henle from memoria press? I thought that was for older students? I am intrigued :bigear:

 

(We use lively latin though so I am no help:lol:)

 

 

I was looking at this Henle.

[Halcyon]

We really like Latin for Children here. It's a solid program, but it's fun as well. I have a schedule posted on my blog which schedules the DVD, primer, activity book, and history reader. Maybe it would help give you an idea of a typical week. HTH

 

 

Thank you! I will go and look. It's very different from GSWL, so I may just need to get used to it.

[Halcyon]

 

I have trouble coming up with downsides to Henle. The format, with its smaller font, is probably the big one, but I'm getting around it with re-typing.

 

This is the only issue I'm seeing too, and there's that pdf that someone linked me to with the exercises retyped out for easier use.....I may just order it and see what I think.

[JadeOrchidSong]

I read the reviews of Henle on Amazon just now. It seems that the vocab is rather limited.

But what the second post says really intrigues me.

My kids and I thrive on translation. I can't imagine having no translation to do. So I think I will like Henle for its heavy translation. We are so used to the 10 sentence a day translation in GSWL.

 

On the other hand I already bought LfC A. I think I will give it a fair try before looking for another program. If we like it enough we will just continue with the series. But it is good to know something about other programs in case we need to switch.

 

I also wonder how old the child should be to start Henle.

 

I wonder if OP can give LfC A a try to see if she and dc like it.

[hsmom27]

Well DS did LfCA last year (as an 8yo). He didn't have any problem with it, but he hated it. I think part of that was that to DVDs really rush through pronunciation; so he never really felt like he was saying things correctly. He also found the activity book really boring.

 

This year we've just started Latin Prep 1 and I'm planning on taking 2 years to get through it. We're really focusing on vocabulary and pronunciation and DS loves that there is translation right at the beginning. I've looked through the whole thing and I think as long as you're willing to go at the child's pace, you could start at 8. Just a thought.

[RootAnn]

Just to clarify: Memoria Press's "Form" series (First Form, Second Form, Third Form, etc.) is supposed to be basically the-same-as-Henle broken down into four sequential courses that are easier to teach & learn from for non-Latin-types. There is some translation (not as much, also different from GSWL) - as you can see from sample wookbook pages.

 

Memoria Press also has Study Guides to go with Henle. Their Henle page says you can start it as early as fifth or sixth grade with a Latin background & as early as seventh for those with no prior Latin.

 

That said, I have a friend who uses & recommends LfC. I'd give it a serious try before buying something else or just abandoning it. Sometimes, it is getting used to a different style that causes us some heartache but the kids don't even notice. :001_smile:

[wapiti]

I think it is Getting Started With Latin.

 

Yes - http://www.gettingstartedwithlatin.com/faq.php

 

What age are you using Henle with and did you use anything before it? Do you have know Latin yourself? I never realized just jumping into Henle was an option, but I know nothing about Latin, so I'm wondering if that would work here.

 

Henle from memoria press? I thought that was for older students? I am intrigued :bigear:

 

I am using Henle I ("First Year Latin") with dd10. We started mid-way through 4th grade, when I pulled her out of school (in January of this year). I had some Latin in high school, but I barely remember it. We did GSWL last year (which only took a few months), and then she reviewed GSWL just prior to starting Henle.

 

Henle was written by a Jesuit priest, Fr. Robert Henle, and published by Loyola Press, first in 1945. A new copy is available at Amazon. It was written for 9th graders with no prior Latin. Here is the Google books preview - take a good look at the translations http://books.google.com/books?id=FSAeb6bNqesC&printsec=frontcover&dq=henle+latin&hl=en&ei=RyLyTamPCKrXiAKq1bTrBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CEwQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false Henle also wrote books for subsequent years of high school Latin (sometimes denoted Latin II, III, etc., or second year, third year, etc.)

 

It is not easy, but it is intellectually challenging in a fun sort of way. It is meaty. IMO, it is certainly an option for many kids prior to high school. The question is when. I don't think there are any hard cut-offs for when Henle would and would not work - it'll depend on the individual student. OP's student is a rising fourth grader, tends to be accelerated, loves Latin and has finished GSWL. I think it'll work for that case because it's not very different from my dd10. However, that might be a less-common case - I don't know whether all students would be ready for Henle at that time. Others might wait until 5th or 6th. I think most 6th/7th graders would not have a problem with Henle. You can find your own pace. There is some flexibility. Certainly younger students may need to move slower than older ones, and younger students would do well to have some background (I thought GSWL was perfect for this - brief but substantial). Henle has a ton of exercises, some of which are "essential" and not to be skipped; others are optional. How many exercises are necessary will depend on the student. Naturally, younger students may not be able to sit through a Latin lesson for as long as an older student. All these things will affect the pace.

 

The other issue is that the font in Henle may be a little small for some kids. Others might be fine with it. The format is quite literally "old school" (see the google book preview above). I re-type the exercises for dd with lines for writing on, kind of making a workbook. She really prefers that. (As I write this, I am wondering whether I could purchase the PDF from google ebooks and then print it - it appears to be for sale for $8.98. Does anyone know whether google ebooks can be printed? Really dumb question because I've printed plenty of free google ebooks, just never a paid one. I'm thinking about that because other vintage-type PDFs that I have printed have come out with a much larger font size, on the 8.5x11 paper, than the book itself, which is on smaller paper. ETA: Unfortunately it appears that purchased google ebooks are not available for printing, unlike free google ebooks. :tongue_smilie:)

 

If you learn Latin right along with your child, I think Henle I is doable for those without a knowledge of Latin. I don't remember much and I'm re-learning Latin as we go along. However, when we get to the next level, i.e., when we finish Henle I, whatever reading-type of course dd moves on to, whether Henle Latin II or something else, I'll probably be looking at on-line courses rather than trying to handle that myself at home.

 

There are resources for Henle sold by Memoria Press, Seton and MODG. There may be others. I have the MODG syllabi (which I primarily use for quizzes and tests), the Seton answer key (more complete than Fr. Henle's answer key), the Seton pronunciation CD (which we've never used), and a little teacher tip book by Sister Mary Jeanne, by Loyola Press, which is not necessary but an inexpensive, nice addition. Along with Henle Latin I, you'd need the Grammar book - the text, grammar book and answer key are the absolute necessities - the rest are extras. We also use Laura Berquists' ending charts (see Adoremus Books). There are other resources available on-line, such as flash cards, etc.

 

There are a few others around here who have used Henle I with "younger" students, who may be able to offer better advice on an appropriate age to start it. Maybe they will pipe in :)

Edited June 10, 2011 by wapiti

[Halcyon]

Thank you. Right now, I am going to order Henle 1 and Grammar, and the answer key from Seton. I am going to have my son do the first few lessons in both Henle and LFC (well, he won't be writing in the LfC book, just in case we decide to sell it!) We'll evaluate how they both go and make a decision together. I am going to guess and say he'll prefer Henle, but we'll see.

 

If any others have used Henle with a younger child, please pipe in :)

[hmschooling]

VISUAL LATIN!! ;) They are making level two now. LOVE IT!!

[crazyforlatin]

Thank you. Right now, I am going to order Henle 1 and Grammar, and the answer key from Seton. I am going to have my son do the first few lessons in both Henle and LFC (well, he won't be writing in the LfC book, just in case we decide to sell it!) We'll evaluate how they both go and make a decision together. I am going to guess and say he'll prefer Henle, but we'll see.

 

If any others have used Henle with a younger child, please pipe in :)

 

As I mentioned in your other post, we were able to use Henle right after using GSWL and we started when DD was kind of young, probably around 4.5 and she's not gifted, so in my mind I really think a child of any age can tackle it but it would have to be an older child if there hasn't been any other book before it. She just happened to be an early reader, so reading English or reading Latin was not really a problem by that time. I think it would have been a lot harder if we didn't use GSWL. The transition was surprisingly smooth. I'm always on the lookout for other Latin curricula, but so far, I haven't yet found anything as thorough and straight-forward as Henle. We're not really into Latin puzzles, games, or songs, but if your child is, Henle won't work and it would definitely be better to choose another program that would get the kid to study Latin. Henle is just, well, a bunch of sentences to translate, but the fun part for us is actually translating correctly. Finding the words in a puzzle or singing a song in Latin wouldn't give us the same sense of accomplishment.

 

There is limited vocabulary, but that's the benefit of using Henle. I don't think it would work as well if each lesson had too many new words to learn.

 

Maybe a better format would be MP's First Form since it reflects Henle's format, but it's expensive. Also, since the font is small, the parent could also use Henle orally or use that pdf file, which doesn't contain all the exercises. We've done it orally for quite awhile.

Edited June 10, 2011 by crazyforlatin

[Bloggermom]

VISUAL LATIN!! ;) They are making level two now. LOVE IT!!

:iagree:

It is the best Latin program we've ever used. My son LOVES it and so do I.

[yvonne]

My kids and I thrive on translation. I can't imagine having no translation to do. So I think I will like Henle for its heavy translation. We are so used to the 10 sentence a day translation in GSWL.

 

On the other hand I already bought LfC A.

 

For more translation practice than the sentences in the LfC text, be sure to purchase the Libellus reader to go along with LfC A.

 

Translations are my biggest issue w/ LfC. The Libellus books do have the students translate passages written in Latin. However, the passages are about historical people and events keyed to VP's history sequence. So, LfC B's Libellus passages are about people/events of the Middle Ages. LfC C's Libellus passages are about people/events in early modern history (Prince Henry the Navigator to the Missouri Compromise. Huh?) Who wants to read passages about early modern history in Latin when there are so many real Roman passages that one could practice on!? I'd rather read adapted passages from actual Roman writers, or even early medieval Latin writings, or, failing either of those, passages about Roman life, history, culture, etc. Latin passages about early modern history, mostly American, feel so contrived.

 

ETA: Looking at VP's plans for LfC C, it looks like they, too, replace LfC C's Libellus with more "authentic" readings by using Cambridge Latin I, alongside the LfC C text. Way more interesting and relevant for Latin than translating passages about early modern history!

Edited June 11, 2011 by yvonne

[JadeOrchidSong]

Thank you. Right now, I am going to order Henle 1 and Grammar, and the answer key from Seton. I am going to have my son do the first few lessons in both Henle and LFC (well, he won't be writing in the LfC book, just in case we decide to sell it!) We'll evaluate how they both go and make a decision together. I am going to guess and say he'll prefer Henle, but we'll see.

 

If any others have used Henle with a younger child, please pipe in :)

 

This is a great idea!

I am anxious to hear which works better for you and your son. I really hesitate to use LfC A because of not enough translation. We still have a few months to finish it. We did half now in 4 or 5 months. We go slow because we need to spend time on Mandarin, too.

Can you please compare the two after you use it for a while? If possible, resurrecting this thread will be easier for us to see the past, the present, and the future of your Latin journey and learn from you. Thank you for this thread. I have learned a lot of info that will help me choose.

[JadeOrchidSong]

Yes - http://www.gettingstartedwithlatin.com/faq.php

 

 

 

 

 

I am using Henle I ("First Year Latin") with dd10. We started mid-way through 4th grade, when I pulled her out of school (in January of this year). I had some Latin in high school, but I barely remember it. We did GSWL last year (which only took a few months), and then she reviewed GSWL just prior to starting Henle.

 

Henle was written by a Jesuit priest, Fr. Robert Henle, and published by Loyola Press, first in 1945. A new copy is available at Amazon. It was written for 9th graders with no prior Latin. Here is the Google books preview - take a good look at the translations http://books.google.com/books?id=FSAeb6bNqesC&printsec=frontcover&dq=henle+latin&hl=en&ei=RyLyTamPCKrXiAKq1bTrBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CEwQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false Henle also wrote books for subsequent years of high school Latin (sometimes denoted Latin II, III, etc., or second year, third year, etc.)

 

It is not easy, but it is intellectually challenging in a fun sort of way. It is meaty. IMO, it is certainly an option for many kids prior to high school. The question is when. I don't think there are any hard cut-offs for when Henle would and would not work - it'll depend on the individual student. OP's student is a rising fourth grader, tends to be accelerated, loves Latin and has finished GSWL. I think it'll work for that case because it's not very different from my dd10. However, that might be a less-common case - I don't know whether all students would be ready for Henle at that time. Others might wait until 5th or 6th. I think most 6th/7th graders would not have a problem with Henle. You can find your own pace. There is some flexibility. Certainly younger students may need to move slower than older ones, and younger students would do well to have some background (I thought GSWL was perfect for this - brief but substantial). Henle has a ton of exercises, some of which are "essential" and not to be skipped; others are optional. How many exercises are necessary will depend on the student. Naturally, younger students may not be able to sit through a Latin lesson for as long as an older student. All these things will affect the pace.

 

The other issue is that the font in Henle may be a little small for some kids. Others might be fine with it. The format is quite literally "old school" (see the google book preview above). I re-type the exercises for dd with lines for writing on, kind of making a workbook. She really prefers that. (As I write this, I am wondering whether I could purchase the PDF from google ebooks and then print it - it appears to be for sale for $8.98. Does anyone know whether google ebooks can be printed? Really dumb question because I've printed plenty of free google ebooks, just never a paid one. I'm thinking about that because other vintage-type PDFs that I have printed have come out with a much larger font size, on the 8.5x11 paper, than the book itself, which is on smaller paper. ETA: Unfortunately it appears that purchased google ebooks are not available for printing, unlike free google ebooks. :tongue_smilie:)

 

If you learn Latin right along with your child, I think Henle I is doable for those without a knowledge of Latin. I don't remember much and I'm re-learning Latin as we go along. However, when we get to the next level, i.e., when we finish Henle I, whatever reading-type of course dd moves on to, whether Henle Latin II or something else, I'll probably be looking at on-line courses rather than trying to handle that myself at home.

 

There are resources for Henle sold by Memoria Press, Seton and MODG. There may be others. I have the MODG syllabi (which I primarily use for quizzes and tests), the Seton answer key (more complete than Fr. Henle's answer key), the Seton pronunciation CD (which we've never used), and a little teacher tip book by Sister Mary Jeanne, by Loyola Press, which is not necessary but an inexpensive, nice addition. Along with Henle Latin I, you'd need the Grammar book - the text, grammar book and answer key are the absolute necessities - the rest are extras. We also use Laura Berquists' ending charts (see Adoremus Books). There are other resources available on-line, such as flash cards, etc.

 

There are a few others around here who have used Henle I with "younger" students, who may be able to offer better advice on an appropriate age to start it. Maybe they will pipe in :)

 

Thanks for the wonderful information about Henle. I might choose to use this when we finish GSWL.

[crazyforlatin]

Wapiti, did you figure out google e-books? I looked but didn't see anything more on buying it as a book. If it's possible to print out the book in a larger font size, that would be helpful.

[wapiti]

Wapiti, did you figure out google e-books? I looked but didn't see anything more on buying it as a book. If it's possible to print out the book in a larger font size, that would be helpful.

 

Apparently it is not possible to print out purchased Google ebooks, but only the free ones. That was disappointing.

 

I don't know about other kinds of ebooks. The grammar book is available from Amazon in a Kindle edition - that doesn't really help, because I probably wouldn't bother with printing the grammar book, but it would be interesting to know whether a person can print a Kindle ebook. :bigear:

[Halcyon]

Okay, so I purchased Henle 1 and the grammar, as well as the answer key and the Seton Guide. (got it all together from an LCC-er). I will evaluate both and have my son do a few lessons in each when we get back from vacation in July, and I'll post back my (and his!) opinions!

[JadeOrchidSong]

We liked LfC -- but part of that is related to my lack of Latin background. I tried to go to Henle, really I did, but I could not teach what I did not know. LfC acknowledges that the BOOK is the teacher, and the activities in it were really age appropriate.

 

My son will finish Latin IV at a private school next year. He has gotten golds on all three of his National Latin Exams. Why? Because we did LfC early on as skid-greaser, and because i got him a tutor who KNOWS LATIN and loves it and now, so does my son. I was really holding him back.

 

If I had it to do over, I would start Latin in 5th or 6th (not 2nd) using Galore Park, which has lots of translation and does not assume that there is a knowledgeable teacher, and is age appropriate. And then I'd get him the tutor in 7th or 8th grade, do 4 years of solid Latin, and then leave 2 years for a modern language. We are not far off from this, but I made it a lot harder than it needed to be.

 

I read on Amazon that Henle is for 9-12 grades. I really wonder how it can work for a 9 yr old. It is good to know that Galore Park has lots of translation for younger kids than Henle because I love translation. So you have given me more to think about. Thanks!