Is anyone else annoyed with the pronunciation on the PL cd?

[Shasta Mom]

I'm new to latin, but studied Spanish, and I'm pretty surprised when the narrator says "rugeena" for regina, when "e" is supposed to be pronounced "ay". Shouldn't she say, "Ray-geen-uh"? This is only one example, but every day we put the cd in, we giggle at the southern-accented latin, with (what I consider) pretty sloppy pronunciation.....I'm curious if the other programs provide better pronunciation......

[Suzanne in ABQ]

We used to giggle at her inconsistancies, and her southern accent (changing vowel sounds between one word and another, rolling the /r/ in one word, but not another), but we weren't annoyed. We stopped using the CD after awhile, unless I wanted to know where to place the accent on a particular word. She makes the disclaimer at the very beginning of the CD, saying that the pronunciation is just a tool for memory, and doesn't need to be perfect since there aren't any Romans around to correct us. It bugged me a little because pronunciation does matter when you're singing the words (as in choir), so I've always taken it seriously. Fortunately, I've done enough singing in college choirs that (even though I don't understand Latin), I do feel comfortable with the ecclestical pronunciation.

 

Now we're half-way through Latina Christiana I. I didn't get the DVDs or the CDs for LC because I didn't want to put us through all the mispronunciation again. But, I understand that it is a different speaker on the LC disks. I think it's the author's daughter on the PL CD, and the author herself on the LC disks. Perhaps someone else can clarify that. I don't know if the pronunciation is better than for PL.

[Marie in Oh]

she drove us nuts. I am sure she is lovely in person, but the Latin with a twang was toooooo much. I didn't like other stuff about PL either-- the prayers for one-- so we bagged it.

[Snickerdoodle]

There were several mispronuciations and it drove my perfectionist son completely nuts.

[In The Great White North]

I had a professor in college from Alabama. Russian in a Southern accent is hysterical! I guess the accent comes through no matter what language you're speaking.

 

The sad thing its that the younger a child learns a language, the better their ability is to learn the sounds of that language. I know native Latin speakers are hard to came by :), but at least without a regional accent would be nice. I'd hate for them to be imitating a Southern accent in any language.

 

All my experience with Latin comes from A) church and B) songs inother words, ecclesiastical Latin. We found several words in LC1 where I told the dc a different pronunciation because I think the "church" words in ecclesiastical Latin should sound the way they sound in church. Some words I don't care that much (like "navigo") about but others (like "regina"), I do.

[Rhondabee]

I actually had started LCI w/my older ds before getting PL for my younger. We didn't listen to the PL CD's after the first lesson, but I was familiar with how to do it myself. I can see how if I *hadn't* had the LCI first, PL would not have been so enjoyable for us.

 

Even on the LCII CD's, however, I think the pronunciations "change" a bit. We tend to over-pronouce so that it is easier to remember the spelling, so it doesn't bother us.

 

And, I'm not sure it's "wrong" because the Henle book actually mentions Latin having short vowel sounds - something I don't ever remember learning anywhere in the LC books and haven't had too much time to investigate yet.

 

Either way, we will probably just continue on with our "southern-fried" Latin - I'm sure we could give the PL CD a run for its money!

 

:001_smile:

Rhonda

[runningirl71]

I didn't mind so much, but it drove my son nuts! I was told that no one REALLY knows how Latin was pronounced anyways, since it is a dead language (did that come from the PL book?) but now that I've been on this board and have read many a Latin thread, I'm not so sure that is a proper assessment. I guess I didn't give it too much thought since we're not speaking it to eachother!

 

BTW, does anyone do this? I've heard of one Mom on this board who speaks Latin to her children, anyone else? I find that fascinating! :)

[Jennifer in NH]

 

 

we will probably just continue on with our "southern-fried" Latin -

:001_smile:

 

That is just so funny!:lol: We just started PL and have both the dvd and the cd so thank you for the heads up! We have the cd in the car and so far it is not a big hit. They like the dvd, but in the car they beg for SOTW or a Jim Weiss cd... I won't complain about that! Maybe one latin review per car ride??? then SOTW...I will be on the lookout (listen out?) for those words...thanks again.

[Laurie4b]

I'm the odd one out. It doesn't bother me and I appreciate the CD's because I can "do Latin" in the car.

 

Since we're not learning Latin as a living language, it's not a huge issue. Dh was an ancient language major and it doesn't bother him either because there isn't an emphasis in Latin on exact pronounciation since it isn't spoken anymore.

[profmom]

Yes. I tend to be a perfectionist and to hear inconsistent pronunciation can be a little frustrating. (Why can't they follow the pronunciation guide they present in the beginning?)

 

I wonder if it's really true that Latin pronunciation doesn't matter. Would our kids grow up, speak to someone who knows better in Latin, and then have the bad pronunciation blamed on homeschooling?

 

Saying that, though, I really have tried to relax and not worry about it so much.

[Qs3]

I have heard many good things about this program. However, when I listened to the audio samples, I chose not to use PL.

[clwcain]

I find it very amusing and the "twang" doesn't bother me for a few reasons:

1) Lots of our relatives sound like that, so it isn't too jarring.

2) I'm confident in my "filthy Roman" pronunciation of Latin and Italian.

3) I'm teaching both Classical and Ecclesiastical at the same time, so I'm not relying on the CD/DVD as the exclusive arbiter of pronunciation.

 

YMMV.

 

May I suggest, as an alternative, hunting down The Latin Lover podcasts involving Fr. Reggie Foster and the podcazts of Fr. John Zuhlsdorf (especially his "What Does the Prayer Really Sound Like" series), if you want additional/alternative exposure to Latin pronunciation. Both of them will provide Ecclesiastical, but neither of them are offering structured learning environments.

 

For Classical, Bolchazy-Carducci produces some excellent materials, including Conversational Latin for Oral Proficiency. Do note that this, too, is not a complete course of study, merely a supplement to whatever you are doing.

 

Links

Fr. Foster

http://www.frcoulter.com/latin/latinlover/index.html

 

Fr. Z

http://wdtprs.com/blog/

or

http://wdtprs.com/blog/category/podcazt/

 

B-C

http://www.bolchazy.com/

 

HTH

[TracyR]

Oh dear . I have this program . I haven't listened to the CD's yet or watched the DVD yet . I'm not sure if the southern twang is going to bother me or not . I do prefer my daughter's have the proper pronunciation . I would think it does matter because Latin is the base for the 5 Romance languages , Romanian , Portuguese , Italian , Spanish and French and I would imagine if you mispronounced the words you would be mispronouncing these other languages as well ? Just a thought .

I chose Prima Latina because it does teach the prayers and I didn't seem to find any other program that does this ( or maybe there is and I just haven't found it yet ) .

I know this was a topic on the Memoria Press forums and I do believe they plan on changing the CD . Maybe Plaid Dad can comment more on this topic .

[Michele B]

The inconsistencies in pronunciation drive us nuts. My dd7 corrects the cd! As for the so-called twang, she sounds refreshingly normal to us! :D

 

Michele B in Georgia

[Rhondabee]

I admit I find it amusing that people from areas other than the South think they are "accent-less".

 

Of course, years ago, I also enjoyed listening to my two Appalachian-mountain-influenced ds's recite, "Two little blackbirds sitting on a wall..." in the King's perfect English after watching it on Teletubbies!

 

=)

[mamato4]

My neighbor is a soloist in his Catholic church and I would ask him to pronounce the Latin words for me. He also took Latin when he was younger so he's been a great help. Southern-accent Latin just didn't sound too good.

 

Anna

[Sorbie]

I admit I find it amusing that people from areas other than the South think they are "accent-less".

 

=)

 

:thumbup:

[Michele B]

Southern-accent Latin just didn't sound too good.

 

Anna

 

 

Wow.

 

I think the vowel pronunciation inconsistencies on the cd are a separate issue than a speaker's regional accent.

 

There are cultured regional accents and hick regional accents and everything in between. What is pleasant for one is grating to another. What some people may consider an American accent makes me snicker. But I would not make fun of them to their face or their internet face. Their i - face?

 

Michele

[Sorbie]

Wow.

 

I think the vowel pronunciation inconsistencies on the cd are a separate issue than a speaker's regional accent.

 

There are cultured regional accents and hick regional accents and everything in between. What is pleasant for one is grating to another. What some people may consider an American accent makes me snicker. But I would not make fun of them to their face or their internet face. Their i - face?

 

Michele

 

Thanks for writing this Michelle. I agree with you that inconsistent pronunciation and accents are completely different issues. I wonder if people on this board who giggle WITH their children at Southern accents are also teaching their children to laugh at foreigners who have accented speech.

 

As a California native who lived in HI and married a Southerner, I would like to point out that all areas of the US have strong dialects that sound odd to people from the other regions. I am sure that Latin teachers in the UK or Italy could snicker at ALL of our pronunciations here on this board if they were so inclined.

 

-Amber in GA

[In The Great White North]

All areas of the US do not have strong accents. Regional accents are quickly disappearing, as the last generation that grew up with either no radio/TV or local (not network) stations dies off.

 

This can be a good or a bad thing, depending on how you look at it. Loss of variety is, well, a loss to mankind that will probably never be recovered. On the other hand, far fewer people are being held back academically or professionally because of the way they speak.

 

There is such a thing as Standard American English, just like there is the "King's English." (This is primarily what is spoken on national TV and radio news broadcasts.) Speakers of each consider the other to have an "American" accent or a "British" accent. Deviations from either are considered a regional accents.

[Sorbie]

All areas of the US do not have strong accents.

 

I disagree. While they might not be as strong as they once were (thinking JFK here), marked regional differences do exist. My friends from the Midwest in their 20's still have their Fargo-like accents despite being exposed to "Standard American English" through tv and radio their whole lives.

 

I wouldn't be so sure about the disappearance of regional accents in the US due to media influences. International immigration is having its own impact on regional dialects. My younger relatives in southern California are picking up hints of a Spanish accent even though they don't hear it. We don't giggle at them when they talk though.

 

-Amber

[Rhondabee]

But Standard American English is basically an entertainment/news media "dialect". No one truly speaks "Standard American English" naturally - it is somewhat based on a mid-west accent, but isn't a "true" Mid-western accent. My dh was a musical theater major and had to master SAE, Mid-western and about 50-60 other dialects/accents.

 

I do agree with you that growing up listening to SAE affects children's timbre/pronunciations/accents. My parents sound less Southern than my grandparents. I sound less Southern than my parents. And my children, now that we're out of the mountains!, sound much less Southern than I. And, I find when I travel out of the South, I don't have such a hard time understanding other people as I did when I was younger.

 

I must admit, I am a bit hurt to know you think of me as "less than" just because I happen to have been raised in the South. But, then, I also chuckle remembering the Alka-Seltzer commercial where the lady says, "The New Jersey cold is ROT-ten." And, of course, I love Brian Regan's spiel on the Kennedy family and "Do-rah the Ex-lor-ah".

 

 

- I couldn't find the bit about "ask not if someone can pass the creamed corn to you..." ---Too funny. Have fun!

[Michele B]

All areas of the US do not have strong accents. Regional accents are quickly disappearing, as the last generation that grew up with either no radio/TV or local (not network) stations dies off.

There is such a thing as Standard American English, just like there is the "King's English." (This is primarily what is spoken on national TV and radio news broadcasts.) "

 

 

I also would disagree that regional accents are disappearing. The fact that many national newscasters and radio broadcasters are now retaining their regional accents weakens your argument.

It would be impossible to have a homogenized accent in this large country just as it is impossible in other, smaller countries, where indeed they have a governing body (which we do not), to decide what their standard is. Standard English refers to grammar - not accent. We do not have a governing body to standardize our spoken language, therefore any attempts to decide what standard is, are local and arbitrary. Making fun of someone's accent is historically a way to claim your accent is better, more American, higher social class, not an immigrant...etc. Sometimes the PL cd in question is inconsistent in the way a word is pronounced: Is it SAL - vuh-tay or sal -Vay-te, Leigh Lowe?

 

Consistency within a program is important, I have been frustrated by the cd myself.

 

Whether the teacher has a southern accent or not and whether southern accents should be looked down on or not is really quite different. Does anyone really think in the middle ages, ecclesiastical pronunciation did not vary throughout Europe? And does anyone think some of these remarks on southern accents do not hurt the feelings of their sister homeschoolers? Sister homeschoolers who travel and are educated and have a broad world view, but still have a southern accent?

 

Michele b

[Michele B]

I guess I mean Leigh Lowe's inconsistencies are not because she has a southern accent, but because she is not careful to pronounce the words on the cd the same way she did on the DVD.

 

Sorry, but my alternative to posting is laundry. And this is more fun!

 

Michele

[Qs3]

Yes, I agree. I am not from the South, but I'm currently living in GA. I love the accent here! It was definitely the pronunciation that bugged me. I was raised by a French mother who liked studying languages in her spare time. She, like me, was quite the perfectionist. I guess I've become a pronunciation elitist. :)

[TracyR]

Okay . I'll have to admit . After reading the posts I was thinking she had a very deep southern accent . I just wasn't sure how something like that would go over with my "northern" kids . Rest assured we started the PL today and her 'accent' was barely noticeable at all . I mean you really had to listen .

I'm not sure which part of the south they are from but she sounded pretty 'normal' to me . My girls loved it and I'm sure we'll stick with it now .

The CD , well I didn't notice the inconsistencies . But then my 21 month old was whining and due for a nap . I'll have to listen again to it later . Not sure if I'll use it that much . I'm not sure if we do with having the DVD program .

[Rhondabee]

Maybe it's just me, but I have a hard time understanding the words if I'm not reading them at the same time. (I'm a very visual person.) I also have a hard time understanding the Spanish in cartoons, because I can't see the lips forming the sounds, so it's probably me.

 

All that to say, I'd opt for SOTW or Jim Weiss in the car myself.

 

=)

Rhonda

[In The Great White North]

And does anyone think some of these remarks on southern accents do not hurt the feelings of their sister homeschoolers?

 

I didn't. I've travelled around a bit and people have always commented on each others' accents and tried to figure out where they were from. No one was ever insulted by it (on the contrary, most were proud of their accents) and I would never have expected it.

 

Can I ask why your feelings would be hurt?

[latinteach]

It actually is important to learn to pronounce Latin properly, especially if your students plan to continue their Latin studies through to the Advanced Placement level or study the language in college. While many people don't learn Latin to actually speak it, some do! Using the correct pronunciation and accenting and it can actually be a help to reading, especially when it comes to reading poetry. (The Advanced Placement Latin test is focused on Vergil, which is epic poetry.) If your student attends Latin Conventions (generally open to homeschoolers) there are contests in oratory and pronunciation plays a part. Also, if you do memory work, memorizing Latin quotations and poetry, it will sound better and students will be more confident if they feel they are pronouncing correctly. Remember that most Latin poetry was meant to be read out loud.

 

That being said, I think it's more important for the learner to TRY to pronounce correctly than to not say the words out loud at all because they are too worried about being perfect.

 

The Wheelock's Latin site has free audio pronunciation files. The speaker is professional and his pronunciation is based upon Wheelock's Latin and Vox Latina. Vox Latina is an authoritative guide to Latin pronunciation.

 

http://wheelockslatin.com/chapters/introduction/introduction.html

 

You don't have to be using Wheelock's Latin to use the audio pronunciation files.

 

Of course, if you choose to use Ecclesiastical pronunciation (which is different than what is on the Wheelock site) that's fine too. The important thing is to be consistent. Pick a pronunciation and be consistent.

 

Hope this helps!

 

Other places to hear Latin spoken out loud on line:

 

The News in Latin from Radio Finland:

http://www.yleradio1.fi/nuntii/id50.shtml

Princeton Classical Language Instruction Project

http://www.princeton.edu/~clip/

 

I'm new to latin, but studied Spanish, and I'm pretty surprised when the narrator says "rugeena" for regina, when "e" is supposed to be pronounced "ay". Shouldn't she say, "Ray-geen-uh"? This is only one example, but every day we put the cd in, we giggle at the southern-accented latin, with (what I consider) pretty sloppy pronunciation.....I'm curious if the other programs provide better pronunciation......

[Michele B]

 

Can I ask why your feelings would be hurt?

 

 

 

Sure!

 

To hear that a speaker has a southern accent is a negative. Mrs. Lowe speaks like most of my family and friends. Sure it's fun to try to "locate" someone's accent, but viewing that accent as a negative is a bit much. The problem with the cds is that her pronunciation is inconsistent. Whether she has a slight southern accent is not the same as critizing her for not pronouncing Latin by the rules the he spells out.

 

Michele

[Rhondabee]

I personally thought:

 

I'd hate for them to be imitating a Southern accent in any language.

 

rather smacked of disdain & condescension.

 

But it's not like I think people *should* go around "imitating a Southern accent", so I just said a quick, "Take off, eh?" (in my best Southern accent, no doubt ;) ) and shook it off. No biggie here. I don't have time to be actually upset about yous guys up north, anyway.

 

Any-WHOooo.....(I'll never figure out how that word came into popular use :confused:)....

 

:D

[TracyR]

Oh I don't see it as a negative. To me I was just concerned wether the words were being pronounced properly so that my daughter's wouldn't start in with Latin .

We here in Northwest Pa hear about our slight Canadian accents . I've never heard it but many people say we do :>) LOL .

 

Sorry to hijack the threat but could anyone tell me the difference between Ecclesiastical and Classical pronunciation ? And which does PL use ?

[Shasta Mom]

I just found it humorous in a nonjudgemental way, and my main gripe was inconsistencies in the pronunciation. If there are pronunciation rules, then I think the person reciting the language for instructional purposes should observe them.

[Tweed]

When we do our sum, es, est chant, my 9 year old says the "e" sound as "ay" and my 8 year old says the short "e" sound. If I remember correctly they did the "ay" sound in PL and the short "e" sound in LC1, which we are currently using. It makes it all very confusing and I wish they were consistent between PL and LC1. That is just one of the pronunciation errors that we have encounted. I have noticed that most of the pronunication differences tend to revolve around the letter "e" and I have to add that I am talking about the DVDs. For some reason, we don't really use the cds. It is a great program, but I find some of it very sloppy. I know she has the disclaimer in the beginning, and I can understand that there might be discrepencies between people who were taught Latin by different sources, but it would please me if they had consistency within the same program.

[frogpond1]

second to last syllable. The pronounciation can drive you crazy if you get super legalistic. In the end there really isn't a super legalistic way to speak Latin though and you'll lose your mind.

[stephanie]

I'm new to latin, but studied Spanish, and I'm pretty surprised when the narrator says "rugeena" for regina, when "e" is supposed to be pronounced "ay". Shouldn't she say, "Ray-geen-uh"? This is only one example, but every day we put the cd in, we giggle at the southern-accented latin, with (what I consider) pretty sloppy pronunciation.....I'm curious if the other programs provide better pronunciation......

 

What are ya talkin' about? You mean she has an accent? LOL! She sounds great to us here in South Texas! I guess I've never caught her saying that, but on the LC 2 dvd I go bonkers with all the,"umms."

[Plaid Dad]

There are a couple of different issues here:

 

* Regional accent. I'm not touching that one with the proverbial ten-foot pole, except to say that I grew up on Lon gIsland. :)

* Ecclesiastical vs. classical pronunciation. There are differences in how the vowels and double consonants are pronounced and that is reflected in the pronunciation used in MP's Latin courses.

* Spelling conventions. The lack of macrons in ecclesiastical spelling makes it harder to figure out where the accent falls if you haven't heard the word pronounced correctly before. Many Latin prayer books print accent marks over words with more than two syllables for exactly this reason, and macrons were added to classical texts to aid in pronunciation (and to distinguish certain forms from each other).

* Inconsistencies within a given pronunciation convention. This is a bigger problem. The accent is on the second syllable of salvete, regardless of which pronunciation you're using.

 

Actually, I do want to say something about regional accents in Latin. While no one in the Roman Empire spoke what the MP folks call "genteel Southern Latin" ;), there were many regional variations on pronunciation - that's how we ended up with all the different Romance languages. It's not surprising: you wouldn't expect someone living in Northern England to speak the same way as someone in Palestine or Spain or Egypt. I'm sure a medieval Italian like St. Thomas Aquinas had a different accent to his Latin than his French students in Paris. Accent would have been influenced not only by place of origin, but by education and class - just as it is today.

 

Modern Latin speakers retain their own particular accents. The Pope often pronounces his "qu" sounds like "kv" (normal for a German) and, to my ear at least, has a distinctively Bavarian cadence to his Latin. Yet his Latin is very clear and easy to understand.

 

So I would say that regional accent only becomes a problem when the speaker is unable to reproduce the sounds of the target language accurately enough to be understood by someone with a different accent (since we're not talking about "native speakers" of Latin here). Inconsistency is certainly a problem if the speaker is meant to be a language model for learners. If you want to hear carefully pronounced, fluent Latin, I highly recommend the recordings that go along with Lingua Latina, or, for ecclesiastical pronunciation, Fr. Reginald Foster's podcasts. The resources origami listed are also great. I had heard that MP is planning to re-do the LC recordings, but I don't know more about those plans.

 

P.S. Leigh Lowe is Cheryl Lowe's daughter-in-law. :)

[trisharog]

Does the incorrect pronunciation apply only to the CDS. This will be our first year of HS and I had planned to buy the PL 1 DVDs . Incorrect pronunciation would make my DS crazy.

[Old Dominion Heather]

I admit I find it amusing that people from areas other than the South think they are "accent-less".

 

Of course, years ago, I also enjoyed listening to my two Appalachian-mountain-influenced ds's recite, "Two little blackbirds sitting on a wall..." in the King's perfect English after watching it on Teletubbies!

 

=)

 

On a side note, much of the Appalachian dialect and pronunciation is nearer to Old English than anywhere else in America, due to the isolation of the area. You still hear Old English words there... for example, my g-grandmother called a bag a "poke" and pronounced salad as "salet" which is the original English pronunciation. So the argument could be made that, in some instances, the Appalachian pronunciation is more correct than others.

[TracyR]

I haven't heard mispronunciation ( yet) in the PL CD. If there is I'm missing it . But the words sound the same from the DVD and the CD .

By the way my girls really like their teacher Miss Leigh . LOL .