JenL--Talk with us about 8th grade writing/LA...

[PeterPan]

You said on the K8 board that your experience as an 8th gr teacher has left you disenchanted with how they approach LA. Can you talk more about that? What have they done to make it go downhill, and where do you think it ought to be? Were there certain aspects of the ps LA approach you *liked*? What were some of the quantities and expectations you had? Did you find them REASONABLE, or did the dc turn out poor work due to over-pushing of quantity or level? Did you find it valuable to have differentiated expectations (a certain approach for the gifted, a certain approach for the average, a 3rd for the struggler), and did you find yourself wanting to do more creative or application-type projects? Are you finding WTM boring compared to what you used to do?

 

And finally, any experience with dyslexics? Gifted dyslexics? We have enough of those on this board to make your hair curl, so any comments you have would be very interesting. :)

[Chez J]

:lurk5:

 

I too am interested in your perspective on pitfalls for MS language arts. My student is gifted in LA - quite. So, any additional insight there would be appreciated. :D

[peacefully]

:bigear:

(former English teacher here too)

[jenL]

You said on the K8 board that your experience as an 8th gr teacher has left you disenchanted with how they approach LA. Can you talk more about that? What have they done to make it go downhill, and where do you think it ought to be? Were there certain aspects of the ps LA approach you *liked*? What were some of the quantities and expectations you had? Did you find them REASONABLE, or did the dc turn out poor work due to over-pushing of quantity or level? Did you find it valuable to have differentiated expectations (a certain approach for the gifted, a certain approach for the average, a 3rd for the struggler), and did you find yourself wanting to do more creative or application-type projects? Are you finding WTM boring compared to what you used to do?

 

And finally, any experience with dyslexics? Gifted dyslexics? We have enough of those on this board to make your hair curl, so any comments you have would be very interesting. :)

 

 

Wow! These are excellent questions! I wish the parents of the kids I was teaching would have been as concerned. :tongue_smilie:

 

I only have about 20 minutes before I have to head out to an afternoon field trip, and since we have not eaten lunch yet, I will need to answer all this tonight. So, please hang on, and I promise I will write back. I'm jotting down the questions so I can ponder my answers. :D

[rafiki]

.

[jenL]

Okay, ladies! I'm back. Thanks for your patience. I just spent a day learning about outdoor cooking with 8 boys ages 4-9, so if I'm not 100% coherent, I'm sorry! :001_smile:

 

I'm going to try to answer all of OhElizabeth's questions, but if I miss something, please let me know. Let me say my answers are based upon my experiences and those of my colleagues while teaching at a public middle school in southern NH. Socioeconomic status would be primarily middle class, just to give you an idea of the student body we were reaching. I have my M.Ed in Elementary Education w/ a middle school focus, certified K-8.

 

I'll start by saying the majority of my students had poor writing skills, although there were some (probably about 10-12 per year out of 90) who could write solidly, meaning they could formulate a well-organized, coherent and interesting 5 paragraph essay including a thesis statement with little instruction.

 

Every year, our goal was to get the students to be able to craft this type of persuasive essay so they would be prepared for high school where this was an immediate requirement. It was a struggle EVERY year because the kids came in with poor grammar skills (inabliity to use word order, adverbs, tense, complex sentences, etc). We often had to teach basic paragraph skills! At the beginning of the year, I concentrated on trying to get the kids up to speed going through the simple parts of speech and where they were in a sentence, moving into working the kids through how to make complex sentences with the different types of clauses, infinitives, gerunds, etc. I had to teach these kids and pray they got it. If not, we kept moving on.

 

From there I moved into solid paragraphs with opening hooks, middle describing sentences, and strong conclusions. Then, I taught thesis statements. We analyzed how to formulate an opinion, 3 supporting facts (what are facts vs. opinions was taught amidst this), and a confident conclusion within this complex sentence. Next, we broke the 5 paragraph essay into parts. The kids wrote the opening, I checked it. Then each of the supporting fact paragraphs were written (one at a time, and I checked them), then a conclusion. We worked on smooth transitions between paragraphs while doing this. The kids wrote, revised, rewrote, revised, rewrote, and then put all the paragraphs together into a finalized essay. It was exhausting and took up a tremendous amount of time.

 

It sounds as if I was doing all the right things with them, but honestly, many of the kids were so stunted and lacked confidence that it remained a stuggle for them. Some never fully grasped the grammar at the beginning of the year; therefore, they couldn't fully move on to make strong paragraphs despite giving them example after example of solid paragraphs (from literature or even their peers who were successful writers). I still feel as if I failed many of them, but they were just SO far behind that I plain didn't have enough TIME to get them all properly caught up. Kwim?

 

I loved walking them through the process of writing and seeing them grow even if it was just slightly. I loved seeing them use a thesaurus or a dictionary to find the "right" words; I loved seeing them help their peers.

 

I hated the feeling of failure so many of them had. I hated that there was so much they just didn't know because they were never taught it in the earlier grades since the focus was so incredibly literature based. Somewhere along the way, Language Arts became a place to discuss, illustrate, and use creativity, but the CORE SKILLS were being neglected. Kids could come up with imaginative ideas, but they had no idea how to formulate paragraphs to portray those ideas. They could read wonderful books, but they didn't have the writing skills to properly analyze them or convey their thoughts clearly in regards to the books. Kids would ask me, can't we just do a book report? To them it meant regurgitate the summary on the back cover!

 

I taught 3 blocks of LA each day for 1.5 hr total time although they may not have been back to back periods. I usually had a high class, an average class, and a lower class in terms of capabilities. I could take my higher and average kids further in terms of quantity and quality during the year. For my lower kids, one 5 paragraph essay was usually all we made it through during the entire year, and this was in intense struggle. I did differentiate between learners by having the kids reach certain "focus correction areas" in each assignemnt. For example, the kids may have to include 10-15 adjectives throughout the essay, write 6-10 complex sentences, and/or utilize 3 solid transition words within the essay. As we practiced, I would only grade for these things. I learned how to teach/grade this way utilizing the John Collins Writing Program. This way the kids were trying to aim for greatness in very specific areas without feeling overwhelmed in trying to make the entire essay perfect from the start. Some kids had higher requirements, some lower. JC allows you to customize the focus areas for each student. This was extremely valuable in building confidence and pushing the higher students to reach further. It also made it less cumbersome for me as a teacher. As homeschoolers we can readily customize our assignments utilizing this type of method as well.

 

To be continued...

Edited May 20, 2011 by jenL
added a little more...

[Wildiris]

I'm going to try to answer all of OhElizabeth's questions, but if I miss something, please let me know. Let me say my answers are based upon my experiences and those of my colleagues while teaching at a public middle school in southern NH. Socioeconomic status would be primarily middle class, just to give you an idea of the student body we were reaching. I have my M.Ed in Elementary Education w/ a middle school focus, certified K-8.

 

I'll start by saying the majority of my students had poor writing skills, although there were some (probably about 10-12 per year out of 90) who could write solidly, meaning they could formulate a well-organized, coherent and interesting 5 paragraph essay including a thesis statement with little instruction.

 

Every year, our goal was to get the students to be able to craft this type of persuasive essay so they would be prepared for high school where this was an immediate requirement. It was a struggle EVERY year because the kids came in with poor grammar skills (inabliity to use word order, adverbs, tense, complex sentences, etc). We often had to teach basic paragraph skills! At the beginning of the year I concentrated on trying to get the kids up to speed going through the simple parts of speech and where they were in a sentence, moving into working the kids through how to make complex sentences with the different types of clauses, infinitives, gerunds, etc. I had to teach these kids and pray they got it. If not, we kept moving on.

 

From there I moved into solid paragraphs with opening hooks, middle describing sentences, and strong conclusions. Then, I taught thesis statements. We analyzed how to formulate an opinion, 3 supporting facts (what are facts vs. opinions was taught amidst this), and a confident conclusion within this complex sentence. Next, we broke the 5 paragraph essay into parts. The kids wrote the opening, I checked it. Then each of the supporting fact paragraphs were written (one at a time, and I checked them), then a conclusion. We worked on smooth transitions between paragraphs while doing this. The kids wrote, revised, rewrote, revised, rewrote, and then put all the paragraphs together into a finalized a essay. It was exhausting and took up a tremendous amount of time.

 

It sounds as if I was doing all the right things with them, but honestly, many of the kids were so stunted and lacked confidence that it remained a stuggle for them. Some never fully grasped the grammar at the beginning of the year; therefore, they couldn't fully move on to make strong paragraphs despite giving them example after example of solid paragraphs (from literature or even their peers who were successful writers). I still feel as if I failed many of them, but they were just SO far behind that I plain didn't have enough TIME to get them all properly caught up. Kwim?

 

I loved walking them through the process of writing and seeing them grow even if it was just slightly. I loved seeing them use a thesaurus or a dictionary to find the "right" words; I loved seeing them help their peers.

 

I hated the feeling of failure so many of them had. I hated that there was so much they just didn't know because they were never taught it in the earlier grades since the focus was so incredibly literature based. Somewhere along the way, Language Arts became a place to discuss, illustrate, and use creativity, but the CORE SKILLS were being neglected. Kids could come up with imaginative ideas, but they had no idea how to formulate paragraphs to portray those ideas. They could read wonderful books, but they didn't have the writing skills to properly analyze them or convey their thoughts clearly in regards to the books. Kids would ask me, can't we just do a book report? To them it meant regurgitate the summary on the back cover!

 

I taught 3 blocks of LA each day for 1.5 hr total time although they may not have been back to back periods. I usually had a high class, an average class, and a lower class in terms of capabilities. I could take my higher and average kids further in terms of quantity and quality during the year. For my lower kids, one 5 paragraph essay was usually all we made it through during the entire year, and this was in intense struggle. I did differentiate between learners by having the kids reach certain "focus correction areas" in each assignemnt. For example, the kids may have to include 10-15 adjectives throughout the essay, write 6-10 complex sentences, and/or utilize 3 solid transition words within the essay. As we practiced, I would only grade for these things. I learned how to teach/grade this way utilizing the John Collins Writing Program. This way the kids were trying to aim for greatness in very specific areas without feeling overwhelmed in trying to make the entire essay perfect from the start. Some kids had higher requirements, some lower. JC allows you to customize the focus areas for each student. This was extremely valuable in building confidence and pushing the higher students to reach further. It also made it less cumbersome for me as a teacher. As homeschoolers we can readily customize our assignments utilizing this type of method as well.

 

WOW! Thanks for your response. I am so glad I emphasized writing with my kids when they were younger. When they entered public school they carried with them a confidence to express themselves in writing that their peers just didn't have. Even the kids who graduate from our tiny (less than 40 kids) local k-8 school never learned to write with confidence. I once asked that grammar be taught in 8th grade and was told it was beyond the kids to even try. My son confirmed this when he came home from school one day and said, "Mom, they don't even know what a noun is. They can't find the verb in a sentence." There were 13 kids in his class.

 

I don't want to come off as a homeschool mommy glorifying homeschool and vilifying public school. Rather, it pains me that our schools, even my small local school, do not emphasize writing as communication. In my business I read many emails from customers who clearly have a difficult time communicating in writing. Sometimes it is those who with English as a second language that better communicate in writing than those with English as a fist language.

 

Thanks for sharing you approach in the classroom. The John Collins Writing Program sounds interesting. I'll be looking it up.

 

Cheers,

Iris

[jenL]

I was worried I was going to lose all my info, so I figured it would be best to break things up.

 

The question was asked as to whether I wanted to do more creative things... absolutely! Yet, we just didn't have time to make that our focus. I did try to give them creative prompts or topics for them to write about in order to give them some ability to express themselves. I also allowed small, free-writing assignments every now and then as fillers. These were not formal, and they often focused only on one skill (quotation marks, verb usage, etc). It was a miracle if I could fit poetry writing in each year; it was usually overlooked because of the sheer lack of time. With the emphasis on teaching to the test that is taking over in many schools, there is even LESS time to fulfill the teaching of necessary skills!

 

While trying to get the kids to write well, we were expected to teach a variety of literature. I'll admit it; this was my favorite part of teaching LA. It was easier than trudging through the writing since 8th graders really enjoy talking and the emotional side of life. I loved hearing the kids' views regarding characters, ethics, morals, their analysis of plot, foils, etc. Having the kids write about the books hindered their abilities to express their thoughts. They could verbalize it through speaking & discussions, but they became paralzyed when needing to put their thoughts into writing because the formulation of sentences, appropriate word order, and the ability to portray what they meant required skills that did not coincide with their ability to think the thoughts. I believe that because it was more enjoyable to read and discuss books, illustrate scenes, and make little picture books about novels, teachers focus more on this in elementary school. It's more difficult to make writing fun, although it absolutely can be done, so teachers step away from it. Removing grammar from many schools has also affected the ability for kids to tell what they think. It's a travesty, really.

 

A written analysis of a novel was especially difficult for kids who had dyslexia or LD's because they were struggling with the initial reading of the literature. Asking them to then tell about a novel that they could not fully understand because of their disabilites was like asking them to build a house without ever having them hold a hammer.

 

THis brings me to why I think it's so extremely important that we, as homeschoolers, build a strong foundation of grammar and sentence structure. I feel as if everything has been dumbed down to the point that I'm not sure how students can recover these skills if they are in a traditional B&M school.

 

I hope I've covered everything... please let me know if I've missed something or I'm not making sense. Dh and ds1 have interrupted me many times, so I apologize if I'm unclear.

Edited May 20, 2011 by jenL
added a little bit more... :)

[jenL]

I don't want to come off as a homeschool mommy glorifying homeschool and vilifying public school. Rather, it pains me that our schools, even my small local school, do not emphasize writing as communication. In my business I read many emails from customers who clearly have a difficult time communicating in writing. Sometimes it is those who with English as a second language that better communicate in writing than those with English as a fist language.

 

 

Cheers,

Iris

 

 

Iris, I think you hit the nail on the head here. Somewhere along the way, we have stopped seeing writing as a means of communication. Even in today's digital society, we need to be able to convey information succinctly and appropriately.

 

I could go on a full-fledged RANT about how the students would use Internet/email lingo in their papers!

 

cuz = because, I was always "i", later = l8ter, wuz = was, and so on... DROVE ME NUTS!

 

This was before texting really took off too; I can only imagine what teachers are experiencing now. Ugh.

[Chez J]

Reading your description of how you taught your students through specific lessons, such as using 10 adjectives, gives me confidence in my choice of using IEW. Thank you for posting that level of detail.

 

I have been following the whole movement in education to let young students be creative in spelling and writing. Your experience shows just how wrong that movement is.

[PeterPan]

Jennifer, that's very interesting!! Like Chez, I thought the overlap in approach between the John Collins method you mentioned and IEW was interesting. It's interesting to hear how you applied it to your students. Rather than becoming checklist-y or formulaic, your use of the quantities for the grammar in writing was helping them take the next step with their writing. Very interesting.

 

You mentioned your 3rd tier students would do well to get through the one 5-paragraph essay a year. What about your mid and top-tier students?

 

If your thesis is that we need to view writing as communication, then what types of things did you find your students writing about? Did they do subject writing and have the writing assignments flow from their lit or history or whatever, or did you segregate it out and have them do specific research on a topic to do their writing class writing?

[PenKase]

Having the kids write about the books hindered their abilities to express their thoughts. They could verbalize it through speaking & discussions, but they became paralzyed when needing to put their thoughts into writing because the formulation of sentences, appropriate word order, and the ability to portray what they meant required skills that did not coincide with their ability to think the thoughts.

 

IMO, this is exactly what I think SWB is trying to get at through her writing curriculum and audio lectures. This makes perfect sense now...first, the skill of verbalization/narration is practiced and practiced and practiced, THEN once comfortable, the student transitions those skills to the written word. As I am currently using her methods for writing, her methods are simple, yet highly effective. They really do work!! I have seen a HUGE improvement in both of my dc's writing from the fall until now, and we've been getting great results almost entirely pain free, almost. :001_smile:

[jenL]

Jennifer, that's very interesting!! Like Chez, I thought the overlap in approach between the John Collins method you mentioned and IEW was interesting. It's interesting to hear how you applied it to your students. Rather than becoming checklist-y or formulaic, your use of the quantities for the grammar in writing was helping them take the next step with their writing. Very interesting.

 

You mentioned your 3rd tier students would do well to get through the one 5-paragraph essay a year. What about your mid and top-tier students?

 

If your thesis is that we need to view writing as communication, then what types of things did you find your students writing about? Did they do subject writing and have the writing assignments flow from their lit or history or whatever, or did you segregate it out and have them do specific research on a topic to do their writing class writing?

 

My mid students could get through 2-3 essays a year - keep in mind, it took us most of the year to get through HOW to create the essay, so we lost time with them actually writing an essay. I could *usually* get the top-tier kids writing 4-5 solid essays a year. This was not every year, however, because even my top-tier kids were often times lower than what *we* may consider top-tier.

 

A story to relate... I taught at the middle school I attended as a student. The same teachers I had in the accelerated program I was a part of still taught the accelerated students. All 3 who were still there (math, science, and social studies) would state without hesitation that the students today are nowhere near as bright, motivated, and capable as the students were when I was a 7th & 8th grader. They could talk, site examples, and provide research as to how requirements and expectations of the students have been dumbed down over the years. All of them were teaching for 20+ years when I became their colleague.

 

In the course of working the kids through the development of an essay, I often had them do smaller assignments to hone (or most often, relearn) their writing skills. I would assign a descriptive paragraph using a piece of art (self-chosen or given by me) where they were to be as descriptive as possible to learn how to formulate interesting sentences. It amazed me how choppy and boring most of their writing was! I had them write expository paragraphs/essays to see how to say exactly what they meant so that another could follow. These mini assignments provided them with small, less overwhelming tasks, in order to develop specific skills: sentence structure, word order, transitioning, interest, etc. I tried to balance with the kids choosing their topics, using premade prompts of their choice, or giving them one specific topic for the whole class. I tried to keep it interest-driven while focusing on having them accomplish a variety of necessary skills.

 

Some kids would write about personal issues; others would create stories, and others would talk about their favorite things, places they've been, and/or exciting things they've done when given free reign. Sometimes an assignment would require literary analysis where I'd have them describe the character's emotions in a specific scene. Sometimes they would have to tell me, in writing, why they think the author chose a specific setting. Basically, I tried to have them write and write often, but each assignment had FCAs (Focus Correction Areas) in line with the John Collins program.

 

Scholastic had a series of books covering the 4 major types of writing that I used to direct the students. Here is one of them: http://www.amazon.com/Descriptive-Writing-Grades-Tara-Mccarthy/dp/0590209329/ref=sr_1_43?ie=UTF8&qid=1305898441&sr=8-43

 

The only research-based assignments were the 5-paragraph thesis essays that were approached after having them do half the year (or longer with my lower students) on the smaller assignments. Students were given a variety of topics in which to choose where they were to find 3 facts that could support their thesis. With pre-approval, students could present a topic that was not on my list (my list was 25+ topics relative to their world) - my higher tiered students were the only ones who wanted to veer from the list, if at all. It wasn't a true research paper since I did not have them do formal citations within the essay. Gosh, that would have completely overwhelmed them! However, I did teach that they could not plagarize the information so it must be converted into their own words. I would say that my not having them cite was a failure in itself because then I was neglecting a necessary skill, but in essence of time, I just couldn't cover everything even if I wanted to. There just simply is not enough time within the dynamics of a classroom and all the interruptions. Some days, my 45 minute period was whittled down to only 20 minutes of actual useable teaching time once I was able to collect assignments, redirect behavior, get them settled in their seats, deal with lost things, the office calling in, etc. My goal in the 5-paragraph essay was to get them to formulate an opinion, express it in a workable (and understandable) thesis statement, provide 3 paragraphs to support the thesis, and then smoothly conclude their essay. The students did have to tell me where their information came from when handing in their 3 support paragraphs (some printed out the internet articles, some showed me the actual books/pages, some brought me newspapers). It was a requirement that I SEE thier sources. Again, I didn't have time to take it further. :(

 

I did not use a textbook in my classroom for grammar or literature. Although, the kids did have access to Write Source and Write Shop books which were used as teaching guides. We did not work through the entire book because I believe in more differentiated instruction than a textbook provides (both are solid writing programs when used over the years, but since this was not the case in the grades prior, they were only guides for my students).

 

I'm really interested in checking out IEW based on some of the comments in response to my posts. It sounds as if it follows the JC way of writing that I used in my clasroom which I have seen work.

 

The lacking component in my school district was there was not a consistent program used year-to-year to teach writing. So, students could not build on their skills in a logical manner. One program may not be the answer, but some sort of consistency must be maintained, and this is not a focus or a priority.

 

Schools have been touting a writing across the curriculum focus; however, you have to teach the skills within this, and that is not being done. Poor habits are formed (spelling was usually atrocious with my students), and as time moves on it becomes too "late" and overwhelming to correct the errors. The mentality has become, "Well, at least they are expressing themselves!" vs. "these kids needs skills to survive in the future". It's really sad...

Edited May 20, 2011 by jenL
thought of another thing...

[jenL]

IMO, this is exactly what I think SWB is trying to get at through her writing curriculum and audio lectures. This makes perfect sense now...first, the skill of verbalization/narration is practiced and practiced and practiced, THEN once comfortable, the student transitions those skills to the written word. As I am currently using her methods for writing, her methods are simple, yet highly effective. They really do work!! I have seen a HUGE improvement in both of my dc's writing from the fall until now, and we've been getting great results almost entirely pain free, almost. :001_smile:

 

:iagree: Her WWE book resonated with me immediately.

 

In discussing all this with you ladies, it's made me rethink my focus for next year with my son! Thank you for helping me work through my concerns and struggles which prompted my original thread in the general K-8 forum. :001_smile:

[PeterPan]

Very interesting! I looked at the Tara McCarthy books you linked to, and it seems to me that our WTM background has made us really solid already on the narrative, expository, and descriptive books. In the logic stage you start into that persuasive/opinionated stage, where there seems to be a curriculum gap, so that's the one I decided to go for. Looks fun! She had a technique of two-column journaling in one of the books that I thought would work well for logic stage. I already have my dd keep a notebook as she reads. She's dyslexic (couldn't guess by my earlier question, eh? lol), so writing chapter summaries as she goes makes a huge difference in her ability to create a good summary at the end. Some dyslexics read very well btw, in fact I'd venture to say quite a few here do. It's just that the bilaterality issues remain and the way their brains process info. So she takes the scenic route for everything and has a harder time getting it out. She has been doing comparative reading of books by Alison Weir and David Starkey on Elizabeth I, it's not like she's dumb. She's just different.

 

What usually happens is we TALK through her writing. It's very hard for her, and she resists it. She resists the chapter summaries. She resists talking through the writing assignment ahead of time. But when she DOES, the output is pretty good. However as we leave the narrative stage and are trying to get into more SYNTHESIS in the writing, more evaluation, more cause/effect, it gets harder and harder for me to keep doing that with her. I find myself in left field, making things up. Some structure would be nice. So I'm thinking that Tara McCarthy book would be a good next step. Any time I get a simple progression of skills that I can make pop, that's handy.

 

Where all this was going, I don't know, lol. Maybe it resonates with somebody. See the thing I haven't wanted to do, in looking for that structure, is to make her sausage-fill into a formulaic writing casing. With the write (haha, right) nurturing, I think she'll actually be a very good writer; her father is. I just went back and checked the preview samples they sent us of WWS, and it won't work either. So either I'm just very unrealistic, or she's just different. I find myself looking to ps/traditional school materials and yet timid at the same time, knowing they DON'T necessarily turn out good writers. It's hard to know if my use would have a better result than most other teachers are getting. To be fair though, it sounds like the problem is the background of the students, not the curriculum.

 

So what do you WISH your kids had done in 7th to be READY to write persuasive essays for you in 8th? What is the precursor skill or step? :)

 

And yes, I always grill teachers like this. I love talking with school teachers, because you get a fresh perspective. Here on the boards we get sort of inbred, with all the same ideas. We need new ones, somebody to shake things up a bit. I loved it when KarenAnne would post, because she had the most writing experience of anyone here on the boards and would say boldly what she disagreed with. We need that, because *one progression* will NOT work for all kids. Maybe it's the 2E thing. Maybe it's that it's hard but that she's bright enough to be ready for more, more synthesis or thought. So you figure if it's hard you ought to back up, when really sometimes the answer is to go forward and get to a stage of thought in the writing that fits them and let the doing improve the difficulty. Guess that's where I'm at now.

Edited May 20, 2011 by OhElizabeth

[jenL]

So what do you WISH your kids had done in 7th to be READY to write persuasive essays for you in 8th? What is the precursor skill or step? :)

 

 

:lol: This is a loaded question! I say that because the teachers in 7th would lament about what those in 6th didn't do, and they'd lament about 5th, and so on. The high school teachers would always tell us what we were not doing!

 

To try to answer it though... I guess I'd have to say, it truly depended upon which teacher they came from before entering my room. Some of the LA teachers in 7th (and earlier) did focus on writing well. I could say to the kids, "Oh, you had so & so last year, right?" because their grammar skills were up to par (or close to it). These teachers made writing a priority, and not just writing to put words on a paper, but writing as a form of clear communication. The teachers who taught or even exposed the kids to the techniques of writing from grammar, to pre-writing organization techniques, to proper paragraph development & transitions, to description, etc. They did not need to enter my room writing 5-paragraph persuasive essays because it was my job to teach that, but many hadn't been taught how to write a descriptive paragraph or a narration that was logical and interesting. The school (and the elementary schools) had curriculum within its walls to cover this. I know narrative writing was part of the 5th grade curriculum as that is where I did my student teaching. I don't know where the gaps began though, and as I said, some teachers did manage to convey the knowledge.

 

I don't agree that one formula needs to be applied in order to teach writing from the early years to the latter years, so requiring teachers to use ONE and only one curriculum/method is not (imho) the right approach. Forcing this model (as some states/school districts do) really puts kids in a box. Rather, utilizing a variety of resources (and they are out there) to teach skills allows students who are not in the "typical" box to succeed as well. I believe all kids are bright when given the potential to learn according to their style. This is not necessarily conducive to a classroom environment, as most know. I'm grateful to be able to homeschool in order to avoid the pitfalls of a classroom.

 

We had a 3" binder full of the objectives and scope & sequence for an 8th grade LA teacher. Large amounts of money were spent to create a yearly curriculum in our district, but if some teachers are focusing more on one area than another (maybe because of students' skill sets, teacher comfort, resources, etc) then gaps will definitely appear. Also, time becomes a factor since the requirements are SO extensive in theory, they do not include room for the practical elements of a classroom (behavior issues, large class sizes, varied levels of ability/prior knowledge, administrative interruptions - kids being pulled for OT/PT/Speech, guidance appts, fire drills, field trips, etc). I'm truly not sure what the answer would be to rectify all this at this point aside from a 180 degree overhaul on the entire educational system. The reliance on standardized testing has even further hindered a teacher's ability to teach the curriculum intended for each subject because they now have to focus on test skills, preparation, NCLB, and a host of other requirements so students will pass the test.

 

As homeschooling parents, I believe we need to not be afraid of starting small to work toward something big at the end. SWB discusses this in WTM and WWE. It's a parts to whole focus, leading the students slowly and consistently. I think schools want the students to jump into the end result rather than allowing them to pick up the skills in increments. Schools ask kids to be creative with their writing so that students are not hindered by their natural curiosities and imginations so they start them writing early and often. While asking the students to be creative is not inherently bad, it is when you are not providing the raw skills to communicate their thoughts. As SWB has kids do through narration and illustrating a history or science page, they are retelling, summarizing, and internalizing the small parts of communication. The illustration, not the narration, is how kids can show creativity without stifling them. Creativity in writing can flow more freely and confidently when the writing skills are developed prior to giving the students 100% freedom.

 

I'm not sure if I'm making sense anymore. :lol: I'm a bit tired today as ds2 is not feeling well and has been a bear. Hope all this helps!

 

Thank you for challenging me, OhElizabeth! I do not mind being grilled at all, and I definitely won't pretend to know all the answers. There are so many facets to learning/teaching, and how one child responds to one method may not apply to another (as you well know with your dd).

[Create Your Ritual]

I love this post.. thanks OP for asking it and JenL for all your time. I pulled my dc out last year in K and 3rd and have really enjoyed this past year.

 

To take a 7 & 9 year old and have them know nothing about grammar or parts of speech at the beginning and then 9 months later they are doing 4 part sentence analysis is astounding. My younger ds (8 now) can easily pick out where the DO or SC is and whether it's LV Predicate or AV Predicate. Not to mention all those prepositional phrases. It's like a game to them. They like to do this on paper, on the dry erase board, or on the window with window markers!

 

I am so excited to move them forward in CC (Classical Composition) next year, having come from WT1. I love that between it and WWE the content has been provided for them at these early stages of writing. ds8 said to me the other day, how proud he is when he looks over a two page story (double spaced) that he has retold. It has just freed him up to create his own version of the story and allowed him to grow in his writing ability. I don't mean to sound braggie, I just have such a sense of relief after the 'ordeal' of pulling them out last year. Had I known all SWB, the classical progym. exercises, not to mention what the other subjects had to offer, I may never have put them in PS to begin with. Sure it's a LOAD of work for me to research and plan and implement... but I can see them growing by leaps and bounds all the time. Anyway, thanks again JenL for all the info, as it's nice to hear you explain what I was feeling last year about this time as I was getting ready to make the shift over to hs.

[jenL]

I love this post.. thanks OP for asking it and JenL for all your time. I pulled my dc out last year in K and 3rd and have really enjoyed this past year.

 

To take a 7 & 9 year old and have them know nothing about grammar or parts of speech at the beginning and then 9 months later they are doing 4 part sentence analysis is astounding. My younger ds (8 now) can easily pick out where the DO or SC is and whether it's LV Predicate or AV Predicate. Not to mention all those prepositional phrases. It's like a game to them. They like to do this on paper, on the dry erase board, or on the window with window markers!

 

I am so excited to move them forward in CC (Classical Composition) next year, having come from WT1. I love that between it and WWE the content has been provided for them at these early stages of writing. ds8 said to me the other day, how proud he is when he looks over a two page story (double spaced) that he has retold. It has just freed him up to create his own version of the story and allowed him to grow in his writing ability. I don't mean to sound braggie, I just have such a sense of relief after the 'ordeal' of pulling them out last year. Had I known all SWB, the classical progym. exercises, not to mention what the other subjects had to offer, I may never have put them in PS to begin with. Sure it's a LOAD of work for me to research and plan and implement... but I can see them growing by leaps and bounds all the time. Anyway, thanks again JenL for all the info, as it's nice to hear you explain what I was feeling last year about this time as I was getting ready to make the shift over to hs.

 

You are so welcome, SaDonna! It has been my pleasure! This has also helped me review my philosophies, and it has brought me back to the core that is what led me to homeschooling in the first place. I needed that as I was becoming overwhelmed and losing the focus as to why I chose this road and why I don't feel comfortable in the classroom anymore.

 

I LOVE how your kids are doing so well in grammar! Grammar actually can be fun & that's not just because I'm an English dork. :lol: It's like a puzzle, and getting all the pieces to fit together, makes for a beautiful whole. If it is approached as a game when kids are younger, it doesn't have to be drugery, and the kids will learn it.

 

I often wonder if teachers today, who do not have a strong grammar background because it's a lost art, will gloss over it because their own fears inhibit them from having the confidence to teach it. I would have to say this truly may be the case espeically since it's not part of methodology classes when training to become a teacher. Anyway, I digress...

 

I'm so glad you are seeing success! That is awesome! :001_smile:

[Create Your Ritual]

One of their favorite things to do was The Sentence Family. We started our year with that, and then moved right into R&S English along with MCT Island. They enjoyed The Sentence Family so much, they have asked to do it again this summer. I really do think they (PS) are missing a key component when they try to just teach grammar concepts through writing. For my dc especially, to be able to make a FAMILY out of the parts of speech, and the four types of a sentences, really ingrained it in their heads. I think that is the best thing about hs it just frees you up to explore and do all these things that frankly ps doesn't have the time nor the inclination to do. Like you said, between all of the behavioral disruptions, shuffling around, in the door out the door, you might be given 20 minutes tops to write. Here, we write & do grammar for 1 1/2 hours a day. It's not drudgery... (well, they might disagree that SOME of R&S English is), but MCT and The Sentence Family had them asking to keep going. I like that we get to customize everything. It would be hard to turn it over to the ps again knowing what I know.

[Capt_Uhura]

 

A story to relate... I taught at the middle school I attended as a student. The same teachers I had in the accelerated program I was a part of still taught the accelerated students. All 3 who were still there (math, science, and social studies) would state without hesitation that the students today are nowhere near as bright, motivated, and capable as the students were when I was a 7th & 8th grader. They could talk, site examples, and provide research as to how requirements and expectations of the students have been dumbed down over the years. All of them were teaching for 20+ years when I became their colleague.

 

I have a similar story but about music. My high school had a ceremony for my band director who was retiring. I happened to be home visiting family so I went. The alumni who came for the ceremony walked on the field while the band did a marching band routine on the field. this was at half-time of the football game. After the game, we all went to a reception for the band director. I noticed that the marching band had their music on their instruments!!!! I was shocked! We were never, ever, ever allowed to have music. All music had to be memorized. All of it. Every single song. I inquired about this. He said, "Students today are very different. I don't know what's wrong with them but they can't memorize music. THey just aren't to the level that you all were." So this was about 20+yrs after I had been in high school. I don't believe that kids are fundamentally "dumber" than we were ie their brain chemistry isn't any different, their potential isn't any different. So what is it? Too many competing interests? Too much social life? Different interests? Too much pop culture?

 

 

JenL - Thank you so much for writing all that out. It really helps me to be confidant in spending the necessary time on the fundamentals.

[Capt_Uhura]

 

 

And yes, I always grill teachers like this. I love talking with school teachers, because you get a fresh perspective. Here on the boards we get sort of inbred, with all the same ideas. We need new ones, somebody to shake things up a bit. I loved it when KarenAnne would post, because she had the most writing experience of anyone here on the boards and would say boldly what she disagreed with. We need that, because *one progression* will NOT work for all kids. Maybe it's the 2E thing.

 

I miss KarenAnne! And Correllano. I love different perspectives. It makes you think, and sometimes you stay where you are and other times you move in a new direction but pondering is usually a good thing.

[Capt_Uhura]

I often wonder if teachers today, who do not have a strong grammar background because it's a lost art, will gloss over it because their own fears inhibit them from having the confidence to teach it. I would have to say this truly may be the case espeically since it's not part of methodology classes when training to become a teacher. Anyway, I digress...

 

 

I was grilling a retired teacher today. He had a child later in life and is now HSing after 30yrs in the classroom (high school language arts). He was just saying that teachers today are not trained in grammar, writing, etc. It's like the blind leading the blind.

 

My Aunt just told me that her 6th grader was just marked down by the science teacher for a subject-verb agreement error on a science paper. Her DD has no idea what a subject-verb agreement is. I gave her some resources to teach grammar this summer. My Aunt is finally seeing that she really needs to be more cognizant about what her kids are learning. She's teaching remedial math at the CC and is seeing everything you've mentioned only in math.

[Chez J]

You are so welcome, SaDonna! It has been my pleasure! This has also helped me review my philosophies, and it has brought me back to the core that is what led me to homeschooling in the first place. I needed that as I was becoming overwhelmed and losing the focus as to why I chose this road and why I don't feel comfortable in the classroom anymore.

 

Yes, I love this thread! Thank you so much for sharing your experience. It has, for me too, reinforced the core goal I have for homeschooling my daughter. It has helped to focus a laser beam on what I need to continue and where I may have strayed. Mostly I'm feeling good. :thumbup: But, I think there are some areas for improvement. Thank you for the amazon link. That series looks really interesting.

[creekmom]

I miss KarenAnne! And Correllano. I love different perspectives. It makes you think, and sometimes you stay where you are and other times you move in a new direction but pondering is usually a good thing.

 

Anyone want to post some threads of KarenAnne's or Correllano's that you saved/thought were helpful? I'm very curious now! :D

[PeterPan]

Anyone want to post some threads of KarenAnne's or Correllano's that you saved/thought were helpful? I'm very curious now! :D

 

It's not the hard to find them yourself. :)

 

Go to the top of the screen and hit search, then click Advanced Search. Now you'll be able to put in a specific poster's name. As you type, the options will appear in a dropdown menu, so you can find the exact user ID you're looking for. You have the option of having it turn up the THREADS where they posted or the individual POSTS. I suggest in this case hitting POSTS. You can even narrow it down to specific boards. Then hit go and enjoy your evening of learning. :)

[HSing...AndLovin'It]

I'm still working on reading all the posts so I don't know if this was mentioned yet, but Scholastic has the books (ebooks) that JenL mentioned on sale for $1.00. http://teacherexpress.scholastic.com/dollardeals?grade=179&p=2&product_type=269&subject=183&view=all

[PeterPan]

I'm still working on reading all the posts so I don't know if this was mentioned yet' date=' but Scholastic has the books (ebooks) that JenL mentioned on sale for $1.00. http://teacherexpress.scholastic.com/dollardeals?grade=179&p=2&product_type=269&subject=183&view=all[/quote']

 

Thanks for sharing that!!!!!! Too cool. That I can afford. You should get bumped up to Queen Bee or something. Good find!

[Chez J]

Thanks for the download link!

[Lostinabook]

Thank you for posting the Scholastic sale! When I saw what books were recommended I put them on a list for the next dollar days & thought I'd have to wait until fall!

[elegantlion]

Thank, JenL, and OhElizabeth for asking. Great Thread.

[HSing...AndLovin'It]

:iagree:And you're welcome ladies!

[coffeefreak]

I know I'm late to this thread, but I've been struggling with which direction to go on writing. I am a confident writer, and KNEW when I started homeschooling that this was one thing I was qualified to teach. Enter oldest DD:lol: I hesitate to call her a struggling writer, because she writes beautifully, when she wants to.:glare: She is an expert when it comes to Grammar. She reads the lesson (Rod and Staff), does the exercises, aces the test, and retains. She loves to write creatively, and her mechanics are beautiful. She is finally getting narration and summarizing. Where she struggles is reading a text, and writing about it. If she is asked, "What ultimately ended the Dust Bowl?" she needs the text to say, "The Dust Bowl ultimately ended because the drought ended." And it's not that she can't comprehend what she reads, because she does! Extremely well.

 

So, based on your pp JenL, would you recommend I work on one skill at a time? Is that what worked best for your students? You were saying you only graded on one skill at a time, did you do that for a while and then have the students combine all those skills into one paper?

 

I did read the whole thread, but I was a little overwhelmed by all the information.:001_smile: I just wanted to clarify.

 

Blessings!

Dorinda

[PeterPan]

Oh Dorinda, I just had to have a good laugh. They kept saying with CW Diogenes: Maxim that we should wait until 7th, that when you do it too soon the kids have NOTHING TO SAY. So I'm just looking at this dry response to your Dust Bowl question (pun intended, sorry, haha), and it seems to me that could be the cause. I mean if they're at that maturity point where they're still enjoying and not ripping apart or caring to go deeper, then they're not going to. She had nothing to say, so she said nothing. I'll bet in another year or two she just blows you away. In the meantime restructure so that it's clear what she's supposed to be using as the basis for her writing. That's why WTM has you stick to outlining, retellings, etc., even at this stage of the game. It eliminates the "nothing to say" problem.

 

On that Dust Bowl assignment, it could have been more concrete. For instance, in the book she read did it give 3 reasons the Dust Bowl ended? Find and explain them. But just to synthesize a paper from a whole nebulous topic book, that's not as likely, not without some discussion where you're basically spoon-feeding it to her, working it through in her mind with her. I think there's even a place for that. Freed (Right Brained Child in a Left-Brained World) makes the case for it in fact, and it turns out to be the method Robin Finley (of AG) uses in their materials to teach essays and the research paper. It's funny to me how much we model narration and summarizing in the early stages and then think we need to back off come time for essays and longer works. That's just been my little epiphany lately, putting those pieces together. I think we have to continue to model the skill, seemingly doing most of the work for a while, gradually handing pieces over to them, till they do it for themselves.

 

Say I who am at the same stage theoretically as you are. :)

Edited May 26, 2011 by OhElizabeth

[coffeefreak]

Oh Dorinda, I just had to have a good laugh. They kept saying with CW Diogenes: Maxim that we should wait until 7th, that when you do it too soon the kids have NOTHING TO SAY. So I'm just looking at this dry response to your Dust Bowl question (pun intended, sorry, haha), and it seems to me that could be the cause. I mean if they're at that maturity point where they're still enjoying and not ripping apart or caring to go deeper, then they're not going to. She had nothing to say, so she said nothing. I'll bet in another year or two she just blows you away. In the meantime restructure so that it's clear what she's supposed to be using as the basis for her writing. That's why WTM has you stick to outlining, retellings, etc., even at this stage of the game. It eliminates the "nothing to say" problem.

 

On that Dust Bowl assignment, it could have been more concrete. For instance, in the book she read did it give 3 reasons the Dust Bowl ended? Find and explain them. But just to synthesize a paper from a whole nebulous topic book, that's not as likely, not without some discussion where you're basically spoon-feeding it to her, working it through in her mind with her. I think there's even a place for that. Freed (Right Brained Child in a Left-Brained World) makes the case for it in fact, and it turns out to be the method Robin Finley (of AG) uses in their materials to teach essays and the research paper. It's funny to me how much we model narration and summarizing in the early stages and then think we need to back off come time for essays and longer works. That's just been my little epiphany lately, putting those pieces together. I think we have to continue to model the skill, seemingly doing most of the work for a while, gradually handing pieces over to them, till they do it for themselves.

 

Say I who am at the same stage theoretically as you are. :)

 

*MENTAL HEAD SLAP*

OF course!:lol: My DH, the other right brainer in the family, said he understands how she feels, but has no input as to how to help her. It wasn't that he couldn't write well, it was that if he wasn't interested in the subject, he simply could not write about it. He said that ended sometime in High School. Now I understand what he means.

 

So, we continue to discuss and outline, narrate and summarize. She did so well with Writing Tales, I've been lamenting over what to do next. She did not do well with WWE. I've been eyeballing CW, it's out of my comfort zone, but it's recommended after WT. I'm off to the CW thread I've been lurking on.:bigear:

 

Oh, and thanks for making me laugh at myself Elizabeth. I never see the irony in my own school unless others point it out.:lol:

[birchbark]

I miss KarenAnne! And Correllano.

 

Are they gone? :confused:

 

Great thread by the way.

[PeterPan]

*MENTAL HEAD SLAP*

OF course!:lol: My DH, the other right brainer in the family, said he understands how she feels, but has no input as to how to help her. It wasn't that he couldn't write well, it was that if he wasn't interested in the subject, he simply could not write about it. He said that ended sometime in High School. Now I understand what he means.

 

So, we continue to discuss and outline, narrate and summarize. She did so well with Writing Tales, I've been lamenting over what to do next. She did not do well with WWE. I've been eyeballing CW, it's out of my comfort zone, but it's recommended after WT. I'm off to the CW thread I've been lurking on.:bigear:

 

 

Well I'm glad you sorted it out. :)

 

As far as following up WT2, well that's a hard act to repeat. People have been talking about Classical Composition. We've done some CW Homer, struggled, flopped, and now we're going back and doing the skills our own way. Homer is definitely a bit cumbersome and going to overwhelm some kids (and parents). On the other hand, where it's going is pretty interesting. I just bought Diogenes Maxim today and had a few minutes to start looking at it. I don't know how I'll make it fit dd, who's more of the purple start peg in a square hole. We'll just see what happens. At this stage I can't figure out anything better. If I learn all I can with it and then transmit what I can to her through whatever means will work, that will have to do.

[coffeefreak]

What about WriteShop? http://www.writeshop.com/ I haven't used it yet as I'm lurking on the Logic Stage board and have a 2nd grader!

 

I am liking the looks of that! It's like a step above Writing Strands, but the same idea.

 

As for CW, I just can't do it. I just don't think it has to be that complicated. I do have Write With the Best. I could use that, and it's similar to Write Shop. Oh well, I have all summer to compare!:D

 

Blessings!

Dorinda

[Kate in Arabia]

I'm looking at programs for my upcoming 8th grader.. He did CW Aesop a couple of years ago and we tried to get into Homer but it just didn't click with us the way Aesop did. We plugged along with history narrations working in info from Kingfisher and other resources, but I'm thinking ds needs to try a writing program again.

 

I was looking at Spectrum, but I wasn't sure whether he could just jump right into the 8th grade book or start at a lower level? I was also looking at the WriteShop program mentioned above, it seems vaguely similar.

 

I suppose I'm just not sure where to go from here, and was hoping to find a program that would really flow for us, kwim?

[PeterPan]

Kate, you could try going back to Homer to see if you could get it to work for you. It might be the couple years of added maturity would make a difference. I've been going back through the prior skills with my dd, and it's really fascinating to see how much better she writes for the same tasks now, a couple years later. Maybe be a little more fearless and just get through it to be ready for Maxim by fall?

 

I hear you though on these progymnasta programs stealing the thunder from regular programs.

[butterfly113]

What a fabulous thread!!! Thanks ladies! Each time I come here I always come away with great bidbits and even great chunks of infomation and knowledge! What a blessing you all are!

[butterfly113]

the books by Killgallon??? Specifically the sentence ones...

 

:bigear: Thanks.... :bigear:

 

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=Jenny+Killgallon

[jenL]

I know I'm late to this thread, but I've been struggling with which direction to go on writing. I am a confident writer, and KNEW when I started homeschooling that this was one thing I was qualified to teach. Enter oldest DD:lol: I hesitate to call her a struggling writer, because she writes beautifully, when she wants to.:glare: She is an expert when it comes to Grammar. She reads the lesson (Rod and Staff), does the exercises, aces the test, and retains. She loves to write creatively, and her mechanics are beautiful. She is finally getting narration and summarizing. Where she struggles is reading a text, and writing about it. If she is asked, "What ultimately ended the Dust Bowl?" she needs the text to say, "The Dust Bowl ultimately ended because the drought ended." And it's not that she can't comprehend what she reads, because she does! Extremely well.

 

So, based on your pp JenL, would you recommend I work on one skill at a time? Is that what worked best for your students? You were saying you only graded on one skill at a time, did you do that for a while and then have the students combine all those skills into one paper?

 

I did read the whole thread, but I was a little overwhelmed by all the information.:001_smile: I just wanted to clarify.

 

Blessings!

Dorinda

 

Hi Dorinda!

 

Sorry for my delay in responding. I've been having some computer issues, and then I forgot to get back to you.

 

Yes, I worked on one major thing at a time with my kids - depending upon what it was, it may have been weekly or longer. From there, when I gave a writing assignment, the kids would have to cover several of the things we had been focusing on within the paper. They knew this was part of the assignment, so they knew they had to meet it when writing. I had them circle, underline, or highlight the criteria within their papers so I (and they) could hone in on the specific skills. This helped them with proofreading as well because they had to very carefully review their work to make sure they could get full credit. An example of a paper's requirments would be 2-3 complex sentences, 30 adjectives/adverbs, correct spelling, and 3 clear transitional sentences. I'm just pulling these out of my head just to give you an idea.

 

For your dd, it sounds like she needs some careful literary analysis skills. Although I can't think of any right now, there are resources to target this. Since it sounds as if she has the mechanics down, she just needs some targeting with getting the story information into written form. You could create assignments that have target points such as 3 solid examples (or quotes) from the story showing how the dust bowl ended. With this, she will have to go back into the story and pull apart the actual events to tie into the conclusion. When I needed the kids to do this, we often had them write in the books (our school had enough money to let the kids annotate in the books), while they were reading so they could readily go back and find the information for the written paper I required. Could you do this with your daughter? Or possibly create a graphic organizer/outline that has her pull apart the story further while you are reading/discussing. Then when you ask such a question, she has already torn the story apart.

 

I hope this helps. I had a late night last night, so I'm not sure I'm explaining myself well. :001_smile:

[jenL]

What about WriteShop? http://www.writeshop.com/ I haven't used it yet as I'm lurking on the Logic Stage board and have a 2nd grader!

 

Write Shop is a good curriculum, and it will definitely teach your child the skills. It's just a matter of how you want to go about it. It's more incremental in it's approach vs. an approach like CW.

 

As I research curriculum for my rising 3rd grade ds, I'm coming to the conclusion that writing can be taught if we remain consistent with it. One way is not necessarily better than the other (ie. the Write Shop approach vs. CW or WT). They will both teach a child to write, but ONLY IF we stay consistent with it. I'm thinking, but haven't decided for sure, that it may be best to choose one route & stick with it since they approach the writing process differently. However, this is not to say that you can't switch if one method isn't working.

 

What I've seen in the classroom is that kids can't write not because they are truly incapable, but because the process was never really taught to them. Kids are given journals as early as Kindergarten and told to write, but they aren't shown how to organize it, create proper sentences, spell correctly, and as a result bad habits are formed. They stay in place until about 3rd grade when paragraph skills are starting to be taught. So, instead of creating a logical flow for kids to follow, now bad habits have to be "unlearned" and that is much harder than just learning it correctly from the start.

 

Some say kids' creativity will be stunted, but I disagree. Kids can be creative while being taught the skills. I think SWB does a great job of this when the kids are required to listen, narrate, and then write all within in the confines of learning grammar at the same time. This lays the foundation for kids to tell what they heard. Some will give the exact facts, others will begin to elaborate while still providing the facts (the more creative kids).

 

I'm realizing (I think) that writing needs to be a means to an end (communication); however, not everyone is capable of of writing creatively. I don't think just anyone can become an author/creative writer. Once can enhance their writing with great adjectives/adverbs, complex sentence structure, and word organization, but they may not be able to create a wonderful story from the words. Kwim? I've been told I can write well, but I can't (and I've tried) sit down and write a story. I think sometimes we view writing as being able to do it all. I'm not sure if this is the appropriate way to approach it, and then we find ourselves becoming frustrated with our children when they cannot produce. I want my boys to be able to clearly express themselves using their individual "voices", and to do it well, but if they cannot write a creative piece such as a short story, I'll be okay with that.

Edited June 6, 2011 by jenL
added more

[jenL]

the books by Killgallon??? Specifically the sentence ones...

 

:bigear: Thanks.... :bigear:

 

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=Jenny+Killgallon

 

I've never seen these, but they look fantastic!!! I wish I could search inside one of them. I'm seriously considering ordering the elementary one to review it.

 

Using great examples of writing is such an important tool in teaching word organization and expression/voice.

 

Thanks for sharing!

[johnandtinagilbert]

This has been a great read. I couldn't agree more :) I have always despised that schools or home schoolers just magically expect a middle or high schooler to suddenly write well, with no understanding of the English grammar -- it is Just Like building a house without having ever held a hammer. I have thought that so many times.

 

Jen, you are wise to encourage consistency. That's what I see here with my gang and why I will not switch programs now. I have a solid plan for our house and even though it is the same line up for each child, the programs offer enough flexibility, and I have enough tools in my teacher's toolbox to modify as necessary.

 

The one thing I do disagree with in the SWB line-up is length of writing assignements. Am I correct to understand SWB still doesn't have 5 paragraphs until high school? Or is it at the end of middle school?

 

Write Shop offers that same sort of "use x number of adjectives" type assignments, including other portions and parts of good writing. It's something I like about the program. WS does build beautiful paragraphs!

 

Anyhoo, this has been a very reassuring thread for me. It's nice to feel like I know what I'm doing (I'm sure some child will TOTALLY throw me a wrench now just b/c I said that!) :D

[Capt_Uhura]

If you mean 5 paragraph essay, SWB said in one of her talks that she doesn't believe in teaching the 5 paragraph essay. You need as many paragraphs as you need lol. BUt I see it as a starting point. Here is a model, use it while you're learning but then progress to letting the message dictate the form.

[jenL]

If you mean 5 paragraph essay, SWB said in one of her talks that she doesn't believe in teaching the 5 paragraph essay. You need as many paragraphs as you need lol. BUt I see it as a starting point. Here is a model, use it while you're learning but then progress to letting the message dictate the form.

 

:iagree:

[johnandtinagilbert]

If you mean 5 paragraph essay, SWB said in one of her talks that she doesn't believe in teaching the 5 paragraph essay. You need as many paragraphs as you need lol. BUt I see it as a starting point. Here is a model, use it while you're learning but then progress to letting the message dictate the form.

When does she "get there"?

[PeterPan]

Remember, you can get her audio talks on writing, broken down by elementary, middle grades, and high school, for only $4 each. Here's the link. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/store/audio-products/audio-lectures.html If you haven't heard these talks yet, you WANT them. It will put any comments you read here in context.

[8filltheheart]

If you mean 5 paragraph essay, SWB said in one of her talks that she doesn't believe in teaching the 5 paragraph essay. You need as many paragraphs as you need lol.

 

I agree with her. I don't teach the 5 paragraph essay either. The only time I even encourage them to use that form is for standardized testing.