Being thoughtful about sheltering children from information

[Carol in Cal.]

So, when I was a kid, expurgated materials ruled everywhere, right up through 9th grade for sure, and I think through high school in history at least.

 

And I kept finding out to my utter surprise that there was all this s*xual material, a lot of it quite explicit, some of it just bawdy or off-color, in all literature and history. And pretty much the only place I ever saw it, oddly enough, was the Bible, but our version was KJV which gave it a certain distance. Furthermore, it was just over our heads--there was this feeling that everyone knew this except for the students. Kind of like when adults talk over your head when you're a child. And it was embarrassing, to realize that, oh, look, here's a ton of 'off' jokes in Romeo and Juliet, which I studied thoroughly and completely and wrote at least two literary papers on in 9th grade but the version of which completely left out about 1/4 of the text, most of it bawdy, in a way that over-romanticizes the whole play to a ridiculous extent. And, over there, there is an article about cave pictures, and my gosh! they are mostly not about those hunted herds of game animals after all, how about that? and what are the implications about the conclusions that we draw about that culture?

 

I mean, this is really over the top.

 

So looking back on this, I decided to do things differently in my household. I read all of even the gross stuff in the Bible to DD by the time she was 6 or 7, and although we did not discuss it in depth, she was aware of it. (OK, not Song of Solomon, but all the raunchy stuff in Judges and the Kings' narratives.) And when she studied R and J in 7th grade we discussed a few of the bawdy jokes and how interesting it is that people often talk differently with their friends than in polite society, and what are the implications of that? I went out of my way to get there first with my version of how to interpret this kind of thing, but I didn't hide it. I did censor descriptions of s*x or violence that were sort of puriant or very explicit, but not broad allusions.

 

I'm really glad I did this. At 14 she is more comfortable with this kind of material by far than I would have been at her age, she has a more well-rounded picture of history and literature than a censored one, and she is far, far better prepared to handle college classes--they won't be a complete culture shock.

 

I think that we should consider this to some extent. How much of a culture shock is college going to be for our children? I don't mean that we have to let 'anything go' but really, what are they going to do when they go to college all completely sheltered and suddenly are taught that:

 

1. All literature is pervaded by s*x, especially the classics, even the ones that they thought they knew.

2. And so is most of history and a great deal of mythology, again, even the material that they thought they knew.

3. Evolution is so accepted as fact that any alternatives are mocked to shame. This effects the teaching of earth science, geology, biology, archeology, astronomy, physics, anthropology, zoology, physiology, and even history.

4. Belief in God is thought to be delusional.

5. Social norms aren't normal here.

6. Or traditional morals either.

7. Many serious Bible scholars don't believe that there is any historical accuracy in the Old Testament earlier than the time of the prophets.

 

Are we going to shelter our kids to the point where they don't know that they will face these things, and let the chips fall where they may? Or are we going to get there first with our own versions and guide their responses from the comfort of their own homes? Are we going to let them know that yes, we are aware of this or that theory or event, and here is our take on it, or are we going to let them think that we are innocent and can't be talked with on these subjects?

 

Really, I can't see how it is good for kids to be shocked from all directions the first time they leave home. It's better that they find out this stuff from us and are prepared to deal with it.

 

Using HOAW is a tiny little step in that process. So is an unexpurgated version of R and J. So is ample discussion--that's the key. And before that key item is our own thinking about and reflecting on these issues so that we are prepared to prepare our children for them.

[LauraKay28]

Food for thought for me...thanks for posting this!

[Oakblossoms]

I have been thinking about this a lot. My oldest is probably going to a public Uni. What is HOAW?

[Harriet Vane]

:iagree: Well said.

[Carol in Cal.]

I have been thinking about this a lot. My oldest is probably going to a public Uni. What is HOAW?

 

It's SWB's ancient history book, written for adults and now recommended for high school homeschoolers. "History of the Ancient World" is the title. It contains some fairly mild s*xual references, which have been slightly controversial with readers of SOTW. I think that it's actually far less graphic than most ancient literature recommended in classical education circles, such as that recommended in Omnibus, for instance.

[Oakblossoms]

Gotcha. My brain is fried. I need a nice long summer to get back in my groove:tongue_smilie:

 

My kids are going to encounter sex. I would rather let them encounter it so we can discuss it. It has happened slowly but I feel pretty good about it. I guess I might think differently if we lived differently or had a different spouse. But, I am all about reality now.

 

I was attending a public uni in 2007. I was appalled, sad, emotional....at what those young people had to deal with and how they reacted. I hope my children can keep their faith if they decide on that route. My oldest is interested in Computer Science which elimanates the Christian College we were considering.

 

I really need to work on some worldview stuff with him. I think he needs some kind of training in logic, too. He is an Aspie ans is really "stuck" in his rightness. I worry that he will fall if he feels like he can't win.

 

Like I said My brain has shut down. I am unsure if I make any sense:tongue_smilie:

[Oakblossoms]

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/dict.aspx?word=expurgated

 

For all the other mom who have fried brains.

[Jean in Wisc]

It's a sticky wicket.

 

Some children learn about the intimate stuff and say, "Ewwww"; others are crazy about it and try to find more...such as in an internet search...hopefully not on someone's computer without a filter. Some children learn about violence and don't think any more about it; others can't sleep for 2 months.

 

Knowing when it is the right time for each child takes discernment. I, too, read the Bible to the kids quite early, but we used a children's version and then moved into the full text as they grew. I remember one of my kids asking what a harlot was, and I told him that if the cows would make the bull pay money for what he wanted, they would be consider harlots. I recall one of my sons exclaiming, "Oh, ICK!"

 

I do think it is wise to protect our young children; but I also believe that they need to have seen and heard enough not to be shocked by the time they are on their own. Classical literature opens up a lot of discussion. I recall some parents being aghast that I let my kids participate in some activities that they thought would introduce them to the "unclean" world (i.e. 4-H trips), and I, even then, argued that they needed to be introduced to this at a time in their lives that they could come back and talk to me about it.

 

Not all children are ready for it at the same age, but, yes, I agree--they need to "see the world" before they leave home.

[Crispa]

Really, I can't see how it is good for kids to be shocked from all directions the first time they leave home. It's better that they find out this stuff from us and are prepared to deal with it.

 

Using HOAW is a tiny little step in that process. So is an unexpurgated version of R and J. So is ample discussion--that's the key. And before that key item is our own thinking about and reflecting on these issues so that we are prepared to prepare our children for them.

 

Totally with you on this -- yes!

[Chris in VA]

For me it's a balance of protect and equip.

 

High school seems to me to be an equipping time. Just as I don't want to dwell on a lot of images of the purient kind as an adult, I don't want to offer that to my kiddos. On the other hand, I want them to know it's out there, and that it represents a fallen part of Mankind.

 

Oldest son was introduced to the GB's in homeschool. I was surprised Omnibus used Seutonius' work--it's full of gross examples of the decadent behavior of the Roman emperors. I would have been fine with him NOT using that--even dh was shocked, and that surprised me. I felt he needed to actually know what went on--that's part of seeing the truth and ugliness of the world. But it could, I suppose, have been avoided. I do think there's some classics we can skip--Lady Chatterly's Lover, for instance, could disappear and I'd be fine with that, as long as something else that reflected the time and ideas of that time was read.

 

Now in college, ds is more disappointed and repelled by the predominate student culture than by anything he's studying--even the R rated films he studies don't bother him as much as the humping noises next door (forgive my crudity). He sees drunk, stupid, over sexualized behavior everywhere. It is not the norm to not drink, be sexually pure, or any of that sort of thing. How do kids get there? How do they be exposed to all that yuck in our culture, from a very young age, and decide to stay out of it? I think every day exposure can wear you down, so it doesn't seem that important or shocking anymore, like seeing the news and finding yourself curiously detached from the violence.

 

It's a balancing act, I guess.

[mcconnellboys]

I've always been very matter of fact about covering that sort of stuff in the books we read, too. I may edit slightly, but I do cover it. It seems to have worked well for my older son (hoping it will for the younger, too!)

[Julie in MN]

So, when I was a kid, expurgated materials ruled everywhere, right up through 9th grade for sure, and I think through high school in history at least.

...

How much of a culture shock is college going to be for our children? I don't mean that we have to let 'anything go' but really, what are they going to do when they go to college all completely sheltered and suddenly are taught that:

 

My experience is almost the opposite of yours. It must depend on the child... and on the culture the child lives in.

 

I graduated from high school in 1976 and I was not at all surprised by s*x or by godlessness I met at the University. I might have been surprised at the godlessness in Christian colleges, I'm not sure. But even one of the high schools I went to had a class about the afterlife that was definitely not Christian. There were movies about werewolves and the mafia and vague polytheism, but almost never a mention of God. Also, I was a reader, so maybe that helped give me more personal exposure to a wider gamut. I had read books in their entirety and could check out any book I liked from the library.

 

And I think a lot of kids today have so much access to the internet and just evening television and bawdy musicians, that college will not surprise them in any of those regards, either. Even if the child is a fairly sheltered homeschooler, I would be very surprised if there are many kids who are personally clueless about the world out there?

 

As far as the culture one is raised in, my kids just need to go to any science museum or watch any science documentary or attend any public event to know that they live during the time of a strong strain of disbelief and great lack of modesty.

 

And on the opposite spectrum, as a kid I knew less about the Christians around me and their ideas than I did about secular thought. My kids also certainly know the faith of their family, but they are more likely to assume the world out there doesn't shares it at all (they might be surprised to learn that there is more faith behind the noncommittal faces they see every day than meets the eye). Raised on textbooks that taught about outdated "missing links" that were already known to be hoaxes, I consider my "sheltering" to actually be giving my homeschooled kids more of the full spectrum of thought.

 

Maybe we just live in a super-reserved tundra where our experience is at odds with the rest of the country??? But homeschooling to me is a chance to balance the culture exposure.

Julie

Edited May 1, 2011 by Julie in MN

[swimmermom3]

For me it's a balance of protect and equip.

 

High school seems to me to be an equipping time. Just as I don't want to dwell on a lot of images of the purient kind as an adult, I don't want to offer that to my kiddos. On the other hand, I want them to know it's out there, and that it represents a fallen part of Mankind.

 

Oldest son was introduced to the GB's in homeschool. I was surprised Omnibus used Seutonius' work--it's full of gross examples of the decadent behavior of the Roman emperors. I would have been fine with him NOT using that--even dh was shocked, and that surprised me. I felt he needed to actually know what went on--that's part of seeing the truth and ugliness of the world. But it could, I suppose, have been avoided. I do think there's some classics we can skip--Lady Chatterly's Lover, for instance, could disappear and I'd be fine with that, as long as something else that reflected the time and ideas of that time was read.

 

Now in college, ds is more disappointed and repelled by the predominate student culture than by anything he's studying--even the R rated films he studies don't bother him as much as the humping noises next door (forgive my crudity). He sees drunk, stupid, over sexualized behavior everywhere. It is not the norm to not drink, be sexually pure, or any of that sort of thing. How do kids get there? How do they be exposed to all that yuck in our culture, from a very young age, and decide to stay out of it? I think every day exposure can wear you down, so it doesn't seem that important or shocking anymore, like seeing the news and finding yourself curiously detached from the violence.

 

It's a balancing act, I guess.

 

I really feel for your son, Chris. I taught Art Literacy in both public and private classrooms for nine years. Early on, my kids were comfortable with nude artwork, but that doesn't mean they didn't snicker at times. We've talked about the reasons to use profanity in literature and movies. We've tried to answer questions about the tough subjects with honesty, but not too much information for their ages. If I have censored literary choices, it is primarily because they might benefit more from reading a particular work at a later age. We are fairly liberal, so dinner conversations can be eye-opening. However, I don't encourage "crude," if that makes sense. Nothing in my attempt to "protect and equip" every prepared my dd for the nearly-daily requests for s@x from male classmates or the "douche-bag" comments from the guys when they were turned down.

Edited May 1, 2011 by swimmermom3

[Mergath]

I think that we should consider this to some extent. How much of a culture shock is college going to be for our children? I don't mean that we have to let 'anything go' but really, what are they going to do when they go to college all completely sheltered and suddenly are taught that:

 

1. All literature is pervaded by s*x, especially the classics, even the ones that they thought they knew.

2. And so is most of history and a great deal of mythology, again, even the material that they thought they knew.

3. Evolution is so accepted as fact that any alternatives are mocked to shame. This effects the teaching of earth science, geology, biology, archeology, astronomy, physics, anthropology, zoology, physiology, and even history.

4. Belief in God is thought to be delusional.

5. Social norms aren't normal here.

6. Or traditional morals either.

7. Many serious Bible scholars don't believe that there is any historical accuracy in the Old Testament earlier than the time of the prophets.

 

 

Honestly, this wasn't my experience in college at all, and I went to one of those "godless" state universities with liberal professors. I majored in Lit and Anthropology, and we certainly weren't taught that all literature is pervaded by sex. Yes, the sciences do tend to teach evolution as fact due to the overwhelming evidence supporting that, but I also took elective religious studies classes that examined a variety of worldviews without mocking them or considering them "delusional." There were so many Christian clubs with tables set up in common areas you could barely get through. It wasn't the cesspool of God-hating, horny heathens that so many seem to believe.

 

Really, I think you're probably worrying a bit too much.

 

ETA: Just wanted to add that I attended from in '01, and then in '03 through '08. And I doubt things have gotten that much worse in the last three years. Well, morally, anyway. Academically, our colleges are going downhill at the speed of light, but that's a whole different thread.

Edited May 1, 2011 by Mergath

[tex-mex]

:lurk5: Interesting thread...

 

Hubs and I were discussing the same topic today. And it was a great discussion! Ironically, I volunteered today at a used book fair for my hs support group and ran into a customer asking about SOTW for her 8th grader and soon to be 9th grader.

 

I gently and politely told her there was another book by SWB -- HOAW. She was excited to hear it was a more challenging text. I did kindly tell her to be sure to preview the book before giving it to her son. (We are in a conservative Christian HS support group.) She thanked me for my advice about prereading and will look into HOAW. It was a great conversation. She loves the WTM.

[VaKim]

We can be aware that the dirt is out there without purposely going out and rolling around in it regularly. :)

[WishboneDawn]

We can be aware that the dirt is out there without purposely going out and rolling around in it regularly. :)

 

A small issue and I'm not sure it's what you meant to imply but...There's a compromise somewhere between seeing sex everywhere and considering any mention to be "dirt".

 

Song of Solomon would be, I would think, an excellent place to start with a healthy view of sex for instance. Literature that celebrates sex, connects it to to joy and life and doesn't denigrate it or reduce it to centerfolds and grunting noises.

[choirfarm]

I agree some, I suppose. I think jr high/high school is a good time to start opening their eyes. But I guess maybe I do it differently.. I do shelter them, I suppose. They are 14 and 16. We don't have cable. They don't have cell phones. They only get on the internet if I am home. I take the wireless connection with me when I leave.

 

That said, they've walked the slums in Honduras with us on a mission trip. My oldest went to Ethiopia with us when he was 13. He saw the cond-m truck. ( very brightly decorated) He was offered his first drink in the village there. ( very alcoholic drink made from their grain) Helped do VBS with kids that had no underwear or shoes. Helped his dad with a medical clinic. Listened to a very interesting discussion about female ...can't remember what the term is for it but they cut their cl---- so they can't feel pleasure. It is supposedly outlawed, but it still happens. We had to interview the villagers so he saw the inside of grass huts, shacks, all sorts of places people live.

 

So is he sheltered... perhaps in some ways according to society. But he has been exposed to much more than many American children. The boys are going with their dad to Ecuador this summer for another medical mission trip.

 

Christine

[VaKim]

A small issue and I'm not sure it's what you meant to imply but...There's a compromise somewhere between seeing sex everywhere and considering any mention to be "dirt".

 

Song of Solomon would be, I would think, an excellent place to start with a healthy view of sex for instance. Literature that celebrates sex, connects it to to joy and life and doesn't denigrate it or reduce it to centerfolds and grunting noises.

 

Yes, I was referring specifically to the immoral aspects of it (coming from a conservative Christian viewpoint). And not only s-x, but also graphic violence, etc. is included there.

[mcconnellboys]

It's called circumcision.... I'd say you're doing the same things but just in a slightly different, more hands-on sort of way than with books....

[Storm Bay]

 

I think that we should consider this to some extent. How much of a culture shock is college going to be for our children? .

 

I agree with preparing and educating our dc. The teen years are a great time to teach this with the values we believe are important. We can't control our kids' lives and need to prepare them to live successfully as adults in our society.

 

 

For me it's a balance of protect and equip.

 

 

It's a balancing act, I guess.

 

:iagree: It's important to find the right balance for each of our dc.

[choirfarm]

It's called circumcision.... I'd say you're doing the same things but just in a slightly different, more hands-on sort of way than with books....

 

Duh!! I was brain dead this morning. We probably do it with books as well. We read Gatsby and watched The Crucible several years ago. My oldest is just very susceptible to female bodies so I try to avoid nudity, scantily clothed girls in movies at all costs. Language and violence doesn't bother me nearly as much. I remember talking about how perverse the Roman emperors were. We just won't watch regular tv anymore.

 

Christine