Abecedarianmama Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 we are using Bob Jone 4, and the grammar part is great, but the papers we lose it on. He doesn't get it, doesn't want to and I end up taking a partially finished paper and moving on. Right now he is supposed to be researching a country and writing a paper with 2 sources and a bibliography. It is like pulling teeth to get even the notes done, and it looks like he'll end up with a 1 page paper. How much should he be writing and how do I encourage this more? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 we are using Bob Jone 4, and the grammar part is great, but the papers we lose it on. He doesn't get it, doesn't want to and I end up taking a partially finished paper and moving on. Right now he is supposed to be researching a country and writing a paper with 2 sources and a bibliography. It is like pulling teeth to get even the notes done, and it looks like he'll end up with a 1 page paper. How much should he be writing and how do I encourage this more? I'm trying to imagine myself at 9yo writing a paper with 2 sources and a bibliography. Alas, I cannot. Clearly your ds cannot, either. It is probably why I prefer R&S, which doesn't require work like that until dc are older and those assignments are more age approriate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greta Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 I agree with Ellie that this is an unrealistic expectation for a child that age. This weekend, I listened to SWB's downloadable mp3 about teaching writing, and I highly recommend it! I'm really excited about implementing her suggestions. I think it could give you a great framework for teaching writing easily without having to buy another curriculum. May turn out to be four of the best homeschooling dollars I ever spent! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProudGrandma Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 I agree with Ellie that this is an unrealistic expectation for a child that age. This weekend, I listened to SWB's downloadable mp3 about teaching writing, and I highly recommend it! I'm really excited about implementing her suggestions. I think it could give you a great framework for teaching writing easily without having to buy another curriculum. May turn out to be four of the best homeschooling dollars I ever spent! :D it is so funny that someone else asked this question...because I was just on my way to do the same thing. My daughter can hardly write ANYTHING beyond "The bunny rabbit is soft and furry"...and it's not because she can't...it's becasue she doesn't want to. She can talk in more details than anybody ever wants to hear about...but when she is asked to write anything down on paper, she refuses saying "I don't know what to write"...and crosses her arms and simply gives up. How can I listen to SWB's downloadable? I have never done that before. I hope it will give me some ideas becasue I am at a total loss!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProudGrandma Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 oh, by the way, what IS realistic for a 4th grader?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greta Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 it is so funny that someone else asked this question...because I was just on my way to do the same thing. My daughter can hardly write ANYTHING beyond "The bunny rabbit is soft and furry"...and it's not because she can't...it's becasue she doesn't want to. She can talk in more details than anybody ever wants to hear about...but when she is asked to write anything down on paper, she refuses saying "I don't know what to write"...and crosses her arms and simply gives up. How can I listen to SWB's downloadable? I have never done that before. I hope it will give me some ideas becasue I am at a total loss!!!! I don't know how old your daughter is, but that might actually be perfectly reasonable. :001_smile: Writing is a harder skill than we adults tend to realize. That's why I think SWB's guidelines and help suggestions make so much sense. Go to the Peace Hill Press website, and purchase the writing workshop for your dd's grade level (I think it's K-4 in one workshop, 5-8 in the next, and then high school). After you make the payment, there will be a link to click on to allow you to download it to your computer. From there, you can listen to it right at your computer, or transfer it to a device such as an iPod. Do you have an iPod and iTunes? If so, it's super easy and I can walk you through it. If not, maybe someone else can jump in and help you with whatever device/listening software you have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greta Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 If I remember SWB's guidelines correctly, a one-paragraph (4-6 sentence) narrative is the goal for the end of 4th grade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 If I remember SWB's guidelines correctly, a one-paragraph (4-6 sentence) narrative is the goal for the end of 4th grade. :iagree: The local PS here wants a 5 paragraph essay out of 4th graders, but I think that's nuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProudGrandma Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 I don't know how old your daughter is, but that might actually be perfectly reasonable. :001_smile: Writing is a harder skill than we adults tend to realize. That's why I think SWB's guidelines and help suggestions make so much sense. Go to the Peace Hill Press website, and purchase the writing workshop for your dd's grade level (I think it's K-4 in one workshop, 5-8 in the next, and then high school). After you make the payment, there will be a link to click on to allow you to download it to your computer. From there, you can listen to it right at your computer, or transfer it to a device such as an iPod. Do you have an iPod and iTunes? If so, it's super easy and I can walk you through it. If not, maybe someone else can jump in and help you with whatever device/listening software you have. my daughter is 10 1/2 years old and I don'tknow what is reasonable. I do have an ipod..so I will try to put this on my ipod...if I get stuck...I will let you know. thanks. Kathy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greta Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 my daughter is 10 1/2 years old and I don'tknow what is reasonable. What's great about SWB's workshop is that she tells you not only where your child's writing skills should/could be by a certain age, but perhaps more importantly HOW to get them there. I found it very reassuring. I hope you will too. I do have an ipod..so I will try to put this on my ipod...if I get stuck...I will let you know. thanks. Kathy Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greta Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 :iagree:The local PS here wants a 5 paragraph essay out of 4th graders, but I think that's nuts. Wow. I had classmates in college who struggled with that. :001_huh: My city's standards are so weird. On the one hand, for first grade, "developmental spelling" is considered acceptable ("I wud like to chavel in spase" is the example they give) but then they also expect first graders to be able to write short stories, journal entries, and poems that "describe, narrate, express, explain, persuade, and analyze.". :001_huh: Who comes up with this stuff??? And the sad truth is that they are graduating high school students who still can't describe, narrate, express, explain, persuade, or analyze. Maybe if they focuses on the foundational skills FIRST, and built gradually to those more complex skills, then they might be more successful? I don't know, just a crazy thought I had. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 I've seen the examples of the 5 paragraph essays on the walls, and let's just say that the school seems to value quantity of writing over quality. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Researcher Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 I've seen the examples of the 5 paragraph essays on the walls, and let's just say that the school seems to value quantity of writing over quality. ;) :iagree: This just proves what SWB has been saying for a long time. Having a child write copious amounts while young does not produce a good writer when they are in college. Unfortunately, the schools believe the exact opposite. Have them write more and they'll be great writers! :001_huh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catz Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 My city's standards are so weird. On the one hand, for first grade, "developmental spelling" is considered acceptable ("I wud like to chavel in spase" is the example they give) but then they also expect first graders to be able to write short stories, journal entries, and poems that "describe, narrate, express, explain, persuade, and analyze.". :001_huh: Who comes up with this stuff??? And the sad truth is that they are graduating high school students who still can't describe, narrate, express, explain, persuade, or analyze. Maybe if they focuses on the foundational skills FIRST, and built gradually to those more complex skills, then they might be more successful? I don't know, just a crazy thought I had. :tongue_smilie: I just think the standards for what would constitute high quality writing is WAY off. My son went to K and 1st. And kids did write this descriptive multiple paragraph "things". Most kids you could not follow or even READ the handwriting for that matter. I walked through a jr. high not too long ago and the quality of the writing up on the walls was atrocious. It was all about quantity and not quality. It did make me see value in just getting kids to put pencil to paper and just start writing even if it isn't perfect. I'm making my very perfectionist 1st grader write a sentence or 2 daily of her own thoughts with her own spelling. And it has gotten her to take off more on her own writing things. She taken to writing notes to the Easter Bunny this week. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsnapper Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 With my son who was/is also a reluctant writer, I discovered part of the reason was his fine motor skills weren't quite developed yet. So writing for him was literally hard work. I actually backed off writing much for half the year. Only requiring him to write 2 or 3 sentences at a time on his own, and for larger assignments having him dictate to me what he wanted to write. We would actually put books & papers aside to brainstorm for his writing. Having that stuff out of the way changed the atmosphere, making it less intimidating for him. His imagination would take off! Then I'd get out paper or get on the computer and have him help me remember what we'd come up with and I'd do the writing/typing. It worked great! So now at the end of our year he is less intimidated by writing, is more willing to go at an assignment. Even now he's at the computer emailing a buddy a Lego story the two boys are writing, one piece each at a time. He initiated that on his own a few minutes ago! Good luck! -Melissa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 we are using Bob Jone 4, and the grammar part is great, but the papers we lose it on. He doesn't get it, doesn't want to and I end up taking a partially finished paper and moving on. Right now he is supposed to be researching a country and writing a paper with 2 sources and a bibliography. It is like pulling teeth to get even the notes done, and it looks like he'll end up with a 1 page paper. How much should he be writing and how do I encourage this more? That is not age appropriate. Have you listened to Susan Wise Bauer's lecture on writing, focus on the elementary years? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekster519 Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 My son is a reluctant writer and has been struggling with it the past two years in public school. He is nearing the end of 2nd grade and I'm so excited about homeschooling him for 3rd grade. He has been expected to journal every day since kindergarten. I lost count of how many days he came home upset over not being able to come up with an idea for his journal. In 2nd grade, he had to do a research project including researching on the internet and in books. Then come up with a way to present it to the class. About that time, I started reading WTM and was so relieved to learn that he shouldn't be expected to do this kind of thing yet. It really gave me more confidence that I'm doing the right thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnowWhite Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 My ds did BJU English 4 this year too. The country report is the hardest one. It is done in small chunks. His was only one page long, I believe. I don't think you should worry over it being just a page. With the way the assignments are structured, with questions to answer and topics and an outline it seemed pretty simple to work up to the report. I also think you could skip this one if it's too tough. The remaining writing assignments (a business letter and some poems) are much easier. My ds types his writing assignments on the computer because he is a "techie" kid and hates writing things by hand. That might be an approach to consider if your ds is at all "techie." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest momk2000 Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 we are using Bob Jone 4, and the grammar part is great, but the papers we lose it on. He doesn't get it, doesn't want to and I end up taking a partially finished paper and moving on. Right now he is supposed to be researching a country and writing a paper with 2 sources and a bibliography. It is like pulling teeth to get even the notes done, and it looks like he'll end up with a 1 page paper. How much should he be writing and how do I encourage this more? :grouphug: I'm so sorry for your struggle. Unfortunately, I have no advice for you. We are on the same chapter in BJU 4, and I feel your pain. I also usually just take what I can get and move on with the writing. I'm thinking about trying something new for 5th to see if it will make a difference for her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Wizards Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 My 9 year old 4th grader writes 3-4 paragraphs 2 days/week. Sometimes it's a summary of what we're studying in history, sometimes a response to literature, and sometimes it's writing a story (her stories tend to be much longer as she loves to create them). On weeks where I'm not giving her a formal writing assignment, she either writes in her journal or works on her "novel," both of which she enjoys. I guess it really depends on the child. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyCamper Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 My nine year old DD and ten year old DS write research reports a few pages long. But the writing is not the best quality. DD is an enthusiastic writer; her teachers have been using Writer's Workshop. She writes all the time, e.g. proposed family weekly menu, summaries of books, outlines for rules of games. DS is a reluctant writer who has had a variety of unimpressive writing programs at school. I just bought IEW for them both to use. My dream: DS will be more enthusiastic about writing when he has stronger skills and DD will soar in quality. We shall see how it goes in reality.;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmoe Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 If I remember SWB's guidelines correctly, a one-paragraph (4-6 sentence) narrative is the goal for the end of 4th grade. :iagree: Fourth grade is a good time to teach how to write paragraphs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moniksca Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 My ds does a history and science summary each week that is a paragraph long (4-6 sentences), he does dictation 2x a week. He also has a writing assignment, which he does over several days including outline and rewrite which he types up. If he had to write it out, it would be hell for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jami Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 If I remember SWB's guidelines correctly, a one-paragraph (4-6 sentence) narrative is the goal for the end of 4th grade. That's about what we shoot for here. 5-6 sentences after they read a chapter or selection. They do this 2-3 times a week. Then we also do Classical Writing Aesop B most weeks and they have a retelling to outline and rewrite. We do dictation once or twice a week and copywork for cursive practice daily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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