Lost question - possible spoilers included

[Elisabeth in IL]

I have been thinking about Lost and I'm a little more lost then normal. :glare: Could someone explain the time difference thing. I thought the Island was behind regular time ie it took the rocket 30 minutes or so to make it to the Island from the boat. Last night though they showed the Doctor still alive on the boat even though the folks on the Island found the doctor's dead body an episode or two back. So my question... Is Island time fast, slow or fluctuating?

[abbeyej]

"Fluctuating" would be the closest of the options you've given. The island itself and people on the island (independent of the island's place in time) have a tendency move through time erratically as well.

[Elisabeth in IL]

The island itself and people on the island (independent of the island's place in time) have a tendency move through time erratically as well.

 

What do you mean by independent of the island's place in time? Can you give me an example of what you mean?

[elegantlion]

I would tend to go with fluctuating as well. Now how are they going to move that island?

[Jenstet]

You have to give me your thoughts on the Claire thing. That was Jack's dad right? So are they dead or are they in on this whole thing?

[melissel]

You have to give me your thoughts on the Claire thing. That was Jack's dad right? So are they dead or are they in on this whole thing?

 

IMO, they have to be dead, like Horace. This show is blowing my mind. I almost don't want to watch anymore! I remember how, during the second season, my DH used to laugh at me for watching...until he actually sat down to watch with me. At the end of that show, he turned to me with his mouth hanging open, and he was hooked :smilielol5:

 

ETA: Oops, never mind, I looked up my question and found I was remembering incorrectly!

[abbeyej]

What do you mean by independent of the island's place in time? Can you give me an example of what you mean?

 

Well, it appears that people on the island have a tendency to time-travel as well (perhaps even to alternate time-lines), though we don't yet know of anyone who can control this. We've seen it most clearly with Desmond, but the implication is there that it has happened with Jack, Hurley, Kate, Charlie, and more. (There's also been a lot of "I see dead people" stuff lately, that may or may not tie to the time "fluctuations".)

[Parabola]

Last night's episode was AMAZING. One of the best ones this season, and this has been a awesome season.

 

There were so many things last night that threw monkey wrenches at me. At least three times my brain went on overload!

 

For one, Richard has known about Locke since his beginning! Wow. Why? Did Richard travel in from the future to give that test to Locke? Why? Was that Locke's knife from the future, and if it was, why did that upset Richard so?

 

Also, I think Claire is dead. I can't see any other way she can calmly be sitting in a cabin without Aaron. And, how this work with the fact that Claire was told by the psychic that Aaron must not be raised by another? Hes obviously going to be, and since Jack's father was instrumental in seperating Claire and Aaron, does that mean that Jack's father (whatever it really is) is NOT a "good guy"?

 

The island, I LOVE how the island is its own character. Brilliant. When Faraday tested it with his rocket experiment, it seemed to indicate that the island was behind ship time. Right? Then the doc was found on the island before he was killed on the ship, would would indicate that the island was ahead of ship time. So it looks like island time isn't stable relative to ship (and I assume rest of world) time.

Are they now going to try to move the island in time AND space?? Or just time??

 

And I wonder if the first people Sayid puts in his raft to rescue are the Oceanic 6. And then, maybe something happens to the island, like it disappears, before he can get back and rescue more?

 

And what friggin part does Abaddon play in this whole thing???? He is PUSHING Locke to play his part on the island. Who is he?? Have we found out if he's working for some, I can't remember.

 

Great episode!

[melissel]

And, how this work with the fact that Claire was told by the psychic that Aaron must not be raised by another? Hes obviously going to be, and since Jack's father was instrumental in seperating Claire and Aaron, does that mean that Jack's father (whatever it really is) is NOT a "good guy"?

 

Well, wasn't the implication that Jack's father is also Claire's father? When she saw him in the woods that night and followed him, she called him "dad."

[Karenciavo]

And what friggin part does Abaddon play in this whole thing???? He is PUSHING Locke to play his part on the island. Who is he?? Have we found out if he's working for some, I can't remember.

 

Great episode!

 

He recruited Naomi and possibly Faraday, Lewis, Miles, & Frank. Is he working for Widmore or is he protecting the island from Widmore?

[Karenciavo]

Well, wasn't the implication that Jack's father is also Claire's father? When she saw him in the woods that night and followed him, she called him "dad."

 

It's not implied, a few seasons ago it was revealed that Claire and Jack have the same father.

[Elisabeth in IL]

Abaddon is the brother of (I can't remember his name right now.... the black guy who died in the explosion?... the "pretend" priest), Right?

[Parabola]

Well, wasn't the implication that Jack's father is also Claire's father? When she saw him in the woods that night and followed him, she called him "dad."

 

Yes, he is father to both of them, but he's dead now and I think he's something else as well.

 

He recruited Naomi and possibly Faraday, Lewis, Miles, & Frank. Is he working for Widmore or is he protecting the island from Widmore?

 

Thats right. The freighter is sent by Widmore, so I would assume that everyone on it is working for Widmore, except Michael. So, here's the big does not compute thing: if Abaddon is working for Widmore, and Abaddon is also pushing Locke to be on the island, so he can try to save the island....how does that add up? Does Locke fail and Widmore know it and think that it would play into his needs? Or does Abaddon have his own agenda?

Abaddon is the name of a demon. It would seem that this character Abaddon would not turn out to be a "good guy".

 

So I can't figure out why Jack's father (who has some connection to Jacob, or may even be an incarnation of Jacob, who may or may not be the island) who I would think would be a "good guy" seperated Claire from Aaron, which would seem to be a "bad" thing to do.

And conversely, why Abaddon who one would think is a "bad guy" is pushing Locke to the island, which would seem to be a "good" thing to do.

 

Is anyone seeing this, or am I way out on a limb somewhere?

[Parabola]

Abaddon is the brother of (I can't remember his name right now.... the black guy who died in the explosion?... the "pretend" priest), Right?

 

Mr Ecko? Is that who you mean? He was definitely a pretend priest, but he died when the smoke monster got him.

And they are no relation as far as I know.

Mr Ecko's brother was Yemi who died on the island way before Ecko got there, in a plane crash.

[Elisabeth in IL]

Mr Ecko? Is that who you mean? He was definitely a pretend priest, but he died when the smoke monster got him.

And they are no relation as far as I know.

Mr Ecko's brother was Yemi who died on the island way before Ecko got there, in a plane crash.

Thank you. It was Mr. Ecko that I was thinking about. I have totally lost my mind then, how or where does Abaddon fit in the story in the past?

[melissel]

Thank you. It was Mr. Ecko that I was thinking about. I have totally lost my mind then, how or where does Abaddon fit in the story in the past?

 

All I remember about him is that he was also the "lawyer" who visited Hurley in the institution during his flash forward.

[Karenciavo]

Yes, he is father to both of them, but he's dead now and I think he's something else as well.

 

 

 

Thats right. The freighter is sent by Widmore, so I would assume that everyone on it is working for Widmore, except Michael. So, here's the big does not compute thing: if Abaddon is working for Widmore, and Abaddon is also pushing Locke to be on the island, so he can try to save the island....how does that add up? Does Locke fail and Widmore know it and think that it would play into his needs? Or does Abaddon have his own agenda?

Abaddon is the name of a demon. It would seem that this character Abaddon would not turn out to be a "good guy".

 

So I can't figure out why Jack's father (who has some connection to Jacob, or may even be an incarnation of Jacob, who may or may not be the island) who I would think would be a "good guy" seperated Claire from Aaron, which would seem to be a "bad" thing to do.

And conversely, why Abaddon who one would think is a "bad guy" is pushing Locke to the island, which would seem to be a "good" thing to do.

 

Is anyone seeing this, or am I way out on a limb somewhere?

 

Yes, Abaddon is a demon or the personification of hell, but perhaps the writers of Lost are only using a part of what literature/mythology tells us about Abaddon, just like Charlotte S Lewis is not exactly CS Lewis and John Locke is not exactly like John Locke. I don't know how to spin Abaddon to make him good though. :001_huh:

[melissel]

Yes, Abaddon is a demon or the personification of hell, but perhaps the writers of Lost are only using a part of what literature/mythology tells us about Abaddon, just like Charlotte S Lewis is not exactly CS Lewis and John Locke is not exactly like John Locke. I don't know how to spin Abaddon to make him good though. :001_huh:

 

:w00t: How am I not seeing this stuff???

[Parabola]

Yes, Abaddon is a demon or the personification of hell, but perhaps the writers of Lost are only using a part of what literature/mythology tells us about Abaddon, just like Charlotte S Lewis is not exactly CS Lewis and John Locke is not exactly like John Locke. I don't know how to spin Abaddon to make him good though. :001_huh:

 

I can't imagine them giving the name of hell to a good guy either! :D

 

This show does blur the lines between good and bad, and there is both present in most characters, which is wonderfully realistic and so much better than concrete black and whiteness.

[elegantlion]

I am curious about the role of Chrisitian Shepherd. His name is not by chance either. I wonder if we are coming to a whole showdown between good and evil.

 

I think everyone has their own separate agenda, no one seems to be united in their cause.

[Parabola]

:w00t: How am I not seeing this stuff???

 

Because you probably have a real life with real people in it. Whereas some of us spend waaaaaay too much time dissecting the minutiae of a fictional story.

:lol:

 

 

 

PS I'm making fun of myself here, not anyone else. No offense intended.

[KidsHappen]

I agree that Claire is dead. I was expecting that already as I figured it was the only way that she would have got and stayed seperated from Aaron. If they just thought she was missing they would have left Aaron with the people on the beach who didn't make the first trip waiting for her to show up.

 

I am not exactly sure how Christian relates to Jacob but way back when they first showed Jacob's face, it was Christian. It is really hard to tell who is on the same side, who is working together and who are the good guys and who are the bad guys.

 

I am hoping that the Oceanic Six are not the only ones to get off the island. I would like to see Juliet, Desmond and Farraday get off as well. Also what is going to happen to Michael. Will he be considered one of the six, or does he quietly disappear or does he die? ANd does Jin really die or is he on the island. We know Sawyer lives because last episode Jack said he stayed on the island and Kate was talking to someone about something that she was going to do for Sawyer. My guess is something about his baby. What a heartbreak that he doesn't get the girl and there doesn't seem to be anyone else for him. And we know Juliet does end up with Jack either. What happens to her?

 

I don't know if I can handle three more years of questions. Thankfully we seem to be moving in the direction of finding some answers and some action. I will be sad when the season is over. :(

[melissel]

Well, here's a question then. Do you think the Oceanic 6 are alive, or are they dead like Hurley said in last week's episode, or are they "living" in some alternate reality?

[mommaduck]

Question: If Claire is dead, then what killed her?

 

I do have to wonder about the alternate reality thing. I'm not fully buying the Game Theory though, too simplex.

 

and they have to do WHAT to the island?! That is a shocker, but would explain why they are only able to get a few off the island. They get a few off and go back for more and.....

 

(left out some things so as not to spoil it for those that have to watch online)

[MommyX8]

No, Claire can't be dead. We haven't seen the scene of Desmond's vision where Claire and Aaron were getting into the helicopter.

[6packofun]

Question: If Claire is dead, then what killed her?

 

 

 

I don't know and it's driving me crazy!! I hope that someday all these questions will be answered. I don't like not knowing what happened to her, but I agree that she is probably dead. :confused: I am hoping that if so, she'll meet up with Charlie so we can have a sorta happy ending there.

 

They'd better have a whopper of a finale when this show reaches the end!!! LOL

[Parabola]

No, Claire can't be dead. We haven't seen the scene of Desmond's vision where Claire and Aaron were getting into the helicopter.

 

Ooooooo thats right. So either Desmond lied to get Charlie to do what Charlie needed to do (hope not), or Claire is not dead but then what is going on with her?, or something happened and changed, making Desmond's vision wrong.

 

I don't think the game theory is really whats going on either, but its a great theory nonetheless.

 

And again, does moving the island involve time and space, or just time???

[PinkInTheBlue]

Fluctuating is the only option I can come up with. Rough estimate of the ratio it took the copter to get to the boat versus the time the "islanders" thought was about 1:20. Last night the dr washed up one day and seemed to die the next. I agree; I'm more confused than ever!

[Liza Q]

No, Claire can't be dead. We haven't seen the scene of Desmond's vision where Claire and Aaron were getting into the helicopter.

 

Aaaarrgh...I forgot!

 

And I had convinced myself that Claire died when her house blew up, which is why Miles was so fascinated by her.

 

Well, I was happy with my misguided theory for a few days :001_unsure:

[OhM]

Question: If Claire is dead, then what killed her?

 

 

Did anyone else think it odd that the house blew up with her in it, and she had barely a scratch? I also thought her actions after the explosion odd.

 

But like others, I'm having trouble reconciling that with Desmond's vision!

 

Since we know Christian is (was?) dead, and now Claire's with him (the same as him, has gone with him, "in communion" with him?), I'm guessing she is in a similar state.

[KidsHappen]

No, Claire can't be dead. We haven't seen the scene of Desmond's vision where Claire and Aaron were getting into the helicopter.

 

But we know that Claire doesn't make it back. She is not one of the Oceanic Six. Also, Desmond saw Penny land on the island from the helicoptor and it was the British girl instead. He also saw Charlie die a few times which did not happen. His visions are obviously possible futures.

[Vida Winter]

Let's see...

 

Jack

Kate

Sayid

Hurley

Aaron (does he count?)

Song

 

anyone else?

[Parabola]

Let's see...

 

Jack

Kate

Sayid

Hurley

Aaron (does he count?)

Song

 

anyone else?

 

 

Thats all that makes it back as the Oceanic 6. Desmond or Michael or the scientist team of Faraday, Miles and Charlotte or pilot Frank may make it back on the freighter but still not be counted as the Oceanic 6. And we know Ben makes it off island, we just don't know how.

[Mrs Mungo]

But we know that Claire doesn't make it back. She is not one of the Oceanic Six. Also, Desmond saw Penny land on the island from the helicoptor and it was the British girl instead. He also saw Charlie die a few times which did not happen. His visions are obviously possible futures.

 

Also, we "saw" many of Desmond's visions but did we see the one with Claire or was he lying to Charlie because he thought Charlie needed to go through with it in order for Desmond to get back to Penny?

[KidsHappen]

Also, we "saw" many of Desmond's visions but did we see the one with Claire or was he lying to Charlie because he thought Charlie needed to go through with it in order for Desmond to get back to Penny?

 

 

I actuall can't remember. I am going back through the series now so I will watch out for it.

[Aubrey]

I think Claire's dead, too. Did you notice how swollen she was? Her face in particular.

 

And the other-worldliness of the way she was sitting w/ her father, who's dead, implied that, too, I thought.

 

They said that Aaron "didn't need to be there"--I think maybe instead of "separating" Aaron & Claire, Christian was saving Aaron from...whatever??

 

As far as Desmond's vision, yeah, there's the possibility he lied or that something intervened, as when the British girl showed up instead of Penny. But also, what if he saw Kate getting on the helicopter w/ Aaron, & the sunlight/shadow caused him to just assume it was Claire? Because who else would be taking a baby on a helicopter?

[Aubrey]

Also, what's up w/ Locke? Why did the Other guy get mad when he chose the knife? Why did he draw the smoke monster?

 

It's so weird/interesting how they've been after him, trying to get him to the island, since he was a baby. I mean, I bet Other Man was at the hospital to adopt him, until his mother changed her mind. And of course, we've seen "science camp" before.

[Parabola]

I'm pretty sure we never saw Desmond's vision of Claire getting on the copter with Aaron.

 

If Claire is supposed to raise Aaron, if he's not supposed to be raised by another, then I'm having trouble figuring out what Christian would be saving him from by seperating them. Unless saving Aaron sacrifices the losties and vice versa.

 

I still think we'll get an explanation whereby Desmond's vision is still correct, there's just something else at play that takes Claire off that copter. Or maybe she gets on dead? LOL. Maybe they haul her body on it or something...technically thats Claire getting on the copter. Desmond didn't specify how alive she was. :tongue_smilie: :tongue_smilie:

 

I don't want Desmond to be a liar, I like him so much.

[Parabola]

OH yeah, that Locke thing is crazy. Richard has known about him ALL ALONG.

 

Locke is "special". Was he inherently special, or did the others make him special when they singled him out? The nurse said he was a fighter, gave examples. Was Locke born a fighter like that, did he ward off the viruses, etc. himself? Or did Richard keep him safe because they had chosen this illegitimate kid who would soon be an orphan for...something?

[Parabola]

I mean, I bet Other Man was at the hospital to adopt him, until his mother changed her mind.

Wait a minute, I don't think his mother decided not to give him up, I think she went ahead and did that. Wasn't Locke raised in an orphanage and by foster parents?? I don't think that woman that had the little boy Locke in her home was his real mother.

[Liza Q]

Foster mother - that may mean that his mother would not give up her rights to him - in hope that she would eventually get her act together....so he could not have been adopted permanently by Richard Alpert - I call him Eyeliner Guy (my husband reminds me that it it GUYliner) - seriously, he wears so much makeup he reminds me of Jimmy Cagney - we've been on a Cagney kick lately and I just love him, despite the copious amounts of eye makeup he wears...

 

Anyway. Back to Lost and sentences that work (I can't even imagine editing what I just wrote!).

 

I think Claire's dead, too. Did you notice how swollen she was? Her face in particular.

 

And the other-worldliness of the way she was sitting w/ her father, who's dead, implied that, too, I thought.

As far as Desmond's vision, yeah, there's the possibility he lied or that something intervened, as when the British girl showed up instead of Penny. But also, what if he saw Kate getting on the helicopter w/ Aaron, & the sunlight/shadow caused him to just assume it was Claire? Because who else would be taking a baby on a helicopter?

Yay - now I am back to thinking that Claire died in the explosion. Not that I *want* Claire to be dead, because I like her a lot.

 

As for little Locke....my girls told me that Alpert gave him a test like the one given to little boys to determine the next Dalai Lama. Interesting.

 

And then my girls reminded me of this -

 

The real-life Dr. Richard Alpert (aka Ram Dass) is a noted psychologist and Hindu spiritualist. In 1963, he was dismissed from Harvard University for his research (in collaboration with Timothy Leary, Aldous Huxley, Allen Ginsberg and others) into psilocybin, LSD-25, and other psychedelic chemicals. He later traveled to India, where he was given his Hindu spiritual name "Ram Dass", which translates as "Servant of God". Alpert wrote of his experiences in an unusual tome entitled Be Here Now, and founded the Hanuman Foundation. See Bio and Wikipedia entry. Damon Lindelof confirmed that the character of Alpert was indeed named after a famous person. [1]

In the Season 3 DVD commentary for "The Man from Tallahassee", Richard Alpert is described as someone who is not interested in leading the Others but is very influential in finding and selecting a leader. In the commentary for "The Man from Tallahassee", he is described as being similar to a Panchen Lama choosing the next Dalai Lama. He and Ben keep each other in "check" by having the power to pick/veto each other's replacement on the Island. Ben's role would be to pick the next Panchen, should the need arise. This keeps the two in a sort of balanced power relationship. They are allies, yet they have some measure of control over the other should one get out of hand.

And then John Locke the philosopher - ok, I need to stop now. I tease my girls about being obsessed with this show and I am just as bad!!

 

Though I will mention that DarkUFO has the best Lost blog with awesome recaps and Lostpedia is a well organized site with everything for the obsessed fan.

[mommaduck]

I'm so glad I'm not the only one that the guyliner really stands out to. That was bugging me so much! WHY does that guy have so much obvious makeup on?! It's not even just the standard actor's makeup!

[Parabola]

Though I will mention that DarkUFO has the best Lost blog with awesome recaps and Lostpedia is a well organized site with everything for the obsessed fan.

 

I go to both those sites. Also lost-tv.com forums, they are the best, the people there are hilarious as well as smart and insightful.

 

 

In fact I heard another great theory there. Both Locke and John had mothers named Emily, perhaps it was the same mother?? In fact, I think in one episode Locke gave Ben a book, it was The Brothers Karamozov. If thats true, then the mother Locke met that lured him to his father so that his father could get a kidney from him, she would've had to have been an imposter hired by his dad to do just that.

 

I also heard this theory, and I'm just going to cut and paste this one from someone else's site, they explained it well. I haven't checked all the facts in it yet, though....

 

"As far as we know, Locke seems to be the only main character who did not commit something ‘bad’ before the crash. All his life, Locke seems to only have bad luck and is always polite and nice to others. Now, after being healed, retrieving and losing again his faith, Locke is only thinking about himself. The other main characters of the Losties are acting at the opposite, being nicer to others as they live on the island. While the island seems to be Hell for most of the Losties, it looks like Paradise to Locke. Locke is, indeed, special as Ben mentioned. He is the only survivor of the crash who clearly wants to stay.

 

Everytime Locke is healed someone else is hurt or dies. Plane crash: many people die, Locke suddenly can walk again. Beechcraft: Locke is suddenly weak again, Boone enters the plane and dies, Locke can walk again. Station: Locke is hurt by the safety-door, Ana Lucia and others die, Locke is fit again. Mass-grave: Locke is shot in the stomach, can’t walk, Charlie drowns, he can walk again, wounds Naomi, she dies, he is fit as ever before."

 

 

I don't know how accurate that is, does it really seem to be cause and effect that Locke seems to recover after a death on the island? Anyone know? There have been several times when Locke has seemed to be losing his ability to walk, and then gets better....but I don't know if any of them line up with anybody's death.